Feedback on the Islam forum.

dlofnep

Over my time of browsing the Islam forum, with the occasional interjection - I've noticed that the moderation team for the Islam forum are truly incapable of criticism of their faith. I've seen infractions issued for the most minor things, in an attempt to curb debate.

This is the only religious forum on boards that imposes such censorship. I've attacked Christianity left, right and centre on their forum - but they've always at least been willing to allow debate on their forum, regardless of how flattering it is to Christianity.

The polar opposite is in effect in the Islam forum, where if you make a statement - you are asked to backup the said statement, and if you do back it up with a quote from the Qur'an - you're told that you've taken it out of context, and threatened with an infraction.

Surely there is no valid objective way of studying religious texts. They are all open to interpretation.

So when a poster comes to the Islam forum, looking for advice on the pros and cons of Islam, or to address some concerns that they might have - Surely - dialogue should be open to all to engage in debate, as naturally Muslims will be protective of their faith and never intentionally highlight the negative aspects of their faith.

I think it's frankly dangerous for only one side of the debate to have a voice, while the other side is threatened and generally bullied away from voicing their opinion on the forum.

Now I'm not asking for people to start running into the Islam forum and posting 'All Muslims are scum', or anything of that nature - But what I am asking for is that the forum is reviewed, and that valid criticism be permitted to allow for a real meaningful dialogue that gives both sides of the story.

One thread in question was discussed the concerns of one poster who was worried that her homosexual brother might be outcast, after her sister married into Islam and that her role would be subservient.

When I highlighted that intolerance of homosexuality and subservience was high in Islam and that my cousin was treated as subservient in her marriage and beaten routinely, I was accused of stating that all Muslims were wife-beaters, despite the fact that prior to the accusation I had expanded on my post to clarify that I did not think that all muslims beat their wife, but rather that it was permitted to hit one's wife in Islam.

I personally feel that IrishConvert is incapable of moderating the Islam forum in a fair and balanced manner, and that the Islam forum as a whole is intolerant to valid and meaningful criticism.

I'm sure some will agree, and some will disagree - But let's at least have a debate and resolve this once and for all.

Thanks.

Eliot Rosewater

With specific respect to the thread dlofnep references I think that either the Islam forum should allow two-sided debate or it should not allow any threads which could/should be two-sided at all.

At the moment there's a troublesome middle ground whereby posters are allowed go in and ask for advise about friends and relatives who may be converting to Islam, but only responses which are favourable to Islam are allowed. Either responses which are not favourable to Islam should be tolerated or such a thread should be moved elsewhere. As it stands, anyone who sets up a thread in the Islam forum is unknowingly going to hear only one side of the story. It effectively turns the thread into an exercise in propaganda.

I think the current setup is especially troubling given some of the issues surrounding Islam. If you read the thread it is clear that Islam permits men to beat their wives. While I have absolutely no doubt that the vast majority of Muslims do not do this, anyone who has a friend or relative converting to Islam still has a right to be concerned. As it stands the Boards.ie Islam forum is failing these people by giving them a false sense of security by banning legitimate opposing views.

AckwelFoley

Personally, i wouldnt post in the forum at all. If its an Allahu Akbar circle jerk that they want as opposed to the more rational debate you suggest thats available in the christian forums.

Either way trying to debate faith and its laws is impossible

Dav

I'd like to just leave a note to say I'm actually in discussions with the mods of the forum and their CMods about how it ticks and all the rest, so its entirely possible that may result in some changes. I'm not hugely familiar with how the forum ticks, so I need to learn that first in order to make a fair assessment of it. So I'd greatly appreciate it if people kept that in mind when they post here. This isn't a thread for talking about what you agree or disagree with in terms of the Islamic Faith, this is here to talk about the Boards.ie Forum and they are two very, very different things.

So with that in mind, please carry on folks.

As an aside, dlofnep, why feel the need to "attack" anything? Why not just debate against it? Choice of language sets tone and tone sets the flow of a thread and when one party on a thread is "under attack" then they "fight back" rather than debate. Just a thought worth keeping in mind...

Hobbes

I've noticed that the moderation team for the Islam forum are truly incapable of criticism of their faith. I've seen infractions issued for the most minor things, in an attempt to curb debate.

I'm not a Muslim and it was me who moderated the thread.

The forum isn't a debate forum (in that the religions existence is not up for debate). The forum is for muslims to discuss Islam. It is also a place where anyone can enter and ask questions about Islam, and get answers that are not of the "omg all Muslims are evil" kind.

If they want those sort of posts, there a numerous other forums on boards that suffice, and you will find many such posts.

The forum is not for people who have an issue with Islam. It is like in big letters in the charter.

If you do have a beef with Islam, you can still post there. But you need to word your responses so they do not antagonize others. The muslims are not on trial in the forum. There have been a number of posters who are anti-Islam that post/respond in the forum and are capable of remaining within the charters rules.

By the same token, if someone comes back with a response about the religion that is anathema to you, that is where you leave it.

As per the usual posts I have done today, feel free to pick parts of my post apart looking for some thing to justify imaginary persecutions. I won't be responding further. As continually repeating the obvious appears not to work (+already flagged for admins to look at).

FlutterinBantam

Hobbes wrote: »

I'm not a Muslim and it was me who moderated the thread.

The forum isn't a debate forum (in that the religions existence is not up for debate). The forum is for muslims to discuss Islam. It is also a place where anyone can enter and ask questions about Islam, and get answers that are not of the "omg all Muslims are evil" kind.

If they want those sort of posts, there a numerous other forums on boards that suffice, and you will find many such posts.

The forum is not for people who have an issue with Islam. It is like in big letters in the charter.

If you do have a beef with Islam, you can still post there. But you need to word your responses so they do not antagonize others. The muslims are not on trial in the forum. There have been a number of posters who are anti-Islam that post/respond in the forum and are capable of remaining within the charters rules.

By the same token, if someone comes back with a response about the religion that is anathema to you, that is where you leave it.

As per the usual posts I have done today, feel free to pick parts of my post apart looking for some thing to justify imaginary persecutions. I won't be responding further. As continually repeating the obvious appears not to work (+already flagged for admins to look at).

Very considered response moderator, a forum like that can only serve to expand our view and dispel some of the myths surrounding the faith, whilst at the same time providing a platform for those seeking information .

Of course you will always get single issue punters,and blinkered individuals who cannot see the big picture outside their own narrow outlook, and unfortunately ruin the discourse and exchange for those who genuinely want to debate.

They are here already:(

jhegarty

Dav wrote: »

As an aside, dlofnep, why feel the need to "attack" anything? Why not just debate against it? Choice of language sets tone and tone sets the flow of a thread and when one party on a thread is "under attack" then they "fight back" rather than debate. Just a thought worth keeping in mind...

I think the problem is that anything that isn't pro-islam is considered an attack, even if it's a response to a valid a question with a proper answer.

dlofnep

Dav wrote: »

As an aside, dlofnep, why feel the need to "attack" anything? Why not just debate against it? Choice of language sets tone and tone sets the flow of a thread and when one party on a thread is "under attack" then they "fight back" rather than debate. Just a thought worth keeping in mind...

Semantics really. I feel the need to attack religion, because it directly interferes in the affairs of others. I can 'attack' the politics of a party, I can 'attack' the ideology of a movement (KKK for example). It is only religion that has been afforded this protective bubble to distance it from criticism. Attack/Debate - it's the same thing really.. You have someone defending a position, and someone attacking a position - which results in debate.

dlofnep

Hobbes wrote: »

The forum isn't a debate forum (in that the religions existence is not up for debate). The forum is for muslims to discuss Islam. It is also a place where anyone can enter and ask questions about Islam, and get answers that are not of the "omg all Muslims are evil" kind.

Nobody stated that all Muslims are evil. Infact, I've been a vocal supporter of many Muslim related issues. If the forum isn't for creating debate, then posters can be spoon-fed on Islam, without hearing objective counters from those who oppose Islamic doctrine.

Hobbes wrote: »

If they want those sort of posts, there a numerous other forums on boards that suffice, and you will find many such posts.

So what you are saying is that Muslims should have a protective bubble, where their faith cannot be discussed and critiqued - while all other religious forums on boards allow for a much broader scale of debate?

Hobbes wrote: »

The forum is not for people who have an issue with Islam. It is like in big letters in the charter.

And that is what this thread is here to discuss - to open up the forum so that posters can hear two sides, before passing judgement.

Hobbes wrote: »

If you do have a beef with Islam, you can still post there. But you need to word your responses so they do not antagonize others. The muslims are not on trial in the forum. There have been a number of posters who are anti-Islam that post/respond in the forum and are capable of remaining within the charters rules.

I'm not particularly anti-Islam, I have a grievance with all religion. If Muslims feel antagonized, then they can report the said post - like any other forum on boards.

Hobbes wrote: »

As per the usual posts I have done today, feel free to pick parts of my post apart looking for some thing to justify imaginary persecutions. I won't be responding further. As continually repeating the obvious appears not to work (+already flagged for admins to look at).

I take issue with you asserting that passages of the Qur'an are taken out of context. You certainly are not the infallible authority on Islamic doctrine. So If I state that Islam allows for a man to beat his wife, and places the female as a subservient member of a relationship - You shouldn't threaten posters for highlighting it and telling us it has been taken out of context. Engage in debate by all means, and give us your subjective view as to why you feel it is taken out of context. That makes for a much more valid, and sensible means for debate.

nesf

I think the fundamental question is whether religion forums are allowed to restrict content to that only positive about their religion or not. The Islam forum is by far the strictest when it comes to this among the religion forums.

I'll be honest, I'm not entirely comfortable with this stance but it's not my call here. I can and will investigate cases where the mods are acting unfairly but I cannot rewrite a charter on a whim.

Penn

Hobbes wrote: »

I'm not a Muslim and it was me who moderated the thread.

The forum isn't a debate forum (in that the religions existence is not up for debate). The forum is for muslims to discuss Islam. It is also a place where anyone can enter and ask questions about Islam, and get answers that are not of the "omg all Muslims are evil" kind.

If they want those sort of posts, there a numerous other forums on boards that suffice, and you will find many such posts.

The forum is not for people who have an issue with Islam. It is like in big letters in the charter.

If you do have a beef with Islam, you can still post there. But you need to word your responses so they do not antagonize others. The muslims are not on trial in the forum. There have been a number of posters who are anti-Islam that post/respond in the forum and are capable of remaining within the charters rules.

By the same token, if someone comes back with a response about the religion that is anathema to you, that is where you leave it.

As per the usual posts I have done today, feel free to pick parts of my post apart looking for some thing to justify imaginary persecutions. I won't be responding further. As continually repeating the obvious appears not to work (+already flagged for admins to look at).

This is the part which worries me to be honest. I was always under the impression that every public forum was for everyone to discuss the topic of the forum, regardless of what their opinion on the topic is, so long as they followed standard Boards guidelines and the forum charter. But I don't think any forum charter should be saying that the forum is only for XXXXX to discuss the topic.

I've received numerous PMs in the past asking why we allow people who don't generally believe in conspiracy theories and who spend most of the time disproving theories to post on the forum. It's because it's unfair for someone to not be allowed to post because their own opinions or beliefs are different. So long as they stick to the charter like every other poster has to, they should be allowed to discuss the topic too. I don't see how any forum should be for XXXXX to discuss a certain topic, it should be for anyone to discuss the topic so long as they remain respectful.

I don't see why any religion forum should be allowed to impose these rules whereas the others don't. I agree that the regulars of the Islam forum shouldn't have to constantly put up with abuse.... but as with every forum, if someone comes in and starts posting abuse, ban them.

Orion

Hobbes wrote: »

The forum isn't a debate forum (in that the religions existence is not up for debate). The forum is for muslims to discuss Islam. It is also a place where anyone can enter and ask questions about Islam, and get answers that are not of the "omg all Muslims are evil" kind.

This is the crux of the problem. Any "omg all Muslims are evil" posts should of course be deleted but why not allow critical debate about the religion? It's a forum and all opinions should be accepted. In the thread in question posters were infracted for honestly answering the OP. And while these posts may have been construed as anti-Islam they were not non-factual and thus did not deserve the infractions received.

imo this forum is moderated zealously. It should not purely be for muslims to discuss Islam - there are plenty of arenas for that. It should be an arena for Islam to be discussed ... full stop. If that means critical posts of the religion then so be it. Flaming and trolling should be dealt with with extreme prejudice of course - but that should not preclude criticism of the religion. If believers cannot handle criticism then they should just back off.

irishconvert is extremely intolerant of opposing views of Islam. Hobbes, isn't too far behind despite not being muslim and just enforces the charter. I don't think this forum can be 'fixed' easily. It needs heavy moderation because of anti-muslim sentiment but must allow opposing opinions. A complete overhaul of the forum is needed that will allow debate and opposition.

Hank_Jones

There seems to be a few problems with regards this.

The Islam forum (and religion) is most likely viewed in this country as a minority.
We should probably understand that the ratios of Muslims to Catholics/Atheists etc is quite substantial.

Every forum allows discussion regarding the subjects in question though,
I fail to see why Islam should gain a pass with regard to this.

The Christianity forum discuss elements that are questioned with regards this,
I fail to see why certain "questions" should not be "welcomed" in the Islam forum.

The vast majority of people on these forums are looking for honest debate and to interact with others and understand.
Seems apprehensive that this isn't allowed.

Personally, I have always thought of boards as somewhere that was forward thinking and allowed discussions that weren't forthcoming in other domains.
I would hate to see that change.

Rev Hellfire

Perhaps what's needed is one or two super threads in the forum to deal with the confrontational topics brought up against Islam.

There are ones in both the Atheist and Christian forums so that contentious issues can be dealt with while allowing the main body of posts not get derailed with the same topics time and time again.

Its a logical solution that seems to work quite well in other similar forums.

Doctor DooM

Hobbes wrote: »

I'm not a Muslim and it was me who moderated the thread.

The forum isn't a debate forum (in that the religions existence is not up for debate). The forum is for muslims to discuss Islam.
As per the usual posts I have done today, feel free to pick parts of my post apart looking for some thing to justify imaginary persecutions. I won't be responding further. As continually repeating the obvious appears not to work (+already flagged for admins to look at).

I'm just going to leave what I have already said here (just in case you think it's me picking your post apart- it's not, I believe it's the route cause of the problem. And it is a problem, when it's one rule for some and another for others).

I think part of the overall problem (and I am a keen watcher, if not frequent poster in the religious forums) is that other forums accept if not even encourage a healthy debate with their opposite numbers (for example, dead one is right now posting in A + A his opinions, the opposite of which is not allowed).

It's even more complicated when you consider another forum which contains a "reviled" religion at the moment (the Christianity forum, they have some Catholic posters in there and the amount of abuse being thrown that way site wide is huge) encourages a huge amount of interaction with non Christians (thanks to the sterling work of PDN and Fanny). When you consider to people outside of both these faiths they appear to be roughly similar, I can see where the confusion arises.

As for my personal opinion... it does seem... anthithetical to Boards that in the Christianity forum they are not even allowed have a "Christian responses only" thread (I believe that was passed down from an Admin) whereas you've just said basically that the Islam forum is JUST for Muslims. I was under the opinion that no public forum on Boards was for any "type" of person.

EDIT: This isn't meant as a personal attack... it's just, can't you see why this is always going to be a continuing issue?

Wibbs

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Perhaps what's needed is one or two super threads in the forum to deal with the confrontational topics brought up against Islam.

There are ones in both the Atheist and Christian forums so that contentious issues can be dealt with while allowing the main body of posts not get derailed with the same topics time and time again.

Its a logical solution that seems to work quite well in other similar forums.

+1

dlofnep

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Perhaps what's needed is one or two super threads in the forum to deal with the confrontational topics brought up against Islam.

There are ones in both the Atheist and Christian forums so that contentious issues can be dealt with while allowing the main body of posts not get derailed with the same topics time and time again.

Its a logical solution that seems to work quite well in other similar forums.

The problem I have with this is that it sweeps criticism under the carpet in the form of a single thread, that curious parties might never look at, and if they do - they might have to trawl through pages of discussion to find something that they are interested in.

I think discussion should be open on all threads - and the said threads moderated like any other forum on boards. The difference between the Christian forum and what you have outlined is that, even though there is a thread geared for contentious issues - in most cases, debate and discussion is still allowed in all threads.

I'm for full and open debate in all threads.

Wolfe Tone

I think its grand, its a forum for Muslims to talk about Islam. They shouldn't have to defend themselves constantly, or have their religion attacked all the time, I dare say the number of people who would post if the rules were changed to slag off or rip into Islam would be far greater than the number of Muslims on the forum.

If you want to attack it just post in the Atheist forum. This site is a big one, I'm sure if people want an alternate view on Islam the obvious place to seek one would be the atheist forum.

If the approach dlofnep wanted was adapted there would be little scope for real discussion among Muslims, it would just be irishconvert defending his religion. I think a zero tolerance approach is the good one to take.

I've asked a few questions on the forum and I never had any problem.

Destroyer666

Dont feel sorry for them, while I know a few Muslims and they are nice people they really cant handle any form of critisism at all. For instance they are very quick to debate catholic issues and the likes when questions are put in there direction from my mates its you dont understand Islam you are ignorant etc, so what can you say to them then. Ill bet if they were on a Christian forum it would be a different matter doubt anybody would ban them or anything of the sort. Im immune to all religion so Im not talking sides but at least you can slag Catholics or Christians in good spirt without worrying about repercussions.

biko

Being strictly anti-religious I agree with Hobbes, there is a need for a forum where the participants doesn't have to spend their time defending their religion but instead can discuss issues that concern believers.
Same goes for Christianity forum.

If anyone wants to attack religious beliefs there are other boards forums for that.

nesf

biko wrote: »

Being strictly anti-religious I agree with Hobbes, there is a need for a forum where the participants doesn't have to spend their time defending their religion but instead can discuss issues that concern believers.
Same goes for Christianity forum.

If anyone wants to attack religious beliefs there are other boards forums for that.

Shouldn't that not be a private forum though advertised in people's signatures?

I mean we have the exact same situation in Politics with Republicans. It's impossible for Republicans to have a chat about Republican issues without someone sticking their oar in and attacking the entire movement. The solution: a private forum with strict access conditions that gives Republicans a place to discuss stuff in peace.

Hobbes

dlofnep wrote: »

The problem I have with this is that it sweeps criticism under the carpet in the form of a single thread,.

If you have a community forum, where people are allowed to attack that communities beliefs, what you end up with is a community left with attackers.

Who wants to stay in a community where they are continually attacked? I certainly wouldn't.

dlofnep it is quite clear from your history on the forum (warnings/bans/posts over the years) that you do not like Islam. That is fine. What is not fine is trying to push that agenda against people who do not agree with you.

Which is why you were continually asked to use another forum if you wanted to push that agenda.

[edit] a previous moderator from years ago explains it better.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=52958944&postcount=184

Infront wrote:

The Islam forum is there to... discuss Islam - the difference of opinion with regard to any given topic would be coming from the differing schools of thought within Islam. It's about putting forward Islamic theories and saying "well this sheikh says x", "this imam says y", "so looking at both I think...xyz"

I can't imagine it was set up so that some people would come in and say "hey Muslims, what makes you believe all of that holy stuff, that's rubbish?". If someone isn't interested in listening to an Islamic teaching (and agreeing or disagreeing) or on the Muslim perspective of something (and agreeing or disagreeing), I'm not sure why they'd post in there. That's why the charter makes it clear that it's not for Muslims to have to defend the faith. As someone said earlier, there's lots of other forums where people can and do say what they want about Islam.

dlofnep

Hobbes wrote: »

If you have a community forum, where people are allowed to attack that communities beliefs, what you end up with is a community left with attackers.

The Christianity forum seem to be doing just fine.

Hobbes wrote: »

dlofnep it is quite clear from your history on the forum (warnings/bans/posts over the years) that you do not like Islam. That is fine. What is not fine is trying to push that agenda against people who do not agree with you.

Hold up a second - I'm not pushing an 'agenda'. I'm voicing my 'opinion'. Would you say that Muslims in the Islam forum are 'pushing an agenda'? Doubtful, so please don't make it as if I have some sort of conspiracy against Islam. I dislike all religious doctrine, and as such wish to voice my objections against it. Boards.ie has always been the beacon of progressive discussion, and the Islam forum seems to be the only forum on boards that actively prohibits it.

Hobbes wrote: »

Which is why you were continually asked to use another forum if you wanted to push that agenda.

Why should I use another forum to discuss Islam? Why are some posters offered a pedestal to preach about Islam, while others are swept under the carpet because they might have vocal objections to some of the doctrines of Islam (Or indeed, any organised religion).

I can go into the boxing forum and criticise boxers, I can go into the Christianity forum and criticise the actions of the Church, I can go into the music forum and criticise a band, the palaeontology forum and criticise the theory of t-rex being a scavenger - But when it comes to criticising Islam, there is a special exception where all criticism is threatened with infractions.

So it's moot if I'm a vocal opponent of Islamic doctrine and organised religion in general - My opinion is as valid, as any other on the topic.

Tom Dunne

dlofnep wrote: »

Semantics really. I feel the need to attack religion, because it directly interferes in the affairs of others. I can 'attack' the politics of a party, I can 'attack' the ideology of a movement (KKK for example). It is only religion that has been afforded this protective bubble to distance it from criticism. Attack/Debate - it's the same thing really.. You have someone defending a position, and someone attacking a position - which results in debate.

I'm sorry, but it's not semantics. If I have learned one thing from this site, it is that language used sets the tone of the discussion, especially on a text based medium like this.

You can robustly debate matters without resorting to outright confrontation and hostility. Given the emotive issue that is any religion, this is especially important.

If you have a community forum, where people are allowed to attack that communities beliefs, what you end up with is a community left with attackers.

Who wants to stay in a community where they are continually attacked? I certainly wouldn't.

Absolutely agree 100%. This should never be the situation on Boards.ie. However, you have a certain percentage of the population who view all types of religion with contempt, and Islam is no different in that manner. We, as moderators/cmods/admins have to manage these people with all the tools available to us.

dlofnep

Tom Dunne wrote: »

I'm sorry, but it's not semantics. If I have learned one thing from this site, it is that language used sets the tone of the discussion, especially on a text based medium like this.

You're dwelling on a single word, when there's a much more important debate to be had. I already explained my intention of the word 'attack'. Let's assume that we will 'robustly debate' issues - The problem with censorship still exists.

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Absolutely agree 100%. This should never be the situation on Boards.ie. However, you have a certain percentage of the population who view all types of religion with contempt, and Islam is no different in that manner. We, as moderators/cmods/admins have to manage these people with all the tools available to us.

And we have that right to treat religion with contempt. The same way many within the religious community treat homosexuals with contempt, women who dress inappropriately with contempt, those who do not adhere to a specific doctrine with contempt. Why exactly should we not voice our views, provided it's in a constructive and sensible manner?

What exactly is it that religion has that excuses it from criticism? What special position has it been afforded that allows it to say 'It's ok to beat my wife under certain circumstances' - But not for us to say 'I treat such a view with contempt'?

Wolfe Tone

So you want to go into a religious forum and detail how you have contempt for that religion?

dlofnep

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

So you want to go into a religious forum and detail how you have contempt for that religion?

If a specific doctrine is being discussed and I find it contemptible, then yes - I want the opportunity to express my view on the matter. Perhaps you'd care to explain why I shouldn't be afforded that opportunity, when it exists in every other forum on boards.ie, including other religious fora.

Tom Dunne

dlofnep wrote: »

You're dwelling on a single word, when there's a much more important debate to be had. I already explained my intention of the word 'attack'. Let's assume that we will 'robustly debate' issues - The problem with censorship still exists.

I am dwelling on one point because it is important.

dlofnep wrote: »

And we have that right to treat religion with contempt.

We all do, of course. However, on this site, you have whatever rights those in charge deem appropriate. And you must abide by them.

dlofnep wrote: »

Why exactly should we not voice our views, provided it's in a constructive and sensible manner?

I have no problem with that.

dlofnep wrote: »

What exactly is it that religion has that excuses it from criticism? What special position has it been afforded that allows it to say 'It's ok to beat my wife under certain circumstances' - But not for us to say 'I treat such a view with contempt'?

I am not getting into the details of the wife beating argument, that is a thread and a topic that has proven to be quite emotive and is not for discussion on the Feedback forum.

However, I do not agree that religion is excused from criticism. However, the Islam forum is for discussing Islam. As Dav has alluded to, there are plenty examples across the site where there is a pro-topic bias, so it is not unusual. Just as women need to feel they can post in the Ladies Lounge with a bias towards women, Muslims should feel the same about the Islam forum.

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

So you want to go into a religious forum and detail how you have contempt for that religion?

I agree. I do not see the logic of this.

dlofnep

Tom Dunne wrote: »

However, I do not agree that religion is excused from criticism. However, the Islam forum is for discussing Islam.

Yes - and I never said it was not for discussing Islam. But what many aspire to see, is that the pros and cons of Islam are discussed. If boards.ie want the Islam forum to be purely for only posts in favour of Islam to be permitted, then fine - I will adhere to it.

Tom Dunne wrote: »

As Dav has alluded to, there are plenty examples across the site where there is a pro-topic bias, so it is not unusual. Just as women need to feel they can post in the Ladies Lounge with a bias towards women, Muslims should feel the same about the Islam forum.

I can't think of one other forum on boards that has the levels of intolerance to criticism that the Islam forum has. Of course there will be a bias in favour of the said topic in all forums, but all allow varying levels of criticism. That's the difference.

I'm not attempting or seeking to change the Islam forum into a forum purely to bash Islam - What I am seeking is that if a controversial topic arises, that we are allowed to debate it, without being threatened with infractions.

Tom Dunne wrote: »

I agree. I do not see the logic of this.

You don't see the logic of being afforded the opportunity to criticise a religious doctrine?

-Chris-

You need two forums:

Information about Islam
Open Discussion of Islam

Hobbes

-Chris- wrote: »

You need two forums:

Information about Islam
Open Discussion of Islam

- Islam Forum.
- Any other forum, like AH, Humanities, politics, etc.

dlofnep

Hobbes wrote: »

- Islam Forum.
- Any other forum, like AH, Humanities, politics, etc.

Or, permit all sides of discussion in the Islam forum - like is afforded in the other religious fora. And just incase you think I'm being disingenous:

Christianity

Criticism on Clerical Child abuse: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055855692

The issue of Gay Marriage and children: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056339115

Mass debate on creationism: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=316566

dr.bollocko

My concern from reading recent threads on there that have come to light.
In any situation where there is a question of tacitly implying that domestic abuse is an option, even as a last resort, that is just beyond the pale. Unacceptable.

Wibbs

Tom Dunne wrote: »

I am not getting into the details of the wife beating argument, that is a thread and a topic that has proven to be quite emotive and is not for discussion on the Feedback forum.

Why not TD? It does have some bearing on this discussion. It's the elephant in the room. A forum were some of those who post there, including a moderator of said forum... well Dr B put it better than I could: "In any situation where there is a question of tacitly implying that domestic abuse is an option, even as a last resort, that is just beyond the pale". And no religious doctrine or interpretation of texts should be an excuse on this website. Beyond th pale indeed.

Just as women need to feel they can post in the Ladies Lounge with a bias towards women, Muslims should feel the same about the Islam forum.

I agree actually. My take is if they or any other religious(or non religious) group want a place for themselves that doesn't contravene the Boards ethos I say go for it. If you don't like the faith, or don't like that they have a place just for them then don't post in their forum. Simple as. There are enough other places where you can post agin it on Boards and question their intelligence so knock yourself out. Rocket science it ain't.

However in this case for me the important part is in bold above. If say one of the Ladies Lounge regulars came along and suggested it was OK as a true feminist in certain circumstances to beat men, she'd be slapped with a warning if not a ban so fast and we wouldn't be handing out red cards to those who cried foul. We've warned, infracted and banned women from the forum for overt chauvinism before. We as mods certainly wouldn't be defending their right to say it and neither would the cmods or admins. Tacitly suggesting and therefore approving in the minds of some spousal violence would or should be against the Boards ethos in any forum.

Adyx

Hobbes wrote: »

- Islam Forum.
- Any other forum, like AH, Humanities, politics, etc.

How is Politics a suitable forum for discussing Islam? A thread in AH would most likely be locked (rightly so).

If there's going to be discussion on Islam it should be in the Islam forum same as Christianity and A & A. Moderate it strictly all you want to deal with the muppets with an agenda, but to not allow any debate is ridiculous.

Wibbs wrote: »

I agree actually. My take is if they or any other religious(or non religious) group want a place for themselves that doesn't contravene the Boards ethos I say go for it. If you don't like the faith, or don't like that they have a place just for them then don't post in their forum. Simple as. There are enough other places where you can post agin it on Boards and question their intelligence so knock yourself out. Rocket science it ain't.

What if someone simply wants a genuine and polite discussion on the Muslim faith? The Islam forum apparently isn't the place for this either.

Wibbs

Adyx wrote: »

What if someone simply wants a genuine and polite discussion on the Muslim faith? The Islam forum apparently isn't the place for this either.

To be fair, I would say in the beginnings of the forum that might have been the case at times, but in the last couple of years I've very rarely if ever seen genuine and polite discussion get any mod attention in there.

EG I got banned from that forum back in the day for questioning the historicity of the Quran and search away if you like I was being polite and gave links to scholarly/non nutjob anti Muslim sites as backup. I seriously doubt I'd get banned even warned for similar today. Would I post a similar subject today? No. Little point. I'd either get "context" or "no you're wrong" and it would go nowhere and since Muslims consider as first principle the origins of their holy book could cause upset. Life's too short for that and I can if I wish post the same subject in the A&A or history&heritage forums without getting a rise from the locals to no good end. Id take the same view with Christianity or any of the spiritual forums outside of A&A. Like I said so long as a forum follows the general ethos of Boards.ie then leave them to it. I only raise an eyebrow when it may step across a line. For me spousal abuse is one such line.


PS

Adyx wrote: »

How is Politics a suitable forum for discussing Islam?

Well Islam is viewed in the west as a political faith with some truth in that, plus it's also a political football in discussions on the ME and the world at large, from the so called "War on Terror!!", "clash of civilisations!!" to immigration. It certainly has a political angle.

Fuhrer

dlofnep wrote: »

Or, permit all sides of discussion in the Islam forum - like is afforded in the other religious fora. And just incase you think I'm being disingenous:

This is the problem really, because the charter of the forum is skewed towards protecting Muslims in it, you cant even correct anyone who is quite clearly lying without Hobbes giving you an infraction.

Wibbs

With religion one mans lie is another mans context or root of faith. Hard line to draw and I for one don't envy them the task.

humbert

If it's only for a specific group to express biased views it should surely be a private forum. Otherwise members of boards should be allowed to disagree in a fair and unprejudiced manner.

If the problem was really people going to that forum to attack Islam and express prejudice then surely that's exactly what moderation is for. In cases rife with contention a system such as the one in the soccer forum could be implemented.

Therefore, I believe the problem is that people give fair, relevant unprejudiced answers to questions which many members of that forum/faith find unpalatable. Therefore you get the situation where the moderation of the forum has to be openly biased in favour of the prevailing opinion of it's members at the expense of open debate and more importantly visitors receiving unbiased information.

If the forum is public for people to ask questions about Islam but does not allow them the privilege of receiving unbiased answers I don't it should be a public forum.

Also, in this form I don't think it does any good for the view of Islam in Ireland. That will always require open debate IMO.

nesf

Wibbs wrote: »

PS Well Islam is viewed in the west as a political faith with some truth in that, plus it's also a political football in discussions on the ME and the world at large, from the so called "War on Terror!!", "clash of civilisations!!" to immigration. It certainly has a political angle.

The political angle would be welcome in Politics but that's it. A thread on Islam generally would get locked or moved.

Wibbs

Oh certainly N, the faith aspect would have zero place in the politics forum. I meant subjects like political structures in an Islamic state(Caliphate etc), how that would gel in a general political discourse. How political laws might differ etc, how democracy would operate in such a system. Outside of the direct faith bits the culture is probably the most political as attached and a part of a religious belief. There are long descriptions of the political as well as the god part in the texts.

humbert wrote:

If it's only for a specific group to express biased views it should surely be a private forum. Otherwise members of boards should be allowed to disagree in a fair and unprejudiced manner.

I take your point H, but if you do that then you better do similar with a whole heap of other forums. All specialty forums are "biased" to some degree. EG Try starting an anti blood sports thread in the Hunting, Shooting or Angling forums, a cycling thread in motors, a why Dublin is a city and Cork isn't in the Cork forum *, a homeopathy thread in Health sciences forum etc. I don't see why the Islam forum should be any different if the local community wishes that. I only take issue if something in such a forum crosses the line of the ethos of Boards as a whole.



*runs from people screaming "we'll kill ya bai!!"

Orion

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

So you want to go into a religious forum and detail how you have contempt for that religion?

It's not a religious forum - it's a forum about a religion. Take the thread that started this debate - the OP was concerned about a family member converting and asked for opinions. But the only opinions allowed are pro-Islam. If that's going to be the case then the thread should be moved out of that forum; but to where? It's the obvious place to ask a question about the religion but, based on opinions in this thread, is most definitely the wrong place if you want an honest debate.

On Christianity debate is allowed. On A&A debate is allowed. Why is Islam different? As I said earlier criticism is part and parcel of being religious. imo Muslims need to grow a thicker skin and allow debate about their religion instead of stifling it.

Scofflaw

On balance, I agree with the view that the Islam forum has the right to draw a line that excludes regular attacks on Islam - as others have said, all the rest of Boards is there for that. The only reason for wanting to be allowed access to the Islam forum in particular to do so is for the pleasure of rubbing one's dislike in their faces - or of forcing them to confront one by entering into their 'safe haven'. I don't call that "honest debate", really.

Many forums have a dividing line of such a kind - as Wibbs has pointed out. Going into the Soccer forums in order to say that soccer is a sadly over-rated game with really stupid rules, or into the HSA forums to say that blood sports are disgusting, or into Sustainability to say that Greens are deluded yoghurt-worshipiing freaks - all of these are soapboxing or trolling. And wanting access to a religion forum in order to express your distaste for it - well, if I hung around threads in the Motoring forum in order to express my dislike of cars and car users, I would quite rightly be regarded as trolling, because I'm basically there to derail any enjoyment that people might get out of a discussion of motoring, because I'm personally opposed to it. If I hung around tLL to air misogynistic views, I'd be booted out in short order. And in Politics, we boot out those who are unable to distinguish between politics and conspiracy theories.

In that sense, religion only gets the same free pass as other subjects - because all forums draw the line at participants who fundamentally disagree with the basic premise on which the forum is founded. In turn, that's because such posters turns the forum into a demolition derby whenever they reach a critical mass - and the critical mass is not all that large. A minority of insistent posters who disagree with the basic premise of the forum is quite sufficient.

So I support the right of the Islam forum to draw a line and say "you need to respect Islam" - not "support Islam" or "be Muslim", but respect Islam as having the right to its own views despite your personal objection to some or any of those views. And I support the view that nobody has to post in a particular forum, and that nobody has any inalienable right to do so.

What that doesn't provide, however, is somewhere obvious for criticism to go. Nor does it necessarily imply that all criticism should be eliminated, or that if all criticism is being eliminated, that the forum charter draws the line in the right place. I don't have a problem with fundamentally anti-Islamic posters being ejected, or the posters whose very first post immediately tells you that they have zero respect for Islam's right to be Islam. I do have a problem if it is simply impossible to express an opinion critical of Islamic practice in any way at all - and I am aware, of course, that a poster who comes in only to say how disgusting Islam is believes whole-heartedly that he is merely expressing such an opinion.

cordially,
Scofflaw

dlofnep

Scofflaw wrote: »

So I support the right of the Islam forum to draw a line and say "you need to respect Islam" - not "support Islam" or "be Muslim", but respect Islam as having the right to its own views despite your personal objection to some or any of those views.

Respect the forum in the sense of being cordial when debating? Absolutely. Respect the doctrine of Islam? Absolutely not.

Scofflaw

dlofnep wrote: »

Respect the forum in the sense of being cordial when debating? Absolutely. Respect the doctrine of Islam? Absolutely not.

No - respect the right of Islam to hold its own doctrines, and the right of people to hold such doctrines because of their faith, despite your dislike of those doctrines.

However, you raise a point which urgently needs consideration, which is where, for example, Islamic doctrine conflicts with the law of the land. In the case of the domestic violence question, for example, beating your wife is not acceptable in Ireland, and is not legal in Ireland. It is irrelevant, therefore, what Islamic law or doctrine says on the question, because no matter what it says, beating your wife is illegal, and for boards.ie mods to condone or support illegal acts is something that needs to be entirely ruled out as a possibility.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Orion

dlofnep wrote: »

Respect the forum in the sense of being cordial when debating? Absolutely. Respect the doctrine of Islam? Absolutely not.

We differ on this dlofnep. If you're posting on the Islam forum you should be respectful of Islam. You can disagree and be critical while still being respectful. That's the line that a lot of people cross and it has led to over-moderation of the forum.

I'm an atheist myself. I disagree with the basic premise of all religions. But I respect their existence and their believers. Where I have a problem with religious people (and religions) is when they a) shove their beliefs down my throat or b) define any critical comment as anti-<insert religion here>. Muslims in my experience are very guilty of b) and the Islam forum is not atypical.

dlofnep

Orion wrote: »

We differ on this dlofnep. If you're posting on the Islam forum you should be respectful of Islam. You can disagree and be critical while still being respectful. That's the line that a lot of people cross and it has led to over-moderation of the forum.

I never stated to not be respectful when debating. I stated to be cordial in the post you've just quoted, so I'm not sure where you are coming from.

dlofnep

Scofflaw wrote: »

No - respect the right of Islam to hold its own doctrines, and the right of people to hold such doctrines because of their faith, despite your dislike of those doctrines.

I think you're conflating the issue. Respecting the right of someone to hold certain views, and holding respect for a religious doctrine are two different things. I have no problem with anyone of faith, so long as it does not interfere in my life and is not counter to local law. But I do not respect a religious doctrine that permits the beating of one's wife, and orders death on those who commit apostasy, or one which outcasts the homosexual community. Nobody has the right to tell me to respect such a doctrine.

Scofflaw

dlofnep wrote: »

I think you're conflating the issue. Respecting the right of someone to hold certain views, and holding respect for a religious doctrine are two different things. I have no problem with anyone of faith, so long as it does not interfere in my life and is not counter to local law. But I do not respect a religious doctrine that permits the beating of one's wife, and orders death on those who commit apostasy, or one which outcasts the homosexual community. Nobody has the right to tell me to respect such a doctrine.

I don't think I am conflating the two. Islam exists, and Islam holds those views. I'm not suggesting that you have to find those views respectable in themselves, but you won't change them by arguing in the Islam forum, the more so because none of those things are legal in Ireland, but also because Islam will continue to hold those views despite your arguments. Irish Muslims are, I'm pretty sure, well aware that those views can find no practical expression in Ireland without running into the law - could it be made more plain that Ireland has no respect for those doctrines in themselves. So what are you arguing for? Your personal right to express your dislike of those views?

cordially,
Scofflaw

dlofnep

Scofflaw wrote: »

So what are you arguing for? Your personal right to express your dislike of those views?

Yes, and my right to challenge the teachings of the Qur'an and indeed, any religion. Do you find something objectionable with that?

Wibbs

Free speech(tm) and free expression is bloody brilliant and I'll defend it til the cows come home, but along with that comes the responsibility of knowing when to express oneself and when not to. If one is out to prove a point that's usually an indicator to think about the latter. This goes double for religions or anything that deeply heartfelt. Like I say we've a number of forums where we can go WTF? with some of the dafter stuff in any faith system, so I reckon it's good manners to let those within that faith system regulate discourse along the lines of their community. If one religous group is game ball with more strident debate then fine, if another isn't then that's fine too. So long as the ethos of the site is respected. This is the point where it did cross a line in this case. It shouldn't negate the original point IMHO.