"No" to CIE union monopoly at Dublin Airport

darkman2

I am completely against any attempt to have DART run to the airport before either Metro North or a Tram link. Ever been waiting for a bus at the airport? Ever been infuriated at the fact that everytime the bus to town arrives the driver gets out and has a 20 minute to 30 minute break while the tourists employees and customers are left standing in the pissing rain? Ever not have the bus leave on time or the bus breakdown (this happened to me only 2 weeks ago - you should have seen the look on the faces of the tourists as we were all transfered to a bus from Ballymun with the usual fcuking scumbags at the back drinking and fecking litter up and down the bus - they were even more impressed with the fact the bus broke down on the Swords road)? Of course shoddy service we expect from Dublin Bus. No one is supprised by that. It is run for the employees - not the customers. But why introduce another CIE union vehicle like DART to cement that service at the airport? The DART is just as shoddy a service as the bus. Do you really believe IE are going to go all out competing against Dublin Bus or vice versa? This is another disaster in the making and should not be allowed to go ahead. We need a fixed line private competition at the Airport. Then our buses will leave on time, clean and with impressed tourists.


We don't need a replica of the contemptible service of Dublin Bus that is there atm.

teol

Bus Éireann works well at the airport. When AirCoach started operations at the airport, BÉ freaked out and increased the number of inspectors stationed at the airport to make the operation run more smoothly and to direct more passengers to their buses.

woodseb

and the non-CIE Luas service does not have scumbags on it?:D

LXFlyer

What a rant!

I suppose private operator vehicles never ever break down either? That does unfortunately happen from time to time, but mercifully not that often. I can't see what that has to do with "unionised monopolies"?

Indeed the fact that there were "the usual fcuking scumbags at the back drinking and fecking litter up and down the bus" - is that Dublin Bus fault? I suspect that is more a society problem and reflects negatively on the city as a whole rather than Dublin Bus.

As for buses arriving and the driver "a 20 minute to 30 minute break while the tourists employees and customers are left standing in the pissing rain" - I very much doubt they are going for 30 minute breaks - neither the 747 nor 16a schedules are that generous. If however, the bus does arrive maybe 15 minutes before it's due to go back out I do not see an issue with a driver stretching his legs and going to the shop for example. Indeed it is probably a good thing to do from a health and safety perspective - having been sitting down driving for lengthy periods (as he could be - buses are allowed typically a minimum of 90 minutes from Nutgrove to the Airport).

But no, instead you turn it into an anti-CIE monopoly rant.

Aircoach, Flybus and URbus all provide private operator options at Dublin Airport along with numerous other private long distance operators. No one forced you to take a Dublin Bus service.

n97 mini

OP does have a point (my own experiences of DB at the airport aren't 100%) but the best solution is to build the DART to the airport, but break up CIE. I'd be campaigning for both of these.

Run_to_da_hills

Iarnrod Eireann are probably saving the 8200 Dart units for this route.

angel01

lxflyer wrote: »

What a rant!

I suppose private operator vehicles never ever break down either? That does unfortunately happen from time to time, but mercifully not that often. I can't see what that has to do with "unionised monopolies"?

Indeed the fact that there were "the usual fcuking scumbags at the back drinking and fecking litter up and down the bus" - is that Dublin Bus fault? I suspect that is more a society problem and reflects negatively on the city as a whole rather than Dublin Bus.

As for buses arriving and the driver "a 20 minute to 30 minute break while the tourists employees and customers are left standing in the pissing rain" - I very much doubt they are going for 30 minute breaks - neither the 747 nor 16a schedules are that generous. If however, the bus does arrive maybe 15 minutes before it's due to go back out I do not see an issue with a driver stretching his legs and going to the shop for example. Indeed it is probably a good thing to do from a health and safety perspective - having been sitting down driving for lengthy periods (as he could be - buses are allowed typically a minimum of 90 minutes from Nutgrove to the Airport).

But no, instead you turn it into an anti-CIE monopoly rant.

Aircoach, Flybus and URbus all provide private operator options at Dublin Airport along with numerous other private long distance operators. No one forced you to take a Dublin Bus service.

What are Dublin Bus doing to stop the drinking, smoking, littering, loud music blaring then? my guess would be... nothing. They think the answer is blare out a smoking warning every now and then.. really effective :rolleyes:

These days the buses are so knackered out, they do break down a lot. Personally, I will only get an aircoach to and from the airport, least you can sit in comfort

LXFlyer

angel01 wrote: »

What are Dublin Bus doing to stop the drinking, smoking, littering, loud music blaring then? my guess would be... nothing. They think the answer is blare out a smoking warning every now and then.. really effective :rolleyes:

These days the buses are so knackered out, they do break down a lot. Personally, I will only get an aircoach to and from the airport, least you can sit in comfort

Well did the OP complain to the driver - he can't necessarily see what they are doing.

If he did then the driver should first advise them over the PA system to stop, and then if that doesn't work, then call control to get either inspectors or the gardai. The driver is not allowed leave the cab of the bus.

But I'm guessing the OP didn't do that.

As for the buses breaking down a lot, I'd have to say that as a daily commuter I've only had it happen to me once in the last 12 months and that was due to loose chippings cracking the windscreen!

The oldest buses in the fleet are 12 years old now - hardly "knackered".

How many buses have broken down that you were on in the last 12 months exactly?

corktina

do BE AND DB both operate to the airport...?

LXFlyer

Yes - Dublin Bus operate the 16a, 41, 102 and 747 services.

Bus Eireann now have:
1 Dublin - Airport - Newry - Belfast and return
2 Airport – Dublin – Arklow – Gorey – Enniscorthy – Wexford – Rosslare Harbour and return
4 Dublin Airport – Dublin – Carlow – Waterford – Dungarvan and return
12 Dublin - Portlaoise - Roscrea - Nenagh - Limerick and return
X20/20 Dublin - Dublin Airport - Athlone - Ballinasloe - Galway and return, valid until 10 September 2011
X20/20 Dublin - Dublin Airport - Athlone - Ballinasloe - Galway and return, new timetable effective 11 September 2011
22 Dublin – Airport – Mullingar – Longford – Ballina and return
23 Dublin – Airport – Mullingar – Longford – Sligo and return
30 Dublin - Airport - Cavan - Enniskillen - Donegal Town - West Donegal and return
32 Dublin - Dublin Airport - Monaghan - Letterkenny and return
33 Dublin - Dublin Airport - Monaghan - Omagh - Derry and return
100X Wilton Terrace – City Centre – Airport – Drogheda – Dundalk and return
101 Dublin - Airport - Balbriggan - Drogheda and return
101X Wilton Terrace - Drogheda - Termon Abbey
109 Dublin - Dunshaughlin - Navan - Kells - Virginia - Cavan town and return
109A D.C.U. - Airport - Ratoath - Dunshaughlin - Navan
133 Dublin Airport – Dublin – Ashford – Wicklow
177 Dublin - Airport - Ashbourne - Ardee - Monaghan - Clones and return

devnull

I think the problem is that many people are going to be cynical of the reasons behind the airport DART link being wanted for CIE, I honestly believe there is commercial motivation behind the reason for doing so, namely to compete with the Aircoach routes to Dalkey and Greystones.

Right now I see no need for a DART extension to the airport. I think we should be concentrating on much of the city which has much poorer transport links, and to me linking the DART to the airport is not really going to be as beneficial as other possible projects.

The likes of improving our rail infrastructure as has been suggested here in the past few weeks to provide higher linespeeds , providing better services in West Dublin which has quite a limited rail service and no LUAS, should be deemed more important at the moment.

Of course CIE would be much happier with an Airport DART link than the Metro North, because quite simply they would be running it whilst the later may not be run by them. We do need to improve public transport in this country, however we need to look at the bigger picture rather than through CIE rose tinted spectacles.

Also it's worth saying some of the 2000 issued vehicles are in a bad state mechanically, only this morning driving into work I saw the triangle behind two of them on Finglas Road, although saying thaty it is exceptionally rare to see such vehicles in such area as when I used to get the bus it was much newer vehicles on the 40s. To be fair though I'e not ever noticed a problem with the 16A from the airport or the 747, but I've rarely got them.

I really think if we're going to have such a system the Metro North would be the way to go, it will open up far more possibilities than the Airport DART will.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

As for buses arriving and the driver "a 20 minute to 30 minute break while the tourists employees and customers are left standing in the pissing rain" - I very much doubt they are going for 30 minute breaks - neither the 747 nor 16a schedules are that generous. If however, the bus does arrive maybe 15 minutes before it's due to go back out I do not see an issue with a driver stretching his legs and going to the shop for example. Indeed it is probably a good thing to do from a health and safety perspective - having been sitting down driving for lengthy periods (as he could be - buses are allowed typically a minimum of 90 minutes from Nutgrove to the Airport).

I've pointed this out in the past and I see others agree.

I've stood there in the rain, watching a DB 16a parked 15 meters away for 15 minutes. I've watched tourists look at it in confusion and walk towards it in the rain only for the driver to point them back to the bus stop.

It looks really bad and unprofessional and gives a bad first impression of Ireland and DB.

Ideally the buses should be parked out of sight (don't know if there is room for that) and only pull up when ready to board.

Also there should be RTPI displays at Dublin Airport.

CIE

We need a fixed line private competition at the Airport

You certainly won't get that with the Metro. The RPA's also a state agency.

n97 mini

bk wrote: »

Ideally the buses should be parked out of sight (don't know if there is room for that) and only pull up when ready to board.

Ideally customers should be able to board the bus and sit down as soon as they arrive at the bus stop.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

I've pointed this out in the past and I see others agree.

I've stood there in the rain, watching a DB 16a parked 15 meters away for 15 minutes. I've watched tourists look at it in confusion and walk towards it in the rain only for the driver to point them back to the bus stop.

It looks really bad and unprofessional and gives a bad first impression of Ireland and DB.

Ideally the buses should be parked out of sight (don't know if there is room for that) and only pull up when ready to board.

Also there should be RTPI displays at Dublin Airport.

I don't honestly think there is space for it unfortunately, given the layout - I agree that it doesn't look great, but at the same time going on a rant alleging this is about unionised monopolies is unfair - if you were driving a bus/car for 90 minutes I think you would want a short break too?

The issue to me sounds more like DAA not providing somewhere that the bus can lay over till its due to depart rather than drivers taking unofficial breaks on purpose to annoy passengers.

The airport is going to get RTPI - remember this is still only being rolled out and is probably only halfway there yet.

darkman2

bk wrote: »

I've pointed this out in the past and I see others agree.

I've stood there in the rain, watching a DB 16a parked 15 meters away for 15 minutes. I've watched tourists look at it in confusion and walk towards it in the rain only for the driver to point them back to the bus stop.

It looks really bad and unprofessional and gives a bad first impression of Ireland and DB.

Ideally the buses should be parked out of sight (don't know if there is room for that) and only pull up when ready to board.

Also there should be RTPI displays at Dublin Airport.

+1 - Agree completely. I get the bus regularly through the airport (16a). Everytime, no matter what time of day it is, the bus pulls up - tourists move to get on - driver closes door and walks off. It is embarrassing for the international airport of a capital city in Europe. And it does piss people off big time when it is freezing cold and raining. For tourists to have to witness that (Dublin Bus know us natives are use to it and just accept it) as soon as they get off the plane is not acceptable. Atrocious first image. And don't get me started on the Swords road - the state of it! It's literally third world stuff. Potholes everywhere and no lines left. If we want to take tourism seriously someone somewhere needs a kick up the ass because it is not working. I like to say to myself if I was a tourist here what would I think? I doubt I would be coming back.

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

Ideally customers should be able to board the bus and sit down as soon as they arrive at the bus stop.

So a driver who has been driving for 90 minutes plus should then not be entitled to a short break before commencing the next journey when he is not yet scheduled to depart?

bk

CIE wrote: »

You certainly won't get that with the Metro. The RPA's also a state agency.

Yes, but doesn't involve CIE unions and would be operated by the private company.

n97 mini wrote: »

Ideally customers should be able to board the bus and sit down as soon as they arrive at the bus stop.

While better then standing in the rain, it can also be annoying if the bus then sits there for 15 minutes.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't honestly think there is space for it unfortunately, given the layout - I agree that it doesn't look great, but at the same time going on a rant alleging this is about unionised monopolies is unfair - if you were driving a bus/car for 90 minutes I think you would want a short break too?

Oh I was only talking about the specific point on how it looks, nothing about unions or drivers deserving breaks, which they clearly do.

lxflyer wrote: »

The issue to me sounds more like DAA not providing somewhere that the bus can lay over till its due to depart rather than drivers taking unofficial breaks on purpose to annoy passengers.

Agreed

lxflyer wrote: »

The airport is going to get RTPI - remember this is still only being rolled out and is probably only halfway there yet.

My point is it should have been one of the first places to get it.

LXFlyer

devnull wrote: »

I think the problem is that many people are going to be cynical of the reasons behind the airport DART link being wanted for CIE, I honestly believe there is commercial motivation behind the reason for doing so, namely to compete with the Aircoach routes to Dalkey and Greystones.

Right now I see no need for a DART extension to the airport. I think we should be concentrating on much of the city which has much poorer transport links, and to me linking the DART to the airport is not really going to be as beneficial as other possible projects.

The likes of improving our rail infrastructure as has been suggested here in the past few weeks to provide higher linespeeds , providing better services in West Dublin which has quite a limited rail service and no LUAS, should be deemed more important at the moment.

Of course CIE would be much happier with an Airport DART link than the Metro North, because quite simply they would be running it whilst the later may not be run by them. We do need to improve public transport in this country, however we need to look at the bigger picture rather than through CIE rose tinted spectacles.

Also it's worth saying some of the 2000 issued vehicles are in a bad state mechanically, only this morning driving into work I saw the triangle behind two of them on Finglas Road, although saying thaty it is exceptionally rare to see such vehicles in such area as when I used to get the bus it was much newer vehicles on the 40s. To be fair though I'e not ever noticed a problem with the 16A from the airport or the 747, but I've rarely got them.

I really think if we're going to have such a system the Metro North would be the way to go, it will open up far more possibilities than the Airport DART will.

But then again you see everything as DB/IE/BE trying to outdo private operators. For crying out loud, they were asked to do it by the Minister. But yet you have to then say that it is to try and put Aircoach out of business.

Look at your posts on the 238 changes where you said it and the proposals for the 41a were trying to put Urbus out of business yet before any of the changes took effect Urbus slashed their schedule of their own volition.

I think sometimes these sort of posts are better off in the Conspiracy Theory Forum.

-Chris-

So from the bus point of view, the main things that would solve this issue is for the DAA to provide a sheltered place for people to wait, for the DAA to provide a bus parking area out of the sight of passengers so the buses can be parked up when not being used, and for RTPI to be implemented?

Would that solve 90% of the bus-related issues?

bk

Yes

LXFlyer

Which would mean that all of those specific points raised by the OP are not the fault of DB which he/she clearly suggested they were.

n97 mini

lxflyer wrote: »

So a driver who has been driving for 90 minutes plus should then not be entitled to a short break before commencing the next journey when he is not yet scheduled to depart?

Some of the customers have been travelling for up to 24 hours beforehand, and also deserve a break. I don't believe the driver should be able to lock out customers

n97 mini

lxflyer wrote: »

Which would mean that all of those specific points raised by the OP are not the fault of DB which he/she clearly suggested they were.

OP also has a problem with more unionised transport joining the already ample unionised transport options at the airport, choking out private operators. And then it only takes one Brendan Ogle to bring the whole lot to a standstill.

-Chris-

n97 mini wrote: »

Some of the customers have been travelling for up to 24 hours beforehand, and also deserve a break. I don't believe the driver should be able to lock out customers

Because if they let them in to the bus they'll then have to babysit them, and won't get the break.

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

Some of the customers have been travelling for up to 24 hours beforehand, and also deserve a break. I don't believe the driver should be able to lock out customers

Whether they are or not doesn't reduce the right of the driver to a break.

I think you'll find that all the private operator drivers there take a break too.

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

OP also has a problem with more unionised transport joining the already ample unionised transport options at the airport, choking out private operators. And then it only takes one Brendan Ogle to bring the whole lot to a standstill.

There are plenty of private operators at Dublin Airport as it is, and I don't think that they are/will be choked. As I said above the Minister asked IE to do this.

I'd also take issue with you - yes there was a problem in Harristown a few years back (but it got no support from the rest of the company), but apart from that when was the last time there was a strike in any CIE group company?

Dublin Bus is engaged in a complete and fundamental redesign of their network and have we heard any suggestions of a strike or disruption?

People tend only to remember the negative experiences without remembering the vast number of times things actually worked!

devnull

lxflyer wrote: »

I think sometimes these sort of posts are better off in the Conspiracy Theory Forum.

At least I didn't have to resort to shilling and then registering a new username when I couldn't take the heat anymore. But then again, you're a new member aren't you?

In any case comments like the above are not helpful, especially considering the announcement at the top of the forum which was calling for everyone to be civil. But you don't see me attacking your posts like that as I realise this is a discussion forum.

Also if you want to know the full story about the 238 I suggest you phone Eirebus and also look at the history of the 236/8 service between Tyrrelstown and Blanchardstown SC.

Dublin Bus claimed that there was no demand for an hourly service between Tyrrelstown and Blanchardstown Shopping centre for years and no demand at all for the weekend service, yet suddenly when Urbus started operating on the route Dublin Bus decided there was a market for both an hourly service and a weekend service alongside the urbus one but 2 months earlier there was no demand - what a co-incidence.

The introduction of the hourly 238 Dublin Bus service in competition with the hourly Urbus service to replace the infrequent 236 service eroded away Urbuses passengers, and the recent change makes the routes even more similar as it now goes down Blanchardstown Road, the same as the Urbus does.

Urbus then turned around and with the latest changes happening, thought it was the final nail in the coffin and decided to cut the route back the day after the DB changes as they knew they were fighting a losing battle.

I'm sorry if you don't see it this way, but the actual residents of the areas which have lost out on a regular link to the airport are very unhappy with this behaviour. No doubt before long the 238 will be cut back also, if it is not I give DB their fair dues, but if it is then it was obvious what the gameplan was.

The difference is that some posters on here want a better public transport system. We don't want infighting between operators and people trying to do each other out of business. If I was so private operator focused and wanted to protect Aircoach so much, I would be against Metro North. I'm not,

I'm very much for Metro North and Metro West as I believe these would benefit areas that have poor public transport. The Airport DART link doesn't do that, it provides competition along some of the routes, and links in the DART line to the airport. The Metro North would link up Ballymun and many of the countries existing infrastructures together - something the city badly needs.

Aircoach and other companies may lose a lot of pax from the city centre due to Metro North, thats something they have to take for the good of the country IMHO, but thats the thing, I don't think the DART airport link is in the best interests of the country, I totally see why CIE want to do it, any commercial company would admire their visions as it has sound commercial footing. However at the same time the argument for a publicly own transport system is it is run for the people of this country. A Metro North link would be a step in the right direction for this country, the Airport DART link would be the kind of decision that public companies moan is the very worst of the private owned transport sector.

devnull

lxflyer wrote: »

I think you'll find that all the private operator drivers there take a break too.

I think what is fundamentally being said is that at all times there is an inspector at Dublin Airport DB stops, like there are at Aircoach stops and normally Aircoach will load up selling tickets from their desks near the coach stops and passengers will board before the driver is in the bus and ready to go - why can Dublin Bus not do something like this - they have the inspectors there and they have the staff to do it, as they have people wandering the city centre streets trying to flog city tours and airlink tickets, so why can they not have someone selling tickets at the stop and letting pax board, the driver can still have his break?

-Chris-

devnull wrote: »

lxflyer wrote: »

I think sometimes these sort of posts are better off in the Conspiracy Theory Forum.

At least I didn't have to resort to shilling and then registering a new username when I couldn't take the heat anymore. But then again, you're a new member aren't you?

Can you both stop the sniping please.

n97 mini

-Chris- wrote: »

Because if they let them in to the bus they'll then have to babysit them, and won't get the break.

I take issue with your choice of words. These are paying customers, not babies or children, or anything else.

The drivers could get off their buses and stretch their legs if they had a ticket seller who would sell tickets to customers, which would in turn allow them to board the buses and take their seats.

lxflyer wrote:

I'd also take issue with you - yes there was a problem in Harristown a few years back (but it got no support from the rest of the company), but apart from that when was the last time there was a strike in any CIE group company?

Brendan Ogle organised a group of workers in the CIE group which prevented me from getting to work or made my commute hell on a number of occasions. Of course I'm going to remember it!

darkman2

-Chris- wrote: »

Because if they let them in to the bus they'll then have to babysit them, and won't get the break.

I don't object to breaks at all. But there seems to be a "break" of 20 - 30 minutes every time a bus pulls in to Dublin Airport. Can anyone explain that to me? How many breaks are those drivers getting a day does anyone know because I have not witnessed that in any other city I have been to around the world. Really I haven't.

-Chris-

n97 mini wrote: »

I take issue with your choice of words. These are paying customers, not babies or children, or anything else.

The drivers could get off their buses and stretch their legs if they had a ticket seller who would sell tickets to customers, which would in turn allow them to board the buses and take their seats.

Luckily the airport busses don't seem to encounter "the usual fcuking scumbags at the back drinking and fecking litter up and down the bus" that the OP encountered when he transferred onto the bus from Ballymun, so maybe only some bus routes need babysitting, while other passengers/routes can be trusted to act in a civilised fashion.

I would suggest it would be prudent though, for insurance reasons as much as property damage reasons, that buses shouldn't be left unattended with passengers aboard.

Also, it'd be common I'd expect for a tourist on the bus to wonder to themselves "I wonder if this is the right bus", and leaving them unattended with no one official to put the question to, is potentially poor service.

So while the passengers in question may not need babysitting, they certainly need supervision & attention.

-Chris-

darkman2 wrote: »

I don't object to breaks at all. But there seems to be a "break" of 20 - 30 minutes every time a bus pulls in to Dublin Airport. Can anyone explain that to me? How many breaks are those drivers getting a day does anyone know because I have not witnessed that in any other city I have been to around the world. Really I haven't.

The working time directives are available from the RSA website, and the timetables for the bus are published.
Have you any experience or data to suggest how often the buses are leaving late, and by what margin?

I'm not sure if anyone can explain to you why there "seems to be" a 20-30min break every time, that seems to be a subjective observation rather than any form of objective measurement.

n97 mini

-Chris- wrote: »

I would suggest it would be prudent though, for insurance reasons as much as property damage reasons, that buses shouldn't be left unattended with passengers aboard.

It's common enough for passengers to be allowed onto buses when staff are nearby.

-Chris- wrote: »

Also, it'd be common I'd expect for a tourist on the bus to wonder to themselves "I wonder if this is the right bus", and leaving them unattended with no one official to put the question to, is potentially poor service.

Staff selling tickets and resting drivers should know where buses are going.

darkman2

-Chris- wrote: »

The working time directives are available from the RSA website, and the timetables for the bus are published.
Have you any experience or data to suggest how often the buses are leaving late, and by what margin?

I'm not sure if anyone can explain to you why there "seems to be" a 20-30min break every time, that seems to be a subjective observation rather than any form of objective measurement.

The measure I am using is my experience and that of the tourists and employees there that also get the bus. There is something wrong there. Im telling you that the drivers are taking 20 - 30 minute breaks every time the bus pulls in at the other side of the car park opposite terminal 1. I, as a taxpayer, am subsidising DB. I want to know why this is. Why is there such a long break every time a bus driver pulls up at terminal 1? All the buses cannot be early! There is something not right there. You obviously don't get the bus from the airport often. I guarantee it would irritate you just as much as it irritates me.

-Chris-

n97 mini wrote: »

It's common enough for passengers to be allowed onto buses when staff are nearby.


Staff selling tickets and resting drivers should know where buses are going.

Having to answer questions of passengers is not a proper break.

If the driver wants to take a 15 min break and use the toilet for that entire 15mins, that's their prerogative.

Possibly you could enlist the ticket sellers or inspectors (whoever's there) to let the passengers on and mind them once they're there, I don't know what the procedural implications of that would be.

dub_commuter

To be honest even as not the biggest fan of private companies coming here and being involved in our public transport, I acknowledge that having CIE being involved in too many aspects of the transport in this country is very good for CIE but very bad for the actual country.

It is never good for one player to have so much control over any particular industry as that can be abused and I think a Dart Link ran by Irish Rail is pretty much going too far and would lead to one player having too much control over access to the airport.

The fact we have had competition in recent years whether it is the LUAS, Private intercity coach travel or airport bus services from various companies, has imp[roved the service throughout the city for everyone, because competition forces people to up their game, which lets face it when CIE were in an even more dominant position 15 years back, services were much worse than they were now.

If we get a Metro North run by another company other than people who are behind Aircoach, and those who are behind Dublin Bus, this will create some much needed diversity in the ownership of public transport in this country, no company should be holding so many transport assets. I'd say the same if a private company was running alone, it simply isn't good for the citizens we have here.

At the moment CIE have all the control, they control the railways, the majority of intercity bus services, BE control the majority of local bus services outside Dublin and Dublin Bus control the majority inside. That is not healthy. They oppose any new plan for new transport infrastructure if they are not running it and they want things that they will run.

This is the company that is financed by the public sector to serve what the public actually want from a transport system. These days unfortunately they seem to be thinking what is best for themselves rather than seeing the bigger picture.

Unfortunately as far as I'm concerned on this board at the moment we have too many extreme views - we have those who are clearly supporting CIE through thick and thin regardless of the impact on life it has on people in city, whilst others are too busy worrying about private operators and how this will effect them. No company whether private or public should think they should have things not changed to save their business. It's not about helping out Mr Aircoach, Mr Urbus or Mr CIE.

It's about doing whats right for this country, not for those with vested interests.

LXFlyer

darkman2 wrote: »

I don't object to breaks at all. But there seems to be a "break" of 20 - 30 minutes every time a bus pulls in to Dublin Airport. Can anyone explain that to me? How many breaks are those drivers getting a day does anyone know because I have not witnessed that in any other city I have been to around the world. Really I haven't.

Darkman2 how many other bus routes do you board at a terminus?

If you did you would know that every timetable has some slack built into it to allow for unexpected delays en route and to give the driver a few minutes to stretch their legs. Therefore buses arrive and generally wait before coming up to the stop to start their next journey.

Take a trip to virtually any city and you will observe it. All across central London there are bus stands for buses to lay over between journeys at the terminus.

As for them being there for 30 minutes - I think you could be exaggerating slightly. But if traffic were light, they could arrive 15-20 minutes before they are due to depart again.

One of the things Network Direct is doing is tightening up the running times where there are excessive wait times (and some are) - if you had gone to Dundrum until recently you would have seen the number 14/14a buses waiting up to 25 minutes at at time.

The 16/16a have yet to be retimetabled as part of this process, which is beginning to take shape.

dub_commuter

-Chris- wrote: »

Possibly you could enlist the ticket sellers or inspectors (whoever's there) to let the passengers on and mind them once they're there, I don't know what the procedural implications of that would be.

Much as I am loathe to praise them, after they basically forced an Irishman off the road in Trevor Patton which itself was disgraceful, Having had need to use the Aircoach to Dalkey when my flight got delayed until very late and a dearth of Taxi's one cold winter night, it seems Aircoach always have customer service staff selling tickets outside both terminals and allow passengers to get on whilst drivers are taking breaks. Trevor Patton also used to get a helper with him to do the same at the terminus in Dalkey and the airport.

I believe Aircoach have been doing this since they started so if they have been doing it for however many years, I don't see how Dublin Bus, can't do it. Infact I just had a look at their website and they claim even to be advertising for staff now.

http://www.aircoach.ie/news.article.php?ID=315

The role involves providing information to customers, selling tickets, assisting with coaches and luggage.

We operate 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and we have a Customer Service presence at the Airport between 05:30 and 00:00. Successful applicants would be required to work shifts that cover weekends, evenings, daytime, and early mornings.

darkman2

lxflyer wrote: »

As for them being there for 30 minutes - I think you could be exaggerating slightly. But if traffic were light, they could arrive 15-20 minutes before they are due to depart again.

I get the bus every week - I am not exaggerating. It's 20 - 30 minute wait. There are plenty of people who use the same bus I do and they will back that up if they are on this forum.

Also - you say a bus could be early - fair enough. Not ALL buses can be early. You telling me that this is fixed up so that every time a driver drives from the Airport to City and back is taking such break - that's what your saying because every bus must be early at the Airport if that's the case. So how many hours breaks are these drivers getting a day then since it's teed up so nicely for them apparently?

devnull

lxflyer wrote: »

Darkman2 how many other bus routes do you board at a terminus?

If you did you would know that every timetable has some slack built into it to allow for unexpected delays en route and to give the driver a few minutes to stretch their legs. Therefore buses arrive and generally wait before coming up to the stop to start their next journey.

I personally don't have a problem with waiting at a terminus so much for a regular city route, I can't exactly put a finger on why that is, but when there is luggage involved, in my experience anyway throughout Europe boarding earlier is always very common on airport routes, simply because it's more comfortable for those involved. I don't think there is a need to go the whole hog and do this for regular service routes, but coach routes and airport routes there is certainly an argument for opening the doors early and selling the tickets and letting people wait - it's very common.

-Chris-

All the bus drivers MUST NOT drive without a break for more than 4.5 hours. After driving for 4.5 hours, a break of at least 45 minutes is mandatory. They can distribute that break over the 4.5 hours.

So they're allowed to take a 15 min break every 90 mins.

If it takes 45 mins each way from town to the airport, you'd expect each driver to be stretching their legs for 15 mins at the airport.

Allowing for early arrivals, slack in the schedule or whatever I'd say it's quite possible to see a driver not driving for 20 mins.

I'm not sure what proportion of breaks last 30 mins, I wish someone had those figures.

devnull

He must be talking about the 16A or maybe the 102.

dermo88

My problem with Ireland and transport planning is that it is great on the planning, but very poor on implementation.

Consider the fact that we expected DART Underground to be up and running at this stage (September 2011), and if I have the time later I will pull out the posts from 2005 proving as much on this board. There may be some evidence lurking around on Irishrailwaynews and railusers.ie although the old archive (pre 2007 and pre 2005 respectively) may no longer be extant.

Regarding CIE having a monopoly at Dublin Airport, it appears that they abuse this at both Dublin Port and Dublin Airport by imposing excessively high fares for the use of a bus. This is somewhat similar to National Express in Britain who charge an exhorbitant fare for their Birmingham-Heathrow direct bus service. A fare of E5,90 from Dublin Airport to the city centre for a bus is by International standards extremely high. In the case of a high standard rail link, it could be justified, but for a bus......no.....it cannot.

I could be accused of "rail snobbery", and frankly....I do have a bias towards rail in an urban environment where the whole aim is to move as many passengers as quickly as possible.

As for who runs it, as long as it does the job, I don't really care. Just as long as its cost effective, efficient, clean......thats the goal.

I think the only way things will change will be when Ministers have to suffer the consequences of their decisions rather than being chauffered to a terminal and then brought through the VIP section, rather than dealing with the day to day realities of how the travelling public live with their decisions.

But remember.....TIE (This is Ireland)

LXFlyer

darkman2 wrote: »

I get the bus every week - I am not exaggerating. It's 20 - 30 minute wait. There are plenty of people who use the same bus I do and they will back that up if they are on this forum.

Also - you say a bus could be early - fair enough. Not ALL buses can be early. You telling me that this is fixed up so that every time a driver drives from the Airport to City and back is taking such break - that's what your saying because every bus must be early at the Airport if that's the case. So how many hours breaks are these drivers getting a day then since it's teed up so nicely for them apparently?

A 20 minute break between journeys is perfectly possible particularly if traffic is light.

In this case however the 16a starts at Nutgrove, not the city - so it's possible the driver started in the city centre, drove to Nutgrove and then drove all the way back to the airport (that is over 90 minutes).

It's also possible that he took over heading north at Parnell Square, I don't know.

Either way the 16 schedules will be redesigned in the coming months, and if the running times are too generous you can be damn sure that they will be cut back if necessary. However, in some cases a longer break between journeys is unavoidable if you want to have a consistent interval service pattern and integrated with other routes.

But it is fair to say that as a general rule every bus journey will have 5-10% recovery time built into them to allow for unexpected delays/heavy traffic. Most of the time it's not needed, but when things go wrong then it is. Then you'd be complaining about buses not operating or being late.

Timetabling public transport services is nowhere near as straightforward as people seem to think.

LXFlyer

dermo88 wrote: »

My problem with Ireland and transport planning is that it is great on the planning, but very poor on implementation.

Consider the fact that we expected DART Underground to be up and running at this stage (September 2011), and if I have the time later I will pull out the posts from 2005 proving as much on this board. There may be some evidence lurking around on Irishrailwaynews and railusers.ie although the old archive (pre 2007 and pre 2005 respectively) may no longer be extant.

Regarding CIE having a monopoly at Dublin Airport, it appears that they abuse this at both Dublin Port and Dublin Airport by imposing excessively high fares for the use of a bus. This is somewhat similar to National Express in Britain who charge an exhorbitant fare for their Birmingham-Heathrow direct bus service. A fare of E5,90 from Dublin Airport to the city centre for a bus is by International standards extremely high. In the case of a high standard rail link, it could be justified, but for a bus......no.....it cannot.

I could be accused of "rail snobbery", and frankly....I do have a bias towards rail in an urban environment where the whole aim is to move as many passengers as quickly as possible.

As for who runs it, as long as it does the job, I don't really care. Just as long as its cost effective, efficient, clean......thats the goal.

I think the only way things will change will be when Ministers have to suffer the consequences of their decisions rather than being chauffered to a terminal and then brought through the VIP section, rather than dealing with the day to day realities of how the travelling public live with their decisions.

But remember.....TIE (This is Ireland)

The 747 is a commercial operation so they are not subsidised, as is the Port Service - therefore they charge a higher fare.

The 16a and 41 are both PSO supported and only charge EUR 2.30. People don't HAVE to use the 747.

As for the port - I don't know what the licensing issues there are.

dermo88

lxflyer

The 747 is a commercial operation so they are not subsidised, as is the Port Service - therefore they charge a higher fare.

The 16a and 41 are both PSO supported and only charge EUR 2.30. People don't HAVE to use the 747.

Thanks for the information, and please excuse the next melodramatic comment. My opinion it is an elegant excuse for legalised extortion.

dowlingm

dub_commuter wrote: »

Much as I am loathe to praise them, after they basically forced an Irishman off the road in Trevor Patton

Oh god not this again please.

For a nation who loves to talk about "no blacks dogs or Irish" we really learned nothing, did we.

As for the buses - if left running open and unattended on the northside of Dublin the papers would be full of "DB's open invite to joyriders" or whatnot.

the_syco

darkman2 wrote: »

Ever been infuriated at the fact that everytime the bus to town arrives the driver gets out and has a 20 minute to 30 minute break while the tourists employees and customers are left standing in the pissing rain?

You really have to hate those mandatory breaks that they have to take after driving for X amount of time to ensure that they are alert when driving...