Easiest way to wire up an outdoor socket??

paddy147

I need to install an outdoor double socket,for my girlfriend to build a pond and water feature.

I have 30 meters of SWA 3 core 2.5 here.
I also have 25 meters of normal 2.5 twin and earth.
I also have an MK IP rated outdoor double socket box.

The distance from the mains fuseboard to the new switch plate location by the kitchen door is 22 meters.

The distance from the switch plate location to the outdoor socket location is 6 meters.


Would it be safe and ok to wire the normal 2.5 twin and earth from the mains fuseboard to the single switch plate location in the kitchen and then use a few meters of the SWA from the switch out to the socket location in the garden??



Does the actual steel wired armour of the SWA need to be earth clamped of can it be simpley cut off and the SWA be wired into the outdoor socket and then the switch plate in the normal fashion too?

I need to get this sorted ASAP as I have carpet fitters arriving on Monday morning to do the bedoorms and landing area,so cable will need to be run in and floorboards will need to be back down by then.


Basicly,whats the simplest way to do this??

Thanks.:)

Pic of new switch plate location in kitchen (red arrow).

2011

paddy147 wrote: »

Would it be safe and ok to wire the normal 2.5 twin and earth from the mains fuseboard to the single switch plate location in the kitchen and then use a few meters of the SWA from the switch out to the socket location in the garden??

T + E fro the indoor part is fine.

It would be best to use a double pole 20A switch (I am assuming your MCB/RCBO is 20A).
At a minimum the switch should be rated to switch the current that the MCB is rated at.
A DP switch will also enable you to make a high quality connection.
I would suggest that you use one with a neon indication lamp.

Does the actual steel wired armour of the SWA need to be earth clamped of can it be simpley cut off and the SWA be wired into the outdoor socket and then the switch plate in the normal fashion too?

The armour should be properly earthed (just like a steel conduit would be).

paddy147

Thanks for the fast reply,appreciate it.:)

Its a completely new wired house and new mains fuseboard.
MCBs are 20A.

How would the SWA armour be earthed??Any pics to show me what you mean??



And can this DP neon light switch be got in a chrome finish (to match kitchen plates)???

M cebee

If theres lites you might want an extra core

good luck with it

paddy147

M cebee wrote: »

If theres lites you might want an extra core

I cant actually remember if its 3 core or 4 core SWA that I bought,I,ll check 1st thing in the morning though.

What I need is an outdoor double socket on the wall,for my girlfriend to build her pond/water feature and install the pond pump.

Shes going hopping mad at me for not getting done sooner.:pac::pac:

M cebee

If theres lites and fountain 3* wont do

be careful!

2011

paddy147 wrote: »

How would the SWA armour be earthed??Any pics to show me what you mean??

Is the switch box metal? If so gland the SWA to it (using an SWA gland). This gland will connect the armor to the box (it is best to use the "banjo too). The switch box should be earthed using the CPC in the T + E.

If the box is plastic, there is another option.

And can this DP neon light switch be got in a chrome finish (to match kitchen plates)???

Yes, try Legrand, MK or Hamilton.

paddy147

M cebee wrote: »

If theres lites and fountain 3* wont do

be careful!

Im praying thats its 4 core then that I bought.:D

if you look at the pic I posted theres a neon light switch plate there on the wall.

Thats for the dishwasher and the dryer too.

Would that a double pole switch plate and is it another 1 of them that I need??

Thanks.:)

paddy147

2011 wrote: »

Is the switch box metal? If so gland the SWA to it (using an SWA gland). This gland will connect the armor to the box (it is best to use the "banjo too). The switch box should be earthed using the CPC in the T + E.

If the box is plastic, there is another option.



Yes, try Legrand, MK or Hamilton.

Yep,back box would be a single metal back box,as are all the back boxes on the kitchen wall.

2011

paddy147 wrote: »

Yep,back box would be a single metal back box,as are all the back boxes on the kitchen wall.

Perhaps you can unscrew the box so that you can gland into it and hide the gland in the wall behind plaster board.

Always keep the filler handy

paddy147

2011 wrote: »

Perhaps you can unscrew the box so that you can gland into it and hide the gland in the wall behind plaster board.

Always keep the filler handy

Yep,I allways have a large tub of gap filler handy with me.:D

Ive also just found 2 packets of those SWA glands that you mentioned,I didnt realize that I had them,until just now.:)

I have access to the wall behind the plasterboard so I can get both the normal twin and earth and the SWA into position quite easily.

Bruthal

Its like de ja vu here this week:D. At least the answers are the same.

paddy147

robbie7730 wrote: »

Its like de ja vu here this week:D. At least the answers are the same.

I know.:D

Someone told me to just wire off the existing double socket thats there in the pic and fit a new spur and then a switch plate and then wire the SWA out to the garden.

But isnt it a bad idea to wire off an existing socket like this??

Bruthal

paddy147 wrote: »

I know.:D

Someone told me to just wire off the existing double socket thats there in the pic and fit a new spur and then a switch plate and then wire the SWA out to the garden.

But isnt it a bad idea to wire off an existing socket like this??

Coming off an existing socket circuit is not too bad. Just any problems on the outdoor part of the circuit and it will trip the house circuit. But i often did it, and fit a double pole switch to isolate it in the event of a nuisance tripping fault occuring outside.

No spur switch would be needed if you are supplying just sockets, just a double pole switch.

For the swa, you can gland into the metal switch box, or fit another metal box below the switch after cutting out a bit of the slab, just to gland the swa gland into, and let the inner cable continue up to the switch the. Dont forget to earth any box the gland is fitted to. It should be glanded and earthed both ends.

paddy147

The socket in the pic below is also on the same circuit as the neon switch plate beside it.

That switch plate is for the washing machine,dishwasher and the condensor dryer.

Could I still come off that double socket with some 2.5 T&E to a double pole switch plate and then wire the 4 core SWA from that out to the junction box in the garden???

There will be a pond water pump and also some nice lLED garden lights wired into the junction box.

Or would this method of wiring off the kitchen socket cause problems and things to trip out?


Oh,and which is better.......an outdoor double socket or an outdoor junction box??

Thanks.:)

Bruthal

paddy147 wrote: »

The socket in the pic below is also on the same circuit as the neon switch plate beside it.

That switch plate is for the washing machine,dishwasher and the condensor dryer.

Could I still come off that double socket with some 2.5 T&E to a double pole switch plate and then wire the 4 core SWA from that out to the junction box in the garden???

There will be a pond water pump and also some nice lLED garden lights wired into the junction box.

Or would this method of wiring off the kitchen socket cause problems and things to trip out?

You could come off that socket, and the new isolator could possibly be incorporated into the socket circuit, or just spurred off it.

You can then bring one live core and neutral and earth from the isolator out to garden, and the second core broken through a fused spur to enable the lights to be switched off, although the pump would need to be on for the lights to be on if done like that. The isolator could feed 2 spur switches to have individual control.

Oh,and which is better.......an outdoor double socket or an outdoor junction box??

Thanks.:)

A junction box would be more versatile, for 2 seperately switched sockets, a JB with din rail in it, and 2 seperate sockets can then be connected to it. Or cables connected direct into it.

cast_iron

paddy147 wrote: »

That switch plate is for the washing machine,dishwasher and the condensor dryer.

If this is the case, I'd definitely run a new circuit in.
In my opinion, that setup will lead to trouble as I can't see those 3 items running together without tripping the MCB. The load would be too high for a 20A MCB.

Bruthal

cast_iron wrote: »

If this is the case, I'd definitely run a new circuit in.
In my opinion, that setup will lead to trouble as I can't see those 3 items running together without tripping the MCB. The load would be too high for a 20A MCB.

Yes just to be clear and not confusing it with the circuit for the garden stuff, a new circuit for the kitchen appliances if paddy has the 3 mentioned on a single circuit.

It should also be isolators for each appliance too.

paddy147

Thanks for the advice guys.

Right so,after reading the advice given to me here Ive decided the following........................

As of this evening,it will be a new circuit run from the mains fuseboard for the outdoor junction box.......

I went and bought the following items this evening........

20 amp Hagar RCBO
30 meters of 2.5 T&E,
Flat/flush fit chrome switch plate with 2 switchs (1 switch for pond pump,1 for the lights).
1 metal back box
10 meters of 4 core 2.5 SWA (my SWA was in fact only 3 core )
2 SWA earthing glands
1 outdoor/weatherproof junction box


Does that sound right?

And do I need anything else?


Thanks.:)

cast_iron

Well the switch plate you bought should be 2 gang, double-pole (as stated above).
The 4 core is only necessary if you want to switch the lights and pump separately.

And none of that will solve the problem of your kitchen sockets.

I suggest you get someone in who knows what they are at as while alot of what you want is fairly straightforward, there are some aspects that will require an electrician. (namely fitting the RCBO / sorting out the utility socket setup / glanding SWA properly / DIN rail in outside junction box, etc.)

M cebee

paddy's fairly handy now after the garage job:pac:

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

paddy's fairly handy now after the garage job:pac:

The sparks should dig out the pond now as well, since there is a cable going to its pump:pac:

paddy147

cast_iron wrote: »

Well the switch plate you bought should be 2 gang, double-pole (as stated above).
The 4 core is only necessary if you want to switch the lights and pump separately.

And none of that will solve the problem of your kitchen sockets.

I suggest you get someone in who knows what they are at as while alot of what you want is fairly straightforward, there are some aspects that will require an electrician. (namely fitting the RCBO / sorting out the utility socket setup / glanding SWA properly / DIN rail in outside junction box, etc.)

Eh kitchen sockets???Nothing to do with the kitchen sockets.

Im not going near the kitchen sockets at all mate (I just stated that above in my last post) and hense the RCBO and the main fuseboard.

Oh and yes,I will be switching the pond pump and lights seperatly off of a 2 gang switch,thats what my girlfriend and myself want to be able to do.

paddy147

robbie7730 wrote: »

The sparks should dig out the pond now as well, since there is a cable going to its pump:pac:

Who said anything about digging out for a pond?;)

My other half has designed a raised pond and water feature,all above ground with planting around it.Thats her job/career,as in horticulture and garden design.

paddy147

Right,the 2.5 T&E is in place at the mains fuseboard end and also in the kitchen where the double switch plate will be.

The cable run actually worked at 20 meters from board to switch plate location.

Is 1 T&E cable (2.5 T&E) from the fuseboard to the double switch plate enough??


The floor baords are going back down for good tomorrow,so I just want to make sure that I have everything that I need in place,before the floor is screwed back down and the carpet fitters come in.


Thanks.:)

P.S-Pic of the chrome double switch plate that will be fitted

Bruthal

Certainly enough for the outdoor sockets/JB. Maybe another for your kitchen appliances.

Bruthal

paddy147 wrote: »

Thats her job/career,as in horticulture and garden design.

Mine is avoiding digging large trenches.

paddy147

robbie7730 wrote: »

Mine is avoiding digging large trenches.

fair enough so.:)

paddy147

robbie7730 wrote: »

Maybe another for your kitchen appliances.

I dont get you??

Im not going anywhere near the existing wiring or RCD for the kitchen sockets or kitchen appliences

Bruthal

paddy147 wrote: »

I dont get you??

Im not going anywhere near the existing wiring or RCD for the kitchen sockets or kitchen appliences

You told us the wall switch does the dishwasher, washing machine and dryer. We suggested you should run another circuit as the 3 of them on the same circuit is a bit too much, and surprising for a new installation, although nothing should surprise really.

Since the route is the same, i suggested now running a second t&e with the one you just ran for the gargen sockets switch, but for the appliances.

The new switch will be beside the existing wm, dw and dryer switch wont it?

paddy147

robbie7730 wrote: »

You told us the wall switch does the dishwasher, washing machine and dryer. We suggested you should run another circuit as the 3 of them on the same circuit is a bit too much, and surprising for a new installation, although nothing should surprise really.

Since the route is the same, i suggested now running a second t&e with the one you just ran for the gargen sockets switch, but for the appliances.

The new switch will be beside the existing wm, dw and dryer switch wont it?

The washing machine,dishwasher,condensor dryer and that double socket on the wall are on a circuit of their own with an RCD at the fuseboard.

The other kitchen sockets are on another circuit that also has a neon switch on the other kitchen wall and with a different RCD at the fuseboard


Im going to install a new metal back box and a double switch plate on the wall beside the french doors

cast_iron

I explained in post 17 why the existing setup is not ideal. And robbie clarified in the following post this is separate to the pond job.

Also, the switch you need should be 2 gang double pole. By what you are saying, you have an ordinary light switch and that won't really do.

paddy147

cast_iron wrote: »

I explained in post 17 why the existing setup is not ideal. And robbie clarified in the following post this is separate to the pond job.

Also, the switch you need should be 2 gang double pole. By what you are saying, you have an ordinary light switch and that won't really do.

With regards the outdoor junction box.........

Ive taken both your advice (thankyou too ) and am going from the fuseboard with a 20 amp Hagar RCBO and the new 20 meter run of 2.5 T&E to the switch plate location,and then a 10 meter run of 4 core 2.5 SWA from the switch plate out to where the junction box will be located on the garden wall.

Im presuming that 4 core 2.5 SWA is good enough for a pond pump and a set of LED garden lights??


P.S-I,ll chack the fuseboard and amp ratings of the 2 RCDs for the kitchen tomorrow.

cast_iron

The 4 core will be fine.
The switch probably won't be as I think I've asked 3 times is it 2 pole and not got an answer.
The remarks about the existing utility sockets are completely separate to the pond, and are an observation on the dryer/dishwasher/washing machine won't suffice on the one circuit the way you described. robbie also mentioned they should have a dp switch each. But you seem to ignore all this too.

paddy147

cast_iron wrote: »

The 4 core will be fine.
The switch probably won't be as I think I've asked 3 times is it 2 pole and not got an answer.
The remarks about the existing utility sockets are completely separate to the pond, and are an observation on the dryer/dishwasher/washing machine won't suffice on the one circuit the way you described. robbie also mentioned they should have a dp switch each. But you seem to ignore all this too.

Regarding the 4 core SWA,thanks.:)

Im not ignoring anything at all.Im simply trying to figure it all out.

If I was an electricain,the I wouldnt feel the need or even have the need to be posting here asking questions,would I???;)


So are you saying that each applience (dryer,washing machine and dishwasher) needs its own seperate neon switch plate then??

So that would be 3 of them on the wall then??

cast_iron

paddy147 wrote: »

Im not ignoring anything at all.

Well I'll ask for the 4th time then about the 2 gang dp switch you bought for the pump/lgts then?:pac:

If I was an electricain,the I wouldnt feel the need or even have the need to be posting here asking questions,would I???;)

If everyone on here was an electrician threads like this wouldn't exist. Where's the fun in that?:)

So are you saying that each applience (dryer,washing machine and dishwasher) needs its own seperate neon switch plate then??

So that would be 3 of them on the wall then??

Yes, that is what is being said. It is also being said these 3 appliances will not work together on one circuit as the loads involved are too high. That's why robbie said run an extra circuit in now for these appliances (in addition to the circuit for outside).

M cebee

bit late for me and i haven't been paying much attention

but yes i reckon every appliance should have a separate isolating switch-rather than 1 switch isolating all the inaccessible sockets together

M cebee

yes and agree also

2 radials for the worktop double socket and 3 appliances would be required

paddy147

cast_iron wrote: »

Well I'll ask for the 4th time then about the 2 gang dp switch you bought for the pump/lgts then?:pac:

If everyone on here was an electrician threads like this wouldn't exist. Where's the fun in that?:)

Yes, that is what is being said. It is also being said these 3 appliances will not work together on one circuit as the loads involved are too high. That's why robbie said run an extra circuit in now for these appliances (in addition to the circuit for outside).

Well I presume thats its a DP switch plate,as thats what I asked for in the wholesalers.



Thats the reason why I posted here and asked the questions,to seek advice from those in the know.


Well then I will have to bash my walls to bits and start cutting holes through tiled kitchen wall in order to fit a DP neon switch for each of those 3 appliances.

Ive not seen any of my families or friends modern houses and kitchens with a DP neon switch on the wall for every single appliance.

M cebee

every appliance requires an accessible isolating switch

paddy147

M cebee wrote: »

every appliance requires an accessible isolating switch

Well Ive never seen a kitchen with a seperate wall mounted DP neon switch plate for every single appliance.

Your average kitchen then would need at least 5-6 switches on the kitchen wall.

Fridgefreezer
Oven
Cooker
Washing Machine
Dryer
Dishwasher


So thats how you all wire kitchens up then???

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

bit late for me and i haven't been paying much attention

Pay attention there you:pac:

Bruthal

paddy147 wrote: »

Well Ive never seen a kitchen with a seperate wall mounted DP neon switch plate for every single applience.

Your average kitchen then would need at least 5-6 switches on the kitchen wall then.

Fridgefreezer
Oven
Cooker
Washing Machine
Dryer
Dishwser

Cooker and oven have always had them anyway. Now any appliance where its socket is hidden or not easily accessible requires one. Not necessarily needed on every appliance, only ones with hard to access sockets.

It would certainly make fault finding a lot easier.

paddy147

robbie7730 wrote: »

Cooker and oven have always had them anyway. Now any appliance where its socket is hidden or not easily accessible requires one. Not necessarily needed on every appliance, only ones with hard to access sockets.

It would certainly make fault finding a lot easier.

Well my cooker,oven and fridge freezer are covered by their own switches,thank god.:)

And theres the washing machine,dryer and dishwasher on the other neon switch.

And thats how any of my familes,friends or relations modern houses and kitchens I have been in,are done.

paddy147

Im going to bow out for tonight,as I have a few cold beers sitting here,with my name on them.:D

Thanks for the advice and also thanks for the advice so far on the outdoor junction box.

I know how to wire up an RCD but am a tad unsure as to wiring up a Hagar 20 amp RCBO.

So maybe someone could advize me or show me what way its wired up.

Thanks.:)

cast_iron

paddy147 wrote: »

And thats how any of my familes,friends or relations modern houses and kitchens I have been in,are done.

That doesn't make it right unfortunately. Sept 2009 i think the regs changed.
Washing machine/ dryer usually wouldn't be in the kitchen of a house anyway.
A DP switch to a dedicated single under-counter skt would be ideal.

All of that still sidesteps the problem that those 3 appliances won't work on a single circuit at the same time - switches or no switches.

Does the switch you bought not say what it is on the packet? 20A DP should be there somewhere if it's the right one.

M cebee

paddy147 wrote: »

Well Ive never seen a kitchen with a seperate wall mounted DP neon switch plate for every single appliance.

Your average kitchen then would need at least 5-6 switches on the kitchen wall.

Fridgefreezer
Oven
Cooker
Washing Machine
Dryer
Dishwasher


So thats how you all wire kitchens up then???

yes pretty much

i don't like that 1 isolating switch for 3 appliances at all myself

indie armada

could 3 individual 20 amp dp switches be fed from that radial circut that is currently feeding the single dp switch, or should each applience have its own separate feed from the board to its own 20 amp dp switch. in the unlikely case that all 3 appliences are on would a single 20 amp dp cope with the load?

also with respect to the feed to the pump/lights, why is a dp switch nesecery in this instance. is it because the feed is going outdoors or because of the pump.

cast_iron

indie armada wrote: »

could 3 individual 20 amp dp switches be fed from that radial circut that is currently feeding the single dp switch, or should each applience have its own separate feed from the board to its own 20 amp dp switch. in the unlikely case that all 3 appliences are on would a single 20 amp dp cope with the load?

You can feed multiple dp switches from the one MCB, however, in this case, those 3 appliances on together will cause it to trip out. The MCB would trip out before the load would become a problem for the dp.

And it's not that unlikely to have these 3 appliances on together!
It would happen regular at home in my house.

also with respect to the feed to the pump/lights, why is a dp switch nesecery in this instance. is it because the feed is going outdoors or because of the pump.

To provide safe and easy isolation if working on the electrics. And to provide paddy with convenient switches

Bruthal

Double pole switches can also isolate outside circuits if they are causing nuisance tripping, especially if the outside circuit is spurred from a socket circuit in the house. A neutral - earth fault would trip the RCD/RCBO, and a single pole switch would not clear the fault.

The DP switch is probably a little too far from the pond pump and lights to technically qualify as a method of isolation for working on the items, if a JB is used outside.

indie armada

in this instance the circut is on its own rcbo, so is having dp switches really nesecery as it can be isolated at the board without any disruption to the house and if it was tripping due to fault only that circut would be affected.
im not disagreeing with the advice, just trying to understand it.

its probably goin to be difficult for pady to get a 2gang dp switch in that range, providing he wants to keep all his switches the same.

also what would be his options if he wanted to put one of the appliences on the same circut as the pond and lights,using the new t&e.
would it be posible to put a second dp switch in for the dryer for example and spur off that for the pond and lights. would this not split up the overloaded circuts and if something in the garden did trip, only the dryer would be affected.