Unsettled Score

dead one

Beruthiel wrote: »

That is NEVER a good reason to hit another human being.
It is a barbaric, basic, unintelligent attitude perpetuated by neanderthals.
Any wo/man who resorts to that kind of thing is no better than an animal.

Alright, then give me the alternative,
Let say, A woman X who cheats her husband Y, and she continues her cheating even after getting warning from husband.....
Cheating can be classified into following terms
1. She has relation with some other man
2. She has no interest in family matters and future of family
3. She doesn't take care of children.

many more social problem...
give me alternatives to Y... What should Y do
1. punish lightly X to save family
2. destroy the family by allowing her wife what she wishes to do
3. Divorce her wife to ruin family...
or you have any better alternative please share... Let see what you've got

I like this foram and prefer this foram over Islamic foram because of the freedom, i would like Beruthiel to answer my question.... The reason for opening this thread is that Moderator X has closed the original thread in islam foram, thinking him the savior, he follows his own doctrine to torch his own reason infact there is compulsion in Islam.... That's clearly written in Quran..... So it is good foram to continue discussion, i hope moderators at this foram wouldn't mind...:)

Delirium

so the only way to save the family is to beat the wife?

Never hear of couples counselling?


EDIT: what if it's the husband that cheats, dead one? are you okay with the wife beating the "head of the family"?

Undergod

dead one's misogyny: The Motion Picture Thread!

fatmammycat

'punish lightly' I assume means hitting another human to get your own way.

Either counselling or divorce. Domestic violence and cheating is already a 'ruined' family.

Beruthiel

dead one wrote: »

Alright, then give me the alternative,
Let say, A woman X who cheats her husband Y

Cheating normally only happens if one or both parties in a relationship are no longer interested or love the other.

1. She has relation with some other man
2. She has no interest in family matters and future of family
3. She doesn't take care of children.

Cheating has nothing to do with how much you care for your children.

punish lightly X to save family

Out of the question. Either the relationship is over or it's not.
If it's over, then so is the family unit in it's original form.
'Punishing' someone for the end of a relationship does not fix it. It makes one or both partners miserable. How is that a healthy relationship?

Divorce her wife to ruin family...

If the relationship is over then divorce is the only option.
That does not mean the relationship with your children is over. With consistent effort, your relationship with your children can be great.

seamus

Many would say that children are better off with separated parents who don't beat eachother rather than living in home where it's normal to be violent against people you've supposed to love.

No husband or wife has a right to "punish" the other for their mistakes. That's not how relationships work. It's the duty of the person who makes a mistake to make amends, not the duty of the other to meet out a punishment.

Galvasean

dead one wrote: »

1. punish lightly X to save family

Could you clarify your definition of the word 'lightly' as I don't think everyone here will have the same definition as you.

Genghiz Cohen

Galvasean wrote: »

Could you clarify your definition of the word 'lightly' as I don't think everyone here will have the same definition as you.

A rod no thicker than your thumb, and beat her so she doesn't die within the next 3 days...

b318isp

@OP: Is the purpose of your post to justify a reason for beating someone, as if it is a potentially worthwhile solution?

If so, I'd ask the Mods to close this topic too.

Beruthiel

Galvasean wrote: »

Could you clarify your definition of the word 'lightly' as I don't think everyone here will have the same definition as you.

Stoning is a common occurrence in some parts of the world....

kylith

If someone is cheating then the marriage is ruined and it's better for all concerned if they call it a day and seperate. What if partner Y has no proof that X is cheating? Is he justified in beating his wife because of his suspicions? What is considered evidence of unfaithfulness? Being caught in flagrante? Texting/calling a man? Looking at men in the street?

koth wrote: »

so the only way to save the family is to beat the wife?

Never hear of couples counselling?


EDIT: what if it's the husband that cheats, dead one? are you okay with the wife beating the "head of the family"?

I too am interested in dead one's opinion on whether or not it's ok for a woman to beat a her husband if he's discovered to have cheated.

Standman

kylith wrote: »

If someone is cheating then the marriage is ruined and it's better for all concerned if they call it a day and seperate. What if partner Y has no proof that X is cheating? Is he justified in beating his wife because of his suspicions? What is considered evidence of unfaithfulness? Being caught in flagrante? Texting/calling a man? Looking at men in the street?


I too am interested in dead one's opinion on whether or not it's ok for a woman to beat a her husband if he's discovered to have cheated.

I would imagine it is not ok because the foundation for this whole wife beating idea is based on a verse in the Quran which gives specific guidelines on how to discipline an unruly wife. There are no guidelines which go the other way as far as I know.

Surah an-Nisa 4:34: As for those (women) on whose part you fear ill-will and nasty conduct, admonish them (first), (next) leave them alone in beds (and last) beat or separate them (from you). But if they obey you, then seek nothing against them. Behold, God is most high and great. (4:34)

oldrnwisr

dead one wrote: »

Alright, then give me the alternative,
Let say, A woman X who cheats her husband Y, and she continues her cheating even after getting warning from husband.....
Cheating can be classified into following terms
1. She has relation with some other man
2. She has no interest in family matters and future of family
3. She doesn't take care of children.

many more social problem...
give me alternatives to Y... What should Y do
1. punish lightly X to save family
2. destroy the family by allowing her wife what she wishes to do
3. Divorce her wife to ruin family...
or you have any better alternative please share... Let see what you've got

I like this foram and prefer this foram over Islamic foram because of the freedom, i would like Beruthiel to answer my question.... The reason for opening this thread is that Moderator X has closed the original thread in islam foram, thinking him the savior, he follows his own doctrine to torch his own reason infact there is compulsion in Islam.... That's clearly written in Quran..... So it is good foram to continue discussion, i hope moderators at this foram wouldn't mind...:)

I'm incredibly confused, but then I'm ususally confused by your posts.

First off, doesn't your religion call for death by stoning for adultery. Surah 6:89 suggests that Mosaic law should be the guiding principle for the punishment of adultery. Hence, adulterers should be put to death according to Deuteronomy 22:22.

So if a man is to follow Islam then he should hand is wife over to be tried for adultery anyway, thus breaking the family no matter what.

So you're suggesting that a man not follow Islam and keep it quiet to save the family.

Are you directing this question at us, what we as non-believers, would do?

If so, I can't even begin to describe the revulsion I feel at the idea that you think that a man should even consider he has the right to either issue his wife with a warning (whatever that might be) or lay a hand on her.

This whole question makes me think that Abie Philbin Bowman was right and that the type of Muslim, like you who comes out with this crap and those Muslims who think they're going to get 72 virgins in the afterlife have NO actual experience in adult relationships with women. Because if you did option 1 and probably the entire question wouldn't have entered your head.

To Dades and Robin, I don't see this kind of thread ending well.

Malari

OP your attitude is repulsive. I can't even see why you think a husband hitting his wife would in any way convince her that staying with him was a good idea. You seem to be taking it for granted that a "light punishment" will cure all instantly.

Penn

So, women aren't treated as second-class, they are treated with respect... except when they step out of line, you're allowed to beat them.

Have I summarised your viewpoint clearly enough or would you like to clarify your position?

Dades

oldrnwisr wrote: »

To Dades and Robin, I don't see this kind of thread ending well.

No, but I see it ending soon.

Bag of Poo

Women need a bit of verbal or physical discipline from their men to show them boundaries like kids.

The secretly love it too, though they play the victim afterwards.

fatmammycat

It's just outdated sexist claptrap dressed up with a religious flavour, same as most patriarchal religions.

pH

dead one wrote: »

cheating even after getting warning from husband.....
Cheating can be classified into following terms
1. She has relation with some other man
2. She has no interest in family matters and future of family
3. She doesn't take care of children.

I think that at many have said, forgetting even for a moment the barbarity of committing an assault on another human being, I don't think it's possible to beat someone into loving you, your children or taking interest in family matters. Perhaps it's possible through pure fear and intimidation to change their behaviour, but beating certainly can't change how they feel.

IamtheWalrus

[QUOTE=Beruthiel;74151009] Originally Posted by Beruthiel
That is NEVER a good reason to hit another human being.
It is a barbaric, basic, unintelligent attitude perpetuated by neanderthals.
Any wo/man who resorts to that kind of thing is no better than an animal.
[/QUOTE]

Don't agree. What if i am in an argument with a vile, nasty and evil person. This person is very good with words, is very manipulative and knows what to say to have maximum horrid effect.

If this person is giving me a hard time with, how do I react? I am not nasty, or evil or very articulate, but I am good with my fists.

The nasty person is not good with their fists. Their weapon is their tongue. My weapon is my fists. The nasty person is using their weapon against me, to the full force. Am I not not retaliate by using my weapon, my fists?

Doctor DooM

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Don't agree. What if i am in an argument with a vile, nasty and evil person. This person is very good with words, is very manipulative and knows what to say to have maximum horrid effect.

If this person is giving me a hard time with, how do I react? I am not nasty, or evil or very articulate, but I am good with my fists.

The nasty person is not good with their fists. Their weapon is their tongue. My weapon is my fists. The nasty person is using their weapon against me, to the full force. Am I not not retaliate by using my weapon, my fists?

Basically, no.

His weapon makes you feel bad. Your weapon kills. You can stop listening to him. He can't stop you punching him.

fatmammycat

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Don't agree. What if i am in an argument with a vile, nasty and evil person. This person is very good with words, is very manipulative and knows what to say to have maximum horrid effect.

If this person is giving me a hard time with, how do I react? I am not nasty, or evil or very articulate, but I am good with my fists.

The nasty person is not good with their fists. Their weapon is their tongue. My weapon is my fists. The nasty person is using their weapon against me, to the full force. Am I not not retaliate by using my weapon, my fists?

No, you don't 'retaliate' with physical violence. Walk away if you're so confused between a verbal disagreement and assault.

Zillah

I think it is awesome that a Muslim poster comes here to discuss things because of the free speech.

robindch

Bag of Poo wrote: »

Women need a bit of verbal or physical discipline [...]

Now, now, poobag, you'll be receiving a bit of short'n'sharp forumly discipline if there's any more of that kind of silly trolling

seamus

I actually like dead_one, because rather than going on about interpretation-iddly and some-sect-oodly, he's not afraid to be honest about what it is that his religion preaches to him.

For some reason, when confronted with the actual horrors of their religion, so many religious people choose to conveniently dance around the immoral teachings and pretend they don't happen.

dead_one at least has the balls to say that he doesn't believe they're immoral. Most religious people stay religious despite knowing that bug chunks of the stuff is immoral.

Dades

Zillah wrote: »

I think it is awesome that a Muslim poster comes here to discuss things because of the free speech.

It's less about free speech than giving him enough rope.

Jimoslimos

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

If this person is giving me a hard time with, how do I react? I am not nasty, or evil or very articulate, but I am good with my fists.

Walk away.........your intellectual shortcomings or inability to express yourself verbally aren't compromised by physically beating somebody

robindch

dead one wrote: »

A woman X who cheats her husband Y

Tell me -- if the husband cheats on the woman, it's ok for the woman to assault the husband?

Genghiz Cohen

Well it seemed to make J C shut up...

MrPudding

Can we merge this thread with the "Islam is a religion of peace" thread?

MrP

Beruthiel

robindch wrote: »

Tell me -- if the husband cheats on the woman, it's ok for the woman to assault the husband?

Oh no robin, men are perfect and would never do anything bold, them being saints an' all....

Sarky

They wouldn't be real muslims either, having given in to their desires like that.

seamus

Beruthiel wrote: »

Oh no robin, men are perfect and would never do anything bold, them being saints an' all....

I'm presuming the man would be required to beat and then marry the mistress as punishment for her act of seducing the man.

Islam of course believes that men are feeble-minded lust machines incapable of self-control, and it's up to women to act accordingly.

Penn

Beruthiel wrote: »

Oh no robin, men are perfect and would never do anything bold, them being saints an' all....

That's rubbish. Men are the second-class citizens, and have to give half their earnings to their perfect wives, whereas their wives don't have to give anything to them.

Sure, one could argue that the woman may be beaten if she spends it on anything the husband doesn't like, but that's just nitpicking.

robindch

Barrington wrote: »

So, women aren't treated as second-class, they are treated with respect... except when they step out of line, you're allowed to beat them.

Probably more accurate to say that women are allowed to exercise free will, so long as the choices they freely make are exactly what men want them to be. If they're not, then assault -- for the finest reasons -- is fine.

The parallels with the christian "love me or die" story are all too obvious.

mcmoustache

This question sounds like it could be from a 70's blacksploitation film.

Essentially, dead one's question boils down to "Is it ok to smack my bitch upside da head if she be goin' behind ma back fo lovin'?".

It's a tricky question which has baffled philosophers for centuries. Back in the day when men wiped their arses with their hand, it would be fine.

These days, it's only OK if both parties consent in advance and respect the code word for stop.

robindch

Beruthiel wrote: »

men are perfect and would never do anything bold, them being saints an' all....

I think you'll find that most saints are indeed men

Robert ninja

I'll just leave this here

liamw

robindch wrote: »

Tell me -- if the husband cheats on the woman, it's ok for the woman to assault the husband?

+1, please Dead One enlighten us... using your original logic the woman should 'lightly punish' the husband in order to save the family right?

Victor

dead one wrote: »

2. destroy the family by allowing her wife what she wishes to do
3. Divorce her wife to ruin family...

Are we talking about two women married to each other or a bigamous relationship?

lordgoat

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Don't agree. What if i am in an argument with a vile, nasty and evil person. This person is very good with words, is very manipulative and knows what to say to have maximum horrid effect.

If this person is giving me a hard time with, how do I react? I am not nasty, or evil or very articulate, but I am good with my fists.

The nasty person is not good with their fists. Their weapon is their tongue. My weapon is my fists. The nasty person is using their weapon against me, to the full force. Am I not not retaliate by using my weapon, my fists?

Eh maybe don't join the debate team.

Wibbs

seamus wrote: »

I actually like dead_one, because rather than going on about interpretation-iddly and some-sect-oodly, he's not afraid to be honest about what it is that his religion preaches to him.

For some reason, when confronted with the actual horrors of their religion, so many religious people choose to conveniently dance around the immoral teachings and pretend they don't happen.

dead_one at least has the balls to say that he doesn't believe they're immoral. Most religious people stay religious despite knowing that bug chunks of the stuff is immoral.

+1 He has the courage of his convictions I'll give him that. Wishy washy he aint.

HUNK

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Well it seemed to make J C shut up...

lol, tbh ever since the J C meme I knew that dead_one was going to be next

Genghiz Cohen

HUNK wrote: »

lol, tbh ever since the J C meme I knew that dead_one was going to be next

I was actually considering making one at the same time as the JC one.

(Click on it! Make your own!)

Galvasean

In before a certain poster accuses everyone of being Islamophobes.

Sarky

You islamophobe!

COMBO BREAKAR

ShooterSF

liamw wrote: »

+1, please Dead One enlighten us... using your original logic the woman should 'lightly punish' the husband in order to save the family right?

As has been explained Liam, obviously the woman who misled the married husband should probably be lightly "convinced" not to do it again.

God I feel I should be typing this in black and white replacing the word woman with dame.

dead one

koth wrote: »

so the only way to save the family is to beat the wife?

Like i always say, Family is like an institution, So any member of institution who breaks laws or discipline of institution should be punished so that his/her outrageous behavior doesn't effect future of family.... Wife hitting anytime and for any logic is never permitted in Islam. But there is a condition where God sees to allow the husband to hit his wife, by giving two warnings to stop showing disloyalty.

koth wrote: »

EDIT: what if it's the husband that cheats, dead one? are you okay with the wife beating the "head of the family"?

That's happen in majority western family system.... Because they don't know purpose and creation of family.... Majority of muslims who truly follow islam don't cheat their wives........ I am again using majority of muslims women and muslim men don't cheat themselves..... The condition of punishment which is mentioned in quran is very rare, Quran is solution for humanity, It is solution for your family systems..... Right, Now if a husband cheats her wife, islam gives full support to wife to leave the husband taking her children....

Undergod wrote: »

dead one's misogyny: The Motion Picture Thread!

great, i dont hate women, i hate my evil desires toward women, you see women in prism of your desires, why you don't hate your desires to make woman a symbol of love and peace not symbol of sex....

fatmammycat wrote: »

'punish lightly' I assume means hitting another human to get your own way.

That's rule/law under family system.... If you fear the law then don't do crimes...

fatmammycat wrote: »

Either counselling or divorce. Domestic violence and cheating is already a 'ruined' family.

If a law or rule is violence then why you hang criminal in courts.... Family is greater institution than courts.... The violence in your mind...

Beruthiel wrote: »

Cheating normally only happens if one or both parties in a relationship are no longer interested or love the other.

What makes a person to be cheater in a family, that is weakness in a family system..... If a male is cheater then he is product of weak family system, if a female is cheater then she is also the same case..... Perfect family systems never create cheaters.... That's universal rule, you can apply it on any thing, if you are perfect in your work then you will have perfect result from your work...... So you are saying,"cheating normally only happens if one or both parties in a relationship are no longer interested or love the other". But you aren't seeing root cause of cheating, that is weak family system.... Because no one is responsible for other...

Beruthiel wrote: »

Cheating has nothing to do with how much you care for your children.

Excellent, but cheating has to do with children, how much you effect lives of your children.... If children grow up in such a cheating environment then they would be future cheater.....

Beruthiel wrote: »

If the relationship is over then divorce is the only option.
That does not mean the relationship with your children is over. With consistent effort, your relationship with your children can be great.

So, you are preferring divorce, which brings destruction to family system and future of children, great, but if the matter settle before divorce that isn't preferable...

seamus wrote: »

Many would say that children are better off with separated parents who don't beat eachother rather than living in home where it's normal to be violent against people you've supposed to love.

You are interpreting things out of context, as your out of context interpretations match with the hypothesis of people so they prefer it, but they don't see ignorance, why because they aren't educated about true islamic concept of family system... The wife hitting isn't common in islamic family systems and it is very rare, it has restricted social context... that is if wife is disloyal to husband and even after getting warnings from husband she continues her disloyaltly and continues even after the hitting... then no more hitting the matter should be solved by divorce....

seamus wrote: »

No husband or wife has a right to "punish" the other for their mistakes. That's not how relationships work. It's the duty of the person who makes a mistake to make amends, not the duty of the other to meet out a punishment.

So any husband or wife has a right to cheat themselves... You are seeing just one face of coin but neglecting other which is dark, why you don't tell me who created these new relations of girlfriend/boyfriends .... Why you don't admit it is weak part in your family systems.... You give lectures on wife hitting but neglect prostitutes/pimps/girl friends which is greater violence in your society then hitting....... If you hit any member of family that she would not be a girlfriend/prostitute/hooker/bed sharer then that hitting is recoverable than of irrecoverable injuries...... i hope you would get the point with my poor English...

Galvasean wrote: »

Could you clarify your definition of the word 'lightly' as I don't think everyone here will have the same definition as you.

have you ever hit your son, if not then it is same as person hits his son to make him on correct path...

kylith wrote: »

If someone is cheating then the marriage is ruined and it's better for all concerned if they call it a day and seperate. What if partner Y has no proof that X is cheating? Is he justified in beating his wife because of his suspicions? What is considered evidence of unfaithfulness? Being caught in flagrante? Texting/calling a man? Looking at men in the street?

See, it not an episode from X-files... we are talking about reality... in family institution, head of family isn't allowed to beat/hit any member without proper investigation.... The proper procedure for that is, he should proper investigate the method and then give warning You know something about warning, Suppose a person x steels things and y is police officer, y warns x time and again to stop stealing but one day y catches x, so why you don't blame x who violate law or warnings... I hope it's very clear..

kylith wrote: »

I too am interested in dead one's opinion on whether or not it's ok for a woman to beat a her husband if he's discovered to have cheated.

If she has power to beat the husband then she can beat him, but if not Islam fully supports in case of divorce with children...

Delirium

dead one wrote: »

Like i always say, Family is like an institution, So any member of institution who breaks laws or discipline of institution should be punished so that his/her outrageous behavior doesn't effect future of family.... Wife hitting anytime and for any logic is never permitted in Islam. But there is a condition where God sees to allow the husband to hit his wife, by giving two warnings to stop showing disloyalty.

Nope, thats not what your saying because only the wife is to be beaten. As we see in the following part of your post, husbands don't cheat :rolleyes:

So any member who cheats isn't punished, it's just women who cheat that are to be punished. And btw, to say that hitting a wife is never permitted and then to say that there special rules that allow it, means that Islam does allow wife beating.

That's happen in majority western family system.... Because they don't now purpose and creation of family.... Majority of muslims who truly follow islam don't cheat their wives........ I am again using majority of muslims women and muslim men don't cheat themselves..... The condition of punishment which is mentioned in quran is very rare, Quran is solution for humanity, It is solution for your family systems..... Right, Now if a husband cheats her wife, islam gives full support to wife to leave the husband taking her children....

So a wife isn't allowed to beat her husband. Yeah, I can see how that's fair:rolleyes:

Beating someone for cheating is a terrible response, not the way an adult should act when faced with a problem.

Gordon

I'm lost, are some people trying to make sense of religion or something?

robindch

dead one wrote: »

head of family isn't allowed to beat/hit any member without proper investigation....

By the police, one hopes.