Asked to leave collateral behind me in a retail outlet

Freiheit

Had a piercing done,I took it for granted that Laser card would be an acceptable form of payment. (Ok I probably should have asked in advance,but as cards almost universaly acceptable I took it for granted). However as I proceeded to pay I was then informed that only cash was acceptable and that I must leave 'collateral' behind,in the shape of my wallet,jacket,bag or something while I left to withdraw cash. While it wasn't personal I felt somewhat aggrieved initially,still do a little even though it wasn't personal. Definitely will cause me to consider whether to use their services again.

What do others think?.

foggy_lad

A bit silly to think that some back street tattoo & piercing shop would accept any debit or credit card, i would have thought most of their work is cash only for revenue purposes.

On the other hand you got a piercing and were going to walk out without paying so why wouldn't they insist on you leaving something valuable while you got the cash? Do you know the people in the shop well? Are they friends?

MagicMarker

I think any reasonable person would have offered to leave something behind, they shouldn't even have to ask.

Freiheit

Oh yes hadn't thought of that. Is it to evade the Revenue generally when cards are not accepted?. Yeah perhaps my level of trust is higher than most,maybe parts of the general populace is not as honest as me. Maybe such rules are required for their benefit.

Paulw

Freiheit wrote: »

Is it to evade the Revenue generally when cards are not accepted?

No, absolutely not, it's more usually due to the charges that the retailer pays for using laser/debit cards.

January

foggy_lad wrote: »

A bit silly to think that some back street tattoo & piercing shop would accept any debit or credit card, i would have thought most of their work is cash only for revenue purposes.

On the other hand you got a piercing and were going to walk out without paying so why wouldn't they insist on you leaving something valuable while you got the cash? Do you know the people in the shop well? Are they friends?

:rolleyes:

Yes, the big bad piercer is evading paying his taxes... that's why he hasn't got a credit card machine...

The charges for the machine are probably not worth paying, they're very high. So the business owner decided to save some money and not get one and operate cash only...

Mr. Presentable

Paulw wrote: »

No, absolutely not, it's more usually due to the charges that the retailer pays for using laser/debit cards.

This.

You pay a %, a service charge, and a line rental for the phone line. That's why I don't have one. Nothing to do with traceability

dudara

As far as I'm concerned, it was a perfectly reasonable request on the part of the shop. They have to cover themselves.

This wasn't a personal affront to you. Look at it from the viewpoint of the retailer.

rubadub

Freiheit wrote: »

Definitely will cause me to consider whether to use their services again.

What do others think?.

If it was your shop/business what would you have done?

I wonder what their rights were, e.g. could they have called the gardai on you.

What they did seems perfectly reasonable to me, I would have been praising them and had no problem using them again.

the groutch

if you already had the piercing done, it's not unreasonable that they wanted to hold onto something of value, otherwise you could just do a runner and get a free piercing.

seamus

rubadub wrote: »

I wonder what their rights were, e.g. could they have called the gardai on you.

They could contact the Gardai, but not to arrest him/her. They cannot stop you from leaving, nor can they legally request collateral to ensure that you return.

In certain circumstances, a business may enforce a lien, where they already have your property, and withhold it until you pay your bill - e.g. a mechanic who has serviced your car.

But in this case, there would be no such way of doing it.

The legally correct thing to do is for the business to issue an invoice and ask you to return and pay it.
They would be well within their rights to ask for your name & address, and even to ask for proof of such. If you refused to offer your details & proof (or couldn't), it would not be inappropriate to contact the Gardai so that they can ascertain your identity.

They however would have no right to detain you. If you attempted to leave the shop without providing your contact details, they could rightly assume that you were not intending to pay and therefore were committing theft, and they could exercise a citizen's arrest.

The grey area above is that if you refuse to give evidence of your identity, but tell them that you will be back in five minutes with the money, then they cannot safely exercise a citizen's arrest (it is not theft to leave without paying unless you never intend to pay) and therefore they cannot detain you.

However, the most reasonable solution is the one they offered; leave something of yours in the shop and go off to get money. Minimal hassle all 'round. Demanding proof of identity and all that seems to me would be more offensive than asking for collateral.

Resi12

I would have offered myself, it's like being in the same situation in a restaurant. It only makes sense because that worker is only thinking logically. Imagine if they did do it, gave someone the benefit of the doubt only for them to do a runner. How would they explain their naivety and loss of a couple hundred euro to their boss?

You can't take it personally as they don't know you or if you are the type of person to be running out on a bill.

rubadub

foggy_lad wrote: »

A bit silly to think that some back street tattoo & piercing shop would accept any debit or credit card

True, you often see threads asking what online stores take laser, its safer to preume they do not. Sure Lidl don't even take credit cards, only laser I think.

Forest Master

Freiheit wrote: »

Yeah perhaps my level of trust is higher than most,maybe parts of the general populace is not as honest as me. Maybe such rules are required for their benefit.

What an arrogant stuck-up tone. Maybe most of the general populace aren't ignorant enough to assume Laser Cards are accepted everywhere, and arrogant enough to think they can avail of a service & leave without paying. And maybe the "collateral" rules just apply to those untrustworthy sorts who frequent tattoo & piercing joints.

Nanazolie

rubadub wrote: »

True, you often see threads asking what online stores take laser, its safer to preume they do not. Sure Lidl don't even take credit cards, only laser I think.

Lidl and Aldi also accept Visa Debit

Melendez

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Oryx

Melendez wrote: »

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No, they won't. I'm 21 years in retail, and if you let someone out the door without paying 99% of the time you will never see them again.

Nanazolie

Melendez wrote: »

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you'd be out of business pretty fast if you were so trusting. Some people would definitively come back (me) but most would not (all my in laws. That's about 20 of them)

seamus

Oryx wrote: »

No, they won't. I'm 21 years in retail, and if you let someone out the door without paying 99% of the time you will never see them again.

Well I certainly wouldn't say 99%, but it would depend on where you are and what you're selling.

In small rural setting, people would be more likely to come back in, even if they're from out of the area.

In a very niche shop (like a comic book shop), an enthusiast/regular would be likely to return and pay for what they bought.

But in a faceless department store or supermarket in a busy town or city, if you let most people out the door, they'll be gone.

I would also say that people in their late teens/early 20's (i.e. students) would be more likely to do a legger than someone in their thirties. Since a piercer will typically see more of the former coming through their doors, they've probably been stung before and so insist on collateral now.

Melendez

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Tayla

seamus wrote: »

They could contact the Gardai, but not to arrest him/her. They cannot stop you from leaving, nor can they legally request collateral to ensure that you return.

In certain circumstances, a business may enforce a lien, where they already have your property, and withhold it until you pay your bill - e.g. a mechanic who has serviced your car.

But in this case, there would be no such way of doing it.

The legally correct thing to do is for the business to issue an invoice and ask you to return and pay it.
leave the shop without providing your contact details, they could rightly assume that you were not intending to pay and therefore were committing theft, and they could exercise a citizen's arrest.

.

This happened to my mother in law the other day too, she had received a new debit card and had activated and used it but when she tried to pay for petrol with it it wouldn't work, It had worked everywhere else so it must have been their own card machine so they told her she had to wait for someone to bring her the money out to her.

The petrol station wasn't in walking distance of another ATM so she had to wait for around an hour for someone to come out.

I told she should have just left and told them to send her out the bill.

I wouldn't let anyone hold me somewhere against my will like that when there is no law that entitles them to do so.

Oryx

Certainly I've seen honest people come back. I even had conscience money left in the shop once. But I've had people I know, people whose details I had, people who promised me faithfully they would not let me down, all stung me for money. The problem is you can't tell the good from the bad and you can't trust someones word anymore.

seamus

Tayla wrote: »

The petrol station wasn't in walking distance of another ATM so she had to wait for around an hour for someone to come out.

I told she should have just left and told them to send her out the bill.

The problem is that many people assume that as soon as you cross the threshold of the shop to leave, and you haven't paid, that you are a thief.
In reality, theft requires the intention to deprive the property owner of their property. If you forget to pay for something and return to the shop as soon as you notice it, you cannot be done for theft. Likewise if you forget to pay for something and never remember that you needed to pay for it, technically it's not theft. Though best of luck proving that you simply forgot about it.

In the case of a petrol station, provide the station with your reg & your name and address and tell them that you're leaving in your car to get money. You can be arrested for theft, but you could never be prosecuted because they would have to prove that you never intended to pay for the petrol.
Of course, by the time the Gardai even bothered looking for you, you'd be back in the petrol station with the money

Tayla

seamus wrote: »

In the case of a petrol station, provide the station with your reg & your name and address and tell them that you're leaving in your car to get money. You can be arrested for theft, but you could never be prosecuted because they would have to prove that you never intended to pay for the petrol.
Of course, by the time the Gardai even bothered looking for you, you'd be back in the petrol station with the money

If you told them you were leaving to get money and they said they were going to call the Gardai and you waited until they got there...what would they say to you anyway?

It's not like they're going to give you a garda escort to get the money out, they can't arrest you either!

Plazaman

Tayla wrote: »

This happened to my mother in law the other day too, she had received a new debit card and had activated and used it but when she tried to pay for petrol with it it wouldn't work, It had worked everywhere else so it must have been their own card machine so they told her she had to wait for someone to bring her the money out to her.

The petrol station wasn't in walking distance of another ATM so she had to wait for around an hour for someone to come out.

I told she should have just left and told them to send her out the bill.

I wouldn't let anyone hold me somewhere against my will like that when there is no law that entitles them to do so.

Hmmm, sorry no sympathy for your mum-in-law. She was buying petrol so presumably she had a car so presumably she had her drivers licence with her. She could have got them to take the details off the drivers licence and then say she'd be back in 10 minutes with cash (or however long it took to drive to the nearest ATM and back).

OP you were provided with the service requested so payment is necessary. Unless you had provided ID to the shop owner to prove who you were, then of course they'd look for something to hold to ensure you'd come back. I'm sure your a 100% honest but thats from the other side of a computer screen, if you were in my shop then suspicions would abound.

Disclaimer for Tax Purposes: I don't own a shop.

seamus

If you told them you were leaving to get money and they said they were going to call the Gardai and you waited until they got there...what would they say to you anyway?

What would the Gardai say to you?

The Gardai would check your reg on Pulse, confirm your name & address and tell you to head off and get the money and give the garage a bollocking for wasting their time.

Tayla

Plazaman wrote: »

Hmmm, sorry no sympathy for your mum-in-law. She was buying petrol so presumably she had a car so presumably she had her drivers licence with her. She could have got them to take the details off the drivers licence and then say she'd be back in 10 minutes with cash (or however long it took to drive to the nearest ATM and back).

OP you were provided with the service requested so payment is necessary. Unless you had provided ID to the shop owner to prove who you were, then of course they'd look for something to hold to ensure you'd come back. I'm sure your a 100% honest but thats from the other side of a computer screen, if you were in my shop then suspicions would abound.

Disclaimer for Tax Purposes: I don't own a shop.

Noones looking for sympathy actually

Yes she could have but most people aren't aware of their rights in this country. They told her she 'had' to stay and she thought she did.

Tayla

seamus wrote: »

What would the Gardai say to you?

The Gardai would check your reg on Pulse, confirm your name & address and tell you to head off and get the money and give the garage a bollocking for wasting their time.

Yes so i'd tell them I was leaving and to ring the guards while I was there (if they didn't want me to leave) rather than me head off and the garage exaggerate the story to the guards!

Freiheit

Thanks all. I accept that it wasn't personal but at the time felt bad. To make matters just a tincie weencie bit worse when I returned with the money he informed me that he didn't have change and to see if I could get it from a nearby Cafe!:)....change was only 10 Euro and he didn't have it!

Nanazolie

Freiheit wrote: »

Thanks all. I accept that it wasn't personal but at the time felt bad. To make matters just a tincie weencie bit worse when I returned with the money he informed me that he didn't have change and to see if I could get it from a nearby Cafe!:)....change was only 10 Euro and he didn't have it!

Now, THAT's bad customer service. I can understand why he asked you to leave some collateral while you were getting the cash, but that HE asked you to get some change is a step too far. He should have either get the change himself or offered the service for free as a goodwill gesture

Mister Dread

It is a civil debt. You offered to pay and you told them you intended to pay. They have no right to ask for you to leave anything.

P. Breathnach

Mister Dread wrote: »

It is a civil debt. You offered to pay and you told them you intended to pay. They have no right to ask for you to leave anything.

Equally, a customer in a business that operates on a cash-only basis has no right to force that business to grant credit.

It is quite reasonable for a business to ask for security for a debt, and they have every right to do so.

gerrycollins

seamus wrote: »

The problem is that many people assume that as soon as you cross the threshold of the shop to leave, and you haven't paid, that you are a thief.
In reality, theft requires the intention to deprive the property owner of their property. If you forget to pay for something and return to the shop as soon as you notice it, you cannot be done for theft. Likewise if you forget to pay for something and never remember that you needed to pay for it, technically it's not theft. Though best of luck proving that you simply forgot about it.

how many times have i heard as a retailer any person I stop "oh I was coming back to pay for it"

shop workers et al are not mind readers so it is a safe to assume anybody who leaves the store without permission is not intending to pay for thier goods.if they leave with the shop workers/owners permission then it cannot be taken as theft even if they never return to pay for it. then it becomes a civil case between the two parties.

if you leave without paying and return then that the retailers good luck and your good nature.

Mister Dread

You don't need permission to leave the shop. It's a civil debt, not a crime.

MagicMarker

Next time I go shopping I'll just be sure to shout out ''I intend to pay for these items'' before running out of the shop, sure it's not a crime.

Mister Dread

MagicMarker wrote: »

Next time I go shopping I'll just be sure to shout out ''I intend to pay for these items'' before running out of the shop, sure it's not a crime.

It's a crime if you don't return or don't intend to pay. Given that they are items that you don't have to take then it would be taken as a crime. Take it from the man who decides if it's a crime.

sbsquarepants

Tayla wrote: »

This happened to my mother in law the other day too, she had received a new debit card and had activated and used it but when she tried to pay for petrol with it it wouldn't work, It had worked everywhere else so it must have been their own card machine so they told her she had to wait for someone to bring her the money out to her.

The petrol station wasn't in walking distance of another ATM so she had to wait for around an hour for someone to come out.

I told she should have just left and told them to send her out the bill.

I wouldn't let anyone hold me somewhere against my will like that when there is no law that entitles them to do so.

Much the same happend to me a while back, I filled up the car and then realised i had no money on me, no problem there's an atm in the shop - out of order. I explained it to the cashier, who called the manager, who appeared with a form for me to sign promising to pay within 48 hours, took my reg and let me go about my business. A bit embarrasing but not as bad as having to wait an hour for someone to come rescue you!
It's not like your going to leave the country for a tank of petrol!

sbsquarepants

Mister Dread wrote: »

It's a crime if you don't return or don't intend to pay. Given that they are items that you don't have to take then it would be taken as a crime. Take it from the man who decides if it's a crime.

Are you Mister Dread, or Judge Dread?

gerrycollins

Mister Dread wrote: »

You don't need permission to leave the shop. It's a civil debt, not a crime.

the debt only occurs when the sale contract has completed. if you do not close the contract ie proceede throught the tills and pay up(replace pay up with leave with permission where appropiate) then the contract does not complete and thus there is no debt between two parties and as such it is theft

Mister Dread

gerrycollins wrote: »

the debt only occurs when the sale contract has completed. if you do not close the contract ie proceede throught the tills and pay up(replace pay up with leave with permission where appropiate) then the contract does not complete and thus there is no debt between two parties and as such it is theft

Nah you don't really know what you're talking about. That "leave with permission" thing doesn't exist. If I was in that situation, I'd leave a business card or write my name and address on a piece of paper and say bill me please. No theft and no permission to leave needed.

A purchase of goods is a bit different than a situation where the goods/service have already been irreversably provided.

gerrycollins

Mister Dread wrote: »

Nah you don't really know what you're talking about. That "leave with permission" thing doesn't exist. If I was in that situation, I'd leave a business card or write my name and address on a piece of paper and say bill me please. No theft and no permission to leave needed.

A purchase of goods is a bit different than a situation where the goods/service have already been irreversably provided.

i have stopped numerous people after they have left shops without paying and they were suscessfully prosecuted in court for their offences. ps im not a secuirity guard.

where the goods were provided eg petrol station, before payment could take place, most petrol stations have a policy regarding these instances such as a form to fill out and as such you have been given permission to leave without paying on the trust of you returning to pay for the goods.obviously certain details that can lead to your where abouts must be the details.

the retailer is taking a risk and some dont take that risk and thats their choice.

davo10

Mister Dread wrote: »

Nah you don't really know what you're talking about. That "leave with permission" thing doesn't exist. If I was in that situation, I'd leave a business card or write my name and address on a piece of paper and say bill me please. No theft and no permission to leave needed.

A purchase of goods is a bit different than a situation where the goods/service have already been irreversably provided.

Are you for real or just deluded?. Do you think you can walk out of Tesco's with a bag of groceries and then tell the manager when the alarm goes off "bill me please"?, that is theft, if it isn't what is to stop everyone from doing this?. Stop with the rubbish.

Cabaal

Mister Dread wrote: »

Nah you don't really know what you're talking about. That "leave with permission" thing doesn't exist. If I was in that situation, I'd leave a business card or write my name and address on a piece of paper and say bill me please. No theft and no permission to leave needed.

Your either clueless or trolling or just both,

I've never heard such nonsense, I suggest you do what your claiming in Tesco or Dunnes and just see how it goes for you....

:rolleyes:

Mister Dread

You really are a special group. If you go up to a till in a shop and say "I have no money to pay for this so I'm going to walk out" they will just ask you to leave the items behind. If you don't then it is theft.

It's a different story with a service or fuel where you can't just leave it. In that case you can walk out and ther is no crime once you show intention to pay. If they then call me out I will ask them did they leave a name and number or address. If they did then it is a civil debt but I will keep note of the name.

Beggared

The oddest part is that a cash only business didn't have a €10 note to give the OP in change. That sounds like they were trying to manouevre the OP into leaving a €10 tip while they were holding whatever collateral they had.

davo10

Cabaal wrote: »

Your either clueless or trolling or just both,

I've never heard such nonsense, I suggest you do what your claiming in Tesco or Dunnes and just see how it goes for you....

:rolleyes:

He must be trolling, it would be mind-boggling to think in this day and age when Irish people are so aware of economic and consumer principles that someone would believe that just because there isn't a tangible exchange of goods, that consumer law/rights do not apply. Using his logic, services such as a taxi ride, bus/train ride, cinema, Doctor visit, hair cut etc do not have to be paid for like a tin of peas because nothing of tangible mass is recieved. He must be trolling or else he is a child, i just asked my 8yr old son if he thought he would not have to pay for a hair cut after having because it is not a "real" item, he said he would have to.

Mister Dread

davo10 wrote: »

He must be trolling, it would be mind-boggling to think in this day and age when Irish people are so aware of economic and consumer principles that someone would believe that just because there isn't a tangible exchange of goods, that consumer law/rights do not apply. Using his logic, services such as a taxi ride, bus/train ride, cinema, Doctor visit, hair cut etc do not have to be paid for like a tin of peas because nothing of tangible mass is recieved. He must be trolling or else he is a child, i just asked my 8yr old son if he thought he would not have to pay for a hair cut after having because it is not a "real" item, he said he would have to.

Your son is thick as ****, just like you.

davo10

Mister Dread wrote: »

Your son is thick as ****, just like you.

He may well be, but he has a better grasp of consumerism than you.

Beggared

Mister Dread wrote: »

Your son is thick as ****, just like you.

That's how you lose arguments when you are already right. :rolleyes:

davo10

Beggared wrote: »

The oddest part is that a cash only business didn't have a €10 note to give the OP in change. That sounds like they were trying to manouevre the OP into leaving a €10 tip while they were holding whatever collateral they had.

Or like a lot of small service providers they start the day with a float of 5's, 10's, 20's etc and if the typical service charge is €7 you soon exhaust your €10's if a number of customers pay with €20 notes.

I think this is all going a little off OP's topic, OP asked what people think of being asked to leave something in the shop while money was obtained. The general opinion is that this was no big thing as the service provider had no way of being certain that OP would return with the money as no previous relationship existed and the vendoe had no way of finding the OP if he/she did not return to pay. As said small businesses often do not have laser/visa machines due to the rental/transaction costs.

gerrycollins

Mister Dread wrote: »

You really are a special group. If you go up to a till in a shop and say "I have no money to pay for this so I'm going to walk out" they will just ask you to leave the items behind. If you don't then it is theft.

thats perfectly fine you small local who knows you might let you away until the next time your in. again the retailer is giving you permission

Mister Dread wrote: »

It's a different story with a service or fuel where you can't just leave it. In that case you can walk out and ther is no crime once you show intention to pay. If they then call me out I will ask them did they leave a name and number or address. If they did then it is a civil debt but I will keep note of the name.

thats the crux of my argument, you cannot do this without permission post eg.filling your car, and that would be to make arrangements with the retailer before leaving the premises. how can you show intention to pay(now or later) unless you discuss so with the shop worker or manager?

i seriously doubt you are suggesting to drive away from the petrol station and if the guards catch up after you all your going to say as a get out of jail card is that you had intentions of paying later????