clamped while on mercy mission

firefly2327

I was clamped on Saturday night by NCPS while on a genuine emergency mercy mission, at which the Gardai were in attendance.
I hadn’t been able to get in touch with my mother for two days and became worried about her due to her medical condition. My brother lives across the road from her and rang to say that there was evidence that she was inside her ground-floor apartment but could not respond. I immediately drove to her residence and as there was no parking out front (double yellow lines) I drove to the rear of her apartment and parked 30-40 yards from her window in the residents only carpark, where no individual parking spots are marked.

Having seen the evidence for myself I, shaking, rang the Gardai and asked them to come as we wished to break into the apartment. I went across the road to take care of my brothers kids while he, with Garda assistance, gained access through the rear window. When I rang about half and hour later, I found out my mother had indeed been inside and unable to respond, and further more was told by my brother that my car had been clamped.

I ran over to the clampers to ask why and they said I had no parking permit. I explained the emergency situation, they said they didn’t know that it was my car. Absolute rubbish! My brother (who was still there repairing the window, the Gardai having left) told them from the start. Then they said that if he hadn’t had such an attitude, they may not have clamped me…… seriously. So, 120 euro to get my car back.

It gets worse. NCPS left, then I left to borrow a car to use to retrieve the belongings from my car. When I returned, NCPS and Gardai were there. NCPS said someone had tried to break clamp off my car so fined me an extra 65 euro. They accused my brother and gardai threatened to arrest him. So, in the presence of the Gardai and NCPS I rang NCPS controller and explained situation and debated reason behind my parking there. Gardai were willing to confirm to controller the nature of the emergency situation. Controller was rude and unhelpful. Refused to negotiate and when I asked him politely to stop calling me ‘Mam’ he said he I will call you Mam. Ignorant sod.

Anyways, any suggestions as to what I should do, without getting in trouble with the law? This is important, I really don’t want any criminal record. I do need to do some maintenance to my car (UK reg and MOT due soon…). Front wheels need looking at. If I remove clamped wheel clamp remains on car as it is attached to something in axle area. Am unemployed following redundancy and not claiming state benefits so am officially skint! Was looking into selling car due to finances so may have to abandon the car to NCPS now. My first car and am devastated…. Plus seriously out of pocket.

If I had the finances I would take this all the way to the courts, as high as I needed to go. These guys are ruthless.

johnos1984

IF you can leave the car parked up for 5 days the clamp will be taken off as they will not be making money leaving it there

firefly2327

firefly2327 wrote: »

............ Am unemployed following redundancy and not claiming state benefits so am officially skint! .........

Claim state benefits if you are entitled to them

johnos1984

RoverJames wrote: »

Claim state benefits if you are entitled to them

Me and my mates had the same attitude for a while when we thought we were holier than thou..... now we claim every cent when we are out of work

firefly2327

Yes, have been living in hope that I would find something again quickly. Country in a bad enough state at the moment without me adding to the burden, but looking like I need to now

johnos1984

firefly2327 wrote: »

Yes, have been living in hope that I would find something again quickly. Country in a bad enough state at the moment without me adding to the burden, but looking like I need to now

I'd leave the car where it is for the moment. If they remove the clamp and you get a bill ignore it unless they were clamping on behalf of the council.

After that get down to your social welfare office tomorrow and start your claim.

Nobody will pat you on the back for being a hero in this current climate. You have all your life to pay the state back with your taxes

squod

firefly2327 wrote: »

NCPS said someone had tried to break clamp off my car so fined me an extra 65 euro. They accused my brother and gardai threatened to arrest him. So, in the presence of the Gardai and NCPS I rang NCPS controller and explained situation and debated reason behind my parking there. Gardai were willing to confirm to controller the nature of the emergency situation.

Gardai threatened to arrest him for what exactly. NCPS nave no rights to clamp your car. Once you asked them to remove it the gard shoulda collered the clampers for illegally clamping your car.

firefly2327

johnos1984 wrote: »

I'd leave the car where it is for the moment. If they remove the clamp and you get a bill ignore it unless they were clamping on behalf of the council.

Mmm. Since the car is registered in the UK and I am technically resident there still, I'd wonder if they'd bill me there? They may get me when I make my move back here official though. I'd be tempted to let them. I'd take it to court.
Of course, this is only an issue if they do remove the clamp, if they dont......

firefly2327

firefly2327 wrote: »

Yes, have been living in hope that I would find something again quickly. Country in a bad enough state at the moment without me adding to the burden, but looking like I need to now

In fairness you have been made redundant, you paid taxes while you working, plenty of folks happily have been on the scratch when there were plenty of jobs. You are entitled to sign on, it's not a favour the state are doing for you, it is your entitlement. You are exactly the sort of person social welfare is meant for. Please do sign on asap and claim what is due to you.

Apologies for the off topic mods but persuading this chap to sign on I feel is more beneficial then discussing the clamping issue.

Edit........ mmmmmmmmmmm

firefly2327

squod wrote: »

Gardai threatened to arrest him for what exactly. NCPS nave no rights to clamp your car. Once you asked them to remove it the gard shoulda collered the clampers for illegally clamping your car.

NCPS told the Gardai that he had done it. It's criminal damage if he did, an arrestable offence. As it was a private carpark and there were signs up (not that I was minding the signs in my rush.. having a potentially dead mother lying yards away tends to be a distraction) apparently they were withing their rights to clamp. They repeatedly said that they could do nothing to get the clamp removed, none of their business.

johnos1984

firefly2327 wrote: »

johnos1984 wrote: »

I'd leave the car where it is for the moment. If they remove the clamp and you get a bill ignore it unless they were clamping on behalf of the council.

Mmm. Since the car is registered in the UK and I am technically resident there still, I'd wonder if they'd bill me there? They may get me when I make my move back here official though. I'd be tempted to let them. I'd take it to court.
Of course, this is only an issue if they do remove the clamp, if they dont......

They will removed if its on the car for 5-7 days and no contact is made by you.

It's a case of who breaks first.

Of course if the clamp is already damaged maybe in MIGHT just happen to fall off the rest of the way........

firefly2327

RoverJames wrote: »

In fairness you have been made redundant, you paid taxes while you working, .

Yep, but worked in UK. Have made enquiries and apparently I can claim my UK benefits here, provided I work for at least one week here first. Unfortunately I'm not very employable as far as the more abundant jobs are concerned (over qualified - so much for bloody education) and jobs in my profession are extremely scarce... Will likely be returning to UK (minus car!) so that I can claim benefits in order to feed myself. Strange world

Atlantic Dawn

firefly2327 wrote: »

NCPS told the Gardai that he had done it. It's criminal damage if he did, an arrestable offence. As it was a private carpark and there were signs up (not that I was minding the signs in my rush.. having a potentially dead mother lying yards away tends to be a distraction) apparently they were withing their rights to clamp. They repeatedly said that they could do nothing to get the clamp removed, none of their business.

NCPS interfered with the free movement of your vehicle which is a criminal offence as they have no authority to do so, they operate in a completely unlicensed area in Ireland and will never ever take a person to court for removing one of their clamps as it will make be thrown straight out of court. Personally I would cut it off whether I had to do it with a nail file and spend a month doing it, I wouldn't give them one cent and if the Gardaí are getting involved and citing criminal damage I would respond by quoting the Road Traffic Act and I would take their badge number and report them to the Garda Ombudsman.

John_Mc

I removed 3 NCPS clamps off cars parked beside each other and never heard anything about it. They're exploiting a legal grey area and most people make the mistake of paying.

Wait until the car is on it's own so there are no witnesses. Take your trusty bolt cutters and you'll have it off in no time. The biggest problem is responsibly getting rid of the clamp. DO NOT LEAVE IT THERE as it's evidence of criminal damage. That's the only way you'll get in trouble.

DO NOT PAY THOSE F******!

dougie-lampkin

firefly2327 wrote: »

seriously. So, 120 euro to get my car back.
...
It gets worse. NCPS left, then I left to borrow a car to use to retrieve the belongings from my car. When I returned, NCPS and Gardai were there. NCPS said someone had tried to break clamp off my car so fined me an extra 65 euro. They accused my brother and gardai threatened to arrest him.

You might get back onto the Gardai that threatened to arrest your brother and get them to read the law for themselves. The clamper is the only person who has broken the law here. Don't accept their inevitable "ah sure that's a civil matter" line for an answer. It's clearly laid out that the clamper has committed a criminal and arrestable offence by immobilising your car in a public place. Privately owned car park or not, you were able to drive in there, making it a public place in the law.

You're also well within your rights to do whatever you so wish to whatever they've decided to attach to your car. They've effectively made it your property now. You can call them and demand a supervisor, and then quote the law I've linked to (which they are well aware of) and after a good row they might remove it. Or you can find your own creative way to remove it, preferably one that renders it useless if they want it back.

In fact, if you like you can remove it and send them an invoice for the return of the clamp

firefly2327

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

NCPS interfered with the free movement of your vehicle which is a criminal offence as they have no authority to do so, they operate in a completely unlicensed area in Ireland and will never ever take a person to court for removing one of their clamps as it will make be thrown straight out of court. Personally I would cut it off whether I had to do it with a nail file and spend a month doing it, I wouldn't give them one cent and if the Gardaí are getting involved and citing criminal damage I would respond by quoting the Road Traffic Act and I would take their badge number and report them to the Garda Ombudsman.

Ah, but road traffic matters and criminal damage are two entirely different things.... I don't want to be 'done' for the latter.

langdang

Am I the only one who calculates the cost/benefit of things like this? Surely in this case the benefits outweighed the costs, so you're still a winner even with a fee to pay to have your car released?

Atlantic Dawn

langdang wrote: »

Am I the only one who calculates the cost/benefit of things like this? Surely in this case the benefits outweighed the costs, so you're still a winner even with a fee to pay to have your car released?

That's the reason shipping companies pay pirates off Somalia to have their ships released, not realising that this only encourages the whole thing

squod

I'd have his badge number OP. I'd have probably told the gard off goodo for letting those scumbags near my car in the first place. Report the incident to the ombudsman.

http://www.gardaombudsman.ie/

firefly2327

dougie-lampkin wrote: »

. Privately owned car park or not, you were able to drive in there, making it a public place in the law.

In fact, if you like you can remove it and send them an invoice for the return of the clamp

Dougie, I like your thinking , and thanks for the link
Don't suppose you have any link confirming it's considered a public place in law? I'm digging my heels in deep on this one, I don't want to give them an inch (or cent!), unless I really have to.

Atlantic Dawn

Public place...
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0007/sec0049.html

(iv) by the substitution for the definition of “public place” of the following definition:

“‘public place’ means—

(a) any public road, and

(b) any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;”;

langdang

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

That's the reason shipping companies pay pirates off Somalia to have their ships released, not realising that this only encourages the whole thing

You don't have to go as far as Somalia at all lad! Plenty of vested interests payed out to bumped up cowboys far closer to home ;);)

firefly2327

langdang wrote: »

Am I the only one who calculates the cost/benefit of things like this? Surely in this case the benefits outweighed the costs, so you're still a winner even with a fee to pay to have your car released?

No offence but I think your calculator needs batteries. I fail to see how paying 185 euro, which I have earmarked for little things like food.... ''benefits'' me, especially when i have done nothing wrong.

dougie-lampkin

firefly2327 wrote: »

Dougie, I like your thinking , and thanks for the link
Don't suppose you have any link confirming it's considered a public place in law? I'm digging my heels in deep on this one, I don't want to give them an inch (or cent!), unless I really have to.

Sure

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/print.html#sec3 wrote:

“public place” means any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;

Don't let the Gardai away with threatening your brother either, if you got their shoulder numbers report them to the Ombudsman, they haven't a clue about their job.

langdang

squod wrote: »

I'd have his badge number OP. I'd have probably told the gard off goodo for letting those scumbags near my car in the first place. Report the incident to the ombudsman.

http://www.gardaombudsman.ie/

But have the VRT etc in order first maybe?

langdang

firefly2327 wrote: »

No offence but I think your calculator needs batteries. I fail to see how paying 185 euro, which I have earmarked for little things like food.... ''benefits'' me, especially when i have done nothing wrong.

In the grand scheme of things, it was a genuine emergency worth breaking in a window for? Are your family picking up the tab for the window? It was worth it, ya?

firefly2327

Oh don't worry, everything on the car is kosher, tax, mot and insurance all up to date at present (all UK and fully covered in Europe).

firefly2327

langdang wrote: »

In the grand scheme of things, it was a genuine emergency worth breaking in a window for? Are your family picking up the tab for the window? It was worth it, ya?

The fact that my mam is okay is great, don't get me wrong, I'm happy about that obviously. Would you be happy if some halfwits tried to extort a large chunk of your funds in return for checking on your mother?

Zoltar1

Utter B**TAR*S !!

Hope Mum was OK - I wouldn't seek retribution though, you'll only get stressed out even more and get nowhere with these mindless people.

slimjimmc

dougie-lampkin wrote: »

Sure



Don't let the Gardai away with threatening your brother either, if you got their shoulder numbers report them to the Ombudsman, they haven't a clue about their job.

What stupid advice!!!
NCPS made a complaint of criminal damage by her brother so the Garda was fully within his rights and duty to warn her brother that participating or even intending to participate in such activity could result in his arrest.

langdang

firefly2327 wrote: »

Oh don't worry, everything on the car is kosher, tax, mot and insurance all up to date at present (all UK and fully covered in Europe).

But you're worried about trouble with the law? Why, m'am?

squod

slimjimmc wrote: »

What stupid advice!!!
NCPS made a complaint of criminal damage by her brother so the Garda was fully within his rights and duty to warn her brother that participating or even intending to participate in such activity could result in his arrest.

Huh?

“Without lawful excuse”.

I'd say being illegally clamped could be a lawful excuse.........

MugMugs

OP nobody here can advocate Criminal Damage. It's a disgrace if people do. However I can tell what I would do. I would get a bolt cutters and a friend. Have the friend keep watch for an NCPS van while I cut off the clamp. Then I would bring the clamp on a lovely holiday to the sea side. Or if you're a bit of an Eco warrior, recycle it as scrap metal.

firefly2327

squod wrote: »

I'd say being illegally clamped could be a lawful excuse.........

I'm confused though... and here's a question that will probably raise some eyebrows and show how naiive I am :rolleyes: but if it really is illegal for them to clamp me the way that they did, why are NCPS in business and allowed to be in business, if all they do is clamp people ''illegally'' in private carparks on behalf of management companies? Surely if the law was totally against them they wouldn't be able to operate?

jimmycrackcorm

Nothing stopping you from having your car towed away yourself if you had some way of doing so.

firefly2327

firefly2327 wrote: »

I'm confused though... and here's a question that will probably raise some eyebrows and show how naiive I am :rolleyes: but if it really is illegal for them to clamp me the way that they did, why are NCPS in business and allowed to be in business, if all they do is clamp people ''illegally'' in private carparks on behalf of management companies? Surely if the law was totally against them they wouldn't be able to operate?

It's a grey area of Irish law. No one has gone through the courts yet. But as soon as someone goes through the courts everything will come to light and it will soon be stoped I think.

squod

firefly2327 wrote: »

I'm confused though... and here's a question that will probably raise some eyebrows and show how naiive I am :rolleyes: but if it really is illegal for them to clamp me the way that they did, why are NCPS in business and allowed to be in business, if all they do is clamp people ''illegally'' in private carparks on behalf of management companies? Surely if the law was totally against them they wouldn't be able to operate?

Welcome to Ireland. There's even illegal casino's operating within twenty feet of Garda stations over here. Don't trust anyone.

firefly2327

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Nothing stopping you from having your car towed away yourself if you had some way of doing so.

Oh I'd love to, believe me. Car is parked facing and close to a wall though, and clamp on front :mad:

David09

Shame you don't know anyone who welds, fabricates steel or does truck maintenance.

10 seconds of careful use with oxy-acethylene gas cutting would have that clamp detached.

Most operators keep the gas bottles in the back of their vans. Ideal for situations like this.

Fishtits

Parked in a clamp area, got clamped... whats the problem? the world doesn't stop turning for anyone...

johnos1984

Fishtits wrote: »

Parked in a clamp area, got clamped... whats the problem? the world doesn't stop turning for anyone...

:rolleyes:

One of these days someones going to put your horse out to pasture

firefly2327

Fishtits wrote: »

Parked in a clamp area, got clamped... whats the problem? the world doesn't stop turning for anyone...

I agree, the world indeed does not stop turning for anyone. However, if everyone had your attitude and just turned the other way when bad things happened and failed to question or try to change the situation, we'd still be living in the dark ages.:)

langdang

Fishtits wrote: »

Parked in a clamp area, got clamped... whats the problem? the world doesn't stop turning for anyone...

AND Mother OK, crisis averted, etc.

Agree 100%.

Priorities, like!

ceegee

Out of curiosity, has there been any examples in Irish courts where clamping has been judged to be illegal? Or that removing the clamp is legal?
Seems a commonly accepted fact in this forum that i havent seen elsewhere.

mikemac

ceegee wrote: »

Out of curiosity, has there been any examples in Irish courts where clamping has been judged to be illegal? Or that removing the clamp is legal?
Seems a commonly accepted fact in this forum that i havent seen elsewhere.

Yes, there has

Judge ruled clamping illegal at WIT 18/1/2007
Judge William Harnett ruled at Waterford district court last week that WIT has no authority to clamp the Vehicles of people who park illegally at its cork road campus.

The case originated when a clamp was removed from a car by its owner on January 5th last year. The judge ruled that the owner was entitled to remove something that was stuck to his car by whatever means and if it damages his car, he was entitled to claim damages.

While there where notices up in the car park informing motorists that clamping was in operation, Judge Harnett ruled that there were no laws to support that notice before dismissing the case.

WITSU expects that WIT will seek legal clarification on this matter and that clamping will continue for now. WITSU welcomes the ruling that clamping is illegal, however does not encourage motorists to park in dangerous or unhelpful positions.

kirving

Fishtits wrote: »

Parked in a clamp area, got clamped... whats the problem? the world doesn't stop turning for anyone...

Just the wheels of her car. I think that the offence of immobilising someones car(who needs it for work) and then effectively comitting extortion by suggesting that the clamp was damaged is far worse than the "criminal damage" (I mean come on!) in cutting a chain link.

VolvoMan

I'm relieved to see that at least the OP hasn't paid the bastards yet. Cut the fcuking thing off!

By the way, what proof did NCPS have that the OP's brother did it in the first place? Do they not need proper evidence before they go making wild accusations like that?

langdang

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Just the wheels of her car. I think that the offence of immobilising someones car(who needs it for work) and then effectively comitting extortion by suggesting that the clamp was damaged is far worse than the "criminal damage" (I mean come on!) in cutting a chain link.

Again - cost(or risk) versus benefit...
Sooner or later that's what it all comes down to..

firefly2327

Just found this post by smccarrick from Dec 2010

Clamping on private property is not specifically legislated on at present (though it is proposed to legislate in this area).

At the moment a Management Company may apply a clamp on a car in order to impose a lien or hold on your car pending the payment of a penalty.

This can be legally done, providing there is sufficient signage to warn drivers that clamping is in operation. If signs are not there or are not obvious to the average motorist then the clamping agency could be guilty of creating a nuisance, a trespass to your property and the unlawful interference with the mechanism of a mechanically propelled vehicle (normally used used in car theft). If sufficient warning is not given, the clamping agency, may, expose itself to both civil liability and also to criminal prosecution. A reasonable defense to removing a private clamp is that you were taking reasonable steps to abate the nuisance/trespass and retake possession of your car which was unlawfully interfered with.

If there are sufficient signs and the clamp was lawfully applied then you may be liable for prosecution for criminal damage done to property (formerly known as malicious damage).

Normally people who feel they are being unfairly clamped, are advised to pay the fee and have recorded on the receipt that they are paying 'without prejudice to the right to sue for its return and fair and reasonable compensation for the inconvenience'.

If a clamping company and/or Management Company make a complaint to the Gardai- the person who removed the clamp would be advised to see a criminal solicitor first and only furnish a statement under their advisement. Normally such a statement would be based on the argument that the person who removed the clamp was simply 'abating a nuisance, without intent to cause unnecessary damage', however if clear and present signage is displayed, it is highly likely that damages would be awarded against them.

Clamping on public property is entirely a different matter. END OF QUOTE

So now I'm fuzzy on this again.

firefly2327

VolvoMan wrote: »

I'm relieved to see that at least the OP hasn't paid the bastards yet. Cut the fcuking thing off!

By the way, what proof did NCPS have that the OP's brother did it in the first place? Do they not need proper evidence before they go making wild accusations like that?

They found a tool near the car, a saw or something, so they said. Considering bro was using tools to gain access to apartment and repair window afterwards, there were tools of his floating around. He was parked close to me and both of us parked close to the window, so I can't see their argument having any real substance

x in the city

firefly2327 wrote: »

I was clamped on Saturday night by NCPS while on a genuine emergency mercy mission, at which the Gardai were in attendance. I hadn’t been able to get in touch with my mother for two days and became worried about her due to her medical condition. My brother lives across the road from her and rang to say that there was evidence that she was inside her ground-floor apartment but could not respond. I immediately drove to her residence and as there was no parking out front <MYEYES>(double yellow lines) I drove to the rear of her apartment and parked 30-40 yards from her window in the residents only carpark, where no individual parking spots are marked. Having seen the evidence for myself I, shaking, rang the Gardai and asked them to come as we wished to break into the apartment. I went across the road to take care of my brothers kids while he, with Garda assistance, gained access through the rear window. When I rang about half and hour later, I found out my mother had indeed been inside and unable to respond, and further more was told by my brother that my car had been clamped. I ran over to the clampers to ask why and they said I had no parking permit. I explained the emergency situation, they said they didn’t know that it was my car. Absolute rubbish! My brother (who was still there repairing the window, the Gardai having left) told them from the start. Then they said that if he hadn’t had such an attitude, they may not have clamped me…… seriously. So, 120 euro to get my car back.
It gets worse. NCPS left, then I left to borrow a car to use to retrieve the belongings from my car. When I returned, NCPS and Gardai were there. NCPS said someone had tried to break clamp off my car so fined me an extra 65 euro. They accused my brother and gardai threatened to arrest him. So, in the presence of the Gardai and NCPS I rang NCPS controller and explained situation and debated reason behind my parking there. Gardai were willing to confirm to controller the nature of the emergency situation. Controller was rude and unhelpful. Refused to negotiate and when I asked him politely to stop calling me ‘Mam’ he said he I will call you Mam. Ignorant sod.
Anyways, any suggestions as to what I should do, without getting in trouble with the law? This is important, I really don’t want any criminal record. I do need to do some maintenance to my car (UK reg and MOT due soon…). Front wheels need looking at. If I remove clamped wheel clamp remains on car as it is attached to something in axle area. Am unemployed following redundancy and not claiming state benefits so am officially skint! Was looking into selling car due to finances so may have to abandon the car to NCPS now. My first car and am devastated…. Plus seriously out of pocket.
If I had the finances I would take this all the way to the courts, as high as I needed to go. These guys are ruthless.

.