Clarification regarding EU legislation and action on septic tanks

recedite

Macha wrote: »

As for farmers being inherently against spreading 'nasty stuff' on their land, agriculture is one of the main contributors to water pollution in this country, according to the EPA.

Farmers need to spread nitrates on the land so that your supermarket can keep the shelves stocked with food. They could send the sludge to a treatment plant to be converted into fertilizer pellets, and then buy back the pellets and spread them......... but whats the point in that when they are the end user of it anyway.
Excessive nitrate use in sensitive areas can lead to run-off into streams, and then to algal blooms in lakes, but that is a something that should be monitored separately.

Anyway, for the non-farmer these regulations require regular de-sludging of existing tanks. They do not require that new electrically powered plastic biocycle type tanks be installed.

Macha

recedite wrote: »

Farmers need to spread nitrates on the land so that your supermarket can keep the shelves stocked with food. They could send the sludge to a treatment plant to be converted into fertilizer pellets, and then buy back the pellets and spread them......... but whats the point in that when they are the end user of it anyway.
Excessive nitrate use in sensitive areas can lead to run-off into streams, and then to algal blooms in lakes, but that is a something that should be monitored separately.

The purpose of the Nitrates Directive is to stop run-off into streams. I didn't say it had anything to do with the Waste Framework Directive. I used it to illustrate the fallacy of the idea that farmers don't pollute our waterways, that was being used to justify proposed self-regulation for farmers with septic tanks.

Oldtree

I think that there is a good case here for local Anaerobic Digestion. It seems to be a win win situation for everyone with renewable power produced, a new sustainable local business and with the final output manure being well composted!

http://www.seai.ie/Renewables/Bioenergy/Sources/Anaerobic_Digestion/

Macha

Oldtree wrote: »

I think that there is a good case here for local Anaerobic Digestion. It seems to be a win win situation for everyone with renewable power produced, a new sustainable local business and with the final output manure being well composted!

http://www.seai.ie/Renewables/Bioenergy/Sources/Anaerobic_Digestion/

Do you mean anaerobic digestion for human sewage?

Oldtree

Macha wrote: »

Do you mean anaerobic digestion for human sewage?

Both farm slurry and human sewage and other organic waste inc food waste, I think you would need many sources to make it viable, and done in a sort of co-op way.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8501236.stm

Macha

Oldtree wrote: »

Both farm slurry and human sewage and other organic waste inc food waste, I think you would need many sources to make it viable, and done in a sort of co-op way.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8501236.stm

Ah I see what you mean. But is there an issue with pathogens in human waste being used as fertilizer?

Oldtree

The general bumph would suggest that all is rosy in the garden, but I take from this slightly older paper (now) that proper management and proper mixing is essential for pathogen control in digesters, boils down to the trust issue again.

But still, has to be a better option than the current option of a farmer being allowed to spread his own septic tank contents directly onto his field.

colliemcc

Just after reading this thread and as stated above some good information would be nice.
I have an old tyre septic tank in my house built by my grand father from a set plans. With a soakage pit. Its has never been emptied, and I checked it few weeks ago there was no smell of it and very small crust. About a foot and a half from the top of the tank and just full of brown water under the crust. We do not put any bad stuff down the toilet.

I read somewhere that they are looking for people to put grey water into the tank. This include water from disc washers, showers, sinks and washing machines. But sure water from there will mess up the whole natural cycle of a septic tank.

Oldtree

If I were you I would wonder just where the contents of the septic tank are going if it has never been emptied, a leak perhaps? what happens to your grey water at the moment?

colliemcc

The house has only been used for the weekends the last 10 years. And before that it was just by my grand mother for about 20 years. I checked it a few weeks ago. No leaks anywhere. We are very careful as to what goes down the toilet only toilet paper.

My grey water does not go into my septic tank. I have it running into a soakage pit in my field below the house. If it did go into the tank it would ruin it.?

Where should it be going?

Oldtree

Ahh not a heavy use then, that may be why it does not fill up.

You may feel that grey water would ruin your septic tank, if that was the case then there may be something wrong with the tank.

Building regs:

Drainage systems. H1

(1) A building shall be provided with such a drainage system as may be necessary for the hygienic and adequate disposal of foul water from the building.
(2) A building shall be provided with such a drainage system as may be necessary for the adequate disposal of surface water from the building.
(3) No part of a drainage system conveying foul water shall be connected to a sewer reserved for surface water and no part of a drainage system conveying surface water shall be connected to a sewer reserved for foul water.

"domestic wastewater" means water discharged from kitchens, laundry rooms, lavatories, bathrooms, toilets and similar facilities (soil water and wastewater);
"foul wastewater" means any wastewater comprising domestic wastewater and / or industrial wastewater;

2.1.1 A wastewater treatment system is a septic tank system or a packaged wastewater system. In general a septic tank system is a wastewater treatment system that includes a septic tank mainly for primary treatment, followed by a percolation system in the soil providing secondary and tertiary treatment. A packaged wastewater treatment system, generally uses media and mechanical parts to enhance the treatment of the domestic wastewater and is followed by a polishing filter.

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,24906,en.pdf

there may be more specific recent docs to find about this.

I too am very cautious what goes down the lu and use mainly biodegradable products.

colliemcc

I am concerned about having to connect the grey water to the tank because of detergent and stuff killing the bacteria that the tank depends on to work correctly.

Oldtree

you'll be wanting the Ecover range of household products, available in supermarkets and health food shops:

http://www.organicsupermarket.ie/shop/product/washing-up-liquid-500ml-ecover

colliemcc

Around widgets i live I don't know of anyone putting there grey water into there tank. Most I've spoken to just have it draining into a field beside there house.

Does anyone here throw stuff into the tank to help it along and if so what's are yous using.

recedite

Oldtree wrote: »

you'll be wanting the Ecover range of household products, available in supermarkets and health food shops:

http://www.organicsupermarket.ie/shop/product/washing-up-liquid-500ml-ecover

I wouldn't rely on products with "eco" or "organic" in their name to be any better.....
that particular one lists 2-bromo-2-nitropropane-1,3-d as an ingredient;

an effective antimicrobial in many industrial environments such as paper mills, oil exploration and production facilities, as well as cooling water disinfection plants.

Just the job for killing off your septic tank bacteria!
In all fairness, the septic tank will still function with this stuff going into it with the grey water. Just not as well, and the sludge will build up a lot quicker.
There was a time many years ago when simple systems like the one described by colliemcc were standard, and they worked very well becauseless went into them overall, and certainly a lot less chemicals.
The question of what colliemcc is to do with the grey water? If it is redirected to the tank it will be worse for the tank, but it won't kill all the septic bacteria. On the other hand, letting it go untreated is frowned upon by building regulations. In practice though, a soakaway is fine for it.

A dead rat thrown in to a brand new septic tank is traditional round my way to start it off with a bacteria culture, but there is nothing you can add to a working tank to improve it. Its more what you keep out of it.

colliemcc

Yea people round my way throw a dead animal in every couple of years. If I do have to redirect my grey water into the tank i will be adding a T piece for when they leave.

Oldtree

recedite wrote: »

I wouldn't rely on products with "eco" or "organic" in their name to be any better.....
that particular one lists 2-bromo-2-nitropropane-1,3-d as an ingredient;

Just the job for killing off your septic tank bacteria!
In all fairness, the septic tank will still function with this stuff going into it with the grey water. Just not as well, and the sludge will build up a lot quicker.
There was a time many years ago when simple systems like the one described by colliemcc were standard, and they worked very well becauseless went into them overall, and certainly a lot less chemicals.
The question of what colliemcc is to do with the grey water? If it is redirected to the tank it will be worse for the tank, but it won't kill all the septic bacteria. On the other hand, letting it go untreated is frowned upon by building regulations. In practice though, a soakaway is fine for it.

A dead rat thrown in to a brand new septic tank is traditional round my way to start it off with a bacteria culture, but there is nothing you can add to a working tank to improve it. Its more what you keep out of it.

:eek: not al all what i expected in this product, but unusually i didnt look at the igredients. just looked that up here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronopol

so other than sand and lemon juice have you an alternative to suggest please? What do you use?

when ecover is compared to fairy liquid there would be a clear winner in my mind in the "less damage, etc" stakes, given what little we know of what is in fairy.

http://www.theecologist.org/green_green_living/behind_the_label/268721/behind_the_label_fairy_liquid.html

I was told by a septic tank man that a dead cat would do the job but I couldnt bring myself to do that.

recedite

We just use any brand of washing powders etc. but avoid any kind of "toilet ducks" or disinfectants as these are specifically made and designed for killing bacteria.
The tank needed desludging after about 8 or 9 years.
In theory, a tank like colliemcc just described is self sustainable, and never (or almost never) needs desludging. The bacteria consume the nutrients and then their bodies get carried out in the treated water. As long as the inflow is less than the amount they can consume, and all to their taste, it works.

anotherfinemess

In the UK small systems, defined as domestic septic tanks serving houses with less than 9 people living in them, don't have to register at all.

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/homeandleisure/118753.aspx

So why are we being treated so differently? and by whom? the EU or our own government?

Jim Martin

Oldtree wrote: »

:eek: not al all what i expected in this product, but unusually i didnt look at the igredients. just looked that up here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronopol

so other than sand and lemon juice have you an alternative to suggest please? What do you use?

when ecover is compared to fairy liquid there would be a clear winner in my mind in the "less damage, etc" stakes, given what little we know of what is in fairy.

http://www.theecologist.org/green_green_living/behind_the_label/268721/behind_the_label_fairy_liquid.html

I was told by a septic tank man that a dead cat would do the job but I couldnt bring myself to do that.

I thought a dead chicken was the traditional method!