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Consequences of leaving catholic church. Are they worth it?

  • 27-08-2011 5:05pm
    #1
    Susannahmia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭


    I am have been an atheist for some years now (was previously agnostic). For the past year or so I have been debating with myself weather to formally defect from the catholic church or not.

    (I know at the minute the church is not processing any defections but I assume this can't go on forever.)

    I would love to do it. However the only things that are holding me back are worries about where I will be allowed to be buried, how difficult my funeral may be to be arrange for my family and the possibility of a future spouse wanting a church wedding.

    I live in rural Ireland so there are no secular cemeteries nearby etc.

    Is defection worth the hassle? How do you work around these issues?


Comments

  • #2
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Susannahmia wrote: »
    I am have been an atheist for some years now (was previously agnostic). For the past year or so I have been debating with myself weather to formally defect from the catholic church or not.

    (I know at the minute the church is not processing any defections but I assume this can't go on forever.)

    I would love to do it. However the only things that are holding me back are worries about where I will be allowed to be buried, how difficult my funeral may be to be arrange for my family and the possibility of a future spouse wanting a church wedding.

    I live in rural Ireland so there are no secular cemeteries nearby etc.

    Is defection worth the hassle? How do you work around these issues?
    They changed canon law so defection is no longer possible, so any possible issues are, in your case, moot.

    MrP


  • #3
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,889 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Susannahmia wrote: »
    (I know at the minute the church is not processing any defections but I assume this can't go on forever.)
    says who, though? it's their choice whether or not to process them.


  • #4
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    I can't see any practical benefits to defection.

    However, since they don't appear to maintain a membership list, I also can't see any downsides (for any purposes where being a catholic might be benificial, you could just tell a white lie).


  • #5
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    MrPudding wrote: »
    They changed canon law so defection is no longer possible, so any possible issues are, in your case, moot.

    MrP

    I never knew this as I was going to defect as well. how can they stop you from defecting ?. surely we the people can defect if we wish, how can they stop you ? wouldn't this be a human rights issue to deny you from doing so ?.


  • #6
    heate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭heate


    So hold on you can no longer defect from the church? That sounds like a cult like law to me.


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  • #7
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    zenno wrote: »
    I never knew this as I was going to defect as well. how can they stop you from defecting ?. surely we the people can defect if we wish, how can they stop you ? wouldn't this be a human rights issue to deny you from doing so ?.
    It depends what you mean by 'defect'.

    You can simply stop believing and stop attending the meetings. They maintain that being baptised is an historical fact and they don't maintain a membership list, so defection may not have any meaning anyway.


    [I think you can get automatically discommunicated if you renounce the holy spirit (or somesuch, someone else might fill in the details on that), but for this to make sense, you need to believe in magic in the first place]


  • #8
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    I think you can get automatically discommunicated

    yes this is what I will be doing.


  • #9
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,889 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    zenno wrote: »
    I never knew this as I was going to defect as well. how can they stop you from defecting ?. surely we the people can defect if we wish, how can they stop you ? wouldn't this be a human rights issue to deny you from doing so ?.
    no, because their rules on defection do not affect you in any way, shape or form. what they think of you is not something which falls within the scope of human rights legislation.
    it is an historical fact that you were baptised; even when they were processing apostasy applications, they retained this record (as they should).

    i actually think apostasy is a counterproductive act. it shows you give a **** about their rules.


  • #10
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    no, because their rules on defection do not affect you in any way, shape or form. what they think of you is not something which falls within the scope of human rights legislation.
    it is an historical fact that you were baptised; even when they were processing apostasy applications, they retained this record (as they should).

    i actually think apostasy is a counterproductive act. it shows you give a **** about their rules.

    very good point.


  • #11
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    dvpower wrote: »
    I can't see any practical benefits to defection.
    The practical benefit is that the act of defecting sends a message to this dispicable organisation. Every time they processed a defection another person told them they they no onger wanted to be a part of it.

    Whenever newspapers ran stories about defections that told people that there was an option, there was a way to send these fcukers a message.

    I like to think that the fact they changed the canon law shows the defections were hurting them.
    zenno wrote: »
    I never knew this as I was going to defect as well. how can they stop you from defecting ?. surely we the people can defect if we wish, how can they stop you ? wouldn't this be a human rights issue to deny you from doing so ?.
    heate wrote: »
    So hold on you can no longer defect from the church? That sounds like a cult like law to me.

    It is club rules. The defection process that was used was available through canon law. They simply changed the canon law so the defection option is no longer available.

    This subject has been discussed at length, and it is a tricky one. I am not sure what human right would be infringed by their refusal to remove you from the membership list.

    They hold a baptismal record. This is a record of a historic event, and therefore can't be undone. I think the defection process makes a change to the entry to indicate that you defected, but the baptismal record remains because you were still baptised.

    It might be possible that you could argue that the baptism took place without your consent and was therefore null and void. I don't expect that would work as your parents consented, indeed requested, the baptism on your behalf. If that argument was allowed then we could sue doctors for assault for the vaccinations they gave us as children.

    MrP


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  • #12
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,889 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i have a list of people i would like to have stripped naked, and covered in mustard and paraded through dublin. they have no legal recourse to demand i remove them from this list. and i'm sure bertie wouldn't want the publicity either.

    anyway, it's not too dissimilar a situation with the church.


  • #13
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    ok, it sure seems like a tricky one alright. good job I'm not dealing with this in Iran country

    The death penalty is still applied to apostates by some Muslim states (such as Iran, but not in Christianity or Judaism.


  • #14
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Just kill a few million Jews, this will surely get you excommunicated.

    Oh wait...


  • #15
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    Just kill a few million Jews, this will surely get you excommunicated.

    Oh wait...

    That didn't work? God, what's worse than murder? I suppose you could rape children, that'd surely be worth an excommunication?


  • #16
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Zillah wrote: »
    That didn't work? God, what's worse than murder? I suppose you could rape children, that'd surely be worth an excommunication?
    Nah. What you can do though is organise an abortion for a 9 year old, 36kg rape victim who is pregnant with twins. That will do it.

    http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1883598,00.html

    MrP


  • #17
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    MrPudding wrote: »
    The practical benefit is that the act of defecting sends a message to this dispicable organisation. Every time they processed a defection another person told them they they no onger wanted to be a part of it.
    I doubt the practicality of this. I doubt the RCC give a monkeys if someone defects; I've seen some Christians on here welcoming defections because it rids the church of another heathen, making the church stronger (I'm sure you've noticed how some of them can turn any logic on its head to fit their beliefs).

    They are dispicable in many respects, but they don't seem capable of grasping this themselves, so I don't see much point in telling them.


  • #18
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    zenno wrote: »
    yes this is what I will be doing.
    I don't quite understand this automatic excommunication trick.
    Nothing actually happens when you renounce the holy spirit (or whatever it id you need to do). In order to believe that you are excommunicated, you must be a believer of some sort in the first place.


  • #19
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    dvpower wrote: »
    I doubt the practicality of this. I doubt the RCC give a monkeys if someone defects; I've seen some Christians on here welcoming defections because it rids the church of another heathen, making the church stronger (I'm sure you've noticed how some of them can turn any logic on its head to fit their beliefs).

    They are dispicable in many respects, but they don't seem capable of grasping this themselves, so I don't see much point in telling them.

    Or the much simpler point being that it is utterly pointless to coerce someone to be registered with an organisation that their neither love nor care about. It doesn't matter what organisation that is.


  • #20
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    dvpower wrote: »
    I don't quite understand this automatic excommunication trick.
    Nothing actually happens when you renounce the holy spirit (or whatever it id you need to do). In order to believe that you are excommunicated, you must be a believer of some sort in the first place.

    not at all., I was just looking into this to make sure if I can remove my name from anything got to do with these sh1ts thats all.:rolleyes:


  • #21
    misschoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 303 ✭✭misschoo


    I remember listening to an interview with someone from "Count me Out" on the radio a few months ago. I'm enclosing the link to the site & it does have a mention about the church suspending the defection process.

    http://www.countmeout.ie


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  • #22
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    misschoo wrote: »
    I remember listening to an interview with someone from "Count me Out" on the radio a few months ago. I'm enclosing the link to the site & it does have a mention about the church suspending the defection process.

    http://www.countmeout.ie
    In recent weeks we have been contacted by an increasing number of people whose defections have not been processed, due to the limbo created by this canon law amendment.

    well they better get their head out of their ass and sort it out soon. the catholic church should have all it's power removed within this country, and especially from teaching children.


  • #23
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    zenno wrote: »
    not at all smartass lol, I was just looking into this to make sure if I can remove my name from anything got to do with these sh1ts thats all. also, learn to spell properly will you. thanks.
    Ouch! Bad tempered post.


  • #24
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    dvpower wrote: »
    Ouch! Bad tempered post.

    no man, I took it up wrong I will fix that now. sorry about that, I took it up wrong. :)


    "In parallel to this discussion, an issue arose in countries such as Germany, where citizens are required to pay a Church Tax unless they make a statement to the tax authorities". does this ring a bell.

    just imagine having to pay these sh1ts a tax after all the rape and torture and unsolved deaths they have accumulated from the past.


  • #25
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    philologos wrote: »
    Or the much simpler point being that it is utterly pointless to coerce someone to be registered with an organisation that their neither love nor care about. It doesn't matter what organisation that is.
    I agree. But people do feel that they are 'registered' with them from baptism. If they had any sense, they'ed act like any other business in the PR area (which they are to some extent). They should acknowledge the request, issue a Certificate of Defection (with a nice embossed seal - something to hang on the bathroom wall) and a polite letter that says they're sorry to see you go. They've lost their customer; accept the fact graciously while trying to part on the best possible terms.


  • #26
    Gordon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,524 ✭✭✭✭Gordon


    MrPudding wrote: »
    They simply changed the canon law so the defection option is no longer available.
    Lol, you make it sound like these rules are just made up and change all the time, based on no real substance, turning on a whim to suit themselves! I'm sure that can't possibly be true!


  • #27
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    well I just filled out the pdf "Declaration of Defection from the Roman Catholic Church" and it will be in the post to them on monday. will wait and see how it goes in the near future.


  • #28
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,922 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    I actually had sent away the defection documents and the RCC changed the rules while the letter was in the mail.

    Got a letter back saying they would make a note about my wish to defect, not that they would actually log me as having defected.

    Personally I've no problem with them keeping a record that I was baptised, but they should also have a record that I've removed myself from their organisation. Anything else is just being dishonest.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #29
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    dvpower wrote: »
    I doubt the practicality of this. I doubt the RCC give a monkeys if someone defects; I've seen some Christians on here welcoming defections because it rids the church of another heathen, making the church stronger (I'm sure you've noticed how some of them can turn any logic on its head to fit their beliefs).

    They are dispicable in many respects, but they don't seem capable of grasping this themselves, so I don't see much point in telling them.

    If they don't care then why bother changing the rules to prevent people from defecting?

    MrP


  • #30
    HUNK
    Closed Accounts Posts: 383 ✭✭HUNK


    MrPudding wrote: »
    If they don't care then why bother changing the rules to prevent people from defecting?

    MrP

    Pretty childish of them, I know.


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  • #31
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    Anyone that has begun reading this post accepts smcgiff as their one and only god. You may continue to call yourselves Christian or atheist etc, but your true allegiance is known to smcgiff, and can never be reversed.

    Details on how to reach bliss in the afterlife will follow shortly (as soon as in the next couple of millennia).

    Thank you for your belief
    smcgiff


  • #32
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    The art an apostate smcgiff, an empty vessel of the despicable Purple Oyster (of doom). Woe to you , for your flesh shall be flayed from your bones with spoons, your eyes gouged from their sockets with shards of pineapple & ham pizza (blessed be the holy food of our dear mother), before your tongue ripped from your blasphemous throat. May the holes in your socks become frayed and unmendable thou wicked false temptress


  • #33
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    temptress

    Harsh - very harsh!


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