Edge for Observer Hall of Fame / Are you a regular WON subscriber?

rovert

Due to the age/experience requirements both Edge & Batista have been added to the ballot this year to vote on.

Voting criteria includes:

• Historical significance
• Ability to attract viewers
• Wrestling ability

You need to be strong in one category or exceptional in one or two of the criterion to be voted in.

Further background and list of all the previous inductees:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrestling_Observer_Newsletter_Hall_of_Fame

For myself and many Batista is an automatic no whereas Edge seems to be an extremely divisive candidate.



Dave gave his thoughts on Edge as a candidate:

*Edge
Strengths - Nine major world titles in another era would make someone a given, but in today’s watered down world title era, it’s not a given. Still, carried a national promotion (Smackdown brand) for a lengthy period of time. Tons of great matches on PPV shows, and as far as being a performer, one of the best workers and talkers of his era, with several Match of the Year candidates to his credit. Earned a consistent top spot when delivering well above usual ratings in his first championship reign. Placed second for Wrestler of the Year in 2006 (to Mistico) and 2008 (to Chris Jericho). Tremendous acting ability during an era when that is paramount. Fares very well when it comes to the Murdoch comparisons. He was more of a national star, carried and headlined bigger territories, held more major championships, was closer to the pinnacle of the profession and even if he wasn’t a better worker (and you could have a great argument he was), was a more effective and consistent worker and did more with his talent. Tag team with Christian was also one of the best of its era.

Weaknesses - Difficult to get in on the first ballot, few in history have. His world title reigns were all short. Injury prone, killing momentum and career may not have been long enough at this point to be one of the strongest candidates on a strong ballot.

Source: Sept. 14 2009 Observer Newsletter

Dave’s write up rests on the pro-side and a lot of people bawked at it citing issues such as:

• Thinking Dave totally over rated Edge’s talking and acting abilities.
• Placing too much weight in multiple reigns in the modern era.
• The idea of Edge carrying Smackdown and classifying it as a national promotion of times gone by rather than an at times a bull**** B show brand.
• The fact that most of his best matches came in gimmick matches rather than normal ones. “Cheating” essentially as a workrate candidate.
• As always just thinking there is stronger candidates.

Last six "WWE" inductees:
2004 Undertaker
2005 HHH
2006 Eddy Guerrero
2007 Rock
2010 Chris Jericho
2010 Rey Mysterio

So what do you think on this one lads? Personally I am on the fence leaning on no. As putting his career into perspective is really hard I feel.

johnnycnandy

Edge has got to be included. Possibly the best heel of the last decade (well, after Jericho). Could put on a good match with just about anybody, amazing mic skills, hugely over.

steelcityblues

I prefer both Eddie Guerrero and Rey Mysterio to Edge - but taking an objective look, both were lesser names to fans than the rated R superstar.

If they're in, Edge should be in.

rovert

steelcityblues wrote: »

I prefer both Eddie Guerrero and Rey Mysterio to Edge - but taking an objective look, both were lesser names to fans than the rated R superstar.

If they're in, Edge should be in.

Eddie & Rey innovated a style and had a great matches in Wrestling companies all over the word in different styles.

Crucially they both broke the size & ethnic barriers in the largest Wrestling company in the world.

They are both historically significant.

Not sure about how you quantify who has the lesser name. But Eddy & Rey held up Smackdown's ratings in the mid 00s. Their quarter hours segments would grow ratings by 1+ million people.

Edge was white hot when he cashed in his MITB on Cena at NYR ratings wise but that is about it I think I maybe open to correction.

steelcityblues

Edge had way more big title reigns, and also involved in more main events at Wrestlemania, Summerslam and other PPV's.

I was never a huge fan of the guy, but that makes him a bigger name, without doubt.

starviewadams

If Jericho's in then Edge definitely should be.

I'd say Mysterio and Eddie have/had more name value then Edge.

tvercetti

johnnycnandy wrote: »

Edge has got to be included. Possibly the best heel of the last decade (well, after Jericho). Could put on a good match with just about anybody, amazing mic skills, hugely over.

Can't disagree with anythng said here, I never liked either Jericho or Edge much until I realised my dislike of them was a measure of there ability to play the heel character.

rossie1977

i would put edge in, next to probably cena and hhh he has been the main guy in wwe since the departure of the likes of austin/rock et al

he had an ability to draw fans e.g the segment with lita drew big numbers he mainevented a mania, historical significance; well he along with a few others were responsible for the rebirth of the wwf tag division that was really awful for about a decade, the 2 tlc matches are certainly historically significant

in-ring he was a little under-rated i feel, yes quite a few of his best matches did involve gimmicks but he had great regular matches with kurt angle (backlash 2002), eddie (summerslam 2002), undertaker (wm24), orton (vngeance 2004), jericho (mania 26)

tvercetti

rovert wrote: »

Further background and list of all the previous inductees:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrestling_Observer_Newsletter_Hall_of_Fame

According to this they had a vote whether to remove 2003 inductee Chris Benoit. 53.6% voted to remove him but not the 60% required, I'm not liking the Wrestling Observer for offering this revote and hating the 53.6% of people. Just my opinion.

rovert

tvercetti wrote: »

According to this they had a vote whether to remove 2003 inductee Chris Benoit. 53.6% voted to remove him but not the 60% required, I'm not liking the Wrestling Observer for offering this revote and hating the 53.6% of people. Just my opinion.

tvercetti sorry but I dont think I entirely get this. You dont like the 53.6% who voted to remove him? Yeah?

This is a pretty major topic and one that was discussed in a stand alone thread or two. Recall votes have been done in other Halls of Fame.

He brought disgrace on the industry by killing his wife & child FFS. After the vote was done Meltzer thought that Benoit being kept in was a black eye on the voting process and the Hall of Fame.

jmolloy

I don't see the harm in most of his big matches been gimmick matches. He's a very modern superstar and the fact is his era in wrestling demanded he participate in those matches and he was always a highlight in them.He'll get in but probably notfirst ballot, be suprised if batista ever makes the cut

Cactus Colm

Edge should certainly be put into any pro wrestling hall of fame. He, along with Christian, The Hardys, and the Dudley's basically defined tag team wrestling towards the end of the attitude era. Once he split into singles wrestling it took a couple of pushes before he hit his stride, but once he did he became the best heel in pro wrestling, not only in the WWE. Had good to great matches with a lot of people.

Was part of the reason that smackdown was recognised by many fans to be the better wrestling show, despite WWE seemingly doing all it could to make it a B show.

The only thing I'd say against him, is that he never seemed the top dog, a great main eventer, but never the main guy, there always seemed to be a Triple H, or Randy Orton, or Batista over shadowing him, so Edge seemed just a step below them. (Certainly in the way wwe treated him if nothing else).

tvercetti

rovert wrote: »

tvercetti sorry but I dont think I entirely get this. You dont like the 53.6% who voted to remove him? Yeah?

This is a pretty major topic and one that was discussed in a stand alone thread or two. Recall votes have been done in other Halls of Fame.

He brought disgrace on the industry by killing his wife & child FFS. After the vote was done Meltzer thought that Benoit being kept in was a black eye on the voting process and the Hall of Fame.

thats fair enough, has been discussed and all the points have been made and there was no need to bring it up again on my part, just happy he remains on the list

amacachi

I think he should be in but not yet. He'll look better the longer he's gone, I found it all too easy to forget how good he was while he was around.

rossie1977

Cactus Colm wrote: »

The only thing I'd say against him, is that he never seemed the top dog, a great main eventer, but never the main guy, there always seemed to be a Triple H, or Randy Orton, or Batista over shadowing him, so Edge seemed just a step below them. (Certainly in the way wwe treated him if nothing else).

being the top dog was never a requirement for the observer hall of fame, if you look through the names of those already in like eddie, dibiase sr, piper, jericho, they were never top dogs

which leads onto amacachi point....too early, well angle went in around 2003-04 if memory serves me correct

parker kent

rovert wrote: »

For myself and many Batista is an automatic no whereas Edge seems to be an extremely divisive candidate.

What? Surely you have that backwards?

chopperbyrne

parker kent wrote: »

What? Surely you have that backwards?

Why? Do you think Edge has no place in it, but you could argue on behalf of Batista?

parker kent

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Why? Do you think Edge has no place in it, but you could argue on behalf of Batista?

I actually didn't see the word "no". I read it as saying, Batista was an automatic, i.e an automatic pick. The word no was a small but important word that I missed :P:pac:

rovert

Forgot to update this. The more relevant results to this forum from the week before last. All three below fell below the required 60%:


Votes 2011 2010
Edge 105 46% 18%

Sting 98 43% 20%

Batista 38 17% ----

The increases in Edge and Sting's votes can be attributed to Jericho and Rey being inducted and their votes freed up so to speak. Also Edge got the traditional "retirement bump" in votes where voters kind of step back & review a career properly also many voters express reluctance to vote for performers while they are still active.



Meltzer on new nominees for next year:

Next year will have a lot of additions to the ballot, including two of the strongest candidates among the modern stars who have yet to be voted in, John Cena and Hiroshi Tanahashi, the current top names for WWE and New Japan Pro Wrestling respectively. Also up are Domenic DeNucci, the biggest long-term drawing card for Jim Barnett’s World Championship Wrestling and one of the top stars of the 60s, Mario Milano, another top draw in Australia, “Handsome” Johnny Barend, one of the biggest names ever in Hawaii and a long-time headliner, as well as Brock Lesnar, Dr. Wagner Sr., and Buddy Rose.

glenjamin

Shocked that Sting didn't get in.

rovert

glenjamin wrote: »

Shocked that Sting didn't get in.

Oh no please dont do this to me.

He has been on the ballot for donkeys years. He was never really a draw. I know he has the aura of one and all. But seriously no.

GTR63

Were Jericho & Mysterio ever draws I enjoyed both their work but I am not convinced any of them were main event draws.

Rjd2

GTR63 wrote: »

Were Jericho & Mysterio ever draws I enjoyed both their work but I am not convinced any of them were main event draws.

Rey and Eddie kept Smackdown afloat with the hispanic audience. That along with the huge merch sales are why he got a main event push and why the E are targeting the Mexican audience so hard these days.

he has made them a lot of money over the last few years, more than most really.

rovert

GTR63 wrote: »

Were Jericho & Mysterio ever draws I enjoyed both their work but I am not convinced any of them were main event draws.

Mysterio is a merchandise draw, at one point he & Eddie would get 1 million extra people to turn into their segments on Smackdown. Yes you can point to Starrcade 1997 but the promotion was red hot at the time. Outside of that you cant point to much else. He was given the ball to draw a good few times in WCW but he failed in that role and that position went to someone else or Flair typically.

flahavaj

I see Lesnar is eligible now - can his huge drawing power in UFC be counted in this? If so he must be a shoe in...

GTR63

Surely Sting will get in eventually, if its only draws or merch sellers that get in its a list thats not going to grow based on the poor ppv buyrates that have been happening for quite a while now.

rovert

GTR63 wrote: »

Surely Sting will get in eventually, if its only draws or merch sellers that get in its a list thats not going to grow based on the poor ppv buyrates that have been happening for quite a while now.

Not to be a dick but have you read the first post? That isnt true. Benoit got in solely on work for example.

Sting was a fine wrestler 89-93 or so but never caught on as a draw. He then spent large chunks of his career as a half hearted wrestler. During his WCW stint is promos especially in front of audience were largely terrible with him losing his train of thought etc. His supposed crowning glory is Starrcade 1997 again like I said the promotion was hot at the time. The build to that show as effective as it was was him not wrestling or talking.

Sting has been on the ballot for donkeys I doubt he gets in.

I was mark for Sting's work in the 90s - the matches with Vader, Rude, Flair, Foley, Steiners etc. But he was never box office or an exceptional worrker.

GTR63

rovert wrote: »

I was mark for Sting's work in the 90s - the matches with Vader, Rude, Flair, Foley, Steiners etc. But he was never box office or an exceptional worrker.

I thought he'd get in based on these matches he had then its not as if seeing him wrestle a off his face hardy or phoning in which he has done for large chucks of his career would get him in it.

Angron

Frankly I'd be astounded if Batista got in. Edge I wouldn't be as surprised, though it might be somewhat early to me.

jaykhunter

Are there many wrestling observer readers here besides Rov?

GTR63

jaykhunter wrote: »

Are there many wrestling observer readers here besides Rov?

I'd never pay for wrestling newsletters thats for damn sure but to each their own.

rovert

jaykhunter wrote: »

Are there many wrestling observer readers here besides Rov?

Half this thread at least.

Others wait six weeks in the new Powerslam.

gnfnrhead

I just go to other sites that reprint it all for free usually within the hour

rovert

gnfnrhead wrote: »

I just go to other sites that reprint it all for free usually within the hour

Purple monkey dishwasher in my experience also you dont get the historical pieces, podcasts or the board.

jaykhunter

I want them to answer, not you! I bet there's not many, I ask since nobody here really talks about the observer (in a first hand sense) except you really. I mention WOL sometimes, maybe there's a few more. I reckon most here are just enjoying the discussion in the general sense.

GTR63

gnfnrhead wrote: »

I just go to other sites that reprint it all for free usually within the hour

Yeah the amount of sites that do that must be annoying. I wouldn't even pay a subscription to have vince's ear psssst Vince since Bryan is having so many pre ppv dark matches just have him cash in the MitB at the pre WrestleMania dark match then heck make it a traditional Battle Royal.

gnfnrhead

rovert wrote: »

Purple monkey dishwasher in my experience also you dont get the historical pieces, podcasts or the board.

Some do but it's pretty easy to tell who's making it up and who is reposting. "According to..." usually means bull**** in there somewhere, whereas "Credit to..." usually means a copy and paste.

Historical Pieces: Dont mind too much.
Board: Dont care.
Podcasts: Definitly dont care. Why would I pay to hear someone talk about what they dont like about wrestling?

rovert

gnfnrhead wrote: »

Why would I pay to hear someone talk about what they dont like about wrestling?

lol'd (as in too true)

sunbabe08

edge for hall of fame. seriously he was one of the best damn entertainers of the last decade and produced some awesome matches. i'm drooling now thinking about them. :p



now i'm a fan of batista, but if he can get it, then surely edge can get in easily. batista was good, but no where near as good as edge.

flahavaj

jaykhunter wrote: »

I want them to answer, not you! I bet there's not many, I ask since nobody here really talks about the observer (in a first hand sense) except you really. I mention WOL sometimes, maybe there's a few more. I reckon most here are just enjoying the discussion in the general sense.

I've subscribed for a good few years now. I wouldn't be without it tbh. Its about far more than just beinga "news site." Some of the historical stuff is amazing - the obituaries Meltzer has written are works of art id some cases. You also get hours of audio that ranges from hilarious to must-listen. And you get to abuse Bryan on the forum. :pac:

A bargain tbh. I don't have any desire or need to read any other wrestling news or opinion site because of it. Loads of the lads that post here are subscribers.

GTR63

flahavaj wrote: »

Loads of the lads that post here are subscribers.

I think a poll is in order I doubt too many here subscribe to it. I get most of my news on boards & skim over a few sites so I can't see the point of paying for it i'm not that much of a fan that i'd pay to read news.

flahavaj

GTR63 wrote: »

I think a poll is in order I doubt too many here subscribe to it. I get most of my news on boards & skim over a few sites so I can't see the point of paying for it i'm not that much of a fan that i'd pay to read news.

But I've just said there is far more than just news for one's money. And at least you can out your hat on the news you get in the Observer.

D2D

I subscribed to the Observer for 2 months and, tbf, it's definetly worth the money

rovert

Personally speaking I kind of resent jaykhunter raising this question and derailing an interesting thread. With all due respect I dont even know if JayK has read the topic to be honest outside of seeing "Wrestling Observer" as he didnt even give his thoughts on the topic took time to post. The topic itself was more about where modern performers stand historically rather than just the WON HOF itself.

It isnt a F4W website only thing if that is what JayK issue with it. Subscribers dont vote on it rather it is a private panel of wrestlers, promoters, historians and journalists. Discussion about it is not limited to the site either heck the best discussion from my POV takes place on the Wrestling Classics and ProWrestlingOnly forums rather on the F4W forums.

GTR63 wrote: »

I think a poll is in order I doubt too many here subscribe to it. I get most of my news on boards & skim over a few sites so I can't see the point of paying for it i'm not that much of a fan that i'd pay to read news.

It is always this tiresome us vs them type aspect here and elsewhere when this issue comes up. You dont see it with Powerslam or the PS50 for example. Ill never understand this weird resentment, envy or whatever it is that people have.

Cards on table and file under the category of it is what it is. But there are lots of regular posters on here who post over there as I & others see them post there. There are posters who post over there who have either left this board or barely post or lurk. I am sure there are others in the opposite direction too.

Why in gods name are we discussing this? Why does it need a poll? This isnt about the Wrestling Observer. I was just wondering where modern wrestlers stand historically given the changes in the industry BASED off the discussion & then the results of a very well respected Hall of Fame that is all. It was an interesting topic that was generating actual discussion by others and wish we could return to that.

GTR63

No need for tears about it ffs, has anyone even posted a PS50 since i've been on here doubt it cause i'm pretty sure boards did our own best wrestler of the year anyway. The MOTY thread is there for a reason too. Just suprised that people pay subscriptions when there is so much information or articles out there for free i'd say the same if it was about football, gaa, videogames or whatever I just wouldn't anyway.

jaykhunter

tbh i was just curious to know how many people here are so hardcore in their wrestling fandom that they pay a monthly subscription (considering the amount of excellent free stuff out there.) It doesn't warrant a new thread and I assumed that the WON crew would be in this thread.

lol man, i didn't mean to upset you. I also think it's funny u say envy/resentment etc (:pac:) but also take a shot at PS readers waiting 6 weeks for their news.

in any case, sure resume your normal chit-chat

rovert

GTR63 wrote: »

No need for tears about it ffs, has anyone even posted a PS50 since i've been on here doubt it cause i'm pretty sure boards did our own best wrestler of the year anyway. The MOTY thread is there for a reason too. Just suprised that people pay subscriptions when there is so much information or articles out there for free i'd say the same if it was about football, gaa, videogames or whatever I just wouldn't anyway.

jaykhunter wrote: »

tbh i was just curious to know how many people here are so hardcore in their wrestling fandom that they pay a monthly subscription (considering the amount of excellent free stuff out there.) It doesn't warrant a new thread and I assumed that the WON crew would be in this thread.

lol man, i didn't mean to upset you. I also think it's funny u say envy/resentment etc (:pac:) but also take a shot at PS readers waiting 6 weeks for their news.

in any case, sure resume your normal chit-chat

Good lord I wasnt upset and the Powerslam line was a joke. Sorry but I have seen the envy/resentment thing people on here in the past. Again you dont see people take this tact about any other news source. JayK again you even skipped my original thread/question to talk about it you do deep down must have some issue here.

Neither of you have stated that you have subscribed before I dont think. I've seen people say the exact same simplistic thing of "why pay for news" then become members for life. There is a couple of difference aspects of the site individually worth the subscription price alone.

I'll tell you straight the majority of content (outside of torrents etc) isnt out there for free. What is outside there on newz sites is either taken out or contents to get clickz for their site.

If this discussion continues please make a spilt thread as this topic is really tiresome in comparison to the original topic IMO.

Diabhal Beag

I sub to the Observer site. Wouldn't give a ****e about the newsletter or this HOF that everybody is all sensitive about over there. I love the audio (Alan4L has a brilliant podcast that easily tops any podcast I've ever listened to humour-wise) and the Board keeps me entertained when I'm bored ****less.

If I could just pay for audio and the Board I would but even at the price its at now I think it's great value.

jaykhunter

I really don't care Rovert. Sorry for bringing it up.

Diabhal Beag

Might aswell set up an observer thread because this gets brought up a lot.

rovert

Diabhal Beag wrote: »

I sub to the Observer site. Wouldn't give a ****e about the newsletter or this HOF that everybody is all sensitive about over there. I love the audio (Alan4L has a brilliant podcast that easily tops any podcast I've ever listened to humour-wise) and the Board keeps me entertained when I'm bored ****less.

If I could just pay for audio and the Board I would but even at the price its at now I think it's great value.

And for every Diabhal there is a person who doesn't even subscribe to the website and just get the paper version of the Wrestling Observer and so on. Essentially it is as close as a one stop shop for all aspects Pro Wrestling & MMA with some really talented, knowledgeable and creative both in terms staff and subscribers. It is 2011 spending €7 a month online on ridiculous amount of content isn't that hardcore and many news/media outlets are going the paid media route - HELLO Netflix is coming Ireland in 2012. Don't see the issue or hurdle a few people here have with it.

Being a moderator on a Wrestling forum it is more strange for you not to be a Wrestling Observer subscriber in my experience and from my point of view.

Also yeah Alan's shows with Eamo, Justin, Naylor etc make me H-A-P-P-Y :pac:

jaykhunter wrote: »

I really don't care Rovert. Sorry for bringing it up.

I just would have preferred you to have at least commented on the actual topic before going down this road and changing the freaking topic title. I started the topic to talk about something specific but now that has gone off the rails and it is now a half topic. I am a poster and you are mod & I'm the one giving out about this.

I would prefer if you changed back the topic title back or just make a spilt topic at this stage. I really don't want to be seen as backseat modding I just what to go back to talking about the thread I created without the distraction of the other shoe horned topic.

Diabhal Beag wrote: »

Might aswell set up an observer thread because this gets brought up a lot.

With a poll. :P

We should have our own sub forum like the Wrestlemania people.