stopped by the cops..

JackCharlton

Hi
i was stopped by the cops and he asked me to show him my license

my dog tore it apart one day years ago and its all held together by tape
i know it looks like crap but its all legible

my photo is there
the license number and issue date and catagories that im entitled to drive are all there and its in date
thre is a chunk missing from it but its the last page and just a blank bit

the guard told me it wasnt a valid license and i therefore hadnt a license
i told him it was a valid license as it had my pic and license number on it
a bit of an row ensued .. he is insisitng i have no license as its in bits and held together with tape..

i told him to bring me to court and i would have no problem explaining to a judge

i think im correct here am i ??.....

Marcusm

In circumstances such as these, excessive deference towards the guardian of the peace is required so that you can avoid him making an appointment for you before the beak.

BronsonTB

Get a replacement in your local motortax office (Licence section)

JackCharlton

Marcusm wrote: »

In circumstances such as these, excessive deference towards the guardian of the peace is required so that you can avoid him making an appointment for you before the beak.

But i have a license , in date valid license number my address etc all showing
my car is taxed insured and ncted????

how can he bring me to court for not having a license when i have one?

JackCharlton

there is 3 years left on the license im not queuing up in rathfarnham for 2 hours to get another one .when i already have one

BronsonTB

Fair enough...take your chances...Could get a Judge on a good day or the copper might have been bluffing....

(You can get a replacement licence by post)

Fey!

It could be the held together by tape bit which is causing him to be stroppy; he could be thinking that it's one half of one license and one half of another license taped together.

While your case is nice and inncoent, he may have had someone try to pull a stroke like that before.

You could always post in for a replacement license.

JackCharlton

BronsonTB wrote: »

Fair enough...take your chances...Could get a Judge on a good day or the copper might have been bluffing....

(You can get a replacement licence by post)

just from a legal point of view
what charge could i be facing
i HAVE a valid license

Mint Sauce

Just took a look at my own licence. The last page shows the date of which your licence is valid to, ie what your licenced to drive and until when, it also shows what endorcments you have.

Now I dont know what the legalites of not having this information available at a glance is, but surly to save any hassle at future check points, wouldn't be worth the couple of hours it might take to get a new one ordered.

Marcusm

JackCharlton wrote: »

there is 3 years left on the license im not queuing up in rathfarnham for 2 hours to get another one .when i already have one

Do you need to queue up to get it replaced? You'll certainly spend more than 2 hours hanging around the District Court if that route applies!

I suspect the Garda has determined that your licence has been damaged or defaced and needs to be replaced. The process for that starts with you attending a Garda station to have an application form stamped. Perhaps the best approach would be to make an appointment to see the Garda who stopped him, apologise (whether you mean it or not) for the fuss/argument, ask him to stamp the form and gently inquire whether he will let the matter drop at that.

Otherwise, do let us know when you get your court appointment so we can enjoy the next chapter.

Ash.J.Williams

JackCharlton wrote: »

just from a legal point of view
what charge could i be facing
i HAVE a valid license

official documents need to be in decent condition...try that with your passport and you will not travel!!

Henry Ford III

JackCharlton wrote: »

just from a legal point of view
what charge could i be facing
i HAVE a valid license

You've a license that may be difficult to verify and authenticate.

Rather than take on the law (you'll probably lose btw) I'd get a new one.

afatbollix

7 people say get a new license

Stop trying to beat the system and get a new one.

shawnee

The judge would in all probablility take the gardas evidence that not all the licence was legible and you would probably be fined accordingly. In such cases the judges don't generally look at the evidence to make a decision. Take it on the chin get a new licence and give the dog a boot up the arse instead of the guard :D

biko

Don't get a new licence
Go to court
Report back here

wickan

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

official documents need to be in decent condition...try that with your passport and you will not travel!!

Exactly fully agree with this.

Ash.J.Williams

I predict a brief moment of laughter in the court room when you explain to the court that your dog ate half your license!

JackCharlton

from the road traffic act 1961
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0040.html
the only thing i can see that may be relevent is part 5
but my license shows all these things

while im an ordinary law abiding citizen you cant allow the guards to bully you over something so silly as a license held together with tape.
i would actually like to go to the district court and embarass the guard in front of the judge

bucketybuck

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

official documents need to be in decent condition...try that with your passport and you will not travel!!

Where is the legislation for this though? I just spent ten minutes looking through the RSA and citizensinformation websites, and I can see no mention of what constitutes a valid or invalid driving license.

Is this typical Irish rubbish, where it is whatever the guard says it is?

JackCharlton

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

I predict a brief moment of laughter in the court room when you explain to the court that your dog ate half your license!

hahah !!

JackCharlton

bucketybuck wrote: »

Where is the legislation for this though? I just spent ten minutes looking through the RSA and citizensinformation websites, and I can see no mention of what constitutes a valid or invalid driving license.

Is this typical Irish rubbish, where it is whatever the guard says it is?

finally a voice of reason!!!

bucketybuck

shawnee wrote: »

The judge would in all probablility take the gardas evidence that not all the licence was legible

But what evidence has the Garda produced, and what standard are they measuring against? Courts will not just say, "Oh the Garda says its not a good license, he must be right then so".

According to Jacks link below, all the required information is legible, so the guard should pull his head out of his arse.

JackCharlton wrote: »

from the road traffic act 1961
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0040.html
the only thing i can see that may be relevent is part 5
but my license shows all these things

while im an ordinary law abiding citizen you cant allow the guards to bully you over something so silly as a license held together with tape.
i would actually like to go to the district court and embarass the guard in front of the judge

ResearchWill

Without seeing the document it's self it's impossible to answer, but the original 1961 Road Traffic Act says: Section 40 ss 5,

(5) A person who, when producing a driving licence to a member of the Garda Síochána pursuant to this section, permits the member to see and read so much of the licence as contains the name, address, signature (if any) and photograph (if any) of the person to whom the licence was granted, the date of the termination of the period for which it was granted and the licensing authority by whom it was granted shall, for the purposes of this section, be deemed to have permitted such member to read the licence.

Not sure if this ss has been amended.

Mint Sauce

JackCharlton wrote: »

from the road traffic act 1961
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0040.html
the only thing i can see that may be relevent is part 5
but my license shows all these things

If it is the part of the last page that is missing, then your Licence may not show all of that.

(5) A person who, when producing a driving licence to a member of the Garda Síochána pursuant to this section, permits the member to see and read so much of the licence as contains the name, address, signature (if any) and photograph (if any) of the person to whom the licence was granted, the date of the termination of the period for which it was granted and the licensing authority by whom it was granted shall, for the purposes of this section, be deemed to have permitted such member to read the licence.

Part in bold is one the last page. Get a new Licence if this is the case other wise you may end up being the one being embarassed.

bijapos

Go on a road trip through Holland, Germany, Austria, Switzerland and France. Explain to police forces your dog ate the license and it's valid.

They'll tell you pretty sharpish if its valid or not (its not) and if they are happy with you driving around with a rag-tag license. They'll probably just impound the car and give you a largish on the spot fine.

Its supposed to be kept in good condition, and you don't have to queue up for one, you can also do it by post.

JackCharlton

Nope it has all those inc the date of termination:)

bucketybuck

bijapos wrote: »

Go on a road trip through Holland, Germany, Austria, Switzerland and France. Explain to police forces your dog ate the license and it's valid.

What exactly does this have to do with the case as presented? You might as well tell him to try and use it to get on a space shuttle, it would be just as relevant.

Officially on record he is licensed so I don't see how he could be done for driving unlicensed.

ResearchWill

JackCharlton wrote: »

Nope it has all those inc the date of termination:)

If you think you are covered then make that argument to the Court, check to see if section 40 ss 5 has been amended. If the DC disagree with you they will fine you, then appeal to CC who may agree or disagree. If you really think you are still right you may be able to judicially review the CC decision. But to be honest a lot easier to get new license to avoid this in the future.

spiggotpaddy

this case highlights the need for a plastic card license. its like having to carry a five euro note in your pocket for ten years, but the shop keeper wants a crispy.

podge79

I would hazard that the point would be made that your license is defaced and although in good faith you put it back together the authenticity of it could not be verified... argue your point in court if you so want but as was pointed out by others which is more hassle.. that of going to court and waiting round and possibly getting a fine or waiting around getting a duplicate of your current (sticky-taped) license for a €10?

savagecabbages

Perhaps the Guard suspected it was tampered with?
This may have nothing to do with whats parts are displayed or not....

I mean if you tore a tax disc up and taped it back together you'd be asking for trouble! In the same way taping a licence back together is (in my humble opinion) asking for trouble too...

Drummerboy08

biko wrote: »

1. Don't get a new licence
2. Go to court
3. Report back here
4. ???
5. PROFIT

FYP

mickdw

I dont think they can do you for not having a licence. Im sure they can though for not producing a valid licence as the guard will say the document was unclear and was likely to be tampered with.
I dont know why you would be so pig headed about this. Your licence is in bits, get a new one.

TouchingVirus

ResearchWill wrote: »

If you think you are covered then make that argument to the Court, check to see if section 40 ss 5 has been amended. If the DC disagree with you they will fine you, then appeal to CC who may agree or disagree. If you really think you are still right you may be able to judicially review the CC decision. But to be honest a lot easier to get new license to avoid this in the future.

Surely the Garda could have noted the license number and details on the provided license and checked when he got back to the station - problem solved with regards to charges.

But seriously OP, have a bit of decency and stop making the Guards lives harder by providing them with a piece of scrap that introduces doubts. Using your argument I could drop my license in excrement smearing it everywhere except for the bits of information in Section 5 and hand it over expecting the Guard to have no issue. Technically you might be right, but there is no need for it whatsoever.

ur mentor

a three year driving licence costs 15 euro. So this is the amount of money it costs you to get one three years early.
if you go to court and win... well then does anyone pay you? do you get travel expenses? I dont think so .. so you are at a loss of lots of loot then...you can appear in Court many many times before the case is even heard. all wasted time.
If you go to Court and lose...then you are out your time again,,i assume that time is money to you too...plus who knows maybe a fine.. or points on licence..this may raise your insurance costs..
so I personally dont see the financial reason for it as the time lost will be very expensive..
as far as embarrassing a Guard is concerned.. if you win case...umm...he probably could care less. they lose cases lots of time.. they still get paid...

Berty

The question is I guess "What charge is he going to take you to court on?"

He cannot take you to court for not having a license because technically you do have one, rather, the piece of paper proving this point is degraded.

If you KNEW your license was shoddy you should have rectified it. No defence here I'm afraid. Replacements are reduced priced. Changing your address is even FREE and it's not often something from the Government is free at all.

My license when nearly brand new was handed over to a car rental desk in Miami and she nearly laughed me out of it and actually said "Are you for real, this cannot be a state issued license?"

bucketybuck

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Using your argument I could drop my license in excrement smearing it everywhere except for the bits of information in Section 5 and hand it over expecting the Guard to have no issue.

Expecting the Guard to have no issue? Show me the legislation saying he cannot do what he wants to his license and I might agree with you. Without that, this is all wishywashy crap that has no place in a discussion about the rule of law and driver enforcement regulations.

As I said before, "Theres no need", and "Ah now lad thats not on.." have no place when it comes to Police and courts. State the legislation please.

MetzgerMeister

Would it not have taken less time for you to apply for a new licence than what it has taken to start this thread and will take you to read replies and reply yourself?

Buffman

JackCharlton wrote: »

thre is a chunk missing from it but its the last page and just a blank bit

How much is missing?

JackCharlton wrote: »

he is insisitng i have no license as its in bits and held together with tape..

I wouldn't worry, probably at least 10% of licences are held together with tape in Ireland I'd guess. It's optimistic of the authorities to expect you to keep the same piece of paper with you and in good condition for 10 years. The sooner they roll out the credit card style licence the better.

JackCharlton wrote: »

i told him to bring me to court and i would have no problem explaining to a judge

Did he say he's taking you to court? I can't see any Garda going to court for this if, as you say, all relevant information is displayed.

savagecabbages

Buffman wrote: »

Did he say he's taking you to court? I can't see any Garda going to court for this if, as you say, all relevant information is displayed.

JackCharlton wrote: »

i told him to bring me to court and i would have no problem explaining to a judge

i think im correct here am i ??.....

Sounds like OP wants the guard to bring him to court to prove a point. About what I dont know...

As I said I see no difference in this to taping a tax disc back together and expecting a guard to think its not tampered with...

-Corkie-

einheisserschre wrote: »

Would it not have taken less time for you to apply for a new licence than what it has taken to start this thread and will take you to read replies and reply yourself?

It costs a fiver for a replacement licence. All he has to do is sent it off to the relevant authority. OP is on such a high horse that his chewen partially illegible licence is perfectly OK...:rolleyes:

heate

this is a typical bloody joke - I can't understand why we continue to print and laminate pieces of paper that are so important. I have been stopped and had to produce my license - If they want to check if I have a license why cant they you're that €120m system to confirm the details I've provided.

MagicSean

You say it is held together by tape. So it is quite possible that you stole someones licence, removed their picture and put your own one in. That is why it is not acceptable as a licence.

Ronin247

einheisserschre wrote: »

Would it not have taken less time for you to apply for a new licence than what it has taken to start this thread and will take you to read replies and reply yourself?

Would it have not have taken the garda less time to pick up his radio or phone and request confirmation that the licence was valid??

If the garda was sure of his position he would have summonsed you, he was just a bluffer.

GTE

Two issues here which seemed to get derailed almost from the very beginning.

Is the OP licensed regardless of the condition or whereabouts of the license?
I say yes as the license number indicates a data base which we are kept on.
I think this is a consensus here, so OP has his answer. Thread closed in for this.

The second thing is the condition of the license. I think there is a line to be crossed to deem it unsuitable and we would probably have to see it to really decide but the Garda did decide, but saying he had no license was a mistake. Mine has been through the wash this week, all the data is there but it does look like the photo could be taken out and replaced with another so I would lean on the side of it being not suitable for use but having said that I do always carry my university ID so I think I am ok.

Tis the way I see it.
I do love grey areas!

MagicSean

Beer Baron wrote: »

The question is I guess "What charge is he going to take you to court on?"

He cannot take you to court for not having a license because technically you do have one, rather, the piece of paper proving this point is degraded.

If you KNEW your license was shoddy you should have rectified it. No defence here I'm afraid. Replacements are reduced priced. Changing your address is even FREE and it's not often something from the Government is free at all.

My license when nearly brand new was handed over to a car rental desk in Miami and she nearly laughed me out of it and actually said "Are you for real, this cannot be a state issued license?"

He will most likely be charged with Using a False Instrument as the licence he held was assemble by himself and not the original as issued by the local authority. As the licence is considered a false instrument then it can be accepted as being invalid so he will probably get the standard three licence chages too.

The definition of a false instrument is covered in the Theft Act http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0050/sec0030.html#sec30

MagicSean

bbk wrote: »

Two issues here which seemed to get derailed almost from the very beginning.

Is the OP licensed regardless of the condition or whereabouts of the license?
I say yes as the license number indicates a data base which we are kept on.
OP has his answer. Thread closed in for this.

The second thing is the condition of the license. I think there is a line to be crossed to deem it unsuitable and we would probably have to see it to really decide but the Garda did decide, but saying he had no license was a mistake. Mine has been through the wash this week, all the data is there but it does look like the photo could be taken out and replaced with another so I would lean on the side of it being not suitable for use but having said that I do always carry my university ID so I think I am ok.

Tis the way I see it.
I do love grey areas!

You are not licenced without the physical copy of the licence. In fact, if you even forget to sign your licence you are not licenced.

This is all covered in Sections 22 - 40 of the Road Traffic Act 1961

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0022.html

MagicSean

Ronin247 wrote: »

Would it have not have taken the garda less time to pick up his radio or phone and request confirmation that the licence was valid??

If the garda was sure of his position he would have summonsed you, he was just a bluffer.

You can't summons on the spot. You have to wait 10 days to allow them to produce. And checking the sytem will only match the details. The photo can still have been changed.

ResearchWill

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

He will most likely be charged with Using a False Instrument as the licence he held was assemble by himself and not the original as issued by the local authority. As the licence is considered a false instrument then it can be accepted as being invalid so he will probably get the standard three licence chages too.

The definition of a false instrument is covered in the Theft Act http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0050/sec0030.html#sec30

Sections 25 to 31 of the Criminal Justice Theft and fraud offences act 2001 need to all be read together. I would see most DCJ laughing any charge right out of court, unless the licence was in fact a forgery.

barura

ANY forms of ID have to be in good aesthetic condition or they do not have to be accepted. End of! If you think it's unfair then how would you defend it? The law states that it has to be in reasonable condition on your passport, what makes you think your drivers licence should be different? That's the only proof of your ability to drive on your part. If it worries you, make a colour photocopy of your next one and keep your real one safe at home.

Away from your dog.