Indo article on PS Pay Cuts, comparing Ireland to Greece

Rabidlamb

They've used Greece for their predictions once all other cost reduction options have been depleted.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/looking-at-greece-will-give-a-sign-of-things-to-come-here-2856071.html

With the Government intending to cut spending and raise taxes by "at least" €3.6bn in December's budget, the economy will soon come to a point where the only remaining area where dramatic savings can be made is in the public sector.

According to the fourth review of Greece's bailout programme, the country will have to cut one-in-five jobs in the public sector between now and 2015. While some of this will come from natural wastage, there will be what the IMF calls "involuntary" departures.

The cuts in public-sector pay look like being equally radical. The review claims there is a gap between similar public-sector and private-sector jobs in Greece of between 11pc and 32pc.

While the review does not stipulate across-the-board pay cuts that are needed, it does insist that public-sector-pay rates must come into line with the private sector.

Of course Ireland is not Greece so it's purely speculation at this point but it does present a recent precedent.

fliball123

Rabidlamb wrote: »

They've used Greece for their predictions once all other cost reduction options have been depleted.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/looking-at-greece-will-give-a-sign-of-things-to-come-here-2856071.html





Of course Ireland is not Greece so it's purely speculation at this point but it does present a recent precedent.

I have pointed out time and again on boards that the CPA will have to be done away with ...We can not continue to tax the hell out of people and cut socail welfare and cut services like A&E and increasing class room sizes so the Public sector can remain the only sacred cow...There needs to be fairness in cuts and I only hope that the gov wake up to this reality sooner rather than later

bamboozle

much as we need cuts etc in our public service, lets not compare ourselves to greece, i read somewhere of a hospital in the centre of Athens which has 60 gardeners....and no gardens.

realistically the best we can hope for is lots of voluntary redundancies which are not refilled, movement from over stocked areas such as the HSE into areas which need extra staff (dept of social welfare)
where new entrants are necessary such as in teaching these are hired on new contracts starting on significantly reduced salaries.
finally a root and branch overhaul of all public sector bodies to cut out waste of any sort.

fliball123

bamboozle wrote: »

much as we need cuts etc in our public service, lets not compare ourselves to greece, i read somewhere of a hospital in the centre of Athens which has 60 gardeners....and no gardens.

realistically the best we can hope for is lots of voluntary redundancies which are not refilled, movement from over stocked areas such as the HSE into areas which need extra staff (dept of social welfare)
where new entrants are necessary such as in teaching these are hired on new contracts starting on significantly reduced salaries.
finally a root and branch overhaul of all public sector bodies to cut out waste of any sort.

I dont know I think its getting to the squeeky bum time the gov are in a very precarious postion...in this budget if they go through with there tax increases and cuts on the dole I think there will be a public outcry if everything is being hit and the public sector pay and pension are not cut

Mr. Presentable

What social welfare cuts?

fliball123

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

What social welfare cuts?

Wel Moan Burton has been on Newstalk stating that social welfare will have to hit in some measure..

ParkRunner

Indo rag in public service bashing shocker. Can they not come up with anything original.

RichardAnd

fliball123 wrote: »

I dont know I think its getting to the squeeky bum time the gov are in a very precarious postion...in this budget if they go through with there tax increases and cuts on the dole I think there will be a public outcry if everything is being hit and the public sector pay and pension are not cut

Public service pay has been brought down over the last few years, in spite of the spindo's claim to the contrary. It will also be cut again and I would say only the most obtuse people would think otherwise.

Now, as regards public outcry. Well, the public didn't cry out when then banks were bailed out. Nor did they cry out when two referendums were held again because we "voted wrong" the first time in each case. They also did little more than hickup when the IMF and ECB arrived so...will they cry out if public service pay and numbers are not cut in the next election?

Well you know, they actually might because it would be their fellow citizens' lives being made a little harder and we love that here in Ireland. In the Irish mentality, unemployed person A will be glad to see person B loose their job because after that happens, person A will feel better about themselves and not have to look at the larger picture in the world. To put it anotherway, it's nice to have company on the gallows.

fliball123

RichardAnd wrote: »

Public service pay has been brought down over the last few years, in spite of the spindo's claim to the contrary. It will also be but again and I would say only the most obtuse people would think otherwise.

Now, as regards public outcry. Well, the public didn't cry out when then banks were bailed out. Nor did they cry out when two referendums were held again because we "voted wrong" the first time in each case. They also did little more than hickup when the IMF and ECB arrived so...will they cry out if public service pay and numbers are not cut in the next election?

Well you know, they actually might because it would be their fellow citizens' lives being made a little harder and we love that here in Ireland. In the Irish mentality, unemployed person A will be glad to see person B loose their job because after that happens, person B will feel better about themselves and not have to look at the larger picture in the world. To put it anotherway, it's nice to have company on the gallows.

ehh it wasnt touched in the last budget or will it be touched in the next 3...We have all been taking hits as I say I dont see why it should be a sacred cow.

Do you not feel the tension in this country..When you hear of sh1te going on in places like fas ...when you hear of class sizes increasing so teachers can keep their perks and pensions and salary in tact..When you hear of A&Es closing...and then talk about kicking a dog when its down an already over stretched over burdened mortgage holders being asked to pay a property tax on top of stamp duty on a property thats more than likely in negitive equity..I tell you the words straw and camels back comes to mind and I personally will take to the streets if these cuts and tax increases are not done in a fair manner as in every area gets cut (including the sacred cow that is ps pay and pensions)

The_Honeybadger

I believe the consensus is that they will lower tax credits and introduce water and housing charges, this will affect the public sector as much as the private sector afaik. Areas of the PS are wildly overpaid, particularly in the semi state sector, I think another across the board cut to ps pay would be unfair, a scalpel rather than a sledgehammer is now required to identify the waste and remove it or at least reduce it significantly. I won't hold my breath however. I work in the private sector btw.

sollar

fliball123 wrote: »

Wel Moan Burton has been on Newstalk stating that social welfare will have to hit in some measure..

And rightly so.

RobbieTheRobber

God good, did this piece make it into the printed edition does anyone know?

Having just read this article I think it would be massively improved by being written in txt speak and put back online.

There isn't anything of substance in that piece not one bit.

In the second pargraph he quotes "at least", but what or who is it a quote from Oliver?

The second paragraph talks about pressure from lenders but isnt that "the so-called troika" who reviewed us and said we are ok. So what Oliver is your inside information that this pressure is inevitable?


The article wafffles along for a while before anything interesting is said again. Then he gets onto this ceiling being placed in all government departments on spending and just happens to suggest that they wont be able to continue rising anymore, but hasnt that been the case since at least 2008?
Havent departments with the possible exception of Social Welfare been bringing spending down?
Isnt overall spending in the PS continuing to fall rather than rise oliver?


Its just a terrible terrible article I could see this one being rejected by the sun for not being credible :rolleyes:

sollar

RichardAnd wrote: »

Public service pay has been brought down over the last few years, in spite of the spindo's claim to the contrary. It will also be but again and I would say only the most obtuse people would think otherwise.

Now, as regards public outcry. Well, the public didn't cry out when then banks were bailed out. Nor did they cry out when two referendums were held again because we "voted wrong" the first time in each case. They also did little more than hickup when the IMF and ECB arrived so...will they cry out if public service pay and numbers are not cut in the next election?

Well you know, they actually might because it would be their fellow citizens' lives being made a little harder and we love that here in Ireland. In the Irish mentality, unemployed person A will be glad to see person B loose their job because after that happens, person B will feel better about themselves and not have to look at the larger picture in the world. To put it anotherway, it's nice to have company on the gallows.

As i've said many times begrudgery is rampant in this country. A national pass time.

sollar

fliball123 wrote: »

Do you not feel the tension in this country..When you hear of sh1te going on in places like fas ...when you hear of class sizes increasing so teachers can keep their perks and pensions and salary in tact..When you hear of A&Es closing...and then talk about kicking a dog when its down an already over stretched over burdened mortgage holders being asked to pay a property tax on top of stamp duty on a property thats more than likely in negitive equity..I tell you the words straw and camels back comes to mind and I personally will take to the streets if these cuts and tax increases are not done in a fair manner as in every area gets cut (including the sacred cow that is ps pay and pensions)

The government have known for years that we are the meekest in Europe. They can do what they want and nobody will protest.

RichardAnd

sollar wrote: »

The government have known for years that we are the meekest in Europe. They can do what they want and nobody will protest.

Meek isn't the word I'd use. We're a push over because we prefer knocking chunks out of each other than standing against what will only hurt everyone.

To wrap it up in a story, a concentration cam for the Irish wouldn't need guards; if someone managed to climb a fence, his "fellows" would pull him back in.

fliball123

sollar wrote: »

The government have known for years that we are the meekest in Europe. They can do what they want and nobody will protest.

really well watch out next budget.....Look at England , Lybia people will realise that the only way to make people in power is to cause unrest...and unfortunately if the next budget is not balanced correctly there will be blood on the street

sollar

fliball123 wrote: »

really well watch out next budget.....Look at England , Lybia people will realise that the only way to make people in power is to cause unrest...and unfortunately if the next budget is not balanced correctly there will be blood on the street

Extremely unlikely. Plenty of complaining on the internet... a bit of whinging at the dinner table and a few angry words down the pub will be the height of it imo.

Rabidlamb

You all fail to see the power of a strongly worded Facebook campaign.
Irish people likes this.

fliball123

sollar wrote: »

Extremely unlikely. Plenty of complaining on the internet... a bit of whinging at the dinner table and a few angry words down the pub will be the height of it imo.

The problem here is the whinging on the dinnner table will be slowing down and stopping as people will not be having much cash left for food, same goes for the pub...and the internet will probably be cut off..There is a ferocious appetite for some rioting at the moment this is just from what I see and hear and feel...But sure lets see how december goes but Mr Kenny better show some sack and do whats right

sollar

fliball123 wrote: »

There is a ferocious appetite for some rioting at the moment this is just from what I see and hear and feel...

Careful now... you don't want to end up with a 4 month stretch in the joy

fliball123

sollar wrote: »

Careful now... you don't want to end up with a 4 month stretch in the joy

I would be protesting no violence surely I have a right to voice my anger ... and I gareentee I wont be the only one...Has no one else felt a shift in attitude when talking to various different people ??

RichardAnd

fliball123 wrote: »

The problem here is the whinging on the dinnner table will be slowing down and stopping as people will not be having much cash left for food, same goes for the pub...and the internet will probably be cut off..There is a ferocious appetite for some rioting at the moment this is just from what I see and hear and feel...But sure lets see how december goes but Mr Kenny better show some sack and do whats right

You were banned last week for talking crap weren't you?

fliball123

RichardAnd wrote: »

You were banned last week for talking crap weren't you?

What crap am I talking..I am saying if the budget is unfair I will go out protesting is that alright with you is it...

ardmacha

This article is a sad reflection on the state of this country. When we are in a mess and real debate is needed on what to do to get out of it we get this sorry excuse for journalism and analysis in the largest selling newspaper.

You could argue that a place where any attention is paid to this kind of tripe deserves the mess that it is in.

I am saying if the budget is unfair I will go out protesting is that alright with you is it...

It would, if anyone imagined for one moment that you had a fair definition of "unfair", rather than a mé féiner attitude of if I have to contribute then that's unfair".

COYW

fliball123 wrote: »

We can not continue to tax the hell out of people and cut socail welfare

The only loss that social welfare recipients have suffered thus far is the loss of their Christmas bones. Social welfare and more so the fraudulent claiming of same, needs to be tackled just as much as the public sector finances.

fliball123

ardmacha wrote: »

This article is a sad reflection on the state of this country. When we are in a mess and real debate is needed on what to do to get out of it we get this sorry excuse for journalism and analysis in the largest selling newspaper.

You could argue that a place where any attention is paid to this kind of tripe deserves the mess that it is in.



It would, if anyone imagined for one moment that you had a fair definition of "unfair", rather than a mé féiner attitude of if I have to contribute then that's unfair".

If you have had a look at any post I have ever posted and where I am coming from..I am employed and know and accept there will be more taxes coming my way...The dolees will be getting a cut .. My definintion of fairness is that the cash spent on ps pay / pensions should not be exempt from these cuts..Surely thats fair we are all paying?

fliball123

COYW wrote: »

The only loss that social welfare recipients have suffered thus far is the loss of their Christmas bones. Social welfare and more so the fraudulent claiming of same, needs to be tackled just as much as the public sector finances.

Sorry they also got cut down from 204 to 196 I know its 8 euros but its still a cut... True the fraud needs to be clamped down on aswell and these on social will get another cut this budget

RichardAnd

fliball123 wrote: »

What crap am I talking..I am saying if the budget is unfair I will go out protesting is that alright with you is it...

It would be fine with me, you have every right to protest as you should. I believe in freedom of speech so you could say anything you liked and I wouldn't have a problem with it but as to whether I'd listen, that's different.

In this case however, you're doing what I've seen you do in a dozen other threads; having a go at public servants because you don't like them.

fliball123

RichardAnd wrote: »

It would be fine with me, you have every right to protest as you should. I believe in freedom of speech so you could say anything you liked and I wouldn't have a problem with it but as to whether I'd listen, that's different.

In this case however, you're doing what I've seen you do in a dozen other threads; having a go at public servants because you don't like them.

No hang on a sec I know people who work in the ps ..I dont hate them I just find it hard to swallow that there pay, pension and perks are off the table for the next 3 years when everyone is being strangled with increased taxes and cuts in the social welfare..Not only this but the countless scandals about different perks that they have and the fight they put up when people try to take them away..Hate is a strong word its all about being fair ...

WalterMitty

The thing is , public service pay in greece is actually one of lowest in europe. Teachers there get around 15k a year and average public sector pay is only around 15k there. Average public sector pay in IReland is close to 50k! so plenty of fat left to cut here. Eventually the troika will publish the wage differentials for public private here and gov will be eventually forced to act. Fairness has nothing to do with it, there simply isnt enough money capable of being raised to keep our public servants amongst the best paid in world. As Ruari Quinn said, the country is in receivership.

serfboard

WalterMitty wrote: »

Eventually the troika will publish the wage differentials for public private here and gov will be eventually forced to act.

I agree - that's the way I think it will happen too.

WalterMitty wrote: »

As Ruari Quinn said, the country is in receivership.

The only politician I've heard who's really telling it like it is. I suppose this is because he was Minister for Finance during the last Depression here.

COYW wrote: »

The only loss that social welfare recipients have suffered thus far is the loss of their Christmas bones.

Incorrect - not only was the Christmas bonus removed, but the rates of social welfare were reduced also. Basic dole used to be 204 per week. Now it's 188, less than 150 for Under-25s and 100 for Under 22s.

Of course, we still have the ridiculous situation of wealthy people getting children's allowance, and massive public sector pensions for some people. (Messers Ahern and Cowen for example).

waster81

WalterMitty wrote: »

The thing is , public service pay in greece is actually one of lowest in europe. Teachers there get around 15k a year and average public sector pay is only around 15k there. Average public sector pay in IReland is close to 50k! so plenty of fat left to cut here. Eventually the troika will publish the wage differentials for public private here and gov will be eventually forced to act. Fairness has nothing to do with it, there simply isnt enough money capable of being raised to keep our public servants amongst the best paid in world. As Ruari Quinn said, the country is in receivership.

If we could benchmark the private sector with those in Greece then by all means it would be appropriate to benchmark public sector

The only thing is you can trust the private secto to publish accurate figures, it would be covered up by bonuses, the perks that go with the job etc.

Sure look at what AIB employees want their bonuses re organised or renamed as something else so that they can receive a lump sum bonus.

Can you imagine the uproar if the public sector was proposing it ( and dont start with the oh AIB are now public servants crap)

WalterMitty

waster81 wrote: »

If we could benchmark the private sector with those in Greece then by all means it would be appropriate to benchmark public sector

The only thing is you can trust the private secto to publish accurate figures, it would be covered up by bonuses, the perks that go with the job etc.

Sure look at what AIB employees want their bonuses re organised or renamed as something else so that they can receive a lump sum bonus.

Can you imagine the uproar if the public sector was proposing it ( and dont start with the oh AIB are now public servants crap)

What the private sector earns is determined by market performance, efficiency and productivity . Its largely irrelvant to amount we have to spend on public sector . It creates all the wealth from its activities and gives some to public sector to provide essential services. Anyone in public sector unhapppy with inevitable pay cuts are free to leave public sector here for private sector here or abroad or for foreign public sectors, its that simple.

Count Dooku

waster81 wrote: »

If we could benchmark the private sector with those in Greece then by all means it would be appropriate to benchmark public sector

The only thing is you can trust the private secto to publish accurate figures, it would be covered up by bonuses, the perks that go with the job etc.

Sure look at what AIB employees want their bonuses re organised or renamed as something else so that they can receive a lump sum bonus.

Can you imagine the uproar if the public sector was proposing it ( and dont start with the oh AIB are now public servants crap)

Why private sector must be benchmarked against public sector and vice versa?
Public sector must depend only from total earnings of private sector collected through taxes and numbers with salaries must be adjusted to this figure

waster81

WalterMitty wrote: »

What the private sector earns is determined by market performance, efficiency and productivity . Its largely irrelvant to amount we have to spend on public sector . It creates all the wealth from its activities and gives some to public sector to provide essential services. Anyone in public sector unhapppy with inevitable pay cuts are free to leave public sector here for private sector here or abroad or for foreign public sectors, its that simple.

Yeah looked how well that went o have we forgotten how much we paid our financial industry.

No its not largely irrelevant at all - the amount we pay determines the price the product is charged at.
If we had lower wages across the board and these were actually transparent then we could have lower costs of products

Yeah and anyone that 8 years ago who wanted to enter the public sector could but eh no they didnt because 1 they didnt have a sense of social responsibility or 2 they were chasing the big euro signs

Sand

Whilst the galley slaves are busy strangling each other with their chains, it might be of some interest to note that the ship is on fire and rapidly sinking. Given the political and economic realities, I've been fairly resigned to Ireland defaulting for a while now, but even I choked on my cornflakes when Seamus Coffey pointed out over on the IrishEconomy.ie blog that Ireland spent 101 fricking billion in 2010. .

Thats just over 65% of GDP. For comparisons sake - to demonstrate the vitality and entrepreneurship of the Irish economy - Communist China's state spending amounts to about 22% of Chinese GDP.

Even if you consider the bank bailouts to be a "one off" ( Yeah, the banks are really sorry and will never ever ever need a bailout again) spending is still 70 billion or a frankly ridiculous 45% GDP (and 55% of GNP). We are simply not raising enough revenue to sustain that level of spending. Theres been a certain amount of fantasy around the "kick the can down the road" exercises since 2007/2008, but the cold, hard reality is that Germans really, really, really, really dont want to pay for the best paid public sector and unemployed in Europe.

So then we have to fall back on our own resources. In the end, given the total disinterest by the public sector in real reform and efficiencies, public sector pay and pensions are going to be cut and social welfare is also going to be cut massively. Rather than giving out about the "fairness" of it, the debate needs to move on to how services can be maintained (or indeed improved) in an enviroment where compensation is being reduced.

not yet

fliball123 wrote: »

really well watch out next budget.....Look at England , Lybia people will realise that the only way to make people in power is to cause unrest...and unfortunately if the next budget is not balanced correctly there will be blood on the street

Are you for fcuking real..................

You really think if Noonan doesn't slash PS wages the people will rise..

1/3 of the population depends on PS wages so you can count them out to begin with, the 400k on welfare don't give a flying fcuk once you leave them alone, 10s of thousands on 60-70k+ couldn't care less.............

so that leaves the whinging little ****es who begrudge a man/woman a weeks pay which in some cases (work mates) can be as low as 400euro per week.

So rise,rise up

sarumite

not yet wrote: »

so that leaves the whinging little ****es who begrudge a man/woman a weeks pay which in some cases (work mates) can be as low as 400euro per week.

The problem is that the state cannot afford it. We are broke. The private sector which is required to generate the income to pay for the public sector is slowly eroding. As such, spending must come down. Currently the two elephants in the room are SW and PS pay and pensions which are both too high considering the current economic situation. As such both will have to come down, whether you call some a begrudger( or a nazi ....begrudger is the new Godwins law afterall :pac:) or not.

ardmacha

What the private sector earns is determined by market performance, efficiency and productivity . Its largely irrelvant to amount we have to spend on public sector . It creates all the wealth from its activities and gives some to public sector to provide essential services. Anyone in public sector unhapppy with inevitable pay cuts are free to leave public sector here for private sector here or abroad or for foreign public sectors, its that simple.

This is complete nonsense. The public sector operates in the labour market of the country and so should have comparable salaries. The level of salaries and prices in a country provide the taxes to pay public servants at a similar level. Of course you can assess whether the PS is paying at an appropriate level or is suitably efficient, but PS salaries should be at the going rate, not determined by a political process.

Anyone in public sector unhapppy with inevitable pay cuts are free to leave public sector here for private sector here or abroad or for foreign public sectors, its that simple.

Oh right, that would work really well. Anyone of any use, the doctors, IT specialists, maths teachers, professors etc would leave the country, leaving the time servering bureaucrats in position. That'll improve things, for sure.

Seamus Coffey pointed out over on the IrishEconomy.ie blog that Ireland spent 101 fricking billion in 2010.

About 17% of this was spent on PS salaries, the main subject of discussion on this forum. .

not yet

sarumite wrote: »

The problem is that the state cannot afford it. We are broke. The private sector which is required to generate the income to pay for the public sector is slowly eroding. As such, spending must come down. Currently the two elephants in the room are SW and PS pay and pensions which are both too high considering the current economic situation. As such both will have to come down, whether you call some a begrudger( or a nazi ....begrudger is the new Godwins law afterall :pac:) or not.

The PS pay bill has dropped from approx 18.5b to 15b in the past 3 years....
Add to this the numbers employed have dropped from approx 315,000 to approx 295,000 in the same time.

Over the next 3 years the pay bill will drop to 13b and numbers employed to 260,000 all this whilst the population has increased from 3.9m to 4.6m....

Now without sounding racist, I'm assuming these 700,000 immigrants are in some ways more difficult to deal with from a nurse's point of view or a teachers. so the point I am making is some PS have quietly been increasing productivity over the past 10years....

The_Thing

WalterMitty wrote: »

Anyone in public sector unhapppy with inevitable pay cuts are free to leave public sector here for private sector here or abroad or for foreign public sectors, its that simple.

Likewise, anyone working in the private sector here who is unhappy about how their taxes are being spent is equally free to leave and find employment overseas.

ethical

cuts can be made that will not greatly affect the long term unemployed!(the one that would not and did not want to work anyways,remember when Ms.Harney went abroad to recruit workers in the Celtic Tiger era and we had 150,000 on the unemployment register in Ireland!) Look at the number of people that are housed in private landlords houses,why do we see one parent families with one child housed in 3 or 4 bed roomed houses? Would it not be more efficient to house these families in one or two bed-roomed houses or apartments.Look at the savings to the Dept of Social Welfare.Why pay out 650 subsidy per month when you can house tenants for 350?
The clear out of the public servants will continue until February of 2012,unfortunately it is the front-line staff that will be cut and not the fat cats who are hidden away from the real world.The public servants that are left behind will endure a longer working life and will contribute more to their pensions,(in fact in some instances when they retire they will have paid more in than they will ever draw-down),The Independent Newspaper has waged a campaign against PS for many years and has succeeded in getting us to the stage we are at today and have 'equalized' the pensions of the front line workers both in private and public sector ,yet frontline PS STAFF CONTINUE TO TAKE THE BRUNT OF PEOPLES ANGER.

sollar

ethical wrote: »

The Independent Newspaper has waged a campaign against PS for many years and has succeeded in getting us to the stage we are at today and have 'equalized' the pensions of the front line workers both in private and public sector ,yet frontline PS STAFF CONTINUE TO TAKE THE BRUNT OF PEOPLES ANGER.

They have failed miserably due to the poor quality of their campaign. They are as obvious as a pantomime villan.

Count Dooku

ardmacha wrote: »

This is complete nonsense. The public sector operates in the labour market of the country and so should have comparable salaries.

What about comparable job security?:rolleyes:

ardmacha wrote: »

Of course you can assess whether the PS is paying at an appropriate level or is suitably efficient, but PS salaries should be at the going rate, not determined by a political process.

Why number of PS workers not determined by a political process and PS unions have more political power then ordinary public?

ardmacha wrote: »

Oh right, that would work really well. Anyone of any use, the doctors, IT specialists, maths teachers, professors etc would leave the country, leaving the time servering bureaucrats in position. That'll improve things, for sure.

Why we cannot get rod of excessive bureaucracy and staff in PS bodies which can be considered as luxurious in present situation?

not yet wrote: »

The PS pay bill has dropped from approx 18.5b to 15b in the past 3 years....
Add to this the numbers employed have dropped from approx 315,000 to approx 295,000 in the same time.

Over the next 3 years the pay bill will drop to 13b and numbers employed to 260,000 all this whilst the population has increased from 3.9m to 4.6m....

In reality savings are much smaller, because instead of PS workers on 60K average salary with 33% taken back by taxes we will have PS pensioners on 30K average pension without income tax paid.
Effectively it will save for taxpayers only 1.5 bn, which will be quickly wiped out by 250m annual increments

not yet wrote: »

Now without sounding racist, I'm assuming these 700,000 immigrants are in some ways more difficult to deal with from a nurse's point of view or a teachers. so the point I am making is some PS have quietly been increasing productivity over the past 10years....

As soon as welfare benefits will drop and taxes will increase we will have 1 million emigrants instead and nobody will need increased productivity

fliball123

waster81 wrote: »

If we could benchmark the private sector with those in Greece then by all means it would be appropriate to benchmark public sector

The only thing is you can trust the private secto to publish accurate figures, it would be covered up by bonuses, the perks that go with the job etc.

Sure look at what AIB employees want their bonuses re organised or renamed as something else so that they can receive a lump sum bonus.

Can you imagine the uproar if the public sector was proposing it ( and dont start with the oh AIB are now public servants crap)

Yeah but look at the contradiction here those bonuses have been taken away they are fighting to get them back and will not get them back..The public sector have all ther perks still in tact and we cant take any of them away.

fliball123

not yet wrote: »

Are you for fcuking real..................

You really think if Noonan doesn't slash PS wages the people will rise..

1/3 of the population depends on PS wages so you can count them out to begin with, the 400k on welfare don't give a flying fcuk once you leave them alone, 10s of thousands on 60-70k+ couldn't care less.............

so that leaves the whinging little ****es who begrudge a man/woman a weeks pay which in some cases (work mates) can be as low as 400euro per week.

So rise,rise up

Are you for real??? and I dont think Noonan has a choice...Hows about the flip side to your statement that why do 2/3s of the population have to pay out more and more taxes so that 1/3 keep the pay/pensions and perks in tact???...They should not be counted out...Its an absolute disgrace that the cpa is still in tact... and instead of tackling the ps wage issue they are cutting services like A&Es...I dont begruge a person earning a living..I just dont think I should be stumping up more cash in the form of taxes to pay for it...I cannot afford a pension of my own..So why should I be subsidising 1/3 of our populations pension working in the public sector??

As I have pointed out Harney has more or less said there will be a cut in welfare she was on newstalk...Public services will be slashed again and taxes will be raised...So once again why should this 16 - 18 odd billion in public sector wage and pensions not be touched ???

RichardAnd

fliball123 wrote: »

No hang on a sec I know people who work in the ps ..I dont hate them I just find it hard to swallow that there pay, pension and perks are off the table for the next 3 years when everyone is being strangled with increased taxes and cuts in the social welfare..Not only this but the countless scandals about different perks that they have and the fight they put up when people try to take them away..Hate is a strong word its all about being fair ...

If you know people that work in the public service then your post history makes me think you don't like them. For example:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69884308&postcount=517

Now I'll be the first to stand up and say that there is a wicked level of waste within the public service and that's got to change. However, I also know people in the public service and I have no wish to see them or anyone else who tries to do a decent day's work loose their job or face pay cuts. I call that basic humanity but your post linked above reeks of hate. I want a balanced budget but I don't have to like the process.

You on the other hand seem to be of the mindset I mentioned in an earlier post. This comment...

So 2011 hopefully the Public sector will really be sharing the pain with the rest of us

...tells me that you wouldn't care what happens here so long as we're all mired in the same muck.

fliball123

RichardAnd wrote: »

If you know people that work in the public service then your post history makes me think you don't like them. For example:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69884308&postcount=517

Now I'll be the first to stand up and say that there is a wicked level of waste within the public service and that's got to change. However, I also know people in the public service and I have no wish to see them or anyone else who tries to do a decent day's work loose their job or face pay cuts. I call that basic humanity but your post linked above reeks of hate. I want a balanced budget but I don't have to like the process.

You on the other hand seem to be of the mindset I mentioned in an earlier post. This comment...



...tells me that you wouldn't care what happens here so long as we're all mired in the same muck.

Why not tackle what I posted here...At that time we had just got a kick in the ass budget ... As I say and I stand by it I dont hate the public sector or anyone in it..But do I think its unfair that they get to keep their pay/pensions and perk in tact under the cpa at a time when we are all being raped for more taxes and see those on the dole get more cuts and see vital public services being taken away such as A&Es yes do I go as far as saying I hate this ..yes I do..but I stand by the fact that I dont hate the PS ... I may hate some of the "i am worth it attitude among some in here on the ps side but there are plenty of the same in the private sector who are off the same sense of entitlement..So as I say tackle the ball not the man and deal with the post....

adcom

WalterMitty wrote: »

The thing is , public service pay in greece is actually one of lowest in europe. Teachers there get around 15k a year and average public sector pay is only around 15k there. Average public sector pay in IReland is close to 50k! QUOTE]

What is the cost of living in Greece? Think about cross border shopping. There are regular posts and articles about the value to be gotten across the border and how things are cheaper. Then unrelated (and unlinked most of the time) people start comparing PS wages in Ireland to those in the UK. While i agree that there is wastage in Irelands PS what i would really like to see is a proper breakdown of wages comariable to cost of living. Does this exist?

And yes, article is rehashing stuff that is gone before. And taxes in the budget will be water and household which will afect everyone. And Public service are paying a pension levy for what? 2 or 3 years now? And the days of the permanent contract appear to be gone. teachers get a cid contract now- contract of indefinite duration. The permanent jobs are becoming a thing of the past (which is right). As for closing of A&E's- what makes me angry about that is that medical staff may have been left go, or recruiting of healthcare professionals was probably extreemly low in the last few years whereas i doubt that any ofthe administration staff were affected. I believe that administration have an important role to pay but it appears to be very top heavy in Ireland. One dublin hospital has two HR departements which i think is indicitave of the problem.

sarumite

Having worked in the PS in the UK (NHS in the south of England) I would say the cost of living is lower, but the PS wages are far lower than would account for the cost of living. Had I been able to get a similar job in Ireland during the boom, I would have seen a dramatic increase in my real world wages. It should aslo be noted that the UK is currently undergoing modernisation and downsizing of its PS.

galway2007

fliball123 wrote: »

I dont know I think its getting to the squeeky bum time the gov are in a very precarious postion...in this budget if they go through with there tax increases and cuts on the dole I think there will be a public outcry if everything is being hit and the public sector pay and pension are not cut

are u an idiot or what?
Do you not know that tax increase hit the public sector as well?
A teacher starting today starts on 35% less than 3 year ago
All PS staff has take a 15 % pay cut and a pay freeze for 4 year
What have u done?
Fools like you need to stop letting the Irish independent control your thinking