What is a "WORLD CLASS" player

mrboswell

Just been looking back a couple of threads that got locked for the same reasons but I've noticed that the term "world class" keeps coming up.

I'm just curious as to what people consider as world class? Is it someone who plays international rugby or makes the world cup/lions squad? Great kicker/ball carrier etc, despite any weakness?

I think it should be reserved for a standout player among their peers. Not just for a player who has an expert part to their game. For me the expression should clearly be reserved for the best in their position at any given time.

The reason I thought about it is that a friend of mine also regularly use the expression when he talks about Irish players that would be well down the pecking order of what I consider world class players

durkadurka

My rough definition would be top 3 or 4 in the world in your position.

Being a starting lion must put you there or thereabouts, although I dont think Shane Byrne ever was world class, so its tricky.

I would put Heaslip, POC, BOD there.

Sexton and SOB not yet but they could be on the brink of it.


some people apply the 'would walk onto any team in the world' definition.

Its pretty subjective to be fair.

endabob1

Top 2 ish in the world in your position. I would adapt the if you were picking a RWC squad from the planet, who would you pick?

From the Irish squad, only BOD falls straight into that category, Heaslip would be close, POC is nowhere near the player he was imo.

clsmooth

endabob1 wrote: »

Top 2 ish in the world in your position. I would adapt the if you were picking a RWC squad from the planet, who would you pick?

From the Irish squad, only BOD falls straight into that category, Heaslip would be close, POC is nowhere near the player he was imo.

I have to say POC has looked excellent in the pre-season friendlies and looks like he's back to his best. He looks strong and is right back in the middle of things. He is world class ie. He would be an asset to any team although that said I wouldn't say he's the best second row in the world.

Richie Grays-is he world class? I would say so. He'd add a lot to our pack

mrboswell

durkadurka wrote: »

My rough definition would be top 3 or 4 in the world in your position.

Being a starting lion must put you there or thereabouts, although I dont think Shane Byrne ever was world class, so its tricky.

I would put Heaslip, POC, BOD there.

Sexton and SOB not yet but they could be on the brink of it.


some people apply the 'would walk onto any team in the world' definition.

Its pretty subjective to be fair.

Agreed, there are many selected say for the lions that are best of a bad lot at the time the squad is selected. It is only a selection from 4 nations.

endabob1 wrote: »

Top 2 ish in the world in your position. I would adapt the if you were picking a RWC squad from the planet, who would you pick?

From the Irish squad, only BOD falls straight into that category, Heaslip would be close, POC is nowhere near the player he was imo.

I also agree about the top 2.
There would a handful of Irish players going on that definition.

durkadurka

clsmooth wrote: »

I have to say POC has looked excellent in the pre-season friendlies and looks like he's back to his best. He looks strong and is right back in the middle of things. He is world class ie. He would be an asset to any team although that said I wouldn't say he's the best second row in the world.

Richie Grays-is he world class? I would say so. He'd add a lot to our pack

I think you cant say that about the likes of Gray YET. Theres a lot of one season wonders around - I think you need to prove it over a few years at the top.

mrboswell

clsmooth wrote: »

I have to say POC has looked excellent in the pre-season friendlies and looks like he's back to his best. He looks strong and is right back in the middle of things. He is world class ie. He would be an asset to any team although that said I wouldn't say he's the best second row in the world.

Richie Grays-is he world class? I would say so. He'd add a lot to our pack

In fairness a good bag man and physio could be an asset to any them but that doesn't make them world class. I know that O'Connell is coming back to his best but because of the loose definition of world class a lot of players are included that maybe should not. O'Connell was out for a long time and is coming back to his best. At his best he is clearly world class, but I think he is currently just shy of it.

Sport101

For me its someone who any coach would legitimately think about selecting for a world XV.Don't think there's any of the Irish unit at the moment that could be considered world class on current form, perhaps Sean O'Brien but I can't see any of the rest of the squad causing selection headaches for the big game vs aliens XV.

MaryKing

endabob1 wrote: »

Top 2 ish in the world in your position. I would adapt the if you were picking a RWC squad from the planet, who would you pick?

From the Irish squad, only BOD falls straight into that category, Heaslip would be close, POC is nowhere near the player he was imo.

I'd be more inclined to go top 50 players in the world regardless of position as in some positions you may have a few players - for instance there are quite a few very fine No. 8s knocking around now.

Brian O'Driscoll isn't the player he once was either and there are quite a few outside centres who are better than him at the moment, but he would still make most teams because of his other qualities, just like Paul O'Connell would.

durkadurka

You need to factor 'doing it on the big stage' into it too.

BODs amazing performance in the first Lions test in 2001 made him jump from huge talent to world class imo.

If the likes of SOB have huge world cups that would put them into the bracket.

Tim Robbins

International class is someone who could play for Ireland. World Class is really for a World 15. So I'd agree you'd have to be in the top 2 - 3 for your position in the world. And have some consistency.

MaryKing

Sport101 wrote: »

For me its someone who any coach would legitimately think about selecting for a world XV.Don't think there's any of the Irish unit at the moment that could be considered world class on current form, perhaps Sean O'Brien but I can't see any of the rest of the squad causing selection headaches for the big game vs aliens XV.

Declan Kidney is going to have a selection head ache between Sean O'Brien & Stephen Ferris shortly.

Sport101

Perhaps, Ferris has to make it through 40 mins of rugby first, and has no cartilage on his knee so could be on a plane home at any stage if he takes a bad knock. I have a feeling Ferris will be used from the bench throughout the campaign.

MiCr0

[completely OT but i'd to laugh at the line "selection headaches for the big game vs aliens XV" - i'm not sure that that's going to be the biggest headache :-) ]

eyescreamcone

Interesting use of the term "world class" for rugby players, when very little of the planet actually plays this sport.

In fact it's only a little bit above calling GAA players "world class" or other sports that are played in only a few countries!!!
Darts etc!

bamboozle

tune into Johnny Giles & Dunphy on rte and they seem to spend most of their pre-match, half time and post match analysis arguing over which players are 'world class'
always get a kick out of Giles, he gives the impression he's been placed on earth to pronounce players world class!

as for rugby, the elite players who are game changers & who dominate at international level. ie BOD, Carter, Iardonaquay, Parisee, McCaw, Pocock, Brussow, Nick Easter...

no prizes for spotting the odd one out!

by the end of the world cup Genia, SOB and Heaslip will be considered world class

mrboswell

Sport101 wrote: »

Perhaps, Ferris has to make it through 40 mins of rugby first, and has no cartilage on his knee so could be on a plane home at any stage if he takes a bad knock. I have a feeling Ferris will be used from the bench throughout the campaign.

So he could be a world class impact player?

endabob1

MaryKing wrote: »

I'd be more inclined to go top 50 players in the world regardless of position as in some positions you may have a few players - for instance there are quite a few very fine No. 8s knocking around now.

Brian O'Driscoll isn't the player he once was either and there are quite a few outside centres who are better than him at the moment, but he would still make most teams because of his other qualities, just like Paul O'Connell would.

Honestly I can't think of many; Both Kiwis Conrad Smith & Sonny Bill are contenders but the latter is still finding his feet in Union and has played more at 12 than 13, Adam Ashley Cooper is another very good player but again he's more a utility man & I'd still take BOD over him. In the NH I don't think there's anyone in his class maybe it's the green tinted glasses

mrboswell

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Interesting use of the term "world class" for rugby players, when very little of the planet actually plays this sport.

In fact it's only a little bit above calling GAA players "world class" or other sports that are played in only a few countries!!!
Darts etc!

Well if we consider it has a world cup then its probably fair, if it is justified by playing ability, to use the term.

Gaa....no world cup. Darts...don't know...but probably played in more countries.

mrboswell

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that if we have to go to lengths to discuss if someone is world class or not then they probably are not world class....?

Magill

This thread = #facepalm

Sport101

Giles & Dunphy are both world class.

geotrig

BOD is not a wolrd class player ,he is a top class player but not "world" if that makes sense .france have always had equaly good if not sometime better centre's
poc is s bit better but again i still think their is better players around ,
my picks of world class players would be

Dan Carter
Ma'Nonu
umaga in his prime
dousatoir/hardonaquay or however you spell his name
i think SOB iS over hyped at present and has struggled at int level compared to province ,but he is the only one i see at present that has the potential
and the best ever rupeni caucau!

JustinDee

geotrig wrote: »

BOD is not a wolrd class player ,he is a top class player but not "world" if that makes sense .france have always had equaly good if not sometime better centre's
poc is s bit better but again i still think their is better players around

Completely blinkered and utterly subjective bilge.

geotrig wrote: »

my picks of world class players would beDan Carter
Ma'Nonu
umaga in his prime
dousatoir/hardonaquay or however you spell his name
i think SOB iS over hyped at present and has struggled at int level compared to province ,but he is the only one i see at present that has the potential
and the best ever rupeni caucau!

Ali v Tyson. Nothing more than your opinion in a Kiwi/French lovefest.
Sean O'Brien most definitely not over-hyped. He has whalloped leading breakways on the deck, ran good yards, made superb and crucial tackles and extremely rarely gives a turnover away.

justsomebloke

MiCr0 wrote: »

[completely OT but i'd to laugh at the line "selection headaches for the big game vs aliens XV" - i'm not sure that that's going to be the biggest headache :-) ]

I'm just picturing a rugby version of space jam, using POC instead of Jordan.

LeeroyJones

geotrig wrote: »

BOD is not a wolrd class player ,he is a top class player but not "world" if that makes sense .france have always had equaly good if not sometime better centre's
poc is s bit better but again i still think their is better players around ,
my picks of world class players would be

Care to venture a name?
I understand an argument which may suggest he is not world class now, but down through his career he is certainly world class. If you can perform on every stage in the world at a top level, then for me that player is world class. BOD did that for Leinster, Ireland and the Lions.
The 3 terms I would use for a World Class player are; top class, every level & consistently. BOD ticks those boxes

mrboswell

What about Jauzion?

Not to take away from the lions but its only from 4 nations so only really means that you get to be in a squad that plays a series against the world champs.

Consistency is the key but in all facets of the game

Leslie91

geotrig wrote: »

BOD is not a wolrd class player ,he is a top class player but not "world" if that makes sense .france have always had equaly good if not sometime better centre's
poc is s bit better but again i still think their is better players around ,
my picks of world class players would be

Dan Carter
Ma'Nonu
umaga in his prime
dousatoir/hardonaquay or however you spell his name
i think SOB iS over hyped at present and has struggled at int level compared to province ,but he is the only one i see at present that has the potential
and the best ever rupeni caucau!

BOD has been world class. He is not the player he was (who is as the years catch up on you?), but he is the best player ever to play for Ireland imho.

Heaslip has been close no doubt about it.

But if you are talking world class today you are looking at;

Dan Carter, Dusautoir, Harinordoquy, Parrisse and McCaw.

These are guys in their prime putting in World Class performances in the Test environment.

Sport101

Joe the Santa wrote: »

I'm just picturing a rugby version of space jam, using POC instead of Jordan.

But I think we are all in agreement on one thing, Its a rugby game they'll want.

geotrig

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Care to venture a name?
I understand an argument which may suggest he is not world class now, but down through his career he is certainly world class. If you can perform on every stage in the world at a top level, then for me that player is world class. BOD did that for Leinster, Ireland and the Lions.
The 3 terms I would use for a World Class player are; top class, every level & consistently. BOD ticks those boxes

jauzion /traille /marty rougerie (now) again not suying these are world class either just saying they are equal ! i think bod coasted from around 2003 on past preformances ,he did play well but he did add a couple of pounds and was just a good player then i think he has upped his game in teh last 2 years though
SOB will be world class if he continues the progress he is making but had stuggled in the first couple of games he has had at international level

if we produced world class players we would beat france and nz more than we currently do !

also not a kiwi / french loverfest just facts /results speaking for themselves

Leslie91

geotrig wrote: »

jauzion /traille /marty rougerie (now) again not suying these are world class either just saying they are equal !
SOB will be world class if he continues the progress he is making but had stuggled in the first couple of games he has had at international level

if we produced world class players we would beat france and nz more than we currently do !

also not a kiwi / french loverfest just facts /results speaking for themselves

Jauzion at his best is close to BOD at his best. Still put BOD top of that list you have.

No way has Traille ever been world class imho. Same goes for Rougerie, he was playing as a winger up until not so long ago so far too early to be terming him world class.

Sella would be an example of a world class French centre not these guys.

GerM

geotrig wrote: »

BOD is not a wolrd class player ,he is a top class player but not "world" if that makes sense .france have always had equaly good if not sometime better centre's
poc is s bit better but again i still think their is better players around ,
my picks of world class players would be

Dan Carter
Ma'Nonu
umaga in his prime
dousatoir/hardonaquay or however you spell his name
i think SOB iS over hyped at present and has struggled at int level compared to province ,but he is the only one i see at present that has the potential
and the best ever rupeni caucau!

Mentioning Caucau negates the rest of your argument. A half interested, discipline case who possesses bags of talent but doesn't apply them does not equate to world class under any circumstances.

If you select Umaga, in his prime, then why not BOD? The season following the Lions was made memorable simply by some of his play alone. The performances in the HEC were some of the most spectacular performances by any centre in history. Umaga was awful at the start of his international career. Harinordoquy and Nonu were similar and not rated by many for several years. If we're talking about just sections of a career, then to discount BOD is unthinkable.

LeeroyJones

geotrig wrote: »

jauzion /traille /marty rougerie (now) again not suying these are world class either just saying they are equal ! i think bod coasted from around 2003 on past preformances ,he did play well but he did add a couple of pounds and was just a good player then i think he has upped his game in teh last 2 years though
SOB will be world class if he continues the progress he is making but had stuggled in the first couple of games he has had at international level

if we produced world class players we would beat france and nz more than we currently do !

also not a kiwi / french loverfest just facts /results speaking for themselves

Echoing what Leslie91 said. Jauzion is the only player there who could even be considered to be in a similar bracket as BOD but BOD gets the nod hands down.
Over the decade or so which BOD has been performing he has been doing so at a top level with little or no breaks. Umaga, for me, is the only player who can be spoken in the same bracket as BOD.
The players you list are players who have performed well on the international stage but none of them have done it as long or as consistently as BOD.
I'm cautious not to come across as some biased fan blowing the Irish trumpet but to claim BOD hasn't been world class is ridiculous IMO.

I just wish international coaches underrated him as such!

On your last comment, what then are your results and facts which speak for themselves?!

geotrig

Leslie91 wrote: »

Jauzion at his best is close to BOD at his best. Still put BOD top of that list you have.

No way has Traille ever been world class imho. Same goes for Rougerie, he was playing as a winger up until not so long ago so far too early to be terming him world class.

Sella would be an example of a world class French centre not these guys.

not saying these guys are world class if you read it ! just saying they are good as with Brian.
ok take umaga of the list fair enough on that !

on caucau(everthing has to have a wildcard that defies logic ) ,yes he is/was troubled in the head but even when he wasnt interested he produced moments of magic or awesomness that are sublime.

my point on world class players is without a doudt if you where to pick a team they would be there no question asked every world class player is there for a different reason not just on 3 different criteria!

geotrig

geotrig wrote: »

i think SOB iS over hyped at present

I farted, sneezed, coughed, burped, hiccuped, sighed, tutted and yawned simultaneously when I read this.*

The guy has actually just won plaudits from every judge and jury, almost every award available to him, and refuses to stop getting better. if you think SOB is overhyped at present, you're nuts. The guy is deserving of everything thats been said about him. HEC Player of the year, a contender for ML player of the year, a HEC medal, a ML runners up medal, his first starting cap for Ireland. Cementing a place in both provincial and international back row. If the Lions went off tomorrow, he'd be first on the sheet. And he's still not finished getting better!!

* This left quite a mess

Leslie91

geotrig wrote: »

not saying these guys are world class if you read it ! just saying they are good as with Brian.
ok take umaga of the list fair enough on that !

on caucau(everthing has to have a wildcard that defies logic ) ,yes he is/was troubled in the head but even when he wasnt interested he produced moments of magic or awesomness that are sublime.

my point on world class players is without a doudt if you where to pick a team they would be there no question asked every world class player is there for a different reason not just on 3 different criteria!

OK, you were saying Jauzion, Traille, Marty and Rougerie are/have been as good as BOD.

Only Jauzion comes close imho.

Who is 'Caucau'?.

justsomebloke

GerM wrote: »

A half interested, discipline case who possesses bags of talent but doesn't apply them does not equate to world class under any circumstances.

Then I'm gathering it would be wrong for the mod to troll and suggest gavin henson as a world class player then?

CatFromHue

World class is defined as:
Ranking among the foremost in the world; of an international standard of excellence; of the highest order.

Players come into form and would be world class at some stage in their career but not for all of it. Gordon D'arcy was nominated for world player of the year in 2004, I think, so you could say his form that year was world class. His form was no where near as good last year so you he wasn't world class then.

MaryKing

Deleted User wrote: »

I farted, sneezed, coughed, burped, hiccuped, sighed, tutted and yawned simultaneously when I read this.*

The guy has actually just won plaudits from every judge and jury, almost every award available to him, and refuses to stop getting better. if you think SOB is overhyped at present, you're nuts. The guy is deserving of everything thats been said about him. HEC Player of the year, a contender for ML player of the year, a HEC medal, a ML runners up medal, his first starting cap for Ireland. Cementing a place in both provincial and international back row. If the Lions went off tomorrow, he'd be first on the sheet. And he's still not finished getting better!!

* This left quite a mess

Ronan O'Gara was selected as best player of the Heineken Cup in the first 15 years of its existence and has won plenty of trophies otherwise at international level. There are players who made that team who would not be rated at international level - like Anthony Foley for instance.

Sean has yet to do it at international level yet - thats why I would rate Ferris to be ahead of him.

JustinDee

Leslie91 wrote: »

Who is 'Caucau'?.

A Fijian winger who never seemed to care about the team he played for or his own career.
A waste of talent.

Trevor Kent

Joe the Santa wrote: »

Then I'm gathering it would be wrong for the mod to troll and suggest gavin henson as a world class player then?

Being a Mod you could be nice to yourself, you could give yourself a week ban, or just a warning in Bold text. Although noone likes a corrupt mod.:D

Trevor Kent

JustinDee wrote: »

A Fijian winger who never seemed to care about the team he played for or his own career.
A waste of talent.

But Christ could he play. Check him out on YouTube and see him cut teams in half.

JustinDee

Trevor Kent wrote: »

But Christ could he play. Check him out on YouTube and see him cut teams in half.

Sure could. However all that talent wasn't worth the fuss over whether or not he'd turn up for training or even a game.
If rugby was an individual sport, he would have been a champion for a short while.

Leslie91

geotrig wrote: »

not saying these guys are world class if you read it ! just saying they are good as with Brian.
ok take umaga of the list fair enough on that !

on caucau(everthing has to have a wildcard that defies logic ) ,yes he is/was troubled in the head but even when he wasnt interested he produced moments of magic or awesomness that are sublime.

my point on world class players is without a doudt if you where to pick a team they would be there no question asked every world class player is there for a different reason not just on 3 different criteria!

Ah.... your'e talking about Rupeni Caucaunibuca?. I don't know that he can be termed world class. He would need to be setting the HC on fire the whole time to qualify as he is held back internationally what with the quality of the lads around him.

Brendan97

dan carter, quade cooper, lomu was, there are many i would call someone a world class player if they can create a try out of nothing make near impossible kicks all the time or hardly ever miss a tackle even if the other player is massive or turn over possession in at least a quarter of all rucks they enter
if they do one of them they are world class in my opinion

Leslie91

Deleted User wrote: »

I farted, sneezed, coughed, burped, hiccuped, sighed, tutted and yawned simultaneously when I read this.*

The guy has actually just won plaudits from every judge and jury, almost every award available to him, and refuses to stop getting better. if you think SOB is overhyped at present, you're nuts. The guy is deserving of everything thats been said about him. HEC Player of the year, a contender for ML player of the year, a HEC medal, a ML runners up medal, his first starting cap for Ireland. Cementing a place in both provincial and international back row. If the Lions went off tomorrow, he'd be first on the sheet. And he's still not finished getting better!!

* This left quite a mess

That's the point. Sean O'Brien looks like a player who could be termed world class at some stage in the future. His international career is only getting going. Let's see how he goes in the WC. I'm not crowning him just yet but I do agree he is a magnificient young talent.

Thud

so how much of their career does a player have to have been world class for them to be remembered as world class??

Lomu had some miserable years towards the end of his career but is remembered as world class yet BOD who is prob playing a few percent below his best (he had been written off before also) is being claimed to be no longer world class here

mrboswell

Thud wrote: »

so how much of their career does a player have to have been world class for them to be remembered as world class??

Lomu had some miserable years towards the end of his career but is remembered as world class yet BOD who is prob playing a few percent below his best (he had been written off before also) is being claimed to be no longer world class here

Generally I'd say more than a season. When he was in his prime Lomu was unstoppable going forward, but a poor defender.
I'd saw world class in attack, but not not in general.

BOD is world class but starting to come to the edge of that bracket - he's getting older...

Piliger

In the top 5 in the world in their position(s) for most or all of even one season.

Leslie91

mrboswell wrote: »

Generally I'd say more than a season. When he was in his prime Lomu was unstoppable going forward, but a poor defender.
I'd saw world class in attack, but not not in general.

BOD is world class but starting to come to the edge of that bracket - he's getting older...

I agree, Lomu hadn't a clue when it came to defence. He wasn't a world class player in my book. Great going forward, running over people etc but that was it.

I can't believe for a minute that there are people on here who dispute that BOD was a world class player. Seriously, we've been blessed to see him play. My dad saw Mike Gibson, Jack Kyle etc live and he still says BOD is the best he has seen in an Irish jersey.

JustinDee

Some of the comments on players being 'world class' here are very strange indeed. An almost Myers-Dunphy-O'Toole style air of contrarianism.
Lomu was 'world-class'. He was the biggest thing to ever hit the sport at the time and would have strolled into any teamlist. Even in non-rugby playing countries he was talked about and known and still is.