How to calculate Dublin bus fare

subway

Can anyone explain this to me?

I don't get buses much, usually into city centre and just pay 2.50 and never take change.
Yesterday I dropped my car to a garage for repair and took the bus back. Asked the driver how much it would be and he said 1.65. Paid him and went home.

Now I am heading back to get my car, I just brought 1.65 with me. The different driver has just informed me that it doesn't cover the distance so I will have to get off and walk the remaining mile or so.

Bah

DjFlin

http://www.dublinbus.ie/Fares--Tickets/Fare-Information/Fares/

Thats Dublin Bus's breakdown of fares.

It can be hard to figure out at times because you never really know what a "Stage" is, and at times, neither do the drivers. I've often been overcharged by drivers who think I should be paying 2.30 when its 1.85.

Personally, I just use a bus pass now. Saves money and hassle.

subway

in the end the driver didnt make me get off the bus, so thats at least one positive outcome.
I've had a look at the link you provided and, as long as you have access to a computer before getting on a bus, you can work it out.
i was 2 "stages" from where i wanted to go so needed another 20c.

at least i know that one for future reference.

my little experience anyway has put me off using buses for another while, it seems the driver expects the passenger to know / tell him the fare and the passenger needs access to a computer to work out the fare

Magic Beans

Bring back the conductors. Let the driver drive and the conductor worry about collecting the fares.

bk

subway wrote: »

my little experience anyway has put me off using buses for another while, it seems the driver expects the passenger to know / tell him the fare and the passenger needs access to a computer to work out the fare

This is a very important point, the current system is hard to use, specially if it isn't your normal route and therefore discourages people from using the bus.

Public transport most be simple to use to encourage people to use it.

Magic Beans wrote: »

Bring back the conductors. Let the driver drive and the conductor worry about collecting the fares.

A much cheaper solution would be to just bring in flat fares, something like €3 cash, €1.60 smartcard.

Simple to use and understand and no need for extra staff and resulting costs.

KD345

Unfortunately, this is one area which is constantly overlooked by Dublin Bus and the NTA.

Passengers are expected to have the exact fare ready, know what stage they're boarding at and what stage their stop is when getting off, all this despite most stops not containing fare or stage information. It's not user friendly and doesn't encourage travel for the occasional bus user.

There is also the added problem of going to the bother of finding out the correct stage, only to board and discover the driver hasn't kept up to date with inputting the correct stage points throughout the route.

Personally, I think the best solution is to implement a fare zone structure in Dublin. Have a city zone (inside canal belt), a suburban zone (inside m50 belt) and an outer suburban zone (beyond m50). Have 3 simple fares which people can easily remember based on their location rather than a stage system that was designed over 50 years ago.

It could be introduced quickly with very little cost. We're constantly hearing about the Leap Smart card which will hopefully work successfully, but there will always be passengers who just happen to need to use a bus quickly and want to pay cash. For these people, using a bus shouldn't be confusing. It needs to be accessible and hassle free.

DjFlin

bk wrote: »

A much cheaper solution would be to just bring in flat fares, something like €3 cash, €1.60 smartcard.

Simple to use and understand and no need for extra staff and resulting costs.

I'd imagine DB make a hell of a lot of money from commuters who dont know their exact fare and pay more. Introducing a flat rate would make that less common. Plus, people travelling short distances would be in uproar if it cost the same as travelling all the way to/from town.

LXFlyer

KD345 wrote: »

Unfortunately, this is one area which is constantly overlooked by Dublin Bus and the NTA.

Passengers are expected to have the exact fare ready, know what stage they're boarding at and what stage their stop is when getting off, all this despite most stops not containing fare or stage information. It's not user friendly and doesn't encourage travel for the occasional bus user.

There is also the added problem of going to the bother of finding out the correct stage, only to board and discover the driver hasn't kept up to date with inputting the correct stage points throughout the route.

Personally, I think the best solution is to implement a fare zone structure in Dublin. Have a city zone (inside canal belt), a suburban zone (inside m50 belt) and an outer suburban zone (beyond m50). Have 3 simple fares which people can easily remember based on their location rather than a stage system that was designed over 50 years ago.

It could be introduced quickly with very little cost. We're constantly hearing about the Leap Smart card which will hopefully work successfully, but there will always be passengers who just happen to need to use a bus quickly and want to pay cash. For these people, using a bus shouldn't be confusing. It needs to be accessible and hassle free.

Just to re-emphasise this - Dublin Bus are not responsible for the fact that we still have the staged fare system.

That is the responsiblity of the regulatory authority - formerly the DoT and now the NTA - but effectively the Minister for Transport.

Dublin Bus did attempt to bring in a flat fare at the time of the EURO introduction but the Department said no.

LXFlyer

DjFlin wrote: »

I'd imagine DB make a hell of a lot of money from commuters who dont know their exact fare and pay more. Introducing a flat rate would make that less common. Plus, people travelling short distances would be in uproar if it cost the same as travelling all the way to/from town.

The overages go into a ring-fenced fund either to be refunded or, if unclaimed after several years, is subsequently used for community support projects.

DjFlin

lxflyer wrote: »

The overages go into a ring-fenced fund either to be refunded or, if unclaimed after several years, is subsequently used for community support projects.

Huh, I didnt know that. Its good to hear though.

Magic Beans

lxflyer wrote: »

The overages go into a ring-fenced fund either to be refunded or, if unclaimed after several years, is subsequently used for community support projects.

What a load of blatant horseshyte! How are the overages identified? Explain that? Once the money goes in the machine that is the end of it unless an inspector catches a person travelling beyond their ticket validity. There is absolutely no way of telling who actually got full value for their fare. If I get off the bus a stage too soon will that extra fare go into this magic ring-fenced fund? Yeah right. :rolleyes:

markpb

Magic Beans wrote: »

What a load of blatant horseshyte! How are the overages identified? Explain that? Once the money goes in the machine that is the end of it unless an inspector catches a person travelling beyond their ticket validity. There is absolutely no way of telling who actually got full value for their fare. If I get off the bus a stage too soon will that extra fare go into this magic ring-fenced fund? Yeah right. :rolleyes:

I presume he means the uncollected change tickets. They're kept and given to the DB charities after a few years.

starfish12

I think lxflyer was referring to the over payments, i.e. people who get a receipt to collect their change from DB but never do, not moneys reclaimed from incorrect fares...

I live in Edinburgh, it's £1.30 for a single journey anywhere in the city on Lothian buses. It's £3 for a ticket that is valid from 00:00 - 23:59 that day on any of Lothian buses.

You can get a swipe card that costs you ~ £45 a month that gives you unlimited travel on the buses for that month.

Take away the complicated systems of payment and everything runs so much smoother. There's no ambiguity of what you should and shouldn't pay, the driver only accepts two different fares (there's a schoolchild fare and a child fare too, but that's it) and the time at the stop is far shorter as a result.

Magic Beans

markpb wrote: »

I presume he means the uncollected change tickets. They're kept and given to the DB charities after a few years.

That is correct but giving change is a different topic altogether, we are discussing a different topic namely the unwieldiness of the current fare stage system and the difficulty for commutters in determining the correct fare. In order to avoid the possibility of fines some commuters err on the side of paying more than is due.

DjFlin wrote:

I'd imagine DB make a hell of a lot of money from commuters who dont know their exact fare and pay more.

I did get a little over-excited though, sorry about that.

LXFlyer

Magic Beans wrote: »

What a load of blatant horseshyte! How are the overages identified? Explain that? Once the money goes in the machine that is the end of it unless an inspector catches a person travelling beyond their ticket validity. There is absolutely no way of telling who actually got full value for their fare. If I get off the bus a stage too soon will that extra fare go into this magic ring-fenced fund? Yeah right. :rolleyes:

The OP said they throw in EUR 2.50 and do not bother with the change receipt. There is no EUR 2.50 fare!

My point was that money does not go into DB coffers - it is kept separate.

A totally different issue is people asking for a higher fare than that appropriate without checking - frankly they should know better - always ask the driver if you're not sure (occasionally they may make a mistake, but most of the time they will get it right).

subway

a flat or standard rate would be preferable for me, that or integrated / post pay ticketing.
will be looking into leap cards.

anyway, the thread has certainly raised a few interesting points -
DB has the most complex fare system
it also the most opaque fare system, most stops dont indicate what stage you are at, or where the next stages are. nevermind how much it might cost to get there

in some cases the driver does not issue a ticket that is valid as he/she has not updated the stage on the machine. in this instance, should a passenger refuse to accept the ticket and ask for one to be re-issued. i assume, under bylaws, its a passengers responsibilty to ensure they have a valid ticket so anyone issues with a wrong starting stage ticket is liable to a fine if inspected

DB is the only transport where the driver also operates the fare payment system, do not give change and do not accept notes. the driver also has the most knowledge of the fare system and, with stops located along main roads etc, the passenger, like me, can be caught out. luas stops / train stations tend to inherently have more services nearby than every single bus stop
for example, with a luas, i can buy my ticket while waiting. if i do not have the correct fare i can use a note or card in the machine. if i am still short i can go off to get more cash and still come back in time to buy a ticket and get a tram. with DB i could wait 15 minutes for a bus, only to find out (as i did) that i am 20c short. at this stage it may be too late as i am already on the bus (in my case it was moving) and would have to get back off at the next stop, walk home, obtain extra money and then wait for the next bus.

as has been noted above, i am now aware that DB actually do not want this archaic and mystical fare system. i really would prefer a flat rate but since that isnt happening any time soon, its a leap card for me

Devilman40k

subway wrote: »

a flat or standard rate would be preferable for me, that or integrated / post pay ticketing.
will be looking into leap cards.

anyway, the thread has certainly raised a few interesting points -
DB has the most complex fare system
it also the most opaque fare system, most stops dont indicate what stage you are at, or where the next stages are. nevermind how much it might cost to get there

You have no idea, there have been some very interesting discrepancies in the DB fare system over the years.

For example (and these have all been in my general area so if there are more feel free to add to it)

The 83 to city centre from Kimmage is €1.85 while the 19A/54A/150 (all within 5/6 minutes walk of 83) are €1.65 to CC. They even share stops on the way out of the CC on Dame St!

or even stranger still the old 56/A 77 discrepancy travelling from Crumlin Road to The Square in Tallaght (77 - (1.85) 56/A full fare (2.20))

In both cases I know there is a distance travelled issue, but surely a flat fare/zonal model would be better and less confusing for passengers than having 2(or possibly more) routes at the same stop going to same destination charging different fares.

Magic Beans

lxflyer wrote: »

The OP said they throw in EUR 2.50 and do not bother with the change receipt. There is no EUR 2.50 fare!

My point was that money does not go into DB coffers - it is kept separate.

If the OP took the change ticket and never cashed it you would be correct.
The cynic in me says that the change ticket that the op never takes doesn't make it to any fund but ends up in someone's pocket to be cashed privately later. A nice little earner for someone if this happens all day every day.

subway

Correct,I never ask the driver for the receipt and they never print them.
Where would that cash go?

LXFlyer

Magic Beans wrote: »

If the OP took the change ticket and never cashed it you would be correct.
The cynic in me says that the change ticket that the op never takes doesn't make it to any fund but ends up in someone's pocket to be cashed privately later. A nice little earner for someone if this happens all day every day.

Unfortunately for your cynical theory, for the the change ticket to be valid, it must have the original ticket attached.

Is it any wonder that CIE staff do get upset here from time to time when posts such as this are made - frankly that is tantamount to alleging fraud on a widespread scale amongst CIE staff.

For one minute could you countenance that the vast majority are like the rest of us - people who do an honest days' work without this sort of nonsense being suggested.

Magic Beans

What happens to the 20c if no change ticket is issued? Or are they an automatic issue?

Stripey Cat

lxflyer wrote: »

alleging fraud on a widespread scale amongst CIE staff.

Do you remember the old "go ahead" system?

KD345

Devilman40k wrote: »

the old 56/A 77 discrepancy travelling from Crumlin Road to The Square in Tallaght (77 - (1.85) 56/A full fare (2.20))

There are many examples. You can also travel on Route 77 from Kevin Street to Dolphin's Barn for €1.20, but the same journey on the 151, using the same stops, is €1.65.

If you were traveling from Jamestown Road to Phibsboro Shopping Centre it would cost you €1.85 on a 140 (10 stages), but just €1.65 on a 19/19A (5 stages)

If you were traveling from Parnell Street on a 123 to SCR in Kilmainham the 123 works out cheaper than the 19 from Parnell Square as it's one less stage.

The 13 from IKEA to O'Connell Street is €1.85 (11 stages), while the 140 making the same journey costs €2.30 (14 stages).

In some parts of Drimnagh the 123 is also cheaper to O'Connell Street than the 122.

It's clear that the stage system is outdated. It never really progressed as the city and bus network grew and the 140 is a good example of that. It's designed to work with main Finglas corridor, but then gets messy when it meets the 19/19A at Jamestown Road and is still out of sequence with the 13 and 13A at IKEA resulting in different fares for the same distance.

Weyhey

Stripey Cat wrote: »

Do you remember the old "go ahead" system?

I remember it from childhood. I used to be mortified when the adult I was with would wink at the conductor and use the dreaded words 'go ahead'. I also remember one time when the bus inspector got on and the 'lost' ticket was blamed on me.

bk

DjFlin wrote: »

Plus, people travelling short distances would be in uproar if it cost the same as travelling all the way to/from town.

You know, sometimes you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet!!

This is exactly the problem with Ireland, we are afraid to fix the system for the benefit of the majority of users for fear of pissing off a small but vocal minority.

As this thread has clearly shown, DB is far too difficult to understand and use for your average local, nevermind some poor tourist.

No offense to any drivers here, but IME many drivers don't even know what the correct fare should be and when asked just shrug and say lob €1.65 in.

This just isn't acceptable for a modern transport system and yes I'm well aware it is the governments fault, hopefully the NTA will rectify it.

BTW I'm in favour of flat fares over zonal fares as it is much simpler and will be much less complicated to use with integrated tickets. A Zonal system would require you to either tag on and tag off or talk to the driver when tagging on. A flat favour just requires tag on and no talking to a driver.

Given the cost of the Travel 90 at €1.90 per ticket, that says to me that DB should be able to do a flat fare €1.70 with smart card, €3 cash.

Devilman40k

KD345 wrote: »

There are many examples. You can also travel on Route 77 from Kevin Street to Dolphin's Barn for €1.20, but the same journey on the 151, using the same stops, is €1.65.

If you were traveling from Jamestown Road to Phibsboro Shopping Centre it would cost you €1.85 on a 140 (10 stages), but just €1.65 on a 19/19A (5 stages)

If you were traveling from Parnell Street on a 123 to SCR in Kilmainham the 123 works out cheaper than the 19 from Parnell Square as it's one less stage.

The 13 from IKEA to O'Connell Street is €1.85 (11 stages), while the 140 making the same journey costs €2.30 (14 stages).

In some parts of Drimnagh the 123 is also cheaper to O'Connell Street than the 122.

It's clear that the stage system is outdated. It never really progressed as the city and bus network grew and the 140 is a good example of that. It's designed to work with main Finglas corridor, but then gets messy when it meets the 19/19A at Jamestown Road and is still out of sequence with the 13 and 13A at IKEA resulting in different fares for the same distance.

More importantly with the new "super-routes" like the 27/77 128/15 link ups what is the fare going to be, is it €2.20 end to end, or is it €2.20 from say Tallaght to CC and then another €2.20 on to the other end?

bk

subway wrote: »

I don't get buses much, usually into city centre and just pay 2.50 and never take change.

If you are doing this then you should just get a Travel 90 card. Costs €19 and gives you 10 tickets with unlimited bus travel for 90 minutes.

So works out at €1.90 per ticket and no need to worry about stages or correct change.

Hopefully we will get the leap cards soon and it will solve all of these issues.

subway

I probably should, but I don't usually plan to take a bus, sometimes there is just one there and it's handier than getting a dart or waiting on a lift.

Weyhey

bk wrote: »

If you are doing this then you should just get a Travel 90 card. Costs €19 and gives you 10 tickets with unlimited bus travel for 90 minutes.

So works out at €1.90 per ticket and no need to worry about stages or correct change.

Hopefully we will get the leap cards soon and it will solve all of these issues.

Last time I got it it was only one ticket that you can use 10 times.

It was very handy when it was a book of 10 tickets so more than one person at a time could use it. I think there might have been another single ticket after this where the date and time of each use was printed on the ticket so you knew how many uses you had left. The last time I got the Travel 90 however it was a single ticket and you couldn't tell how many uses you had left without actually trying to use it. Not very good when you only used the bus infrequently or as I did for long journeys where I had to get two buses back to back.

LXFlyer

Devilman40k wrote: »

More importantly with the new "super-routes" like the 27/77 128/15 link ups what is the fare going to be, is it €2.20 end to end, or is it €2.20 from say Tallaght to CC and then another €2.20 on to the other end?

Stays the exact same fare structure - EUR 2.20 over 13 stages.

That has already implemented on route 14 when it merged with the 20b and the 39a when it was merged with the 10.

DjFlin

I was thinking today about the rising prices of tickets.

When I started college, a 5 Day Student Rambler was €15. Now its €16.50. Thats a 10% rise in two years. Which wouldn't be that big of an issue, if the buses on my route hadn't been cut by about 25%

AlekSmart

An excellent,if repeated topic.

The first issue requiring IMMEDIATE action from Dublin Bus is to ensure the integrity of whatever "system" it purports to operate.

Currently,although Dublin Bus claims to operate a Stage based Fare System....
http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Fares--Tickets/Fare-Information/

.....actually utilising it correctly (and legally) as required ....

Stages

The number of stages travelled is calculated by deducting the boarding stage number from the alighting stage number

Passengers boarding between stage points pay the
appropriate fare from the preceding stage point.

Passengers alighting between stage points pay the appropriate fare to the next stage point.

All route stages are listed under the timetables.

....is well nigh impossible as the Company has endeavoured to remove ALL stage numbers from the respective Bus Stops.

It is worth noting that whilst stages are indeed listed under the timetables,they are in many cases ambiguously described with ample scope for mistake and subsequent unseemly argument.

I contend that NONE of the Companys fare-calculation requirements can be carried out presently (by Customers OR Staff),as the relevant identifying numbers have been removed.

DjFlin : I was thinking today about the rising prices of tickets.

When I started college, a 5 Day Student Rambler was €15. Now its €16.50. Thats a 10% rise in two years. Which wouldn't be that big of an issue, if the buses on my route hadn't been cut by about 25%
Today 16:39

DjFlin hits a home run here with the very pertinent point that the Company is continually being asked to erode any financial benefit of Pre-Paid Ticket Use in order to maintain a totally unsustainable €1.20 Baseline fare.

If it were my call,In the absence of any structured Government National Fares Policy,I would have made a HUGE song & dance out of freezing the cost of pre-paid smart card based tickets whilst upping the cash fare by c.10%+.

This is the same policy being adopted by the majority of our Utility companies now as they offer considerable discounts for on-line billing and direct debit payments.

However,all that being said....what can be done immediately and at minimal cost is to identify the stages to customers (and Staff) on the ground.
This was the standard practice with our Stage System for over 40 years,so both customers and staff are due an explanation as to why the decision was taken to envelop the process in a cloak of mystery.