Major green energy development rejected

MagicSean

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0818/wind.html

An Bord Pleanála has refused planning permission for a large wind farm in east Connemara, overturning an earlier decision by Galway County Council.

The development at Lettermuckoo, Muckanaghkillew, would have comprised 27 wind turbines 139 metres tall, as well as access roads, electricity substations, cabling and control buildings.

The wind farm would have had the potential to produce enough electricity to supply almost 40,000 households with power each year, the equivalent of three quarters of households in Co Galway.

The 1000 hectare site, near Rossaveal, is currently used for agriculture and turf-cutting.

The An Bord Pleanála inspector reviewing the case recommended that permission be granted subject to 21 conditions being met.

However, the board refused the planned development on a number of grounds, including that it would be an excessively dominant feature and visually obtrusive form of development in the Connemara landscape.

It said the Connemara landscape is one of the principal assets of the tourism industry in Co Galway and the proposed development is located on a prominent site in east Connemara in a an area which is part of the Connemara Bog Complex Special Area of Conservation.

The site is also within an area with a high-value coastal tourism infrastructure and fisheries resource, it said.

It found that the development would erode the visual and environmental amenity of this area and would contravene the objectives of the County Development Plan 2009-2015 to protect this sensitive landscape designation.

The plan was developed as a collaborative partnership between a wind farm development company and a group of 20 local landowners.

It was estimated that construction would have taken 18 months and would have generated employment during that phase. However, just 10 maintenance personnel would have been needed at the wind farm once it was up and running. The wind farm was expected to have a lifespan of between 20 and 25 years.

A 10-year planning permission was granted for the development by Galway County Council - against the recommendation of its planner - in March of this year.

However, a number of parties had objected to the plan, including Inland Fisheries Ireland who voiced concerns that the pressures in the catchments affected would impact fish populations.

An Taisce also objected to the proposals, arguing the development would have a detrimental impact on the peatlands and natural life in the area.

Responding to An Bord Pleanála's decision, An Taisce said it had considered the site formed part of the internationally significant mountain bog and lake Connemara landscape area.

It said the decision follows a number of other similar refusals of permission for wind farm projects by An Bord Pleanála.

This, it claimed, highlights the need for an effective national strategy for future wind energy development to reconcile the imperative of meeting renewable energy targets, while at the same time protecting biodiversity and our most iconic landscapes.

Consultants disappointed by decision

Reacting to the news, consultants acting on behalf of the wind farm development company. Gaoi An Iarthar Teo, said they were disappointed with the decision.

Brian Keville, of McCarthy Keville O'Sullivan Planning and Environmental Consultants, said they took heart from the inspector's report which recommended that the development be granted permission.

He said the €150m wind farm had the potential to generate enough green renewable energy to service 40,000 homes. It would also have put around €750,000 a year into the local economy through payments to landowners and local community funds - an area which is experiencing a new wave of mass unemployment and emigration, Mr Keville said.

He said those involved in the project would now study the inspector's report in detail, before deciding what their next step should be.

He said Galway County Council had recently completed a new draft wind energy strategy, which said the area concerned was in principle acceptable for windfarms and today's decision calls into question the point of county councils going to the bother of producing such plans.

Depite all the benefits this development would provide to the local area and Irelands environment it has been rejected. Sometimes I wonder if there is any hope for the country at all.

ei.sdraob

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0818/wind.html



Depite all the benefits this development would provide to the local area and Irelands environment it has been rejected. Sometimes I wonder if there is any hope for the country at all.

What about all the damage to tourism by carpeting Connemara in giant windmills?

MagicSean

ei.sdraob wrote: »

What about all the damage to tourism by carpeting Connemara in giant windmills?

Would it really have that bad an effect? In an area where there is widespread unemployment surely tourism is not exactly booming.

flanzer

Was in Barcelona a number of months back and then down towards Salou. They're everywhere up in the mountains. You not gonna bump into these windmills staggering home locked in the middle of the night. They're generally off the beaten track, but visible. I'd eat my right bollock off it they did any damage to tourism.

It's the 'down with that sort of thing' attitude that has this country stuck in the dark ages

ei.sdraob

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

Would it really have that bad an effect? In an area where there is widespread unemployment surely tourism is not exactly booming.

Where is the impact study that this will not harm tourism?


How will erecting Chinese/Danish made turbines increase jobs locally? How many local people will be employed in construction and maintenance?? We already had a once of job boom with building homes all over the place...


Also the people in same area also dont want any pylons going thru the area from what I remember from few years ago when eirgrid proposed new pylons since Connemara badly needs a grid upgrade to cope with existing demand, no point building windmills if they cant be connected.

flanzer wrote: »

Was in Barcelona a number of months back and then down towards Salou. They're everywhere up in the mountains. You not gonna bump into these windmills staggering home locked in the middle of the night. They're generally off the beaten track, but visible. I'd eat my right bollock off it they did any damage to tourism.

It's the 'down with that sort of thing' attitude that has this country stuck in the dark ages

Salou yes, a beacon of sustainable development and how tourism should be done...

scotty_irish

I suggest you take a read of this thread, it's a very long read with many external links but very worthwhile to gain an understanding of energy generation in Ireland. Wind energy is discussed in detail and why it doesn't make economic or environmental sense.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055707984

MagicSean

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Where is the impact study that this will not harm tourism?

Where is the study to show it would?

ei.sdraob wrote: »

How will erecting Chinese/Danish made turbines increase jobs locally? How many local people will be employed in construction and maintenance?? We already had a once of job boom with building homes all over the place...

The development came with promises of major investment into the community. Much in the way Intel and HP did in Leixlip. And even if the main jobs weren't given to locals, a development of this size would need major support staff which would likely be local.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Also the people in same area also dont want any pylons going thru the area from what I remember from few years ago when eirgrid proposed new pylons since Connemara badly needs a grid upgrade to cope with existing demand, no point building windmills if they cant be connected.

What's wrong with burying the power lines?

ei.sdraob

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

Where is the study to show it would?

Really now :rolleyes:

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

The development came with promises of major investment into the community. Much in the way Intel and HP did in Leixlip. And even if the main jobs weren't given to locals, a development of this size would need major support staff which would likely be local.

How about binding agreements and contracts

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

What's wrong with burying the power lines?

It costs 10x to create and maintain, dont forget what happened in the west when they tried to lay a single gas pipe....

scotty_irish

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

Where is the study to show it would?




The development came with promises of major investment into the community. Much in the way Intel and HP did in Leixlip. And even if the main jobs weren't given to locals, a development of this size would need major support staff which would likely be local.




What's wrong with burying the power lines?

says in the article you quoted only about ten maintenance staff would be required.

The costs of underground cable systems can vary widely even for the same voltage, power and length,
making it difficult to generalise. Costs for individual projects can and do vary significantly. Using modern
cable techniques it costs approximately 12 to 17 times as much to install a typical 400 kV double circuit
underground cable as it does to build an equivalent length of double circuit overhead line through normal
rural / urban terrain.

http://www.nationalgrid.com/NR/rdonlyres/A7B84851-242F-496B-A5E8-697331E15504/36546/UndergroundingTheTechnicalIssues5.pdf

Cill Dara Abu

Well where I work, the company applied for planning permission to build a bio-fuel plant, which consisted of 3 sheds, the erections of tanks and a new entrance ,etc.

The planning permission was sought in 2009 and only a few months ago it was finally granted after a long struggle with the local council.

This place would'nt create that many jobs, maybe 4 or 5 but the struggle with the council is a joke.

galway2007

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0818/wind.html



Depite all the benefits this development would provide to the local area and Irelands environment it has been rejected. Sometimes I wonder if there is any hope for the country at all.

What benefits???
Ok there would be a construction phase for a few years but what then??
Tourist’s number is up by 25% this year in Galway and Galway country so that is what this county need
Galway county council would give planning to build anything anywhere

yawnstretch

Whoever thinks windmills are an eyesore should be shot.

I hope you enjoy the polluted view when we've devasted the only known habitable planet.

ei.sdraob

yawnstretch wrote: »

Whoever thinks windmills are an eyesore should be shot.

Gas and nuclear plants take up much less room...

yawnstretch wrote: »

I hope you enjoy the polluted view when we've devasted the only known habitable planet.

The irony of visually polluting the landscape with unreliable windmills and pylons to connect them in order to save the planet from pollution :rolleyes:

yawnstretch

Stupidest thing I've read all day - and I've been mostly reading Reddit.

I'd be bloody delighted if ten windmills were put around my house (if I had one). Better than the crap that does get approved almost everywhere.

This would be an attraction because it shows that we give a damn.

yawnstretch

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Gas and nuclear plants take up much less room...

-->Tell that to the Japanese.


The irony of visually polluting the landscape with unreliable windmills and pylons to connect them in order to save the planet from pollution :rolleyes:

Ironic that laws intended to protect us are being used to destroy our only hope for survival you mean.

ei.sdraob

yawnstretch wrote: »

Stupidest thing I've read all day - and I've been mostly reading Reddit.

I'd be bloody delighted if ten windmills were put around my house (if I had one). Better than the crap that does get approved almost everywhere.

This would be an attraction because it shows that we give a damn.

How about having the least visually polluted landscape in western europe as an attraction

yawnstretch

ei.sdraob wrote: »

How about having the least visually polluted landscape in western europe as an attraction

Good luck with that with your nuke plants.

ei.sdraob

yawnstretch wrote: »

Good luck with that with your nuke plants.

Considering we wouldn't have to build 1st Gen plants nor are located in the worlds most seismically active area like Japanese, other EU countries like Finland and France are doing quite well also

yawnstretch wrote: »

Ironic that laws intended to protect us are being used to destroy our only hope for survival you mean.

I dont see how a country can survive on 10MW of electricity :rolleyes:

yes at this point of time of this post the countries ~1900MW installed megawatts of wind are only generating 10MW

Over the last year on average on 20% of installed capacity was being generated at any half hour interval

galway2007

yawnstretch wrote: »

Stupidest thing I've read all day - and I've been mostly reading Reddit.

I'd be bloody delighted if ten windmills were put around my house (if I had one). Better than the crap that does get approved almost everywhere.

This would be an attraction because it shows that we give a damn.

You need to visit a site where they have being constructed and see the devastation that is left behind
They destroy the local road structure when construction them and they leave the surrounding land unusable and in some cases they have even cause mud slides due to the damage they have left behind

MOSSAD

ei.sdraob wrote: »

What about all the damage to tourism by carpeting Connemara in giant windmills?

At most they would be there for 20 years, then they come down. Also, the inspector recommended the project go ahead. However Jane Doyle one of the board members has a thing about visuals...wonder if she actually went to visit the site?
Must be nice to have a state job and a pension to boot.

Suryavarman

MOSSAD wrote: »

At most they would be there for 20 years, then they come down. Also, the inspector recommended the project go ahead. However Jane Doyle one of the board members has a thing about visuals...wonder if she actually went to visit the site?
Must be nice to have a state job and a pension to boot.

What will we do for electricity when they come down?

Head The Wall

galway2007 wrote: »

What benefits???

How about not relying on external sources for power, ask yourself why are the electricity companies increasing their prices by 20% and greater!

I also think wind turbines make us look progressive and forward thinking.

yawnstretch

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Considering we wouldn't have to build 1st Gen plants nor are located in the worlds most seismically active area like Japanese, other EU countries like Finland and France are doing quite well also




I dont see how a country can survive on 10MW of electricity :rolleyes:

yes at this point of time of this post the countries ~1900MW installed megawatts of wind are only generating 10MW

Over the last year on average on 20% of installed capacity was being generated at any half hour interval

Would you really trust the Irish with a nuclear power plant? Like every other development in this country it'd go flawlessly yeah?

Speaking of 1st generation and efficiency - that's what the windmills are and any person with foresight would be proud to be a part of the development of sustainable technology.

Suryavarman

Head The Wall wrote: »

How about not relying on external sources for power, ask yourself why are the electricity companies increasing their prices by 20% and greater!

One of the companies raising their prices is AIRtricity! Wind power doesn't seem to exempt us from price rises.

I also think wind turbines make us look progressive and forward thinking.

Great idea, lets base our entire energy policy on how it makes us look to all our friends :rolleyes:

yawnstretch

galway2007 wrote: »

You need to visit a site where they have being constructed and see the devastation that is left behind
They destroy the local road structure when construction them and they leave the surrounding land unusable and in some cases they have even cause mud slides due to the damage they have left behind

Sorry - I have been to a few and you like the rest dont know what you're talking about.

Beautiful they are - and take up very little space.

I swear the people moaning about the eyesore and the "impact" on the local environment would be the first to approve pretty much ANY other human development imaginable and ignore these "issues".

yawnstretch

Suryavarman wrote: »

One of the companies raising their prices is AIRtricity! Wind power doesn't seem to exempt us from price rises.



Great idea, lets base our entire energy policy on how it makes us look to all our friends :rolleyes:

Which is it mate? Do they look good to the rest of the world or do they destroy the visual landscape? Or will you just switch to whatever suits your "burn the planet to the ground" consumer mentality?

MOSSAD

yawnstretch wrote: »

Ironic that laws intended to protect us are being used to destroy our only hope for survival you mean.

Clare County Council finally got a progressive head planner who after much consultation finally put in place a great wind zoning map for the county.
However the environment section tried to scupper the zoning by putting SPAs next to or smack in the middle of the zoned areas. The councillors rejected these amendments and the planner's zoning went ahead.
Not giving up, Birdwatch Ireland, apparently under contract from the Environment section has been compiling a birdmap of Clare from Moy, near Lahinch,east to the Kilmaley/Kilnamona border and south to below Lisseycasey-close to 30% of the county. The plan is create a "wildlife park" with a ban on wind energy, restrictions on forestry and restrictions on farming.
What sort of fascist behaviour is this?
How are people going to make a living? Who are the apparatchiks who decide these things?

Someone needs to shout stop to this nonsense.

yawnstretch

Farming kills the birds. I doubt a couple of windmills will suck in every eagle, vulture and sparrow in the area.

The problem is that farmers accidentally poison endangered birds...

MagicSean

yawnstretch wrote: »

Farming kills the birds. I doubt a couple of windmills will suck in every eagle, vulture and sparrow in the area.

The problem is that farmers "accidentally" poison endangered birds...

FYP

Suryavarman

yawnstretch wrote: »

Which is it mate?

Mate? Didn't realise we were friends.

Do they look good to the rest of the world or do they destroy the visual landscape? Or will you just switch to whatever suits your "burn the planet to the ground" consumer mentality?

They are monstrosities that destroy the landscape but that is not the reason I object to them. I object to them because they are not economically viable and they are very unreliable.

yawnstretch

Anyway. It sounds like it's "fait du compli" so the naysayers have brought us one step closer to extinction.

Cheers!

EvesBlogg

what.
what happened to developing ireland as a green energy exporter and ...did I say what...
they dont look that bad at all...whoever is objecting to this is ~weetarded
has anyone ever seen those programs documenting what happens when oil starts to become really expensive and scarce...you would be looking back thinking 'remember how cheap it was back around 2011' ah, the good old days...now they are invading countries with oil - oh wait they have already done that..
eventually they will have to allow this farm (times 1000) i wish they wouldnt pussyfoot around for years wasting time and ignoring the obvious and the inevitable

scotty_irish

yawnstretch wrote: »

Anyway. It sounds like it's "fait du compli" so the naysayers have brought us one step closer to extinction.

Cheers!

I love your attempts at sounding intelligent, I caught you on an irish one before, this time - I think you meant to say "fait accompli". Might I suggest a quick google before you post something like that, or maybe stop trying to sound intelligent?

And while you're googling, maybe look up some basic facts relating to wind turbines. Quantitative evidence that they're economically and environmentally viable (non-biased data from reputable sources). Cheers!

ei.sdraob

yawnstretch wrote: »

Anyway. It sounds like it's "fait du compli" so the naysayers have brought us one step closer to extinction.

Cheers!

35 MW of power out of 1900MW would mean extinction of the Irish economy
I suppose we could import some power for the UK then but the weather is quite nice there today too... Or maybe turn to French for some of that nuclear power of theirs to be piped here (at great transmission losses too)

Maybe they should build a windfarm in the Dublin mountains overlooking Dublin so the Dubliners can see for themselves day and night how useless these things are. Sure its only environmentally friendly to be keeping production close to demand...

Head The Wall wrote: »

How about not relying on external sources for power, ask yourself why are the electricity companies increasing their prices by 20% and greater!

In order to deal with the unreliability of wind we need more connectivity to UK and Europe, this by itself means we become more dependant on others and loosing up to 10% of what's generated over transmission lines

Head The Wall wrote: »

I also think wind turbines make us look progressive and forward thinking.

I dont see how subsidising Chinese jobs and exporting pollution there is progressive or forward thinking

yawnstretch wrote: »

Would you really trust the Irish with a nuclear power plant? Like every other development in this country it'd go flawlessly yeah?

Yes I would trust Irish engineers, I already had the privilege of working in power generation and we already trust our engineers on running plants which would create alot of **** if an accident were to happen, your PC right now is powered by electricity run by Irish engineers. And sure we have a smart economy dont we?

yawnstretch wrote: »

Speaking of 1st generation and efficiency - that's what the windmills are and any person with foresight would be proud to be a part of the development of sustainable technology.

Ah i dont have foresight, i see

Well my foresight tells me something is awful wrong when the same rhetoric that was used to justify house overbuilding is being used now in a green bubble, hows that for foresight?

Delancey

It has become almost an article of faith or Political Correctness that '' if its Green then it must be good ''.
I am delighted that Board Pleanala did not feel compelled to fall into line with this dangerous thinking.
The damage to the visual environment in my opinion far outweighed the benefits ( if any )of this plan.

I belive that ' Green ' will be the next bubble .......

hmmm

I'm also ambivalent about on-shore windfarms, but the key issue I take from this is not the arguments for or against windfarms, it's the confused messages that emerge from the planning authorities which make planning and investing such a mess in this country.

What investors need is clear guidelines where windfarms are suitable. What they don't need is to wait for debate between various state bodies, who end up fighting with each other and issuing conflicting reports, each of whom have veto powers over a development. No sane investor wants to tie up capital for years while these bodies spend forever coming up with an arbitrary decision.

Chris_5339762

I despise these things, not just because they are ugly and obtrusive, noisy bloody things, but they are forced down your throat as being the answer to all our problems with energy.

Instead, build some properly run nuclear power plants and be done with it. It is only due to some unfortunate situations (Chernobyl poorly built and run, Fukushima survived a disaster about 10x bigger than what it was designed for), that nuclear is not liked. Theres a phenomenal lack of public knowledge and far too much hate for them.

Increase, once again, the amount of money into fusion power research and then we can use the seawater as power. All energy problems solved. It might take 50 - 75 years, but it'll be worth it.

The_Thing

They should build a wind-farm directly opposite Leinster house to catch all the hot air that emanates from therein.

SeanW

yawnstretch wrote: »

Ironic that laws intended to protect us are being used to destroy our only hope for survival you mean.

So, windmills are "our only hope for survival?"

If that's the case, then we're beyond screwed, because I seem to recall things got kinda cold here in Ireland last December, and while I and a lot of other people had to throw on everything electric in order to stay alive, demand peaked at around 6GWs while wind turbine output was in the 10-20MW range as the -17c conditions were accompanied by a dead, overcast calm. Without non-Green power, many of us would have died, especially older people.

But perhaps that's not an issue on whatever planet you're living on? And here I was thinking that a Mirror universe was only in science-fiction!

A few questions about those windmills. How much would they have needed in subsidies? How reliable would they have been been? How many fossil fuel fired power stations could have been closed as a result their construction? How well would they have helped us deal with the next little visit from Jack Frost's Siberian granddaddy?

(I already know the answers to the above questions but I wonder if yawnstretch would like to take a bash at them).

MOSSAD

Wind energy is not the sole answer to our energy needs, but it can make a substantial contribution.
The big worry is that certain planners appear not to be objective about wind energy or at best utterly incompetent.
Case in point a Hibernian Wind Power project in west Clare-they got planning permission but for over 5 years could not get a grid connection, and they had to reapply to the local authority. Hibernian reduced the number of turbines, but , when some objector appealed to an Bord Pleanala, the inspector recommended refusal based on very questionable grounds. First as the site was blanket bog, he talked about bog slides like in Derrybrien. However this particular site has negligible slope, max peat depths of 1.8m(it's mostly cutaway), so no possibility of a bog slide/burst. Secondly, he spoke disapprovingly of an "oil spill" in a quarry on the site, referring to the fact that the quarry would be used to construct the roads. I looked for the "oil spill"-it was nothing but a small puddle of hydraulic fluid from a burst hose on a hymac-this happens on excavators frequently, and the amount of the spill was no more than perhaps a gallon at most. The area in question is predominantly used to cut turf, but was also used for flytipping until locals patrolled, sorted through litter, reported flytippers and chased these people away. Fortunately B Pleanala rejected the inspectors recommendation and sanctioned the windfarm.
Also, the land is owned by 2 families but they have no income from it as it is all in turbary rights. By leasing plots to Hibernian, they will have an income for 20 years and can live in and on their land. There has to be compromise here-people have to live, and when the wind blows this site will be one of the most productive sites in Ireland. Let's hope they get the interconnector up and running so power can be exported, and all of us gain. And for those that don't like to look at them...surely you can look somewhere else?
And if you're cold in the winter, how about going to the local farmer who sells firewood from his plantation? It's renewable, home grown, and you are supporting the local economy. Finally, if you really don't want to see wind turbines on someone's land, offer to buy the land, and you bear the cost of keeping it turbine free.

professore

Some people like to object to anything and everything because it makes them feel important.

We should be doing everything we can to construct as many windfarms as possible here, and stick an interconnector to the UK. That way we can sell excess wind into the UK and trade it for nuclear generated when there's no wind here - rare enough that that is. We should also research new high tech nuclear reactors.

There is an energy crisis just around the corner, just as glaringly obvious as the property bubble was. We have a rich proven energy resource here, we just have to use our brains to tap into it. Unless you want to be in the dark and starving. And by the way with an energy crisis, tourist numbers will fall off a cliff.

thebman

professore wrote: »

There is an energy crisis just around the corner, just as glaringly obvious as the property bubble was. We have a rich proven energy resource here, we just have to use our brains to tap into it. Unless you want to be in the dark and starving. And by the way with an energy crisis, tourist numbers will fall off a cliff.

Worse than that and more obvious energy prices will skyrocket killing the economy completely.

You basically can't have an economy without competitive energy. We have high prices now and compensate with other tax breaks etc... so we really can't afford to be unprepared for an energy crisis.

ei.sdraob

SeanW wrote: »

Without non-Green power, many of us would have died, especially older people.

Less people == less carbon

:eek:

professore wrote: »

Some people like to object to anything and everything because it makes them feel important.

We should be doing everything we can to construct as many windfarms as possible here, and stick an interconnector to the UK. That way we can sell excess wind into the UK and trade it for nuclear generated when there's no wind here - rare enough that that is. We should also research new high tech nuclear reactors.

There is an energy crisis just around the corner, just as glaringly obvious as the property bubble was. We have a rich proven energy resource here, we just have to use our brains to tap into it. Unless you want to be in the dark and starving. And by the way with an energy crisis, tourist numbers will fall off a cliff.

The wind generation data is there for all to see and admire how unreliable it is

At half a billion an inter connector (more expensive than UK<>NL) one we would need to build about 12 (I wonder what interest would be on 6 billion loan to Irish state to handover to state owned eirgrid) of them in order to be able to survive conditions like last winter, and become completely reliant on UK energy sector, so much for "independence"

thebman wrote: »

Worse than that and more obvious energy prices will skyrocket killing the economy completely.

You basically can't have an economy without competitive energy. We have high prices now and compensate with other tax breaks etc... so we really can't afford to be unprepared for an energy crisis.

Interesting that oil is back down under 80$, i clearly remember threads here similar to ones in 2008 claiming end of oil and costs above 200$
Interesting how petrol stations have not brought prices down

whatstherush

ei.sdraob wrote: »

At half a billion an inter connector (more expensive than UK<>NL) one we would need to build about 12 (I wonder what interest would be on 6 billion loan to Irish state to handover to state owned eirgrid) of them in order to be able to survive conditions like last winter, and become completely reliant on UK energy sector, so much for "independence"

It's not all wind production and rely on the interconnectors for the rest. Its about diversifying our current supply. Also your point about subsidizing jobs in China is a non issue. Do you think they will be knocking up steam turbines for your nuclear and gas fired plants down the local iron works.

ei.sdraob

whatstherush wrote: »

It's not all wind production and rely on the interconnectors for the rest.

If not wind then what else? Coal, turf, oil and gas...
Looking out the window solar photo-voltaic has little hope, tidal and offshore wind are very very expensive.
Look at last winter if we relied on wind for even half of our generation the country would have ground to a halt and people would have froze.

whatstherush wrote: »

Also your point about subsidizing jobs in China is a non issue. Do you think they will be knocking up steam turbines for your nuclear and gas fired plants down the local iron works.

One large 300MW turbine requires much less resources than thousands of smaller ones, a 3MW turbine (most likely with a made in China sticker on side) needs 2 tons of neodymium all mined in China at great harm to the environment and its people, the same 3MW turbine would also produce only 20% of 3MW at any time as seen from eirgrids stats

The environmentalists are quick to tell us that one train requires less resources than hundred of cars to make and run, yet its funny how the same concept of centralised scale is forgotten when it comes to power generation.

whatstherush

ei.sdraob wrote: »

If not wind then what else? Coal, turf, oil and gas...

Yes that's generally the meaning of the word diversification.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

One large 300MW turbine requires much less resources than thousands of smaller ones, a 3MW turbine (most likely with a made in China sticker on side) needs 2 tons of neodymium all mined in China at great harm to the environment and its people, the same 3MW turbine would also produce only 20% of 3MW at any time as seen from eirgrids stats

Mining uranium or drilling for gas for the 30 year lifespan of the plants will have no environmental side effects I suppose.

pljudge321

whatstherush wrote: »

Yes that's generally the meaning of the word diversification.


Mining uranium or drilling for gas for the 30 year lifespan of the plants will have no environmental side effects I suppose.

Ignoring the manufacturing effect you can't pretend that wind has no environmental effects. In order to incorporate it into the grid we need to match the winds output with an equivalent level of spinning reserve to balance out the variability of the wind. This means that the thermal units have to be run at less than rated load, decreasing their thermal efficiency and increasing their CO2 and NOx outputs. Also the constant ramping up and down of output to balance the wind has a twofold effect. It increases the amount of wear on the machines decreasing their operational lifetime and increasing O&M costs and it increases the amount of hot or cold starts which take up a lot of power.

That said wind does make sense in Ireland, it's just not the magical resource some would have you believe.

Icepick

Suryavarman wrote: »

They are monstrosities that destroy the landscape.

+

vs

SeanW

You'll get no arguments from me about coal - I oppose the continued use of the stuff, completely and unreservedly.

But if you want pictures how about this:
Wind:


Versus Nuclear (Cattenom, France);

pljudge321

Icepick wrote: »

SeanW wrote: »

Both of these look fake.

murphaph

ei.sdraob wrote: »

What about all the damage to tourism by carpeting Connemara in giant windmills?

Same as the damage to tourism by carpeting Ireland in ill-fitting one-off houses (the vast majority of which have been either picked from a generic book of plans) tbh. I think we've already buggered up our landscapes beyond repair.