All these talk of cuts but .....

goldenhoarde

Have we really done all we can (the government that is) to save money in the public sector?

Have we
a) gotten the best value for all public tenders contracts
b) are all public sector works being gainfully employed
c) centralised procuremt for all the Public Sector

Case in point is that every dept most likely buys its stationary/toliet paper by office whereas if there was a centralised procurement agency buy said itesm for all the Public sector i would expect a 20% saving at least?

All options for saving and effiencey should be investigated and acted on and no NO MORE REPORTS!!!!


This is not a swipe at the public sector as belive it or not we as a country need them!

Jaysoose

The goverment is not interested in making savings in the public sector all they are interested in is faffing around making grandeous statements like "we have turned a corner" all in the while waiting for france and germany to dictate the next raft of stealth taxes.

Tora Bora

goldenhoarde wrote: »

Have we really done all we can (the government that is) to save money in the public sector?

Have we
a) gotten the best value for all public tenders contracts
b) are all public sector works being gainfully employed
c) centralised procuremt for all the Public Sector

Case in point is that every dept most likely buys its stationary/toliet paper by office whereas if there was a centralised procurement agency buy said itesm for all the Public sector i would expect a 20% saving at least?

All options for saving and effiencey should be investigated and acted on and no NO MORE REPORTS!!!!


This is not a swipe at the public sector as belive it or not we as a country need them!

Cut to the chase here. All PS employees, should bring their own toliet paper to work.

Tora Bora

Tora Bora wrote: »

Cut to the chase here. All PS employees, should bring their own toliet paper to work.

Or, just use the vast array of 'reports' that are never acted upon.

goldenhoarde

the auld mention iof TP always catches the eye!

Daidy2011

The Government (and I am in no way political) are attempting to centralise purchasing, including the tendering process, through the OPW, the problem the OPW are having is getting each individual public body (HSE etc.....) to buy-in to the process and accept the decision(s) of the OPW.

Sounds crazy I know given our current plight but there are hundreds of procurement people in the public service trying the justify their existence.

femur61

I was on holiday with a group of PS to say they don't live in the real world is an understatement. They can't do simple math in that for every €3 we pay in taxes €5 is spent hence the 20bn we have to borrow. Some of the highest paid in Europe and least hours worked http://www.iiea.com/blogosphere/public-sector-pay-at-a-glance

galway2007

femur61 wrote: »

I was on holiday with a group of PS to say they don't live in the real world is an understatement. They can't do simple math in that for every €3 we pay in taxes €5 is spent hence the 20bn we have to borrow. Some of the highest paid in Europe and least hours worked http://www.iiea.com/blogosphere/public-sector-pay-at-a-glance

So bashing your friend's is your pastime or did you say it to there face????
Any maybe what they spend keeps you in a job
God I hope the holiday was in Ireland or else they will go mad here

BaronVon

Daidy2011 wrote: »

The Government (and I am in no way political) are attempting to centralise purchasing, including the tendering process, through the OPW, the problem the OPW are having is getting each individual public body (HSE etc.....) to buy-in to the process and accept the decision(s) of the OPW.

Sounds crazy I know given our current plight but there are hundreds of procurement people in the public service trying the justify their existence.

In my experience, one of the main problems in the PS is the OPW. utterly shambolic....

Spokes of Glory

Having worked in procurement management myself for a multinational, I've never been able to understand how this isn't a priority for government. Without any doubt significant savings could be made by consolidating purchasing of all the hospitals, schools, county councils etc.....its not technically or commercially that difficult, but it'll be a cold day in hell before the administrators of those departments give up their empires.

RichardAnd

femur61 wrote: »

I was on holiday with a group of PS to say they don't live in the real world is an understatement. They can't do simple math in that for every €3 we pay in taxes €5 is spent hence the 20bn we have to borrow. Some of the highest paid in Europe and least hours worked http://www.iiea.com/blogosphere/public-sector-pay-at-a-glance

This is boads.ie anecdotal nonsense. "I heard a fella down the pub...", "me neighbour says this...", "a guy on the bus was saying...". This list goes on.

Even if you didn't make that up, you're implying that 300'000 people share the same mentality which is not only insane, it's insulting.

goldenhoarde

Spokes of Glory wrote: »

Having worked in procurement management myself for a multinational, I've never been able to understand how this isn't a priority for government. Without any doubt significant savings could be made by consolidating purchasing of all the hospitals, schools, county councils etc.....its not technically or commercially that difficult, but it'll be a cold day in hell before the administrators of those departments give up their empires.

:eek: and there you hit the nail on the head. We can free up all these people to do other front line stuff making the service better and cheaper but .... thats not the irish way. Protect what you have at all costs and to hell with anything else!

Pharaoh1

Guy on Joe Duffy today making the point that he had to be means tested for JA with all the forms and paperwork this entails. When the process is complete he had to start the whole thing again for the HSE to get his medical card.
Its a very obvious one and I'm sure has been repeated thousands of times in the last few years. Surely whatever database (I'm assuming there is a database) the Dept of Soc. Protection puts in all this info could be easily modified to flag up whether an individual or a family would be entitled to a medical card or the GP visit card and it is issued or not.
To be fair I heard Richard Bruton float the idea of a one stop social welfare shop before the election but nothing since then.

Anyone care to speculate as to why such a wasteful system continues.

Is it in the PS there is really no carrot or stick present to eliminate such practice?
Are the management so completely incompetent that they can't or won't change?
Are the combined vested interests that want to keep a load of staff unnecessarily shuffling paper so powerful that the status quo is maintained?
Is it a combination of the above?

To be fair in sections such as revenue and Dept of Agriculture have made major advances that incorporate streamlining and web technology.

MagicSean

The problem is that the people in the PS who want changes have no power to make changes. The people who do have the power to bring about change don't give a **** about anything but their take home pay.

galway2007

goldenhoarde wrote: »

:eek: and there you hit the nail on the head. We can free up all these people to do other front line stuff making the service better and cheaper but .... thats not the irish way. Protect what you have at all costs and to hell with anything else!

Correct just like the scum off the private sector employers who have spend every day of the last 10 years wondering how can I screw and rip off the Irish people so I can increase my PROFIT
And even today they are doing it my increasing prices and closing down a business and opening it up in another name the next day debt FREE
scum or what??????

Gumbo

Pharaoh1 wrote: »

To be fair in sections such as revenue and Dept of Agriculture have made major advances that incorporate streamlining and web technology.

Dont forget County Councils, ePlanning was introduced a few years ago whereby planning applications can be lodged and paid online, and observations, objections etc can all now be made and paid for online.

reduces the paper cost to the applicant and obviously the time involved in printing and travelling to the council offices.

Gumbo

galway2007 wrote: »

Correct just like the scum off the private sector employers who have spend every day of the last 10 years wondering how can I screw and rip off the Irish people so I can increase my PROFIT
And even today they are doing it my increasing prices and closing down a business and opening it up in another name the next day debt FREE
scum or what??????

heres just one example

Long story short.

Fan belt snapped in car. Went to nearest garage I could find to see could I get it replaced. C&K Motors, Rathgar, Dublin 6 was the first garage I came across. Was quoted a price of €150. €50 for the fanbelt alone and €100 for the labour.

Got directions to the nearest Motor Factors - Rathgar Motor Factors, bought the fan belt for €10. Asked them where best to get it fixed, they directed me up Harrisons Row where I got it fitted for €25 by Lynch Motors who couldn't have been any more helpful.

Whole job cost me €35 whereas the first crowd were looking for €150.

Prime example of Rip off Ireland if you ask me

Lumbo

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

The problem is that the people in the PS who want changes have no power to make changes. The people who do have the power to bring about change don't give a **** about anything but their take home pay.

WOW. And they say it's the people in the Public Sector who don't live in the real world.

MagicSean

Lumbo wrote: »

WOW. And they say it's the people in the Public Sector who don't live in the real world.

I am in the public sector.

nesf

Pharaoh1 wrote: »

To be fair I heard Richard Bruton float the idea of a one stop social welfare shop before the election but nothing since then.

The problem is if you combine these jobs into a single job, i.e. a one stop shop, which would be a good idea, you now don't have work for all the people who were repeating the effort in other areas of the PS. You'd need to fire these people as you now don't need them but the unions won't leave that happen.

Lumbo

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

I am in the public sector.

Well then here's a story from todays Indo that proves you wrong.

Plan to pay firefighters 'per minute' thrown out
By Anne-Marie Walsh Industry Correspondent
Thursday August 18 2011

A NEW attempt to standardise the work practices of public sector workers has failed.
A bid by local government management to get the country's more than 2,000 on-call firefighters to work on a "pay per minute" basis has been rejected.
The Labour Court has thrown out the proposal that they are paid for the exact amount of time they work -- down to the minute.
It was tabled by management in an effort to introduce a uniform system of calculating part-time firefighters' pay across the local authorities.
The plan is among a host of proposals to standardise work practices in the state sector to bring in savings and ensure better public services.
Rates paid to staff at six of the local authorities are calculated to the nearest minute, but they are calculated to the nearest 15 minutes at 10 authorities, to the nearest half-hour at four authorities and to the nearest hour at another four authorities.
- Anne-Marie Walsh Industry Correspondent
Irish Independent

sarumite

kceire wrote: »

heres just one example

Don't Feed the troll.

MagicSean

Lumbo wrote: »

Well then here's a story from todays Indo that proves you wrong.

That doesn't prove me wrong. That's just another way of cutting pay. Hardly major reform.

Jaysoose

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

That doesn't prove me wrong. That's just another way of cutting pay. Hardly major reform.

Yep that story says more about the "management" than anything else what a ridiculous proposal in the first place for essential staff. Its these "managers" that should be targetted and thrown out on their ear as they oversee this mismagement yet claim the biggest wages.

At the end of the day people can clammer for change all they want but when we still have the same people making decisions on our behalf that have been in place for the last decade nothing is going to change.

Its sad but its true and it aint changing anytime soon.

Lumbo

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

That doesn't prove me wrong. That's just another way of cutting pay. Hardly major reform.

Well then I suggest you read some LRC reports which show how Management have attempted to make changes only to be twarted by staff and unions.

I'm not management btw. Just sick of that old bull**** being thrown out.

Jaysoose

Lumbo wrote: »

Well then I suggest you read some LRC reports which show how Management have attempted to make changes only to be twarted by staff and unions.

I'm not management btw. Just sick of that old bull**** being thrown out.

So what you are saying is the management of the public service are not capable of controlling the work their staff do?

Surely they could terminate the employment of people that refuse to do their duties.

listermint

Jaysoose wrote: »

So what you are saying is the management of the public service are not capable of controlling the work their staff do?

Surely they could terminate the employment of people that refuse to do their duties.

They cant, hands are tied. Hands are tied.



And so it will continue in ireland until we hit the wall.

Lumbo

Jaysoose wrote: »

So what you are saying is the management of the public service are not capable of controlling the work their staff do?

Surely they could terminate the employment of people that refuse to do their duties.

So what you are saying is the management of the public service are not capable of controlling the work their staff do?

No.

Surely they could terminate the employment of people that refuse to do their duties.

I'd have no problem with that. My organisation has fired 6 people in the last 12 year.

newmug

nesf wrote: »

The problem is if you combine these jobs into a single job, i.e. a one stop shop, which would be a good idea, you now don't have work for all the people who were repeating the effort in other areas of the PS. You'd need to fire these people as you now don't need them but the unions won't leave that happen.

No, you free up people to do more work! For example, we havent enough nurses, so cut out the HSE red-tape and free up those people to help out in the front line! No need to fire anyone, no additions to the dole queue, more help at the frontline, less red tape, and theoretically happy unions! Simples!

But of course that would mean some managers would have to "lower" themselves to dispensing medications. So unfortunately it wont happen.

nesf

newmug wrote: »

No, you free up people to do more work! For example, we havent enough nurses, so cut out the HSE red-tape and free up those people to help out in the front line! No need to fire anyone, no additions to the dole queue, more help at the frontline, less red tape, and theoretically happy unions! Simples!

But of course that would mean some managers would have to "lower" themselves to dispensing medications. So unfortunately it wont happen.

You can't turn a paper pusher into a nurse or Garda without years of training. There are vanishingly few front line jobs that are office work.

Jaysoose

Lumbo wrote: »

So what you are saying is the management of the public service are not capable of controlling the work their staff do?

No.

Well then why are the unions and staff dictating the work they will and wont do to the management? In my eyes thats a failure of management and makes them imcapable.

Surely they could terminate the employment of people that refuse to do their duties.

I'd have no problem with that. My organisation has fired 6 people in the last 12 year.

What size is your organisation and can you clarify if the staff fired were full time or contract staff that did not get renewed. there is a massive difference.

l

newmug

nesf wrote: »

You can't turn a paper pusher into a nurse or Garda without years of training. There are vanishingly few front line jobs that are office work.

SO TRAIN THEM FFS!!! Typical public sector attitude:mad:

nesf

newmug wrote: »

SO TRAIN THEM FFS!!! Typical public sector attitude:mad:

Eh, what? Fire them and hire trained people is what I'm saying.

BluntGuy

newmug wrote: »

SO TRAIN THEM FFS!!! Typical public sector attitude:mad:

This is a rather silly suggestion.

Why should we wait 3-4 years for these people to be trained into an entirely different job (which they may be completely unsuited for) when there's people qualifying now, perfectly able and willing to work, who can't get a position? Is that not unfair on new graduates?

newmug

nesf wrote: »

Eh, what? Fire them and hire trained people is what I'm saying.

Well in fairness, you never mentioned the "hire already trained people" bit.

BluntGuy wrote: »

This is a rather silly suggestion.

Why should we wait 3-4 years for these people to be trained into an entirely different job (which they may be completely unsuited for) when there's people qualifying now, perfectly able and willing to work, who can't get a position? Is that not unfair on new graduates?

I was responding to Nesf's post about about firing people, post 20. Please keep up before you call people silly.

nesf

I would have taken it as self explanatory that if one wanted to hire a nurse or Garda or whatever you'd hire qualified people not retrain office workers.

newmug

nesf wrote: »

I would have taken it as self explanatory that if one wanted to hire a nurse or Garda or whatever you'd hire qualified people not retrain office workers.

Well entry level for a Guard is a leaving cert, so why would you hire in already trained police from elsewhere? Just streamline the red tape, and transfer the surplus "pen pushing" guards, who are already trained cops, to the frontline. Give them whatever additional training they might need (@Bluntguy, it wont be 4 years:rolleyes:) and let them at it!

Same for nurses. I have personal experience of this one! Some nurses work their way up their career ladder, going from care assistant to full nurse, to unit supervisor etc. and fair play to them, but when they get to the wasteful etchelons of "management", they might aswell be retired! There are actually people employed by the state, just to tell other people to do their jobs! Its insane! And these people cling to those jobs because they know they're so cushy! THESE are the unnescessary, pen pushing jobs that should be culled, and the excess of manpower routed back into frontline services, where its desperately needed. No training nescessary in that example!

Obviously if specialist skills are required for whatever new role is created by combining / culling old beaurocratic positions, THEN you'd hire in suitably qualified people, and redeploy your excess manpower. You could do it through an early retirement scheme if retraining wasnt a suitable solution. But in all fairness, how many specialist positions are there in the offices of our public services? Not many! Look at how much waste is there in our backward, beaurocratic public service systems! And compare that to the amount of frontline services that are desperately in need of more hands-on help! Methinks a re-jig of things is in order!

mikemac

Why are departments so different?

The Revenue are very efficient and their online ROS system is great. They are always helpful and straight forward to deal with. The one time I had an issue the executive officer stepped in, took control and gave me all his details and direct phoneline until it was sorted. Bualadh bos to the Revenue

The winner of the most inefficient goes to the Department of Agriculture. They have no online system and you have to fill out forms with stock numbers with a biro, post them in and some poor soul loses their sanity as they type thousands of stock numbers all day.
I even offered to send them an excel file but no, use the official form sir. It's so inefficient I suspect they do it to keep busy and their jobs.
Cheques go missing, applications get messed up and the whole department should be shut down and rebuilt from new. I give them credit for the mapping system though

Department of Social Protection are not great either. With simple claims it's straightforward but throw them something unusual like self employed and "computer says no" and the process gets bogged down

We have superb departments and terrible ones and I don't see it changing

nesf

Yeah the Revenue are excellent in fairness.

MagicSean

mikemac wrote: »

Why are departments so different?

The Revenue are very efficient and their online ROS system is great. They are always helpful and straight forward to deal with. The one time I had an issue the executive officer stepped in, took control and gave me all his details and direct phoneline until it was sorted. Bualadh bos to the Revenue

The winner of the most inefficient goes to the Department of Agriculture. They have no online system and you have to fill out forms with stock numbers with a biro, post them in and some poor soul loses their sanity as they type thousands of stock numbers all day.
I even offered to send them an excel file but no, use the official form sir. It's so inefficient I suspect they do it to keep busy and their jobs.
Cheques go missing, applications get messed up and the whole department should be shut down and rebuilt from new. I give them credit for the mapping system though

Department of Social Protection are not great either. With simple claims it's straightforward but throw them something unusual like self employed and "computer says no" and the process gets bogged down

We have superb departments and terrible ones and I don't see it changing

I've always been of the opinion that we should have a department of information and technology who would have responsability for providing other departments with the likes of online systems and databases as well as sourcing and tendering for new technologies for use in departments. We have so many computer graduates in this country it would not be hard to staff it for low costs and other costs would be minimal. All a nerd really needs is a computer and a snack machine and they'll work away happily.

femur61

galway2007 wrote: »

So bashing your friend's is your pastime or did you say it to there face????
Any maybe what they spend keeps you in a job
God I hope the holiday was in Ireland or else they will go mad here

I have no problem with telling them to their face how my taxes pays thier inflated wages. The nuses who worked in the UK agreed with me. The country will not get back on track until we sort out the public finances. Why are doctors in the HSE getting €200 and in the UK £70, I don't know if they do any private work in the UK but they certainly do here.

Jaysoose

BluntGuy wrote: »

This is a rather silly suggestion.

Why should we wait 3-4 years for these people to be trained into an entirely different job (which they may be completely unsuited for) when there's people qualifying now, perfectly able and willing to work, who can't get a position? Is that not unfair on new graduates?

Why not start training some of them now so they could be part of the trunout of new guards etc in 3 years, this would mean that there would still be new people coming into the force and the number of pen pushers that are "underallocated" comes down. Its fairly simple to be honest but then it appears that the management of the public service are happy to let the same things happen time and again.

This word Unfair is thrown around a lot, how is it "unfair on new graduates" people are not entitled to a living.


Anyway its a pointless discussion as nothing will change and the public service unions are running the show. Croke park agreement anyone?

Jaysoose

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

I've always been of the opinion that we should have a department of information and technology who would have responsability for providing other departments with the likes of online systems and databases as well as sourcing and tendering for new technologies for use in departments. We have so many computer graduates in this country it would not be hard to staff it for low costs and other costs would be minimal. All a nerd really needs is a computer and a snack machine and they'll work away happily.

We know this will never be the case as there is no interconnection between departments and no will to change this. The simple fact is the people currently performing these duties within the various departments wouldnt allow this to happen and the unions would make sure as hell it didnt regardless of the benefit to the organisation.

Its sad to read about the public service and the people talk about the "changes" continually from a personal level when the organisation as a whole is broken.

ParkRunner

Jaysoose wrote: »

We know this will never be the case as there is no interconnection between departments and no will to change this. The simple fact is the people currently performing these duties within the various departments wouldnt allow this to happen and the unions would make sure as hell it didnt regardless of the benefit to the organisation.

Its sad to read about the public service and the people talk about the "changes" continually from a personal level when the organisation as a whole is broken.

There is no interconnection between departments and people currently performing those duties you mention within the various departments wouldn't allow interconnection?

Have you any evidence of this? As I have evidence to the contrary, at 6.3.5

mikemac

o Initiatives by Government Departments to explore and develop shared service solutions in the ICT area (e.g. Department of Agriculture, Food and Marine, the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation; the Department of Justice and Equality, the Department of Social Protection and the Revenue Commissioners).
27

o The development of a HR Shared Service for the Civil Service.

I like all these
One expert group to work on new and existing systems instead of a few in each department. If Revenue have ROS, give Social Protection a better system too.
Maybe Dept of Agriculture can copy the basis of ROS so farmers and vets can submit stock numbers and test results.
Might avoid another PPARS.
Or the group that archived the census and made them open to the public and can be put to work on new projects and train other departments

Shared HR is good too, somebody tell the HSE with over two thousand HR staff and a senior manager estimated they only need seven hundred.
If savings are to be made with cutting back office staff here is a good place to start

Inverse to the power of one!

mikemac wrote: »

I like all these
One expert group to work on new and existing systems instead of a few in each department. If Revenue have ROS, give Social Protection a better system too.
Maybe Dept of Agriculture can copy the basis of ROS so farmers and vets can submit stock numbers and test results.
Might avoid another PPARS.
Or the group that archived the census and made them open to the public and can be put to work on new projects and train other departments

Shared HR is good too, somebody tell the HSE with over two thousand HR staff and a senior manager estimated they only need seven hundred.
If savings are to be made with cutting back office staff here is a good place to start

There was e-gov initiative a few years ago called reach, despite saving the state about 60M Eur a year by means of it's deaths publication system(meaning no benefit payed out after) it has given the hactchet as revenue didn't want to play ball in easy access to PAYE online insisting on their PIN adding complication to ease of use after having been verified by reach.

It got the axe three years ago.....so now we're back to the ad-hoc patchwork approach :rolleyes:

Add to that, it was the leading e-gov initiative in Europe at the time. We were leading the way for once.

regi

kceire wrote: »

heres just one example

Long story short.

Fan belt snapped in car. Went to nearest garage I could find to see could I get it replaced. C&K Motors, Rathgar, Dublin 6 was the first garage I came across. Was quoted a price of €150. €50 for the fanbelt alone and €100 for the labour.

Got directions to the nearest Motor Factors - Rathgar Motor Factors, bought the fan belt for €10. Asked them where best to get it fixed, they directed me up Harrisons Row where I got it fitted for €25 by Lynch Motors who couldn't have been any more helpful.

Whole job cost me €35 whereas the first crowd were looking for €150.

Prime example of Rip off Ireland if you ask me

Nice! So you shopped around, found a better provider nearby and didn't get 'ripped off'? The bad guy loses business, might eventually shut down and the good guy gets the business and will hopefully prosper.

Remind me again how I do that with the public sector?

Jaysoose

EF wrote: »

There is no interconnection between departments and people currently performing those duties you mention within the various departments wouldn't allow interconnection?

Have you any evidence of this? As I have evidence to the contrary, at 6.3.5

What you have there is yet another report put together by public servants outling certain objectives they would like to develop and achieve.

You do not however have evidence that departments are interconnected and that the staff and unions are fully onboard with this process.

Gumbo

regi wrote: »

Nice! So you shopped around, found a better provider nearby and didn't get 'ripped off'? The bad guy loses business, might eventually shut down and the good guy gets the business and will hopefully prosper.

Remind me again how I do that with the public sector?

dont misquote my post and dont shoot the messenger :rolleyes:
I was quoting that from the motors section and the link was quite obviously in the original post that you ommited

Scofflaw

goldenhoarde wrote: »

Have we really done all we can (the government that is) to save money in the public sector?

Have we
a) gotten the best value for all public tenders contracts
b) are all public sector works being gainfully employed
c) centralised procuremt for all the Public Sector

Case in point is that every dept most likely buys its stationary/toliet paper by office whereas if there was a centralised procurement agency buy said itesm for all the Public sector i would expect a 20% saving at least?

All options for saving and effiencey should be investigated and acted on and no NO MORE REPORTS!!!!


This is not a swipe at the public sector as belive it or not we as a country need them!

As far as I know, the OPW does most government procurement centrally through the National Procurement Service. However, I'm not sure that it's obligatory for all arms of the government to go via the OPW.

cordially,
Scofflaw

ParkRunner

Jaysoose wrote: »

What you have there is yet another report put together by public servants outling certain objectives they would like to develop and achieve.

You do not however have evidence that departments are interconnected and that the staff and unions are fully onboard with this process.

Some have been achieved and some are in the process of being achieved. The agreement, as endorsed by public sector unions and their members, is to last until 2014 and if savings are not made, as verified by the independent implentation body, there will be further paycuts.

I agree there needs to be even more interconnection between Departments and to make accessing public services more user friendly but progress is being made.

A lot of situations the public service has to deal with is complicated though and a single structure to suit every Department would be impossible. I would like to see too though more information sharing and shared services between linked Departments and I don't think you would find opposition from the vast majority of public servants to achieving this.