haka question

PTH2009

if a player playing against New Zealand turned his back to the haka would he be right in doing so or would that be highly disrepecful ??.

Prolby whoever the player is will prob get a massive hit when he gets the ball.

Has anything like this ever happend always wondered ??

roycon

the haka isnt sacred to irish people and therefore it doesnt matter. it would be equally disrespectful if the kiwis decided to turn their back while paul o'connell was dancing to the walls of limerick. during the last world cup in one of the games new zealand were forced to perform the haka in the changing rooms instead of out on the pitch just because the french were hosting it and werent prepared to take any shiit. ive always though that when facing the haka the other team should go and do a few handling drills. the main reason theyve kept the haka for so long is because its a crowd spectacle. it is a ceremonial dance and not designed to be done "at" someone. therefore it would not be disrespectful. the all black press would probably be very annoyed however. you may recall the outburst from new zealand when england wore a black jersey.

lest we forget new zealand actually invented the colour black and nobody else is allowed to wear it without their permission

Hagz

I enjoy the haka, I think any controversy around it stems from the fact that it is performed by a such a successful side. Nobody gives a hoot about Tonga's war dance, because they aren't annihilating every side they meet.

Morf

Hagz wrote: »

Nobody gives a hoot about Tonga's war dance, because they aren't annihilating every side they meet.

Nobody gives a hoot about Tonga or Fiji or Samoa's similar efforts because they don't appear to get special treatment from the IRB regarding not respecting it.

The AB's are a big money-maker for NZRU, the IRB and Adidas. Their status is being elevated in the same way Beckham's was in football. Unlike Beckham, the AB's deserve their reverence far more as they deliver the goods.

It gets special treatment because it is a crowd pleaser, it attracts new fans to rugby and the AB's are the biggest brand in rugby.

ballsymchugh

morf has it right. it's all about marketing. it's changed, only a little bit mind, for the modern age too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emJyEa4z2Ec

astonaidan

I'm nearly certain it was Wales who wouldnt let them do it and they got a right thrasing because of it, I think think the Haka is brilliant though and rugby would lose if it was stopped, My fav moment in rugby was the war dance of tonga against New Zealand, Plus now that Ali Williams is back its got that much cooler, Didnt a certain BOD throw some grass in the air on advice from Maori chiefs that got him in trouble

theboss80

Ireland can certainly show how you can respond

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fg4FyhZ-Kg

phog

I like the Haka and I think most players are big enough to respect the tradition and then get on with the game.

Junior

phog wrote: »

I like the Haka and I think most players are big enough to respect the tradition and then get on with the game.

Bar the NZ Press, what I don't get it is if it's such a huge tradition out there, why don't their cricketers, soccer team, etc do it before every event ?

andrewdcs

Junior wrote: »

Bar the NZ Press, what I don't get it is if it's such a huge tradition out there, why don't their cricketers, soccer team, etc do it before every event ?

Nigh on all Maori play rugby, and all tribes have their own war / greeting dances for different times, places events etc. They copyrighted the Haka(tm) (r) for the same reason Munster and Leinster copywright their crests, to protect them from dodgy businesses peddling on their good name they've built up.
I think it's fantastic, seeing it on the Lions / all the build up with the bull roarers, ghost whispers etc. real electricity hairs on the back of the neck stuff, never forget it. Sure we did get thrummelled, but Rico Gear bought me a drink, so all was forgiven. Lovely chap, Irish wife, so watch out in 15 years time for our own Maori wing!

prospect

Turning your back on the Haka, (according to its traditional meaning), is a sign of cowardice.

Staring them down is considered the strongest response, see here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fYIUdVNFgU

JustinDee

You can face it or not face it. Makes no difference.
As for 'cowardice', I wouldn't call Campese's try in 1991 Semi-Final cowardly. More a knife through butter.

theboss80

I thought is was "throwing down a challenge to the opposition" and the whole BOD throwing a clump of grass in the air was an acceptance of the challenge and was seen as very respectful at the time iirc

ArmaniJeanss

Pointing at them whilst laughing would be the best response.

Ste_D

David Campese famously used to go down to the other end of the pitch and kick a ball about on his own while NZ performed the haka. Maori's will tell you its disrespectful/unlucky but I suppose its up to the individual.

Willie Anderson led the Irish team forward as they faced it because as he put it, he wanted the first big cheer of the day to be for Ireland, not their guests. I think this got taken too far a few years later when some members of an England team (Richard Cockerill) very aggressively approached the haka and stood face to face, staring down some of the ABs. This was seen as too far and now both teams have to go back to their own 10 meter line.

The incident mentioned above - when the Welsh made them perform it before they came out on the pitch - incensed the crowd. When they were told there wouldnt be time for it they were furious. Its part of the whole spectacle of the All Blacks.

JustinDee

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Pointing at them whilst laughing would be the best response.

I've faced Hakas before both in rugby league and rugby union.
You just find your opponent and eyeball him.
Then once the panto is over, get on with the game.

Honestly, there is far too much kerfuffle placed around the Haka and I can guess that with the huge pressure beginning really surmount on the Kiwis, they'll be extra prissy on it this RWC.

Haka? Whatever...

daveharnett

PTH2009 wrote: »

Has anything like this ever happend always wondered ??

Lots of teams in the past have chosen to ignore the haka and carry on with their warmups. It's not allowed any more however.

As per IRB directive, when your opponent is dancing you can't really do anything but stand quietly on your 10 (and possibly wave adidas flags).

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68054105

I think pretty much any other team could do the rugby world a favor and kill this reverential bull with a single rendition of their traditional dance.

PhatPiggins

JustinDee wrote: »

You can face it or not face it. Makes no difference.
As for 'cowardice', I wouldn't call Campese's try in 1991 Semi-Final cowardly. More a knife through butter.

Was there not some IRB directive recently that teams had to face it, motionless and silent? I'm sure the Oz womens team got fined for not doing it.

It's all a bit precious to me, at the end of the day its a bunch of white guys pretending they're tribal warriors. Leave them at it by all means but I reserve the right not to give a toss about it.

keano_afc

ballsymchugh wrote: »

morf has it right. it's all about marketing. it's changed, only a little bit mind, for the modern age too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emJyEa4z2Ec

Thats one of the funnies things I've ever seen. Looks like recreational time at an old folks home.

gooch2k9

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Was there not some IRB directive recently that teams had to face it, motionless and silent? I'm sure the Oz womens team got fined for not doing it.

It's all a bit precious to me, at the end of the day its a bunch of white guys pretending they're tribal warriors. Leave them at it by all means but I reserve the right not to give a toss about it.

Can understand the whole team doing it for unity and all, but have to agree the non maori players look stupid doing it.

That welsh impasse was brilliant live though, as was Anderson for us( not live, bit young).

Ah but how could we forget: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVufrShzUBw

corny

astonaidan wrote: »

I'm nearly certain it was Wales who wouldnt let them do it and they got a right thrasing because of it, I think think the Haka is brilliant though and rugby would lose if it was stopped, My fav moment in rugby was the war dance of tonga against New Zealand, Plus now that Ali Williams is back its got that much cooler, Didnt a certain BOD throw some grass in the air on advice from Maori chiefs that got him in trouble

As far as i can remember it wasn't that they wouldn't let them do it. They wanted them to perform it before the anthems so as to negate the psychological advantage they always get just before the start. I thought that was quite reasonable given the game was in the Millennium stadium but no the Haka has to take pride of place.

Don't like it tbh. I wouldn't mind if they did it for the crowd on a more laissez faire kind of basis. I find making the opposition stand in a certain place while throat slitting gestures are made a little bit distasteful.

Think its more a concern for the fans and authorities tbh. The players just get on with it.

CatFromHue

In mens rugby nowadays its fairly mainstream so I'm not too bothered about it. You can do whatever you want during the haka but ultimately if you want them to repsect you you have to beat them at rugby. I would also be surprised if it didn't psyche up both teams.

As far as I know the Haka never used to be performed in NZ it was only done abroad. About 20/30 years ago was the first time it happened at home.

I don't think women are meant to do it so at the last womens rugby world cup the womens team shouldnt have done it.

roycon

the new zealand basketball team did it in the olympics a few years ago

Teferi

theboss80 wrote: »

Ireland can certainly show how you can respond

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fg4FyhZ-Kg

I'm always hoping for this response from an Irish team every time I've seen us play NZ.

CatFromHue

Teferi wrote: »

I'm always hoping for this response from an Irish team every time I've seen us play NZ.

I'd much prefer to beat them.

Teferi

I'd prefer both.

And sure, won't we be facing them in the WC final? We can do it then!

Clareman

Wasn't it that the Welsh wanted to sing a song after the Haka but the Kiwi's said no that the Haka went last, when the Welsh weren't having it they just had it in the dressing room. I personally think too much is brought into the whole thing, it is an amazing spectacle and remains the most amazing piece of sporting theatre I've ever seen live (in Thomond Park) but if I was facing it I would just continue with warm ups or handling, I would definitely be passing a ball around at least, I wouldn't engage in a staring competition or anything with them

Hooked

And on the subject of the haka... who could forget this...

Hagz

Clareman wrote: »

Wasn't it that the Welsh wanted to sing a song after the Haka but the Kiwi's said no that the Haka went last, when the Welsh weren't having it they just had it in the dressing room. I personally think too much is brought into the whole thing, it is an amazing spectacle and remains the most amazing piece of sporting theatre I've ever seen live (in Thomond Park) but if I was facing it I would just continue with warm ups or handling, I would definitely be passing a ball around at least, I wouldn't engage in a staring competition or anything with them

Basically in 2005 Wales asked them to do the Haka before the Welsh anthem. The All Blacks agreed to. Then in 2006 Wales wanted them to do it again. But the All Blacks refused and just did the Haka in the changing room. McCaw said that if people want to mess around with the Haka then the All Blacks will just go do it in the "shed".

d'Oracle

Its just a dance.
Enjoy the show.

skregs

d'Oracle wrote: »

Its just a dance.
Enjoy the show.

If only it was. The IRB have some silly notions about it, where everyone has to stand there quietly and watch in reverential awe as they do their dance.
It's a nice money spinner for them, so they want it high on the agenda

Piliger

Teferi wrote: »

I'm always hoping for this response from an Irish team every time I've seen us play NZ.

Me too. I cannot understand why it was adopted by all later Irish teams against NZ. It made an impact on the All Blacks and everyone who was watching.

Bring it back !

Podge_irl

Piliger wrote: »

Me too. I cannot understand why it was adopted by all later Irish teams against NZ. It made an impact on the All Blacks and everyone who was watching.

Bring it back !

They're not allowed.

LostinBlanch

theboss80 wrote: »

Ireland can certainly show how you can respond

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fg4FyhZ-Kg

Not any more you can't. The NZRU at the time complained bitterly about it and said that they would never play Ireland in a friendly again if it was repeated IIRC. So it was never done again. Of course this was before the IRB made it mandatory to stand on the 10 meter line and "respect" it. They, rightly in their minds, seek to make as much of an advantage of it as they can. Something they have always done.

I remember once in 1990 I think when Wales played them in NZ and the Welsh team went down behind their goal line and the Kiwis followed and surrounded them before doing the haka. The end result, Wales got absolutely hockied, they lost the game before they started. So from the Kiwi perspective being precious about the haka is an advantage, one facilitated by the IRB.

No other team is afforded anything similar. It has also changed before it used to be the starting team, and if you look at it now, it's the entire squad and everyone else. I don't know if the tea lady is involved but I wouldn't be surprised.

Mind you, a quick look at the history of the haka shows that it was originally performed by the wife of a warrior who hid behind her while she danced to scare off his enemies.

d'Oracle

skregs wrote: »

If only it was. The IRB have some silly notions about it, where everyone has to stand there quietly and watch in reverential awe as they do their dance.
It's a nice money spinner for them, so they want it high on the agenda

It irritates me no end when people say things like this.

It IS just a dance.
It makes a nice addition to the spectacle, as it does when the Island nations do theirs.

It is not playing rugby, so it is of no effect on the game.

tommycahir

Here's another Irish response to the Haka this time @ U20 level

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjKHFvyn4bY

LifesaverNiall

if they realy wanted to they could? a ref is hardly gonna be able to stop a whole team side by side marching towards the all blacks.. worse that could happen is a fine.. and then the irb might take away the silly special treatment for the allblacks if enough countries complain..
its a wardance.. making teams stand still is pretty ridiculous

gooch2k9

tommycahir wrote: »

Here's another Irish response to the Haka this time @ U20 level

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjKHFvyn4bY

We don't much like these dances eh:p

Podge_irl

LifesaverNiall wrote: »

a ref is hardly gonna be able to stop a whole team side by side marching towards the all blacks..

He can and he will.

Third_Echelon

It's very much a physcological advantage to the kiwis being allowed to do it after anthems etc and right before kick off.... You are already facing the best team in the world, then you have to face a war dance. Weaker nations can definitely get intimidated by it...

It's very much a tradition in rugby at this stage and should be continued, but it shouldn't be given a preference or special treatment by the IRB. Local traditions where the game is being played should be respected.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncu6SzmHe3E

Thought the Welsh response from 2008 was one of the best responses that I've seen to it. Hold your line and don't break, don't stand down. NZ retreated first. They still lost, but fair play to them.

theboss80

Yep LOVE that Welsh response to the Haka. Would love to see Ireland do this next time and just listen to the crowd.

Podge_irl

I'd really rather we just beat them.

alchemist33

LostinBlanch wrote: »

No other team is afforded anything similar

Although we get two national anthems (unfortunately!).

Corsendonk

A bit of a tongue in cheek article(Get it!) from Frank Keating in The Guardian from 2008 but what he says about NZ double standards is very valid.

The Guardian 2008

It's time the haka posture is put out to pasture
New Zealand's charmless eye-rolling, tongue-squirming dance has long passed its sell-by date
All those who agree, stick out your tongues and roll your eyes in grotesque mime.
New Zealand's rugby haka has had its day. The stunt has been rumbled. The haka has become tiresomely irksome; an occasional and once diverting wheeze has long passed its sell-by date. Both rugby codes have been subjected this month to a tedious basinful of this now charmless eye-rolling, tongue-squirming dance.
Is it true the All Blacks claim copyright profits and top-whack advertising fees for their sacramental brand? If so, it seems to me that the haka has become even more disfigured as a crude and graceless spectacle. It has always been unfairly intimidating.
There is not a jot of fun in the haka any more. It has become a danse macabre. Off with it. For old times' sake, let it happen this Saturday in both Cardiff and Brisbane, then make Saturday week at Twickenham the last public showing. By public demand. Fat chance, I suppose. Of course, consenting adults in black can do as they like before leaving the changing room.
The haka has a history but it's an inauspicious one, nothing to be proud of, nor one twigged by those insecure suburban Kiwi colonials who bang on about the sacred flame of their ancient folkloric birthright and all that jazz.
The pre-match native rumba was first performed by history's inaugural rugby tourists; the all-Maori team 120 years ago which, according to the Illustrated London News of October 13 1888 before their win against Surrey at Richmond, "cavorted about in ostrich-feather capes and tassell'd caps in a device of novelty and excitement for the sizeable gathering". Seventeen years later, as we shall be reminded this Saturday, the all-white first All Blacks prefaced their immortal 1905 epic against Wales in Cardiff, reported the South Wales Daily News, "amidst a silence that could almost be felt, the Colonials stood centre-field and sang their weird war-cry." Even then, some historians looked beyond the "weird" and "quaint" and asked themselves why a group made up only of Pakehas (Maori for the conquering Europeans) should want to perform a war-dance of the conquered.
The plot thickened, or rather, some said, sickened. On the 1925 All Blacks tour to England, the haka was usually led by luminous teenage Maori George Nepia (who played in every one of the tour's 38 matches). But George was missing from the haka's chorus line when New Zealand toured South Africa in 1928, wasn't he? Well, South Africa liked All Blacks, but not real blacks, if you see what I mean? The same shameless and craven NZRU also happily pandered to what officially became apartheid in the 1940s by refusing to pick any Maori for any of the official tours to South Africa for the next half century. But the all-white All Blacks still performed the haka: how's that for the sacred flame of birthright and all that tripe? Not till 1987's inaugural World Cup in New Zealand was the haka danced by the All Blacks before a home Test (except once in 1975 when the Scots requested a pre-Test shuffle-shufti). Now, of course, the haka is a gallingly omnipresent bane down there.
And, oh my, what a palaver if during the ugly earth-pawing ballet of glowering menace and snarl the opposition XV does not stand mute in respectful homage to the brazen nonsense. I first saw the haka as a schoolboy at Twickenham in 1954 and was gently amused to see 15 rather sheepish white men line up and enact an amiably harmless mime-charade for about 15 seconds. Now the haka is an over-rehearsed, over-choreographed production number with a nasty malignant edge to it. It does nobody any favours, least of all rugby itself.
In rugby league's first semi-final last week, New Zealand's captain, Benji Marshall, sneeringly attributed his team's victory to being fired up by England's "utter disrespect" at not watching the haka. Last year at the union World Cup in Marseille, All Black Luke McAlister put down Italy's cruel 76-pointer to the same vengeful reason. The 2005 British Lions Test captaincy of Brian O'Driscoll lasted just 40 seconds before, appallingly, he was spear-tackled straight to hospital after apparently "disrespecting" the stupid stomp, the dreaded Kiwi caper.
In recent years I've enjoyed bestowing an imaginary extra medal to a few opponents who hearteningly and with a wink, a laugh or a look of seriously adult disdain, have refused to fall for the phoney sanctity of the haka. Goodies like John Jeffrey, David Campese, Tony Underwood, Richard Cockerill, Willie Anderson and only last Saturday in Brisbane, Adrian Morley.
Only more laughter can finish this dreaded dance.

handsomecake

Third_Echelon wrote: »

It's very much a physcological advantage to the kiwis being allowed to do it after anthems etc and right before kick off.... You are already facing the best team in the world, then you have to face a war dance. Weaker nations can definitely get intimidated by it...

It's very much a tradition in rugby at this stage and should be continued, but it shouldn't be given a preference or special treatment by the IRB. Local traditions where the game is being played should be respected.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncu6SzmHe3E

Thought the Welsh response from 2008 was one of the best responses that I've seen to it. Hold your line and don't break, don't stand down. NZ retreated first. They still lost, but fair play to them.

29-9 to new zealand.wales kept tryless at home.

handsomecake

Hagz wrote: »

I enjoy the haka, I think any controversy around it stems from the fact that it is performed by a such a successful side. Nobody gives a hoot about Tonga's war dance, because they aren't annihilating every side they meet.

Morf wrote: »

Nobody gives a hoot about Tonga or Fiji or Samoa's similar efforts because they don't appear to get special treatment from the IRB regarding not respecting it.

The AB's are a big money-maker for NZRU, the IRB and Adidas. Their status is being elevated in the same way Beckham's was in football. Unlike Beckham, the AB's deserve their reverence far more as they deliver the goods.

It gets special treatment because it is a crowd pleaser, it attracts new fans to rugby and the AB's are the biggest brand in rugby.

the irb dont have to issue decrees about samoa or tonga or fijis dance because all the teams respect it.no one encroaches or takes the piss.thats the elephant in the room.you know your about to put 50 points on them once they finish their dance so you dont need to bother with a "response".

just like jose mourinho needs to stir **** up off the pitch and in the media and incite rows because he cant get the better of barca ,teams need to come up with haka challenges to get under their skin and indulge in mind games with the allblacks because in your previous 6,7,8, meetings with them they have given you a hiding.

i dont understand the allblack hate especially on an irish forum ( bar bod and umaga).

for me the springboks and the argentinians and england of 03 circa (dallaglio/johnson) are much more unpalatable.

new zealand is a small country comparable in population to ours and regularly give england (the oul enemy) a good beating.they play nice rugby with an emphasis on scoring tries not like morne steyn SA in 2009 or johnny wilkinsons england. i think carter only scored his 3rd drop goal last week.they play lovely rugby.


yeah adidas have their claws in ,yeah the dance has been tidied up and yes they are a brand. but brands and advertisers follow good teams.

if ireland were crap and leinster rubbish too and only 2000 or 3000 people turned up to watch internationals would AVIVA still pay mad money for naming rights for the stadium .

tiger woods,federer ,nadal ,le bron james ,the all blacks ,barcelona.

yeah they all sell out but somewhere in the beginnning at the start they were playing their sport at an exceptional level to attract investment/sponsorship.

and on the IRB favouring the allblacks issue which regularly gets bandied about. the allblacks have to name their world cup squad the day before they play their final bledisloe cup match against australia.they appealed and it was declined.its ridiculous,the sqaud naming only had to be moved back one day. so we could quite feasibly see two b teams play each other saturday week while the world cup squads are wrapped in cotton wool.favouritism my arse

handsomecake

tommycahir wrote: »

Here's another Irish response to the Haka this time @ U20 level

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjKHFvyn4bY

ireland didnt score that day

rockman15

Hooked wrote: »

And on the subject of the haka... who could forget this...

Faced the Haka once and once only. Electrifying is the only word. Probably one of the best things I've ever done experience wise anyway.

What those Munster players did that night was outstanding. The intensity Howlett showed throughout demonstrates that it does matter to the players regardless of where they go or who they are playing for. Ok fine it has nothing to do with the rugby, but its a tradition now and adds something to every all blacks match and that of Samoa and Tonga too.

Whatever about the branding and all that commercial stuff, if we had a traditional dance worth the attention of 80,000 people I wouldnt have a problem with BOD et al. doing it.

on that note two national anthems is a farce. Its Amhran na Bhfiann or nothing for me. Ireland's Call is a joke. half the players dont sing AnB anyway (whether they speak gaeilge or not), the other half just get bored with the length, overly political correctness/sentiment of Ireland's Call and just want to get on with the game. I'd happily forego Ireland's Call. If you want passion in a national demonstration/anthem the Haka, Marseillaise and Fratelli d'Italia are where its at.

The Aussie

PTH2009 wrote: »

Has anything like this ever happend always wondered ??

Yes, I was at a game in Oz in the early 90's when David Campese got hold of a ball after the national anthems and went down in the Australian 22 and started putting on a display like the show boating soccer players do, love him or hate him the man had skill to burn.

And no they did not try and put him in a wheelchair 45 seconds into the match for "disrespecting the Haka Bro".

GerM

handsomecake wrote: »

ireland didnt score that day

Fair point but they did hold NZ to two tries and 17 points which was far less than they managed against any other side (NZ averaged well over 40 points on their way to the title). They weren't bullied whatsoever on the day and didn't take a backwards step. Starmer-Smith is a knowledgeable fellow but his sycophantic reaction on that occasion was nauseating. He spoke as if no side had ever done it before. The haka is a great tradition and spectacle but teams should be allowed receive it in whatever manner they wish unless the game is in NZ. The memories of France facing it down in 2007 of Anderson leading the troops in 1989 are some of rugby's most iconic and enduring images.

PhatPiggins

All teams should simply do the YMCA or I'm a little teapot in response. I'm sure that would go down well