More Ulster youngsters coming through

Monty Burnz

From the Beeb:

Peter Nelson, Christopher Farrell and Michael Allen will make their debuts in a youthful Ulster side to face Neath in Friday night's friendly at the Gnoll.

Full-back Nelson and centre Farrell are 18-year-old Phoenix Academy players while wing Allen is two years older.

They are joined in the backs by Luke Marshall, Paddy Jackson and Craig Gilroy, all of whom will make their first appearance of the season.

I make the average age of that backline to be about 15. It's great to see the amount of young players Ulster are churning out, like Leinster. Connacht seem to be disproportionately productive too - hopefully Munster will catch up in the not too distant future.

Tomtom364

Monty Burnz wrote: »

hopefully Munster will catch up in the not too distant future.

I think, Thankfully, Munster are catching up

Squad for Wasps Game

JJ Hanrahan,
S Deasy,
S Zebo,
D Howlett,
S Scanlon,
D Barnes,
T Gleeson,
L Mafi,
P Stringer,
D Williams,
D Cusack,
W du Preez,
S Archer,
D Hurley,
BJ Botha,
M Sherry,
D Fogarty,
I Nagle,
D Foley,
B Holland,
D O'Callaghan,
T O'Donnell,
P O'Mahony,
P Butler,
J Coughlan

Those are the young fellas that are pusing their way towards the munster squad this season i reckon.

WeeBushy

Tomtom364 wrote: »

Those are the young fellas that are pusing their way towards the munster squad this season i reckon.

The thing is though, a lot of them aren't actually that young anymore. They've been talked about as the young guys coming through for a few seasons now,of the players you highlighted Deasy is 22, Gleeson is 25, Cusack is 23, Sherry is 23, Nagle is 22, and O'Donnell is 24. They have yet to deliver on their promise while younger guys are breaking through and shining with the other provinces.

Don't like to knock Munster, but they are unfortunately lagging behind Leinster and Ulster in terms of producing talented young players.

Corsendonk

True, I liked what I seen of Barnes last season.

Amazotheamazing

WeeBushy wrote: »

The thing is though, a lot of them aren't actually that young anymore.

Show a little faith, there's magic in the night.... (apologies to Bruce)

While Munster are behind Ulster and Leinster, I think we've turned the corner. We'll always have less players until we can get a lot more schools playing at a high level but we're getting there. Next season we could play a backline of Murray, Keatley, Zebo, Hanrahan, Barnes, Earls and Jones, all fairly young guys.

You'd expect forwards to come through a bit later, guys like Dom Ryan and Healy are more the exception than the rule.

GerM

WeeBushy wrote: »

The thing is though, a lot of them aren't actually that young anymore. They've been talked about as the young guys coming through for a few seasons now,of the players you highlighted Deasy is 22, Gleeson is 25, Cusack is 23, Sherry is 23, Nagle is 22, and O'Donnell is 24. They have yet to deliver on their promise while younger guys are breaking through and shining with the other provinces.

Don't like to knock Munster, but they are unfortunately lagging behind Leinster and Ulster in terms of producing talented young players.

Good point, WB. They are lacking in the production (which is highlighted at underage representative levels) but the players that they are producing that are good enough simply aren't getting the opportunities they need to progress. Someone like Nagle signed a 2 year deal recently. The bloke was rewarded with being being sent back to the A team. He turns 23 during the WC and needs to be getting games now if he's to develop otherwise he will be another Donnacha Ryan.

Sherry is 23 and proved last season he had the goods in his sporadic appearances. The worst thing possible would be for an ageing Flannery to come back now and push him back again. I think in a year he has the potential to be as good as Flannery was in 2006. But I can't see it happening and I reckon Sherry could be waiting another year or two before starting a major game for Munster.

In terms of production, the changes are happening behind the scenes and hopefully, they'll bear fruit within the next couple of seasons.

profitius

POM, Butler, Dave O'Callaghan, Nagle, Sherry, Murray, Zebo, Hanrahan, Barnes, Scanlon are all coming through along with Keatley and Jones from Leinster.

Next season POM and Sherry could be the ones to make the breakthrough which further lowers the average age of the first team.

WeeBushy

GerM wrote: »

Good point, WB. They are lacking in the production (which is highlighted at underage representative levels) but the players that they are producing that are good enough simply aren't getting the opportunities they need to progress. Someone like Nagle signed a 2 year deal recently. The bloke was rewarded with being being sent back to the A team. He turns 23 during the WC and needs to be getting games now if he's to develop otherwise he will be another Donnacha Ryan.

Sherry is 23 and proved last season he had the goods in his sporadic appearances. The worst thing possible would be for an ageing Flannery to come back now and push him back again. I think in a year he has the potential to be as good as Flannery was in 2006. But I can't see it happening and I reckon Sherry could be waiting another year or two before starting a major game for Munster.

In terms of production, the changes are happening behind the scenes and hopefully, they'll bear fruit within the next couple of seasons.

I think the bolded bit is a big problem. They can improve the academy set up but they have to start trusting the players it produces.

Taking last season as an example, Munster have a lot more dead weight in their squad compared to Ulster and Leinster, and this prevents the youngsters breaking through as easily. Ulster and Leinster have less dead wood and trust their youngsters during international windows and when injuries strike. This has resulted in much more game time for the youngsters from these two provinces compared to Munster which inevitably results in them developing quicker as players, even if they aren't necessarily more talented.

Either way Ulster and Leinster are producing fantastic players which will only spur everyone on to increase/maintain high standards, which benefits Ireland in the long term.

shuffol

Saw the young full back on the bench James Simpson in the schools cup final a year back, looked fairly handy.

Theres youth coming through at Munster but not of the quality of Ulster/Leinster. Hanrahan & Zebo of the backs are the only ones I'd really rate, things went well for Barnes at the end of the season but I dont think he has the game for the top level(hope I'm wrong). hard to tell with the forwards as they develop later. Nagles excellent in the lineout but isnt there yet physically, really like Sherry, very aggressive player. Hard to know with the rest

finatron

WeeBushy wrote: »

The thing is though, a lot of them aren't actually that young anymore. They've been talked about as the young guys coming through for a few seasons now,of the players you highlighted Deasy is 22, Gleeson is 25, Cusack is 23, Sherry is 23, Nagle is 22, and O'Donnell is 24. They have yet to deliver on their promise while younger guys are breaking through and shining with the other provinces.

Don't like to knock Munster, but they are unfortunately lagging behind Leinster and Ulster in terms of producing talented young players.

who are these younger guys breaking through and shining with the other provinces?
In the magners league final last may the 3 youngest players of the 2 starting 15ths where Munster players Earls 23 Barnes 22 and Murray 22.
Earls is now regular on the Ireland team and was imo one of are best players in the last 6nations .
Murray just got his 1st cap and could well be on his way to a world cup.
And Barnes had a great end to last season and played very well in final last may. if that's not breaking through then what is !

Monty Burnz

shuffol wrote: »

Theres youth coming through at Munster but not of the quality of Ulster/Leinster. Hanrahan & Zebo of the backs are the only ones I'd really rate, things went well for Barnes at the end of the season but I dont think he has the game for the top level(hope I'm wrong). hard to tell with the forwards as they develop later. Nagles excellent in the lineout but isnt there yet physically, really like Sherry, very aggressive player. Hard to know with the rest

For me, Barnes just looks to small - he doesn't seem to have the natural heft for a centre - a bit like Earls. But Earls is an extremely evasive runner - I haven't seen this from Barnes yet.

I look forward to seeing more of him and I hope to be mistaken, but realistically, if you are not a potential international, you probably shouldn't be playing for one of the big provincial sides.

phog

Monty Burnz wrote: »

For me, Barnes just looks to small - he doesn't seem to have the natural heft for a centre - a bit like Earls. But Earls is an extremely evasive runner - I haven't seen this from Barnes yet.

I look forward to seeing more of him and I hope to be mistaken, but realistically, if you are not a potential international, you probably shouldn't be playing for one of the big provincial sides.

So we want each province to be able to field an international team now. :eek:

GerM

finatron wrote: »

who are these younger guys breaking through and shining with the other provinces?
In the magners league final last may the 3 youngest players of the 2 starting 15ths where Munster players Earls 23 Barnes 22 and Murray 22.
Earls is now regular on the Ireland team and was imo one of are best players in the last 6nations .
Murray just got his 1st cap and could well be on his way to a world cup.
And Barnes had a great end to last season and played very well in final last may. if that's not breaking through then what is !

I don't want to get into the p*ssing contest details but have a scan through the respective squads on each province's site and you'll see that the other provinces had a few players each that are a couple of years younger than those you've mentioned getting significant European rugby game time as well as multiple players involved in the ML.

A game here or there isn't breaking through. If that was the case, I could say McKinley made the breakthrough in Leinster last season or Paddy Jackson at Ulster. A breakthrough is showing over a sustained period that you're ready for the highest levels of the provincial game. Murray showed it certainly. Barnes is one that the jury is out on still.

finatron

Monty Burnz wrote: »

For me, Barnes just looks to small - he doesn't seem to have the natural heft for a centre - a bit like Earls. But Earls is an extremely evasive runner - I haven't seen this from Barnes yet.

I look forward to seeing more of him and I hope to be mistaken, but realistically, if you are not a potential international, you probably shouldn't be playing for one of the big provincial sides.

Barnes 6'0'' and 90kg (14 st 2 lb)
Eoin O'Malley 1.78 m (5' 10")88 kg (13 st 11 lb)
Luke Marshall 1.80 m (5' 11") 94 kg (14 st 11 lb)
I took the info from the official websites . Barnes was playing against 2 of the best centres in Europe in the final and did not look out of his depth . he also showed great strength with a great turn over in the 1st half

wixfjord

finatron wrote: »

who are these younger guys breaking through and shining with the other provinces?

O Malley, Conway, Kearney, Ryan, Ruddock, Madigan all made big impacts for Leinster this year for example.

The reason they're not starting is Leinster have better players in their specific positions, unlike Munster.

In Ulster, guys like Gilroy, Mcallister, Jackson, Spence etc.

Edit: Actually, is this a good example of this post?

O Malley, Ryan, Ruddock for example all starred in Heineken Cup games for Leinster (Clermont away for example), as did the Ulster guys.

finatron

GerM wrote: »

I don't want to get into the p*ssing contest details but have a scan through the respective squads on each province's site and you'll see that the other provinces had a few players each that are a couple of years younger than those you've mentioned getting significant European rugby game time as well as multiple players involved in the ML.

A game here or there isn't breaking through. If that was the case, I could say McKinley made the breakthrough in Leinster last season or Paddy Jackson at Ulster. A breakthrough is showing over a sustained period that you're ready for the highest levels of the provincial game. Murray showed it certainly. Barnes is one that the jury is out on still.

God is in details my friend! with out question leinster and ulster have very good young players coming through but I don't believe Munster miles and miles be hide them like the press and some posters on boards would have you believe. The truth is we just don't know how most of these young guys well turn out .
Imo the problem for Munster is that there is no stand out 6,7 and 8s coming up this is going to be a big issue in future.

phog

wixfjord wrote: »

O Malley, Conway, Kearney, Ryan, Ruddock, Madigan all made big impacts for Leinster this year for example.

The reason they're not starting is Leinster have better players in their specific positions, unlike Munster.

In Ulster, guys like Gilroy, Mcallister, Jackson, Spence etc.

Edit: Actually, is this a good example of this post?

O Malley, Ryan, Ruddock for example all starred in Heineken Cup games for Leinster (Clermont away for example), as did the Ulster guys.

How many were trusted in the knockout stages of the season last year, when Munster beat Leinster in the ML final some here said it was tiredness that was the problem, surely some of these guys could have soldiered for their province.

wixfjord

finatron wrote: »

God is in details my friend! with out question leinster and ulster have very good young players coming through but I don't believe Munster miles and miles be hide them like the press and some posters on boards would have you believe. The truth is we just don't know how most of these young guys well turn out .
Imo the problem for Munster is that there is no stand out 6,7 and 8s coming up this is going to be a big issue in future.

That may be true, but one of the main differences is that these guys are playing, and are doing it for Leinster, which is down to the set up.

All of those named above, plus others like McGrath, Mckinley, Morris etc have all done very well for Leinster in either the ML or HEC, and played quite a few games. Munster's old guard is hanging around and still being played it seems, which is blocking younger guys.

Hagan, Carr, Tracey, Cooney, McGrath, Macken, Marshall, Murphy, Furlong etc will all hopefully get game time this year too, and this is to go along with Healy, SOB etc who are still in the "young" bracket we sometimes forget.

Schmidt and Cheika are a big part to play in this.

GerM

finatron wrote: »

God is in details my friend! with out question leinster and ulster have very good young players coming through but I don't believe Munster miles and miles be hide them like the press and some posters on boards would have you believe. The truth is we just don't know how most of these young guys well turn out .
Imo the problem for Munster is that there is no stand out 6,7 and 8s coming up this is going to be a big issue in future.

It could be but in O'Callaghan, Butler and O'Mahony, Munster have three very talented young backrow players that could be capable of starting HEC in a season or two if they're given a chance now. If Munster tackle this issue now, they can avoid the fall out that is undeniably coming. Wallace is in his last year of contract so he will need to be replaced regardless of someone being ready. The issue with them was that they didn't have the sufficient power of their Leinster counterparts but with that side being addressed now they should be ready for an introduction into the higher levels of the game and will get their chance with Leamy, Wallace and Ryan set to go to the WC. This is only as long as Munster don't decide to neglect development and play Ronan, Coughlan and Holland as their back row. The youngsters need games now.

wixfjord

phog wrote: »

How many were trusted in the knockout stages of the season last year, when Munster beat Leinster in the ML final some here said it was tiredness that was the problem, surely some of these guys could have soldiered for their province.

But that's what I'm saying, they weren't needed, because of the strength in depth, whereas the equivalents in Munster are generally only playing because of under performing older players, or injury, and hell, if we're going down that road, Jones did his development in Leinster!

Amazotheamazing

wixfjord wrote: »

The reason they're not starting is Leinster have better players in their specific positions, unlike Munster.

Well it cuts both ways, Leinster fans are happy enough to see O'Malley rested behind BOD but criticise Munster for having Nagle behind POC.

irishbucsfan

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Well it cuts both ways, Leinster fans are happy enough to see O'Malley rested behind BOD but criticise Munster for having Nagle behind POC.

Where is this now?

phog

wixfjord wrote: »

But that's what I'm saying, they weren't needed, because of the strength in depth, whereas the equivalents in Munster are generally only playing because of under performing older players, or injury, and hell, if we're going down that road, Jones did his development in Leinster!

Strenght in depth but we were told the team was tired, why? If the strength was there they should have been used, either against Ulster or Munser in the M/L knockout games.

wixfjord

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Well it cuts both ways, Leinster fans are happy enough to see O'Malley rested behind BOD but criticise Munster for having Nagle behind POC.

But when BOD is out, O Malley slots in, whereas Nagle contents with MOD and Holland, which is why O Malley has more than twice the starts.

Also, I think you're overstating it slightly when you say people criticise Munster for not playing Nagle in front of POC or DOC!

finatron

wixfjord wrote: »

O Malley, Conway, Kearney, Ryan, Ruddock, Madigan all made big impacts for Leinster this year for example.

The reason they're not starting is Leinster have better players in their specific positions, unlike Munster.

In Ulster, guys like Gilroy, Mcallister, Jackson, Spence etc.

Edit: Actually, is this a good example of this post?

O Malley, Ryan, Ruddock for example all starred in Heineken Cup games for Leinster (Clermont away for example), as did the Ulster guys.

I agree must of these players are very good I,m a big fan of the leinster guys Ruddock and ryan I would love to have them and munster .As for the link i would agree with some of it I've always struggled with some the Ireland selections .

wixfjord

phog wrote: »

Strenght in depth but we were told the team was tired, why? If the strength was there they should have been used, either against Ulster or Munser in the M/L knockout games.

Well, the strength is there, as I've mentioned, and obviously Schmidt was going to play his first team in a SF or Final. The fact the three guys mentioned above were in the Munster team is more indicative of others not playing well, or injuries meaning no other choice, than McGahan giving youth a chance per se.

Amazotheamazing

wixfjord wrote: »

But when BOD is out, O Malley slots in, whereas Nagle contents with MOD and Holland, which is why O Malley has more than twice the starts.

Also, I think you're overstating it slightly when you say people criticise Munster for not playing Nagle in front of POC or DOC!

Nagle was ahead of Holland for most of this season, only time he was behind him, after October, is when Nagle had an ankle injury.

phog

wixfjord wrote: »

Well, the strength is there, as I've mentioned, and obviously Schmidt was going to play his first team in a SF or Final. The fact the three guys mentioned above were in the Munster team is more indicative of others not playing well, or injuries meaning no other choice, than McGahan giving youth a chance per se.

I give up and I'm over my quota for the day.

finatron

GerM wrote: »

It could be but in O'Callaghan, Butler and O'Mahony, Munster have three very talented young backrow players that could be capable of starting HEC .

I hope these guys do come good .

Correct me if I'm wrong but i remember reading or hearing on t.v that Munster had used the Biggest numbers of players last session in the Magners .also Munster finished the league with a lot of points to spare and as i remember most of the teams that played in league where a good mix of older and younger players.

The Drool is strong in this thread.

GerM

finatron wrote: »

I hope these guys do come good .

Correct me if I'm wrong but i remember reading or hearing on t.v that Munster had used the Biggest numbers of players last session in the Magners .also Munster finished the league with a lot of points to spare and as i remember most of the teams that played in league where a good mix of older and younger players.

You're right in those comments. However, Munster have a prevalent middle tier of players for want of a better phrase. A group of players that are experienced campaigners that aren't youngsters full of potential and aren't really international standard or international players that are no longer up to that level and a lot of these guys play major roles in the league campaign. On the plus side, they have the experience and consistency to see the team through a lot of league games but on the downside they tend to hold back some of the up and coming players.

Last season you would have had the likes of Ronan, Coughlan, Quinlan, Hayes, Varley, Stringer, Dowling, Fogarty, Hurley and Johne Murphy forming the guts of a very good ML side. All of those guys have the ability to stand out at ML level but they were no longer really good enough for the HEC or Irish team. They tended to mix in with the younger lads and provide a solid back bone to the team which saw Munster perform so strongly in the league. Other sides have middle tiers but they tended to be much smaller. Munster had the biggest squad in the league last season I believe.