Good Schools & religion

EScifo

Hi,

This has probably been discussed already but here goes.

I have recently had a child and have started filling out the applications for schools. All the forms ask me the religion of the child. I am an atheist as is my wife (didn't get married in a church or anything like that) and I really do not want to have my child baptised to get into a school. All the schools state that they will prefer the selection of children of whatever religion/denomination they are. I really want her to get into a good school and fear that the options will be limited due to my lack of belief.

I also think it seems to be a infringement on my rights having to state my religious beliefs on the application form

Anyone else have experience of this?

Perhaps we can hire some barristers to get it ruled unconstitutional!

EScifo

EScifo wrote: »

Perhaps we can hire some barristers to get it ruled unconstitutional!

I don't know the constitution but knowing Ireland I doubt it is unconstitutional.

Schools are allowed pick and choose based on religion. Talking about it in work yesterday I said the only reason I would baptise a child would be to get it into school.

Luckily there is an Educate Together school near where I hope to settle down and there will be a community school soon.

It shouldn't be this way but it needs political will to change it.

robindch

EScifo wrote: »

This has probably been discussed already but here goes.

Um, it has come up once or twice before

EScifo wrote: »

All the schools state that they will prefer the selection of children of whatever religion/denomination they are. I really want her to get into a good school and fear that the options will be limited due to my lack of belief.

Yes, that's how the church operates -- it'll happily take your tax money to pay for teachers, but reserves the right to refuse to educate your child if you can't produce a membership card.

This is legal in Ireland under the constitution which says the state shall "provide for education", rather than "providing education". This needs to be changed by referendum, but no sign of this any time soon. In the statute book, the Equal Status Act (2000) permits schools which are controlled by religious organizations to refuse to educate anybody whom they feel might contribute to an inability of the school "to maintain the ethos of the school" (effectively, any member of a competing religion, or no religion at all).

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2000/en/act/pub/0008/sec0007.html#sec7

Ruari Quinn as said -- weirdly -- that he doesn't want to remove this piece of legislation, but instead "proceed by co-operation", whatever that means.

EScifo wrote: »

Perhaps we can hire some barristers to get it ruled unconstitutional!

It's not unconstitutional -- it's directly permitted by the constitution, since the church needs to execute this kind of blackmail in order to keep parents delivering kids into the schools they control.

If I were you, I'd see whether there's any chance your kid might not get into school, then if there is (and I think you should assume there is), then go get your kid christianized at the local catholic outlet some dull morning, get the baptizmal certificate they issue and include this with your application and sit back and wait.

You are then permitted under Irish Law, to request that your kid is not present during religion "classes" so when the time comes and you get a place in the school, you can request that your kid is excused and you can proceed as you would have done anyway. Just be aware that not all schools appear to respect this right to be excused - earlier this year, a dutch chap had a commitment from the local school that his kid would be excused, but the school reneged on it without telling him, so he moved his kid to the ET school in the next town, twenty or so miles away. Far as I remember, the negative national coverage generated such bad feeling in the locality that I seem to remember him mentioning that he and the rest of the family were probably going to move town too. Of such kindnesses are Christ's Kingdom of Love built.

EScifo

Good information, thanks

It might be in the constitution but perhaps it is something that the European court of human rights could look at? Discrimination based on religion?

Dave!

EScifo wrote: »

Good information, thanks

It might be in the constitution but perhaps it is something that the European court of human rights could look at? Discrimination based on religion?

If I'm not mistaken there's already something going through Europe in relation to this? Someone else will know more...

Galvasean

Ethos!

[/trolling]

Daftendirekt

Galvasean wrote: »

Ethos!

[/trolling]

Such a short word, but such unpleasant implications.

Dades

Daftendirekt wrote: »

Such a short word, but such unpleasant implications.

Only when hijacked by religion!

The same with intelligent design.

meryem

This is a very good example of how religion is forced upon people in even more unethical form. This is also a cheap vote politics example wherein ruling party fears annoying catholic heads.

eyescreamcone

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ - Gandhi

What did he know anyway?

LostInDharma

EScifo wrote: »

Hi,

This has probably been discussed already but here goes.

I have recently had a child and have started filling out the applications for schools. All the forms ask me the religion of the child. I am an atheist as is my wife (didn't get married in a church or anything like that) and I really do not want to have my child baptised to get into a school. All the schools state that they will prefer the selection of children of whatever religion/denomination they are. I really want her to get into a good school and fear that the options will be limited due to my lack of belief.

I also think it seems to be a infringement on my rights having to state my religious beliefs on the application form

Anyone else have experience of this?

Perhaps we can hire some barristers to get it ruled unconstitutional!

This comes up an awful lot and most people don't really understand how serious it is until they are at the end of this type of discrimination.

My advice to you is simple:

(1) Stand up and be counted.

Too often people in your position wish this was not the case, well in order for it not to be the case it takes people like you to stand up and say NO MORE !!
Do not bend to the pressure and go against your will. People are too quick to want 'someone' else to fix the problem. If everyone who has come to these boards with this question actually did NOT batiste their child in order to gain a school place the leaders of our fine land would finally see the true numbers of the unbelieving parents who think this rule is wrong. BE that person who stands up !

(2) Support your local Educate Together school. If none exists in your area, be the one who sets one up. Educate Together offer a real alternative to this type of discrimination.

Good luck!

robindch

School patronage being discussed on TV3 at the moment:

http://www.tv3.ie/live.php

the Daily Mail guy is particularly annoying. Schools are about inculcating a shared identity, a shared moral order and an ethos. Didn't mention "education"

robindch

robindch wrote: »

School patronage being discussed on TV3 at the moment:

http://www.tv3.ie/live.php

the Daily Mail guy is particularly annoying. Schools are about inculcating a shared identity, a shared moral order and an ethos. Didn't mention "education"

Ask anyone else and it's about socialising ahead of education. With all these agendas it's a wonder kids learn anything

CerebralCortex

robindch wrote: »

School patronage being discussed on TV3 at the moment:

http://www.tv3.ie/live.php

the Daily Mail guy is particularly annoying. Schools are about inculcating a shared identity, a shared moral order and an ethos. Didn't mention "education"

Broken link.

robindch

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Broken link.

Try this one:

http://www.tv3.ie/shows.php?request=tonightwithvincentbrowne

Very facepalmy.

EScifo

I certainly won't be succumbing to baptising my child just to get into a school.

Certainly in Ireland the quality of education has nothing to do with the religious order but the social class and that classes expectations and cultural norms regarding education.

gaius c

Dave! wrote: »

If I'm not mistaken there's already something going through Europe in relation to this? Someone else will know more...

Good (if true). It's also against the UN charter of human rights btw.

iguana

Aren't there plans afoot to change the patronage of primary schools. Wasn't Quinn's first statement as education minister that the Catholic dominance of our primary schools would be halved within two and a half year. So by the school year beginning in September 2013 things should hopefully be quite different.

I had a "believe it when I see it" attitude to the statement when I first heard it, as tbh, I didn't think FG would be up for such a confrontation with the church. But events in the last couple of months have given me a more optimistic outlook.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0311/quinnr.html
http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/church-shocked-by-quinn-plan-for-schools-2598203.html

Aoi

Is there not some sort of catchment area rule/law or something? Whereby the child is accommodated in a school within a certain area from them, as far as I know the schools further away don't have to accept the child.

I could be completely wrong, if so sorry for the ridiculous post

Isn't it illegal to discriminate someone on the basic of gender, nationality, age, religion etc. too?

dvpower

Aoi wrote: »

Is there not some sort of catchment area rule/law or something? Whereby the child is accommodated in a school within a certain area from them, as far as I know the schools further away don't have to accept the child.

I could be completely wrong, if so sorry for the ridiculous post

Isn't it illegal to discriminate someone on the basic of gender, nationality, age, religion etc. too?

Different schools have different enrolment policies, but the factors are usually based on catchment area, age of the child, religion, sibling attending the school, sibling or parent previously attended.

They are required to make the policy available to you, so parents should ask for it.

They are allowed to discriminate based on religion - there is a specific exemption in the Equal Status Act.

Dades

dvpower wrote: »

They are allowed to discriminate based on religion - there is a specific exemption in the Equal Status Act.

If it wasn't such a sad situation you'd laugh at the irony.

Hiace.

Instead of doing the pretend/underhand stuff, why not get together with some like minded parents in your area and set up an educate together / non denominational school ? How do you expect these schools to ever get off the ground if parents keep doing what you're thinking about ?

dvpower

Hiace. wrote: »

Instead of doing the pretend/underhand stuff, why not get together with some like minded parents in your area and set up an educate together / non denominational school ? How do you expect these schools to ever get off the ground if parents keep doing what you're thinking about ?

Good idea in principle but I find that parents of children of schoolgoing age are usually up to their tits in other stuff.

dvpower

Dades wrote: »

If it wasn't such a sad situation you'd laugh at the irony.

At least it might be a tool in Ruari Quinn's toolbox in his efforts to get movement on the patronage issue.

Hiace.

dvpower wrote: »

Good idea in principle but I find that parents of children of schoolgoing age are usually up to their tits in other stuff.

It does take hard work, and what's more important than your kids futures ?
Besides, many hands (and a well organised parents group) makes light work.

dvpower

Hiace. wrote: »

It does take hard work, and what's more important than your kids futures ?
Besides, many hands (and a well organised parents group) makes light work.

My children's futures aren't in very serious danger by them going to a church controlled school. Certainly not enough that would make it worthwhile for me to get into the education business. I prefer for the education service to stick to education and get out of the religious indoctrination service.

Hiace.

dvpower wrote: »

I prefer for the education service to stick to education and get out of the religious indoctrination service.

It's not, parents and locals set up and run schools according to their preferred ethos, whether that be non religious, catholic, protestant, etc. The state provides the same money to all schools regardless. If you want something get out there and do it for yourself, it won’t be handed to you on a plate. We need more non denominational schools and parents that are prepared to run them and get involved on boards of management etc.

dvpower

Hiace. wrote: »

It's not, parents and locals set up and run schools according to their preferred ethos, whether that be non religious, catholic, protestant, etc. The state provides the same money to all schools regardless. If you want something get out there and do it for yourself, it won’t be handed to you on a plate. We need more non denominational schools and parents that are prepared to run them and get involved on boards of management etc.

Handed to me on a plate?

I pay my taxes in return for the services I get. Nobody expects me to set up my own health service or police service.

I want the state to set up an education service that operates on the same basis as all other services (I recognise that there are some religious ethos issues with the health service). In my ideal world there would be no such thing as ET; the state system would educate everyone together.

Hiace.

dvpower wrote: »

Handed to me on a plate?

I pay my taxes in return for the services I get. Nobody expects me to set up my own health service or police service.

I want the state to set up an education service that operates on the same basis as all other services (I recognise that there are some religious ethos issues with the health service). In my ideal world there would be no such thing as ET; the state system would educate everyone together.

They're your kids, the state is not a drop off and forget babysitter.
And what about the parents that want a different type of school ?
Like it or not they have the same rights too and are entitled to the same funding you are, and many of them are also prepared to put in the effort to run their local school.

dvpower

Hiace. wrote: »

They're your kids, the state is not a babysitter.
And what about the parents that want a different type of school ?
Like it or not they have rights too and are entitled to the same funding you are, and many of them are also prepared to put in the effort to run their local school.

What!!! Should we have a catholic police service and a non denom revenue collection service. I demand protestant road surfaces.

Hiace.

dvpower wrote: »

What!!! Should we have a catholic police service and a non denom revenue collection service. I demand protestant road surfaces.

You think some one-size-fits-all-dump-them-in-it-and-forget-state-super schools are the answer ? I don’t know about you, but I would not trust the state with directing my kids education, and I prefer to take a far more active role when it comes to my kids. Small specialised local schools are the answer.

dvpower

Hiace. wrote: »

You think some one-size-fits-all-dump-them-in-it-and-forget-state-super schools are the answer ? I don’t know about you, but I prefer to take a far more active role when it comes to my kids. Small specialised local schools are the answer.

Fair enough. I want a school with a Keynesian ethos. Sure the Monitarist kids can attend but they need to accept the Keynesian ethos (they can sit out the economics classes).
I want the state to fund this school because one size doesn't fit all.

Hiace.

dvpower wrote: »

Fair enough. I want a school with a Keynesian ethos. Sure the Monitarist kids can attend but they need to accept the Keynesian ethos (they can sit out the economics classes).
I want the state to fund this school because one size doesn't fit all.

Never heard of anyone wanting a school with this, but if you get a few parents, work away. I can't see the harm in it. Besides the Monetarist parents should be more than able to do the work of running their own school.

dvpower

Hiace. wrote: »

Never heard of anyone wanting a school with this, but if you get a few parents, work away. I can't see the harm in it. Besides the Monetarist parents should be more than able to do the work of running their own school.

I'm more inclined towards an inclusive system. I want to see the catholic, protestant, Muslim, Keynesianists, Blacks, ... you get the idea... kids all being educated together and playing together and growing up together.

Its a sentimental idea I know, couldn't possibly work (could it?).

Mapck

We have to trick the government to change the law. Hear me out on this. "Athiest child refused place in school in place of a Christian child" won't get people angry. People only do things when they are angry. So we need this headline "Christian child refused place in school in place of a Muslim child". I'm not sure how we will do this but I'm sure that we can do this. May "god" help us

eblistic

Hiace. wrote: »

You think some one-size-fits-all-dump-them-in-it-and-forget-state-super schools are the answer ?.

Your alternative to these terrible "one-size-fits-all" schools results in sectarian segregation, regardless of whether or not it's the primary goal. Let's call a spade a spade.

I don’t know about you, but I would not trust the state with directing my kids education, and I prefer to take a far more active role when it comes to my kids. Small specialised local schools are the answer.

You could have a point, about an overly centralised state system. However, it doesn't follow that specialised schools are the antidote. Why not pluralist, community schools that obey proper equality/anti-discrimination statutory laws? The core curriculum needs to continue to be set centrally mind you.

Gerry.H

EScifo wrote: »

Hi,

This has probably been discussed already but here goes.

I have recently had a child and have started filling out the applications for schools. All the forms ask me the religion of the child. I am an atheist as is my wife (didn't get married in a church or anything like that) and I really do not want to have my child baptised to get into a school. All the schools state that they will prefer the selection of children of whatever religion/denomination they are. I really want her to get into a good school and fear that the options will be limited due to my lack of belief.

I also think it seems to be a infringement on my rights having to state my religious beliefs on the application form

Anyone else have experience of this?

Perhaps we can hire some barristers to get it ruled unconstitutional!

We reared five children and all went to Catholic school despite both of us parents having no belief, lapsed. It is also a fact that Catholic schools have a much better rating than other schools. I can only reason that Catholic schools have an ethos that lends to a better motivation that is beneficial to schooling. In our case, we were lapsed Catholics. Getting through the day was our principal task with little time for philosophising. Religion was not an issue with us, we neither loved it or hated it. I would advise, for the sake of your children, to fall in with the system, do not impose ethical views on your children for now. Do whatever necessary to fall into line, even if it means baptism etc. Give your children credit for common sense, you may find they will eventually think along the same lines as you. This may smack of hypocrisy, which I despise, but for the sake of your children’s education…..The system in this country has changed enormously in the last 50 years, but unfortunately still has some way to go.
In Britain, a catholic education is highly regarded.
I share your views on religion.
I hope it works out well for you. We handled things in the above manner. It may not be for you.

Cheers,


Gerry.h

recedite

dvpower wrote: »

What!!! Should we have a catholic police service and a non denom revenue collection service. I demand protestant road surfaces.

With extra hard-wearing asphalt for all that marching...

Gerry.H

No dvpower, we should have a completely secular state free of all religion. I feel that religion is an unfortunate flaw in peoples reasoning. It eventually becomes a device to control and manipulate. When it is controlled or eliminated from a society it leaves a void that does not ever seem to be filled. I do believe that the void is preferable to the alternative. Would you raise your children in the United States?
I have no answer to this. I just said in my last thread that my five children were given a catholic education, mostly in Cork, latter part in Dublin. The have done well for themselves and none of them practice any religion--hypocritical perhaps but result none the less.

Cheers,

gerry

darealtulip

Rumour goes that this will be a topic on The Late Late Show this Friday, it might be worth watching.

robindch

Gerry.H wrote: »

In Britain, a catholic education is highly regarded.
I share your views on religion.

Yes, because -- on analyzing the figures -- two interesting facts emerge:

1. It turns out that catholic schools selectively refuse entry to thick kids, while pretending that they are protecting the "ethos" (puke) of their organization. Fewer dumb kids means grades go up.

2. Even when you take this discrimination into account, the actual educational level achieved by the selected smarter kids is actually lower at the end of their schooling, than it would have been had they gone to a school which was not controlled by the Vatican.

Can't help but agree with Hitchen's view that religion poisons everything.

robindch

In the UK, two-thirds of parents in a poll say that their kids don't take part in group worship, although it's a legal requirement that schools provide it. Almost two-thirds say that it shouldn't be a requirement.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14794472

As usual, the E word is deployed.

Terrlock

Why send your kids to school at all.

The best education you can give you child is homeschooling.

learn how to setup your own home school and you will allow them to have a much higher standard of education.

State run schools are too appease the masses thats all.

If you want to be able to send your kids to a good Atheist school then start one.

Don't expect others to do things for you. If you want the best sometimes you have to just go do it yourself!

Dades

Not sure if you're serious, but to my mind home-schooling denies children the social interaction they should have at that age.

Dades

Dades wrote: »

Not sure if you're serious, but to my mind home-schooling denies children the social interaction they should have at that age.

I was reading about it in the times a while back and there are so many groups and things for homeschooled children they have a serious amount of social interaction

amacachi

I'd want to homeschool my kids tbh. School gives them an hour a day of "interaction" with about 5 hours of "Shut up." Doing something useful like music or sports in the evening would make up for it rather than learning about the seasons every year.

ElectraX

I think homeschooling in Ireland is a ridiculous concept and usually the refuge of parents with too much time on their hands and too much neurosis to let their children go off and live their own lives independant of them.
I can maybe understand in the States where there can genuinely be concerns around the safety of children in Public schools in the larger cities.
But in Ireland...seriouslyDo you really think your child is going to thank you down the line that they missed out on growing up with their peers on a day to day basis. We all have good/bad memories of school but I think it plays a crucial role in placing children in an environment where their social skills develop etc.

Dades

bluewolf wrote: »

I was reading about it in the times a while back and there are so many groups and things for homeschooled children they have a serious amount of social interaction

That could well be true - as long as they were exposed to them.

I guess I can only speak from my own experience. I loved school and most of my closest friends remain people I was in school with.

Shenshen

amacachi wrote: »

I'd want to homeschool my kids tbh. School gives them an hour a day of "interaction" with about 5 hours of "Shut up." Doing something useful like music or sports in the evening would make up for it rather than learning about the seasons every year.

I honestly don't think I'd be qualified to teach them more than the mere basics in mathematics, physics, chemistry, geography, history, English, one or two foreign languages, biology, music and art.

I think it's great if you're confident enough to feel that you are, but I can't say I know many people who could teach like that.

amacachi

Shenshen wrote: »

I honestly don't think I'd be qualified to teach them more than the mere basics in mathematics, physics, chemistry, geography, history, English, one or two foreign languages, biology, music and art.

I think it's great if you're confident enough to feel that you are, but I can't say I know many people who could teach like that.

The primary school syllabus would take a few months to get through. The Leaving Cert and Junior Cert are ridiculously simple when looked at dispassionately. I'd also hope they'd be in a position to learn it all themselves though tbh. I believe an underlying problem with quite a few kids is that primary school is a complete black hole when it comes to learning. Every year the same stuff is "taught".
If it were down to me I'd probably give them a choice around 8/9 as to what they wanted to do. Not getting 5-6 hours a day of video games, TV, reading what they wanted, running around, sports etc. etc. would give them a dilemma. :pac:

iguana

amacachi wrote: »

I'd want to homeschool my kids tbh. School gives them an hour a day of "interaction" with about 5 hours of "Shut up." Doing something useful like music or sports in the evening would make up for it rather than learning about the seasons every year.

I'm a big fan of homeschooling as working in the charity sector I've met a lot of co-workers who were homeschooled themselves. What all of them had in common was a grounded self-belief that I have rarely seen in a regular schooled person. My husband is wary of the concept though so we are planning a compromise of full primary montessori education.

There are 2 or 3 proper montessori primaries in the country that receive no state funding and are run as co-operatives by the parents. The fees cover the salaries of the class directors, who are fully montessori qualified and the rent, insurance, heating, etc. (We are financially planning for it now, but if it comes to it that we won't be able to afford the fees homeschooling is back on the table.) They are the only schools in the country that are non-denominational, although parents can book the premises for religious classes after school hours if they want to organise them themselves.