DRIVERS could face automatic fines

allthedoyles

DRIVERS could face automatic fines in the post for failing to pay their motor tax if a call to action by council bosses is heeded.

Link :
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/drivers-who-fail-to-pay-their-motor-tax-face-automatic-fines-2848281.html

This leglislation is going to be implemented by the Labour Party.

If your car tax is 6 weeks out of date you get an automatic fine .

MugMugs

allthedoyles wrote: »

Link :
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/drivers-who-fail-to-pay-their-motor-tax-face-automatic-fines-2848281.html

This leglislation is going to be implemented by the Labour Party.

If your car tax is 6 weeks out of date you get an automatic fine .

We are SORN. You will sucumb to our evil plot to remove the "Hi Garda, My car has been off the road for the past 24 months, will you sign this for me pleeeease? hee hee"

A long time coming. And probably still another year or so at that.

seamus

Sounds good to me. Time to get rid of this "honour system" we've been using that allows anyone to declare their car off the road without proof.

MugMugs

seamus wrote: »

Sounds good to me. Time to get rid of this "honour system" we've been using that allows anyone to declare their car off the road without proof.

And if you do declare it offroad and you're caught using it then Uh oh !

Wonder if they will link ANPR up with this.

ie: I go and SORN my car then ANPR clicks me driving by. Will that show up and will they pursue you there and then or just send you a fixed penalty notice for being a plank in the post ?

seamus

MugMugs wrote: »

And if you do declare it offroad and you're caught using it then Uh oh !

Instant seize and crush. Only way to deal with it

ie: I go and SORN my car then ANPR clicks me driving by. Will that show up and will they pursue you there and then or just send you a fixed penalty notice for being a plank in the post ?

You would most likely receive a summons for driving without tax and probably a bill from the motor tax office.

colly10

seamus wrote: »

Sounds good to me. Time to get rid of this "honour system" we've been using that allows anyone to declare their car off the road without proof.

How would you prove it? My cars off the road ages

MugMugs

seamus wrote: »

Instant seize and crush. Only way to deal with it

And what about the cars ? :cool:

ArphaRima

Now that my car is off the road for 6 months at a time this is going to be a serious pain in the arse. But I agree. SORN is the only way.

Sounds good to me. Time to get rid of this "honour system" we've been using that allows anyone to declare their car off the road without proof.

Just requiring proper proof might have done it too. But then Gardai see it as a perk of the job to sign for their mates. SORN is the only way.
I remember going in with flight tickets, itineraries, contracts, visas and employment contracts before to prove I was out of the country. The Garda just laughed at me and stamped the form.

MugMugs

colly10 wrote: »

How would you prove it? My cars off the road ages

You declare the vehicle off the road.

If you get caught on the road whilst it is declared off then you get done. ANd the penalties can be pretty severe.

Gumbo

colly10 wrote: »

How would you prove it? My cars off the road ages

with SORN, you have to declare it off the road from the moment its off the road, and not afterwards like the current system.

colly10

kceire wrote: »

with SORN, you have to declare it off the road from the moment its off the road, and not afterwards like the current system.

Is there somewhere I can do it online or do I need to go to the Garda station?

seamus

fluffer wrote: »

Just requiring proper proof might have done it too.

Very difficult in many cases though. How do you prove that a car has been sitting in your front garden for the last six months, if you haven't left the country.

Is there somewhere I can do it online or do I need to go to the Garda station?

In the UK it can be done online.

furtzy

About time....the amount of untaxed cars I see every day is staggering. Some with discs over a year out of date on display.

Cuddlesworth

colly10 wrote: »

How would you prove it? My cars off the road ages

You prove it by declaring it off the road when it goes off the road. Not six months later when you want to tax it.

Henry Ford III

I don't have any issues with this idea. Cough up, on time, or get the bus.

colly10

seamus wrote: »

In the UK it can be done online.

So you must go to the Gards here to avoid this fine?

Henry Ford III

colly10 wrote: »

So you must go to the Gards here to avoid this fine?

No. You just declare the vehicle off the road IN ADVANCE

allthedoyles

Well while they are at it , they need to introduce a pro-rata system , whereby if your car is back on the road , to say 25th of the month , you won't have to pay the full month's tax .

colly10

Henry Ford III wrote: »

No. You just declare the vehicle off the road IN ADVANCE

Without access to a time machine that may be difficult, I'm just asking with the current Irish system, should I go to the Garda station now or is there somewhere else you can declare?

DarkDusk

colly10 wrote: »

How would you prove it? My cars off the road ages

Id say if the gardai were very suspicios they would ring up the M50 toll thingy and ask did your number plate go through the system during a certain time period. (That is, if you live around Dublin etc.) Good idea from the Gardas point of view:p

keysersoze0330

Atm the gards just sign the form no questions asked, whether the car 1 month or a year out of date.

seamus

colly10 wrote: »

Without access to a time machine that may be difficult, I'm just asking with the current Irish system, should I go to the Garda station now or is there somewhere else you can declare?

With the current Irish system, you don't have to declare until you want to start using the car again.

colly10

DarkDusk wrote: »

Id say if the gardai were very suspicios they would ring up the M50 toll thingy and ask did your number plate go through the system during a certain time period. (That is, if you live around Dublin etc.) Good idea from the Gardas point of view:p

They probably should do that alright, would be a good way of catching people out

Henry Ford III

keysersoze0330 wrote: »

Atm the gards just sign the form no questions asked, whether the car 1 month or a year out of date.

That's only because they are merely witnessing your signature. The Garda stamp doesn't carte blanche your car in any way.

Infact if you were say caught for an offence and made a false declaration covering that date the authorities might not be too impressed.

Thatnastyboy

As a self confessed motor tax dodger, (not anymore though, have done in the past when i was a rogue) I am certain that the current system is a complete and utter faliure, thats why it is played by arseholes like me.

For instance, I met a checkpoint while i had no tax, The guard let me off and just said get her taxed, the following day HE signed off the declaration for me while laughing and saying "sure you chanced your arm to lose your leg, feck it ive better things to be doing than writing out tickets for poxy car tax."

The SORN thing is a good idea, but that creates yet another ancillary sub-committee with directors and advisors and staff in the revenue commission, and im sure there'll be a way to play that too.

Why dont they just get on with the simple idea of removing motor tax and tax the fuel?

I wont play out the argument because its OT, but its so simple and the hugely expensive and sophisticated ANPR system can go and be used for other processes than chasing down revenue.

keysersoze0330

Henry Ford III wrote: »

That's only because they are merely witnessing your signature. The Garda stamp doesn't carte blanche your car in any way.

Infact if you were say caught for an offence and made a false declaration covering that date the authorities might not be too impressed.

I agree, but how would they know such a form was signed.If i lived in Cavan i could get the form signed in a station in Kerry. They have no record of it, or would hardly bother checking it out. Never heard of any such case happening.

bijapos

fluffer wrote: »

Just requiring proper proof might have done it too. But then Gardai see it as a perk of the job to sign for their mates. SORN is the only way.
I remember going in with flight tickets, itineraries, contracts, visas and employment contracts before to prove I was out of the country. The Garda just laughed at me and stamped the form.

keysersoze0330 wrote: »

Atm the gards just sign the form no questions asked, whether the car 1 month or a year out of date.

As Henry Ford says the Gardai are only witnessing your declaration. If you are found out later that you were driving the car whilst you claimed it was off the road then you've made a false declaration are rightly in the ****.

We need SORN as in the UK, the fact that for years no government or civil service has introduced it is indicative of the way the country is run. It just leaves so many holes that people can jump through.

While they are at it they should introduce the system of placing tax, NCT and insurance on the registration plates as they have in Germany and Sweden. The German system works like this:



The green sticker is the NCT, each colour has a year (green is 2006), the black markings pointing towards the 6 o'clock position indicate that the cars NCT is valid until end of 06/2006. The bottom sticker is the coat of arms of whatever ddistrict/county the car is registered and indicates that the car is registered and taxed.

Its easy for police etc to spot and more practical and efficient than the present system where the Guards either set up a checkpoint or walk down the road looking at discs in parked cars.

The Swedish on is similar



Green is a particular year, 11 is the month. I forget if this is NCT or tax or insurance but its far more efficient than ours.

You have to remember that anyone who isnt taxed is essentially putting more of a tax burden on everyone else and anyoe who isn't insured is also costing all of us who are insured.

The more efficient the method for weeding these people out the better imo.

PCPhoto

only problem I have is that the tax office isn't open when I'm not at work - and I cant do it online (Commercial tax - I'm self employed !!)

so I have to take a full day off work to get my car DOE'd and Taxed - sometimes my tax is out of date by a month...or even 2months... because I cant find the time to do it without costing me money.

Last year my tax was out from December till Feb/March - I paid it in full, including back tax.

Reason behind it was I needed to DOE the car/van and with the snow in Dec this caused problems - so had to reschedule the DOE for Jan - took till end of Jan before snow stopped and I got all repairs done to car/van, I got the car/van DOE'd but tax office was closed so had to wait a few weeks before I could get into the tax office.

Moral of the story - sometimes the honour system works - unfortunately people abuse it - these people should be punished !!

Also - just to add the day before I got the tax renewed I got a fine for non-display of tax, I phoned the Gardai and explained everything ...getting doe, etc and car/van was taxed the next day .... they cancelled the fine !! (Sometimes they do use a common sense approach and it works)

whippet

it really is staggering the waste of money in the systems geared to collecting motor tax.

A couple of cent on every litre of fuel (or whatever is revenue neutral) would be a much better system. It's a consumption based tax and those polluting more will pay more .. for example someone driving a 1.5dci doing 50k miles a year will pay more than a weekend driver doing 2,000 miles per annum in a nice v8.

The only obvious problem (outside of many minions loosing out on a handy job in the public sector) is that of commercial fuel consumers.

A system of rebates could be done based on tax returns for taxi drivers, HGV companies etc .... when they file their annual tax returns they can claim back a certain amount as long as the have receipts etc ....

Could also help to ensure a better tax compliance in some sectors ...

Matt Simis

seamus wrote: »

Sounds good to me. Time to get rid of this "honour system" we've been using that allows anyone to declare their car off the road without proof.

seamus wrote: »

Very difficult in many cases though. How do you prove that a car has been sitting in your front garden for the last six months, if you haven't left the country.
In the UK it can be done online.

Ugh, how could anyone care this much? The current system works fine, this squeezing the stone for the last penny BS is complete crap and waste of time and resources.

Our Car Tax system is an illogical joke regardless.

seamus

Matt Simis wrote: »

Ugh, how could anyone care this much? The current system works fine, this squeezing the stone for the last penny BS is complete crap and waste of time and resources.

Because there's an association effect. Tax is pretty much down there as one of those things that's "OK" to push the boundary on. But the kind of people who drive around unlicenced, uninsured, drink-driving everywhere, rally ****buckets around Donegal roads and so forth; these people don't tax their vehicles. Why would they bother, when they don't bother with anything else?

Tax is one of the few things that's easy to catch because every vehicle has to be registered and the government knows if a vehicle has or has not been taxed. The driver is not tied to the vehicle, so it's not as easy to tell if a driver is insured or licenced by looking at the vehicle.

If you target tax, then by extension you can put the squeeze on the idiots, because they can't tax it without insurance and they can't insure without a licence. There'll always be loopholes, of course, but they'll be harder to take advantage of.

It should theoretically lead to a reduction in waste because offenders don't have to processed by a Garda at a checkpoint, they'll simply be picked up on the system.

Mully_2011

People wouldnt dodge tax if it wasnt so expensive not everybody can afford new cars with 156 euro tax the old system is madness. one rule for the haves and another for the have nots.

Thinkingaboutit

seamus wrote: »

Instant seize and crush. Only way to deal with it

You would most likely receive a summons for driving without tax and probably a bill from the motor tax office.

Criminals copying reg plates for whatever nefarious activity and causing some innocent party to accrue vast fines, means that sort of arbitrary power isn't really appropriate in this country, or anywhere. Some probably posted this already. Eroding the rights of the greater number because of a small few cheats, shouldn't be done readily.

6 weeks is it? MMmm, so 3 months on 2 months off is now going to be 3 months on, 6 weeks off and chance sorn for 2 weeks to get you up to the 2 months

Dont know why they have to go messing with everything in this country its fine the way it is, no need to change it. It will cost them more to do than they will make from it.

Guru Maith Agut

Don't see why they can't copy what they have in the North and have Tax check vehicles at side of road, that could be piggy backed onto the current speed check vans that are supposedly saving lives. This option would save money and would catch untaxed cars out constantly and automatically send a fine and/or a bill for unpaid tax out the owner. Would also be a way of checking the tax evaders who turn up in garda station looking for off the road clearance.

Surely that would be more cost effective to run..

Paulw

Mully_2011 wrote: »

People wouldnt dodge tax if it wasnt so expensive not everybody can afford new cars.

What a load of rubbish.

If you can't afford the tax, don't buy a car.

naughtysmurf

6 weeks seems quite generous, I'd go with 4 weeks
That's more than enough extra time to tax a vehicle for anyone

Gumbo

Paulw wrote: »

What a load of rubbish.

If you can't afford the tax, don't buy a car.

what a load of rubbish.
1293 to tax a car here that costs 200 to tax up the north.

so many people use the UK and NI to compare things like salaries, public services etc but forget to mention the grossly inflated cost of living here :mad:

whippet

Paulw wrote: »

What a load of rubbish.

If you can't afford the tax, don't buy a car.

rubbish alright ....

i've a weekend car that is sitting up for the last six months as I couldn't bear the thoughts of taxing it for the 2000 or so miles a year i'd do in it.

The car is worthless in reality (partly due to engine size) and why would I want to scrap a perfectly good car. If tax was incorporated in to the cost of fuel it might see the light of day more often ......

rebel.ranter

The real solution:

1. Add 3-4 cent on a litre of fuel
2. Allow fuel rebates &/or grants for commercial users
3. Remove stupid disc from window
4. Close costly motor tax offices in every county
5. Negate need for mountains of paperwork & data storage
6. Re-deploy civil servants to more needy areas (with re-training) or reduce altogether if not needed or not re-deployable (that's what happens in private sector unfortunately
7. Remove unnecessary workload from Gardai enforcing the law

Will it happen? Of course not, it makes sense & would be value for money but no-one wants to rock the boat. Plus it has the additional advantage that it would be a true "Green" initiative, the more fuel you burn the more you pay, "polluter pays".
Back to reality now :mad: :mad: :mad:....

Paulw

Paulw wrote: »

What a load of rubbish.

If you can't afford the tax, don't buy a car.

nonsense, I have no desire to fill the governments coffers with ridiculous sums of money for tax.

Matt Simis

seamus wrote: »

Because there's an association effect. Tax is pretty much down there as one of those things that's "OK" to push the boundary on. But the kind of people who drive around unlicenced, uninsured, drink-driving everywhere, rally ****buckets around Donegal roads and so forth; these people don't tax their vehicles. Why would they bother, when they don't bother with anything else?

Association effect? Lol, if you had the stats maybe you could find they mostly have brown hair too! Those issues you mention are valid and lifethreatening.. trying to lump motor tax on top of them is distasteful.

seamus wrote: »

If you target tax, then by extension you can put the squeeze on the idiots, because they can't tax it without insurance and they can't insure without a licence. There'll always be loopholes, of course, but they'll be harder to take advantage of.

That would seem again like the motoring public and the motoring enthusiast especially being scape goated for not only cash, but as a half assed method to harass the dredges of society. It would be better to target them directly. Also, its entirely possible this little idea of yours could work in advance, they simply would drive cars un-registered and uninsured. No tax, no insurance.

seamus wrote: »

It should theoretically lead to a reduction in waste because offenders don't have to processed by a Garda at a checkpoint, they'll simply be picked up on the system.

Are you really trying to tie on a 2007 era Green initiative onto totally unrelated heavy penalties for enforcement of an illogical and inequitable levy ("motor tax")!?

keithclancy

kceire wrote: »

what a load of rubbish.
1293 to tax a car here that costs 200 to tax up the north.

so many people use the UK and NI to compare things like salaries, public services etc but forget to mention the grossly inflated cost of living here :mad:

Salaries and Public services in the North suck.

Whats your point ?

It costs what it costs in Ireland, Motor Tax is a cost of running a car, get over it.

Matt Simis

keithclancy wrote: »

Salaries and Public services in the North suck.

Whats your point ?

It costs what it costs in Ireland, Motor Tax is a cost of running a car, get over it.

Salaries in London do not however! Motor tax should be fair, can you explain why it shouldnt be?

ArphaRima

it would be a true "Green" initiative, the more fuel you burn the more you pay, "polluter pays".

Whilst I would be totally in favour your petrol pump paid system in that I own a V8 that does around 1000 miles a year, it really isnt that simple.

l/100km or mpg is not the same as CO2 emissions. CO2 is not the only pollutant either. However they chose CO2 emissions and set the scale so no revenues would be lost (or so they thought). Everyone bought a new, efficient car. So rather than hail it a success they are now contemplating increasing the bands to make up the lost revenue.

In whatever system we choose there will be winners and losers. At the moment I lose. I'd be in favour of a SORN system so I could tax it on demand and refund any unused months. That would be a compromise I could accept.
A tax per litre would overwhelmingly be in my favour. But it would also immediately cripple a lot of countryside dwellers who rely on cars.

I'm afraid there is no easy win.
Enforcement of the current rules so everyone pays would be a nice start though.

keithclancy

Matt Simis wrote: »

Salaries in London do not however! Motor tax should be fair, can you explain why it shouldnt be?

The cost of property in London + rates and the Congestion Charge for non borough residents kind of negates the whole purpose of using a car in London.

jimmynokia

colly10 wrote: »

Without access to a time machine that may be difficult, I'm just asking with the current Irish system, should I go to the Garda station now or is there somewhere else you can declare?

i love it we are in the marty mc fly thread here.

and we have a mod thats the patron saint of tax too LOL :D:D


SO WHEN IS TAX TO THE FUTURE(SOMETIME IN THE NEAR FUTURE) DUE OUT??

Gumbo

keithclancy wrote: »

Salaries and Public services in the North suck.

Whats your point ?

It costs what it costs in Ireland, Motor Tax is a cost of running a car, get over it.

get over what?

jimmynokia

rebel.ranter wrote: »

The real solution:

1. Add 3-4 cent on a litre of fuel
2. Allow fuel rebates &/or grants for commercial users
3. Remove stupid disc from window
4. Close costly motor tax offices in every county
5. Negate need for mountains of paperwork & data storage
6. Re-deploy civil servants to more needy areas (with re-training) or reduce altogether if not needed or not re-deployable (that's what happens in private sector unfortunately
7. Remove unnecessary workload from Gardai enforcing the law

Will it happen? Of course not, it makes sense & would be value for money but no-one wants to rock the boat. Plus it has the additional advantage that it would be a true "Green" initiative, the more fuel you burn the more you pay, "polluter pays".
Back to reality now :mad: :mad: :mad:....

Sounds great there i gather you cycle everywhere and you pay for the odd puncture kit

Gumbo

jimmynokia wrote: »

Sounds great there i gather you cycle everywhere and you pay for the odd puncture kit

Assumption is the mother of all F**k Ups

RR drives a 630i or 645i

jimmynokia

kceire wrote: »

Assumption is the mother of all F**k Ups

RR drives a 630i or 645i

shammmmmon mo fo im screwed either way ive an 850i alpina its going up for sale ive scaled down 2 litres in engine size now so not so bad.

be the first to see it.