a case for Murray

Coburger

Hey, does anyone think that Murray has a chance of going to the World Cup. Ireland just don't seem to produce any world class scrum halves (or is that halfs) IMHO.

O'Leary seems to have to take a step or two before passing (great in defense though). Reddan is a club player, poor execution and decision making at times with Boss being a bit better.

Will Murray get a full game against France or England? I have a feeling that Kidney will go with O'Leary and Reddan but would like to see Murray go along. Any thoughts?

theboss80

I think you should perhaps read the relevant Irish threads as its already being discussed there rather than start a new thread maybe

Charledontsurf

It's probably too early for Murray, but he's defiantly one for the future. I'd like to see Boss get a run in next two games. I'd be surprised if Kidney hasn't made his mind up yet. I'd say it's between Reddan and O'Leary.

Amazotheamazing

theboss80 wrote: »

I think you should perhaps read the relevant Irish threads as its already being discussed there rather than start a new thread maybe

I think it merits it's own topic.

The real pity about Murray is Munster could have played him long before they did. He's coming into the RWC short on experience which is down to Munster, not him and not Ireland.

Imo, it's too soon to judge him, he has only played a handful of pro games, but he looks to be a decent prospect.

theboss80

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I think it merits it's own topic.
.

Id imagine it will just turn into a bashing thread which the others are starting to become.

Maybe a poll would show the general consensus

bleg

Start him next weekend see how he gets on.

Podge_irl

If he doesn't start against France or England then I can't see how they could bring him and I don't expect him to start. Things have happened just too late for him. Though if I was coach I wouldn't have TOL near the team but Deccie seems to be a big fan so who knows.

MungBean

Coburger wrote: »

Hey, does anyone think that Murray has a chance of going to the World Cup. Ireland just don't seem to produce any world class scrum halves (or is that halfs) IMHO.

O'Leary seems to have to take a step or two before passing (great in defense though). Reddan is a club player, poor execution and decision making at times with Boss being a bit better.

Will Murray get a full game against France or England? I have a feeling that Kidney will go with O'Leary and Reddan but would like to see Murray go along. Any thoughts?

Reddan is a quality scrum half and proved it last night. You think Boss is better than Reddan but would rather Murray go over Boss if Kidney picks Reddan and TOL as first and second ?. I dont understand the logic in that.

My view is that you dont bring anyone to the world cup for anything other than to perform at the highest level. The group stages of the world cup is not the place to blood new players. I'm sure he'll have an amazing international career but I cant see any reason to include him in the squad for the world cup. If he had of came to light last year and gotten a cap or two for Ireland and shown his stuff then he would be in with a shout over Boss but not at this late stage.

athtrasna

Murray is the most exciting and enthusiastic scrum half of the 5 in contention for the 3 places on the plane (I know Stringer is very unlikely to travel but he's still in the 5). Last night he brought a spark when he came on and he moved ball faster than any of the previous three.

TOL was painful to watch last week. Yes he brings a physicality but he slows down every ball and limits our attacking options. And as for the box kicks :rolleyes:

I thought Reddan was missing from 9 for a lot of last night with other players having to clear the ball from the ruck, our game went up a gear when Murray came on.

Reddan is the only definite 9 heading south so far, I would bring Boss & Murray but in reality I think Kidney will bring TOL so the third spot is between Boss & Murray. Too close to call...selection for next Saturday's 22 should give us a signal.

phog

theboss80 wrote: »

Id imagine it will just turn into a bashing thread which the others are starting to become.

Maybe a poll would show the general consensus

How would a poll prove anything, people that have blinkered vision with regards to players wont change that view simply because it's a poll.

theboss80

phog wrote: »

How would a poll prove anything, people that have blinkered vision with regards to players wont change that view simply because it's a poll.

Relax yourself Phog , I never said it would change anybodys mind or prove anything other than whether the majority is or is not in the opinion he should travel. Thats All.

Phonehead

Even before yesterday I wanted Murray on the plane instead of TOL, but it's unlikely to happen as Kidney doesn't take such risks.

danthefan

Would like to see Murray start one of the remaining games, certainly looks to have a lot of potential.

CatFromHue

There is a bit of a conundrum now with the Connacht game. I would have given both Jones and Murray a start here but then I also want to see them against a tougher opposition like the French.

The Connacht game is on Thursday so there is no recovery period for them to even sub against the French.

Taco Corp

Just once I'd like to see Kidney take a chance. Murray looked very accomplished for the 20 or so minutes against France. Hopefully he's given a start and see what he can really do.

shuffol

Murray probably wont go to the WC, the rationale for the decision will be that he's too inexperienced and so may perform poorly, yet nobody in the media will bat an eyelid if O'Leary gets selected even though we are almost guaranteed that he'll perform poorly.

Theres a definite overreaction in this country when a new player comes in and performs poorly(SOB vs Samoa) yet if a player is experienced he can consistently perform poorly and the reaction is one of indifference. Cant remember the last time TOL played well in green, Leamys been poor since the grand slam decider, P.Wallace is consistently below average.

Podge_irl

TOL is a poor scrum half, but there is genuinely a difference between a known flaw and an unknown one. Kidney doesn't select TOL expecting a lightning quick pass, he picks him in spite of that flaw in his game and adjusts the game plan around it (poorly, as it happens).

I genuinely wouldn't pick TOL over Murray at the moment. But I would definitely pick Reddan and probably Boss over him in an important game tomorrow. It's a world cup, you don't pick players and hope for the best. We just don't know enough about Murray at this point. He has played 10 professional games...TEN! And none of those at even HEC level. There is giving people a chance they've earned and just blind hope and unfortunately, at the moment, Murray is closer to the latter.

pappyodaniel

Murray should go, he hasn't been phased by anything he's been thrown up against. I'd been saying McGahan should have been playing him for Munster ahead of Duncan Williams for ages before he started making his mark. No-one has mentioned yet how good a goalkicker he is (if all goes tits up) so that adds another dimension to his game. I'd have him in heartbeat and I reckon Kidney will too.

Out of all our current scrum-halves he is most definately the most well rounded followed by Reddan. Boss and O'Leary's flaws are all too evident so I reckon the 3rd choice scrum half will be down to between those two. I reckon Murray will start the next game and Boss will be the one making the 20 minute cameo. Against England I predict Boss will start and O'Leary will be the one coming off the bench. So when Murray gets his chance, all he has to do is do his basics well (hoping his pack isn't getting killed at scrum-time) and make a break if one comes his way.

Kidney has proved in the past (with Munster) that he's not afraid of making a wild card selection and for this World Cup Connor Murray will be that.

thomond2006

For goodness sake just bring Murray. I don't really buy the whole "He's only played 10 games". In those 10 games he has looked assured and you could say he combines the strengths of both TOL and Stringer (to a degree).

B0X

Reddan, Boss, Murray in my opinion, but for Uncle Deccie it'll be TOL, Reddan, Boss i'd say.

buck65

Murray is now our best scrum half. Neither Stringer nor O Leary got a look in with Munster at the end of season. Also don't get this "Munster should have played him earlier" stuff. He was 4th rated (Stringer, TOL and Williams were ahead of him) on the pecking order at the start of the season.
If anything McGahan should be applauded for picking him and keeping him there in the Magners Final. I could see him starting this weekend.

Tim Robbins

1. Murray
2. Boss
3. Stringer

LostPassword

Tim Robbins wrote: »

1. Murray
2. Boss
3. Stringer

Sweet Jebus - Reddan has had 55 minutes or so of rugby this year and he was one of our better players, away against France. Dropping him from the squad is obviously what we should do.

ionadnapokot

thomond2006 wrote: »

For goodness sake just bring Murray. I don't really buy the whole "He's only played 10 games". In those 10 games he has looked assured and you could say he combines the strengths of both TOL and Stringer (to a degree).

Fair enough. But would you prefer him starting or bench against Australia, Italy, 1/4 final and behond?
none of know how he will react when the pressure comes on. Even he doesnt! For that reason alone he shouldnt go.
Im a big fan though.
Reddan v Aus
Reddan v Italy
TOL v SA (assuming etc) (&Beyond!!)
Boss 3rd choice

shuffol

Maybe Murray has only had 10 games but its obvious he's a quality player, thought his 2 best games for Munster were the 2 home games against Leinster, massive games, huge pressure for such an inexperienced player yet he competely outplayed Reddan who went to pieces under the pressure. Look at his debut Saturday night, away to France, game there to be won, huge tension in the ground and he looked cool as you like, even calling to take one high ball that he could've left to POC. Also its not like we're taking about a kid who isnt physically developed yet and so may be a liability in defence, he's fine in that regard. For me the rewards of bringing him far outweigh the risks.

I'd take Reddan, Boss and Murray. Reddan is first choice though, he was the best scrumhalf over the course of last season and has performed well for Ireland when given his chance. Boss has consistently shown that he's an excellent option off the bench when the opposition is tiring.

Thud

LostPassword wrote: »

Sweet Jebus - Reddan has had 55 minutes or so of rugby this year and he was one of our better players, away against France. Dropping him from the squad is obviously what we should do.

Reddan was diabolical in th ML final and had several shaky games before that where boss was brought in to firm things up.

bamboozle

Reddan
Boss
Murray

i think we need to bring Boss as his game is different to the others. Unfortunately TOL will travel, probably with Reddan and Murray.

totallegend

Thud wrote: »

Reddan was diabolical in th ML final and had several shaky games before that where boss was brought in to firm things up.

Yes, Reddan had a poor game in the ML final, a week after playing in the Heineken Cup final and probably being out on the beer for the week. Did you notice how the entire team was below par, how the best team in Europe over the course of the season mysteriously weren't at their peak?

The rest of your post is nonsense, I was at every Leinster game in the run-in and in none of those was Reddan hauled ashore because of his performance. Boss was introduced because he plays a different style of game and that's what good coaches do, they mix the team to vary the style.

Reddan has been around for a while, of course he's put in bad performances, but the guy has proven experience and can perform at the highest level. He has two Heineken Cup medals in his pocket.
Murray might be the second coming of Gareth Edwards for all we know, but he has EIGHT starts for the Munster senior team, to suggest he is the best option on such limited evidence is laughable.

little173

I admit to not having seen a great deal of Murray but he does strike me immediately as someone with a touch of class and maturity about him. By taking 3 scrum halves we can afford to bring him and although he may not get much game time it will be worthwhile.

Reddan is still the no.1, his passing and speed to the breakdown has improved hugely and the he is very effective when the ball gets quick. O'Leary does worry me, good athelete alright but his box kicking and decision making is not good at the moment. Boss is a very limited player and have never been a big fan but he has improved his game and a good man to come on if need to close a game down and stifle it in the last 15-20.

twinytwo

little173 wrote: »

I admit to not having seen a great deal of Murray but he does strike me immediately as someone with a touch of class and maturity about him. By taking 3 scrum halves we can afford to bring him and although he may not get much game time it will be worthwhile.

Reddan is still the no.1, his passing and speed to the breakdown has improved hugely and the he is very effective when the ball gets quick. O'Leary does worry me, good athelete alright but his box kicking and decision making is not good at the moment. Boss is a very limited player and have never been a big fan but he has improved his game and a good man to come on if need to close a game down and stifle it in the last 15-20.

My big problem with him is he sometimes does not look before he passes the ball, this has resulted in intercept tries against England and SA.

little173

twinytwo wrote: »

My big problem with him is he sometimes does not look before he passes the ball, this has resulted in intercept tries against England and SA.

Maybe he is guilty of this on occasion but am trying to look at the overall impression he has on the game, if you look at say the second half of the HC final when the Leinster forwards really got motoring he is very fast to the breakdown and gets the ball away very effectively. This high intensity game is our best chance at the moment especially with our set piece looking shaky.

colman1212

I think Murray should go. He has serious potential and seems to be an exciting player. We need young exciting players. Irish rugby in the past has always gone with the old reliable s. Be nice to see them take a chance and bring a great young player with huge potential. Give him a start against England or France and see if he steps up.

wixfjord

I personally don't really rate Reddan, for the reason that he's quite headless, but he's by far our best SH option at the moment, and without doubt our best #9 for the WC.

We all know about O Leary and the fact he will definitely go, so the last spot is between Boss and Murray. (Think Strings is done at this stage, and rightly so)

Murray has been good in all the games I've seen him, but Boss also had a great season for Leinster, is great from the bench, is experienced, and brings a whole different game, which we could utilise very well with our backrow options.

However, let's be realistic here. It'll be Reddan and TOL fighting for the #9 spot.

FrPhelimYoung

I remember when Munster played Leinster in Thomond in the ML last April. On the day the following got a run at SH: Stringer, Reddan, Boss & Murray.

I watched the match with a few mates in the local rugby club and the general consensus was that Murray outshone all the others on the day. He really had an excellent game. We were all a bit surprised by this as we had heard feck all about him.

Boss deserves an opportunity in the next two games. I'd prefer to see Reddan, O'Leary & Murray go but I reckon Boss will get the nod over Murray.

Luckycharm

Would love to see him get a start he did well bar one stupid kick and turning his back at one stage when he shouldn't. Still looks alot better then TOL - reddan did well behind a beaten pack.

LightningBolt

Would really love to see Murray go. The kid is talented and in the big games that he's played to date he has looked very good in what he does. Obviously playing the likes of Australia would be a massive step up for him but it's safe to say that Kidney will go with either Reddan or O'Leary for that one. The last spot is between Boss/Murray in my opinion. I don't think Stringer will feature in the squad. Would be amazed if he is, genuinely will be.

Cpt_Blackbeard

My opinions on Murray are well voiced. I believe that he should travel and if given the chance, he could well become our first choice SH. He looks to have everything needed to be a top SH - Lets just hope he lives up to the hype surrounding him.

Its great to see that my ''Murray for Ireland'' campaign has taken off

Foxtrol

This has been done quite to death on the France vs Ireland match thread but here goes. As has been said the guy has only started 8 pro games and despite him looking solid we simply haven't seen enough of him to know what his weaknesses are at this stage. I'm all for giving young players a go but not in the world cup, especially when it would mean a player like Boss being left at home after performing well this season in much higher level & pressure games than Murray (you can forget about Kidney leaving Reddan or TOL at home).

If you even look at what is actually best for Murrays development the choice of leaving him at home is the one that is much more rational. Staying at home will give him more experience playing regular matches and he can put his hand up to keep a hold of the number 9 jersey for the HEC matches. If he goes to NZ he'll be 3rd choice, holding tackle bags and sitting in the stands and won't stand a chance of getting ahead of TOL when they arrive back to Munster as he will have spent the entire world cup behind him in the pecking order. This isn't even taking into account the chance that he could actually get on the field in the World Cup, implode and absolutely decimate his confidence. See Earls and the Lions tour for an example of this happening (this is Earls having 3 times the Munster caps, HEC exposure and Irish Caps when he toured).

phog

Foxtrol wrote: »

..............As has been said the guy has only started 8 pro games and despite him looking solid we simply haven't seen enough of him to know what his weaknesses are at this stage........

Maybe he's naturally gifted and has no weaknesses

profitius

There are 3 scrumhalfs going so theres room for a bolter. He looks like the most talented of the lot of them but experience is the big disadvantage.

I'd bring him simply because Ireland need to take some risks at the world cup and that includes a few player selections. We know what the other 9's bring to the table and they all have weaknesses.

The third choice scrum half might not get much gametime anyway.

PhatPiggins

phog wrote: »

Maybe he's naturally gifted and has no weaknesses

He joins the defensive line too often when he should be sweeping and he leaves the ball at the 8's feet for too long when our scrum is under pressure. Happily though both of those wrinkles are easily ironed out with experience.

Mister Dread

He looks the sort of player who would thrive on the big stage. As a leinster fan he made me very uneasy in the magners league final. He can mix it up wiht the best in europe on a final stage so I'm fairly sure he can handle a world cup game.
I hate this **** of picking guys based on their average performance of the last four years. Look where that got us at the last world cup. All the rest of the teams know what our scrum halves are about but not Murray.

Foxtrol

Mister Dread wrote: »

He looks the sort of player who would thrive on the big stage. As a leinster fan he made me very uneasy in the magners league final. He can mix it up wiht the best in europe on a final stage so I'm fairly sure he can handle a world cup game.
I hate this **** of picking guys based on their average performance of the last four years. Look where that got us at the last world cup. All the rest of the teams know what our scrum halves are about but not Murray.

The world cup isn't the place to be picking a player who "looks the sort of player who would thrive on the big stage". This isn't the Autumn Internationals (where Kidney gave SOB barely any game time when he was ripping apart teams in the HEC), this will be one of the highest intensity and pressure situations that these players will ever face and people want to throw in a lad with so little experience. I understand the concept of having a bolter but would any other top tier team even contemplate bringing a player with 8 professional starts.

If you're using the Magners final as a barometer then Ryan should be starting ahead of SOB, Coughlan ahead of Heaslip, Horan and Hayes ahead of Healy and Ross...

Luckycharm

Foxtrol wrote: »

The world cup isn't the place to be picking a player who "looks the sort of player who would thrive on the big stage". This isn't the Autumn Internationals (where Kidney gave SOB barely any game time when he was ripping apart teams in the HEC), this will be one of the highest intensity and pressure situations that these players will ever face and people want to throw in a lad with so little experience. I understand the concept of having a bolter but would any other top tier team even contemplate bringing a player with 8 professional starts.
If you're using the Magners final as a barometer then Ryan should be starting ahead of SOB, Coughlan ahead of Heaslip, Horan and Hayes ahead of Healy and Ross...

Genia was playing for OZ at a younger age and after only a few professional starts. George North only has a few Professional starts and is starring on the wing for Wales.
BOD played for Ireland in the 1999 RWC and would not have been playing with Leinster very long. If you are good enough you are old enough - the SH teams aren't afraid to blood players when they are young. SH is probally one of our weakest positions and we all know the limitations of our current batch- why not bring him he couldn't be any worse then TOL.

twinytwo

Foxtrol wrote: »

The world cup isn't the place to be picking a player who "looks the sort of player who would thrive on the big stage". This isn't the Autumn Internationals (where Kidney gave SOB barely any game time when he was ripping apart teams in the HEC), this will be one of the highest intensity and pressure situations that these players will ever face and people want to throw in a lad with so little experience. I understand the concept of having a bolter but would any other top tier team even contemplate bringing a player with 8 professional starts.

If you're using the Magners final as a barometer then Ryan should be starting ahead of SOB, Coughlan ahead of Heaslip, Horan and Hayes ahead of Healy and Ross...

If i recall correctly Drico didnt have much experience when he played in the 99 Wc and look at the player he turned in to.

Damn you lucky charm:pac:

twinytwo

profitius wrote: »

There are 3 scrumhalfs going so theres room for a bolter. He looks like the most talented of the lot of them but experience is the big disadvantage.

I'd bring him simply because Ireland need to take some risks at the world cup and that includes a few player selections. We know what the other 9's bring to the table and they all have weaknesses.

The third choice scrum half might not get much gametime anyway.

I cant see why he could not play against the weaker teams?

hyannisman

I would love to see him go and think he should be started against France & or England (give him one full game or a 1/2 in each). He looked a better player than redden in the game against France and had a great game in the Magners league final. He has done everything asked of him so far.

Podge_irl

Luckycharm wrote: »

Genia was playing for OZ at a younger age and after only a few professional starts. .

He played two seasons of S14 before playing for the Wallabies though.

Foxtrol

Luckycharm wrote: »

Genia was playing for OZ at a younger age and after only a few professional starts. George North only has a few Professional starts and is starring on the wing for Wales.
BOD played for Ireland in the 1999 RWC and would not have been playing with Leinster very long. If you are good enough you are old enough - the SH teams aren't afraid to blood players when they are young. SH is probally one of our weakest positions and we all know the limitations of our current batch- why not bring him he couldn't be any worse then TOL.

As Podge has pointed out Genia had 27 Super 14 appearances when he made his debut for OZ so Murrays 8 magners and amlin games dont come close to the level of consistent competition that Genia faced before he was selected. Comparing him to BOD, can we seriously calm the hype down?

I've complaining all year about Kidney not blooding players or trying different combinations in the AI's and 6 nations but the world cup simply isn't the place to try it. No one has yet given me an example of a player with so little club and international experience who may be selected for a team who has hopes to be vying for the semi finals (if you want to include Wales in that bracket then despite North having very few club starts he's already played 7 times for the national side).

To be honest I wouldn't mind if TOL was left back at home as he has had very little game time since coming back injury and was in horrible form before that. Even having said that I still believe that it would be much more beneficial for Murrays development that he stay back with Munster and get proper game time.

profitius

Foxtrol wrote: »

As Podge has pointed out Genia had 27 Super 14 appearances when he made his debut for OZ so Murrays 8 magners and amlin games dont come close to the level of consistent competition that Genia faced before he was selected. Comparing him to BOD, can we seriously calm the hype down?

We're comparing him to TOL, Reddan, Boss and Stringer. You're basing your argument on experience alone which is fine depending on how highly you value experience.

James O'Connor hadn't much experience before he played for Australia but it was obvious to the Aussies that he was so talented he would be good eough at that young age. Murray is a step up on the talent we already have at scrum half. I'm sure ROG and Sexton wouldn't mind an extra split second on the ball.

Would he crumble under pressure? He hardly put a foot wrong in the ML final but who knows, the world cup is a different matter. Kidney will be looking at him closely to see what sort of character he is and will he be able to handle the pressure of a world cup. Thats the biggest factor for me although he played well in the big games for Munster.

profitius

twinytwo wrote: »

I cant see why he could not play against the weaker teams?

Yeah I agree and he would be a bit of an unknown for the opposition too.