''Islam is a religion of peace'' (debate)

Undergod

dead one wrote: »

a) says the woman who's carefully brainwashed (by the same man:)) that the era of freedom has finally dawned upon her
b) says the woman who is now decreased to being a decoration piece in commercial institutions
c) says the woman who is now a source of entertainment for hungry men.
e) says the woman who comforts the fatigue of tired minds and bodies..
f) says the woman who is reduced to Immodest and shameful scenes in movies/commercials
by the woman in above means (women as general eastern or western) not any special women----

Uncovered gals walking shameless!
Dead one got an eyeful, and felt bashful
“Your veiling?” he asked. “With our men!” they said.
“It covers their insight , and adorns their understanding,!”

Tbh, I'm fine with all that. The only problem is there's a gender imbalance, men aren't as objectified as women, but I guess that's a societal thing because the market for it isn't as strong?

If they want to go and be entertainment for hungry men, let 'em! If they don't, they don't have to.

SamHarris

Undergod wrote: »

Tbh, I'm fine with all that. The only problem is there's a gender imbalance, men aren't as objectified as women, but I guess that's a societal thing because the market for it isn't as strong?

If they want to go and be entertainment for hungry men, let 'em! If they don't, they don't have to.

Second, this element of choice is fundamental. It also applies to women who wish to wear the burqa, in most Western societies. The fact that so few women do when a choice is presented is indicative of how oppressive Islamic soceity is.

Standman

SamHarris wrote: »

Second, this element of choice is fundamental. It also applies to women who wish to wear the burqa, in most Western societies. The fact that so few women do when a choice is presented is indicative of how oppressive Islamic soceity is.

Are there many Islamic societies that impose the wearing of a Burqa though? As far as I know even in Saudi Arabia the face veil is one of the few things a woman can choose to wear or not.

SamHarris

Standman wrote: »

Are there many Islamic societies that impose the wearing of a Burqa though? As far as I know even in Saudi Arabia the face veil is one of the few things a woman can choose to wear or not.

Maybe not, I assume they have to cover most of their hair however? Afghanistan springs to mind.

Regardless there are many restrictions for women in an Islamic society.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia

Many argue that they do not want change, but its almost impossible to argue that someone does not want the OPTION of doing something differently.

Standman

SamHarris wrote: »

Maybe not, I assume they have to cover most of their hair however? Afghanistan springs to mind.

Regardless there are many restrictions for women in an Islamic society.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia

Many argue that they do not want change, but its almost impossible to argue that someone does not want the OPTION of doing something differently.

Yes, the impression I get from hearing Muslims talking about this (apparent also from deadones posts) is that the only solution to objectification of women is to deny them the right to choose.

Brown Bomber

Sam you seem to have missed this.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Dear me. Thanks for wasting my time. I just read through all that. Did you?

"More work is needed to understand the significance, if any of culture and ethnicity in contributing to both perpetrator and victim profiles"

You said that:

Originally Posted by SamHarris View Post
Muslims are many times for likely to be involved in a rape case.
In this case it was cited as a major contributing factor for the perpetrators actions http://www.derbyscb.org.uk/docs/BD09...iveSummary.pdf

Not only does it not only NOT cite the Mooslim effect as being a "major contributing factor". It doesn't even mention the if they were even Muslims FFS!

How on earth did you take it they are Muslims from that report?

Brown Bomber

everyday taxi wrote: »

Another thing which struck me as funny, in the opening of the debate for the motion, they use Zeba Khan. A beautiful "almost western" woman, non hijab wearing, liberal, open minded, tolerant, educated...muslim. This puts they're argument at a disadvantage immediately. Its the equivalent of bringing Megan Fox to mars and telling martians she's the average earth woman. Why not pluck some average real (percentage-wise) muslim woman from say...Pakistan? That would of been a giggle. Considering they used Zeba Khan and LOST the argument, to me that says alot.

Are you insinuating that the average Muslim woman isn't beautiful, intelligent, educated and so on?

You mention Pakistan. Statistically an Asian woman is likely to have a higher IQ than ethnic Europeans.

What does a Muslim woman look like? Like this Muslim?

Undergod

And some of the female newsreaders on al-Jazeera are pretty hot; it being based in Qatar I assume the staff are largely Muslim.

everyday taxi

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Are you insinuating that the average Muslim woman isn't beautiful, intelligent, educated and so on?

You mention Pakistan. Statistically an Asian woman is likely to have a higher IQ than ethnic Europeans.

What does a Muslim woman look like? Like this Muslim?

I notice the sneaky way you try twist the stats by mentioning asian women, we all of course know that includes Chinese/Japanese. Lets focus the spotlight a little so. A direct question....answer it directly. Are Pakistani women likely to have a higher or lower IQ than your average ethnic european?

Penn

Lesbian couple in Indonesia forced to separate due to Islamic law. Not to mention that they are being forcibly separated and monitored by police force.

Best bit: The local police chief told them that Islam says they should be beheaded and burned for what they did.

fontanalis

Barrington wrote: »

Lesbian couple in Indonesia forced to separate due to Islamic law. Not to mention that they are being forcibly separated and monitored by police force.

Best bit: The local police chief told them that Islam says they should be beheaded and burned for what they did.

No but:

Originally Posted by dead one
a) says the woman who's carefully brainwashed (by the same man) that the era of freedom has finally dawned upon her
b) says the woman who is now decreased to being a decoration piece in commercial institutions
c) says the woman who is now a source of entertainment for hungry men.
e) says the woman who comforts the fatigue of tired minds and bodies..
f) says the woman who is reduced to Immodest and shameful scenes in movies/commercials
by the woman in above means (women as general eastern or western) not any special women----

Uncovered gals walking shameless!
Dead one got an eyeful, and felt bashful
“Your veiling?” he asked. “With our men!” they said.
“It covers their insight , and adorns their understanding,!”

SamHarris

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Sam you seem to have missed this.



You said that:



Not only does it not only NOT cite the Mooslim effect as being a "major contributing factor". It doesn't even mention the if they were even Muslims FFS!

How on earth did you take it they are Muslims from that report?

Because if you bothered looking at the case they were.

It directly said culture and religion was a factor in their behaviour, the link seems to be down now but Im finished talking with you, you have lied and complained too much for me to bother any more. When a repot disagrees with you, its made up. When figures do not follow your assumptions, you create your own (1 million more unaccounted for?). When a post proves you wrong on the main topic you search desperatly for something else to ask, as though it proves your point.

A 9/11 "truther" who sees "Zionist plots" everywhere is not interested in truth, they are interested in spreading their own opinions as facts. I have a feeling your just extatic that Islam and Wahabism in particular encourages such xenophobia that it creates alot of allies for you in your perceived crusade against "Zionism".

Cork24

Studied Islam, Buddhist, Hindu, & Catholic Religion.

Buddhist & Islam have some things shared. but if you want to know who has the most peace between Islam and Catholics,

It is Islam, It is said that their are 12 Steps to Heaven and 12 to Hell each step that you take in life will give you a better chance to reach a higher step in the after life. Same in Buddhism.

you must take your shoes off going into a Muslims house and Church. "I wish people would do that when entering my house. walking in with sh*t at the end of their shoes pi** me off "

Islam is a Religion of peace Sad to say i can not say the same for my Catholic friends. the Bible is one of the most Horrifying books one could read.

Brown Bomber

SamHarris wrote: »

A 9/11 "truther" who sees "Zionist plots" everywhere is not interested in truth, they are interested in spreading their own opinions as facts.

You'll probably back down and avoid the issue as usual but please list some examples of when I've stated my opinions as facts. This is highly hypocritical of you. Almost everything you've said has you been stating your own opinion as facts.

You haven't provided any evidence for any of these claims.

1. a UK Muslim is far more likely to rape than a non Muslim
2. This is a direct result of its misogonistic, anti-woman tenor.
3. Perhaps the most annoying aspect of the problems within Islam is Muslims complete lack of will to confront them
4. a majority of Muslims polled in every country did not believe 9/11 was carried out by Muslims.
5. There is a constant victim mentality, that reinforces and encourages the continuing cycle of violence throughout Muslim lands
6. Muslims are many times for likely to be involved in a rape case.
7. In Afghanistan it is routine for women to be gang raped in Tribal justice

SamHarris wrote: »

I have a feeling your just extatic that Islam and Wahabism in particular encourages such xenophobia.

So you accept that you are xenophobic? Great. It's a start at least.

SamHarris

Cork24 wrote: »

Studied Islam, Buddhist, Hindu, & Catholic Religion.

Buddhist & Islam have some things shared. but if you want to know who has the most peace between Islam and Catholics,

It is Islam, It is said that their are 12 Steps to Heaven and 12 to Hell each step that you take in life will give you a better chance to reach a higher step in the after life. Same in Buddhism.

you must take your shoes off going into a Muslims house and Church. "I wish people would do that when entering my house. walking in with sh*t at the end of their shoes pi** me off "

Islam is a Religion of peace Sad to say i can not say the same for my Catholic friends. the Bible is one of the most Horrifying books one could read.

The proof of that particular pudding is in the eating Im afraid. It really matters not at all that the old testament calls for people to stone gay people to death, how often does this actually occur? Very clearly Jewish society has taken it upon itself to ignore/dispute that particular aspect of their holy book. This is much less common in Islam.

Islam is a daily justification for violence, worldwide.

Brown Bomber

Barrington wrote: »

Lesbian couple in Indonesia forced to separate due to Islamic law. Not to mention that they are being forcibly separated and monitored by police force.

Best bit: The local police chief told them that Islam says they should be beheaded and burned for what they did.

Based on the last link you posted which turned out to have absolutely nothing to do with Islam how confident are you that this article is completely accurate?

Brown Bomber

SamHarris wrote: »

The proof of that particular pudding is in the eating Im afraid. It really matters not at all that the old testament calls for people to stone gay people to death, how often does this actually occur? Very clearly Jewish society has taken it upon itself to ignore/dispute that particular aspect of their holy book. This is much less common in Islam.

Islam is a daily justification for violence, worldwide.

oh well!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxDHjiw2uoc

Brown Bomber

everyday taxi wrote: »

I notice the sneaky way you try twist the stats by mentioning asian women, we all of course know that includes Chinese/Japanese. Lets focus the spotlight a little so

Correction: YOU MENTIONED ASIAN WOMEN. Pakistan is in Asia. How in the name of all that's good is it "sneaky" to say Pakistan is in Asia? This is getting ridiculous now.

.

everyday taxi wrote: »

A direct question....answer it directly. Are Pakistani women likely to have a higher or lower IQ than your average ethnic european?

I honestly have no idea. Now perhaps you could answer my questions a) what does a Muslim look like? and b) were you insinuating that the average Muslim woman is the opposite of all those traits you mentioned previously - beautiful, intelligent, educated etc?

And I'd like to add a third if you don't mind,

What did you mean when you said that Zeba Khan was "almost Western"?

She is Western. She is a US citizen.

SamHarris

Brown Bomber wrote: »

oh well!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxDHjiw2uoc

Never said it never occurs, I said it is much much rarer than the near daily suicide bombings in the name of Islam, the routine killing of rape victims, the severe oppression of millions of women in the name of Islam.


That anyone tries to defend this or claim it "doesnt happen" boggles the mind.

Dades

Cork24 wrote: »

Studied Islam, Buddhist, Hindu, & Catholic Religion.

Buddhist & Islam have some things shared. but if you want to know who has the most peace between Islam and Catholics,

It is Islam, It is said that their are 12 Steps to Heaven and 12 to Hell each step that you take in life will give you a better chance to reach a higher step in the after life. Same in Buddhism.

you must take your shoes off going into a Muslims house and Church. "I wish people would do that when entering my house. walking in with sh*t at the end of their shoes pi** me off "

Islam is a Religion of peace Sad to say i can not say the same for my Catholic friends. the Bible is one of the most Horrifying books one could read.

I hope you realise there is no actual argument for Islam present in this post except the idea that Muslims remove their shoes more (and throw them at people :pac:.)

You've really just repeated your assertion without showing why it's true.

coffee_cake

I prefer taking my shoes off indoors but that hardly has anything to do with anything?!

Penn

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Based on the last link you posted which turned out to have absolutely nothing to do with Islam how confident are you that this article is completely accurate?

70... maybe 75%

Care to disprove it for me then?

Brown Bomber

Barrington wrote: »

70... maybe 75%

Care to disprove it for me then?

Well this is the BBC article in full

Indonesian Sharia police separate Aceh lesbian couple


Islamic police in the Indonesian province of Aceh have forced two women to have their marriage annulled and sign an agreement to separate.

The women had been legally married for a few months after one of them passed as a man in front of an Islamic cleric who presided over their wedding.

But suspicious neighbours confronted the couple and reported them to police.

The two women are now back with their families, forcibly separated and under surveillance by the Islamic police.

The local Sharia police chief told them Islam said they must be beheaded and burned for what they had done.

But Aceh, the only province in Indonesia that is allowed to implement Sharia law, has yet to adopt any provisions dealing with gay and lesbian people.

The provincial parliament passed Islamic laws authorising the stoning to death of adulterers and the caning of homosexuals in 2009, but the governor has refused to sign it.

Homosexuality is frowned upon but legal in Indonesia.

Activists have blamed Aceh's Sharia laws for encouraging vigilantism and intolerance, and say they violate the Indonesian constitution.

---

This I assume is where the BBC got the story from before they distorted it with an anti-Islamic spin.
http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/home/lesbian-lovers-released-in-aceh-separated/461646

Lesbian Lovers Released in Aceh, Separated

Authorities in Aceh released a married lesbian couple from detention after the lovers agreed not to see each other again.

Nuraini, 21, and her ‘husband’ Rinto, 25, were arrested by the Public Order Officers (Satpol PP) in Southwest Aceh district after it was revealed that Rinto was actually a woman named Rohani. She faked her identity to be able to marry Nuraini.

However, the authorities were clueless as to what charges they should lay against on the couple because lesbianism is not regulated under qanun (Islamic bylaws).

After three days in detention, the couple were released on Wednesday.

Speaking on the phone to the Jakarta Globe, Muddasir, the head of Satpol PP in the district, said that Nuraini and Rohani had been returned to their respective parents.

“They were returned to their parents after they promised not to see each other again. If they violate the agreement, they will be given sanctions according to the customary law [adat],” Muddasir said. However, the agreement did not mention the form of punishment.

“The punishment will be decided later by adat leaders,” he said.

According to Muddasir, some village officials were angry at Rohani but they finally agreed to let her return home.

“I told them not to beat her up because she had promised to repent for her sins,” he said.

Both women signed the agreement witnessed by local officials and religious leaders.

“[Officials and ‘adat’ leaders] had also agreed to keep the women from seeing each other again. They will monitor and guide them,” he said. “Of course they agreed because otherwise they should be beheaded because what they did was strongly forbidden in Islam.”

Previously, Rohani told local media that her marriage to Nuraini had been “annulled” by the Religious Affairs Office in Darul Makmur district.

They were married by an unofficial cleric provided by the district.

“We were married so that we could still live under the same roof but then they found out my real identity,” she said.

Muddasir played down Rohani’s statement about the marriage, claiming it had never been legal.

“How could we divorce them if their marriage was illegal because there are no legal regulations that allow a woman to marry another woman.”

---

This is the BBC article again with the distortions highlighted in red.


Indonesian Sharia police separate Aceh lesbian couple


Islamic police in the Indonesian province of Aceh have forced two women to have their marriage annulled and sign an agreement to separate.
The women had been legally married for a few months after one of them passed as a man in front of an Islamic cleric who presided over their wedding.

But suspicious neighbours confronted the couple and reported them to police.

The two women are now back with their families, forcibly separated and under surveillance by the Islamic police.

The local Sharia police chief told them Islam said they must be beheaded and burned for what they had done.

But Aceh, the only province in Indonesia that is allowed to implement Sharia law, has yet to adopt any provisions dealing with gay and lesbian people.

The provincial parliament passed Islamic laws authorising the stoning to death of adulterers and the caning of homosexuals in 2009, but the governor has refused to sign it.

Homosexuality is frowned upon but legal in Indonesia.

Activists have blamed Aceh's Sharia laws for encouraging vigilantism and intolerance, and say they violate the Indonesian constitution.

---

I'm sure you'll agree that is a lot of innacuracies for such a short article.

BTW - The above mentioned Satpol PP is the Civil Service Police Unit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Service_Police_Unit

MagicMarker

Brown Bomber wrote: »

“I told them not to beat her up because she had promised to repent for her sins,” he said.

“Of course they agreed because otherwise they should be beheaded because what they did was strongly forbidden in Islam.”

So, if she didn't repent then she probably would have been beaten, and if they saw each other again then they'd be beheaded.

Well if that's not peaceful I don't know what is!

SamHarris

MagicMarker wrote: »

So, if she didn't repent then she probably would have been beaten, and if they saw each other again then they'd be beheaded.

Well if that's not peaceful I don't know what is!

Its irrelevant anyway, BB keeps trying to dismiss individual cases. Even if he was succesful in doing so it does not change the broader picture - nearly daily suicide bombings in the name of Islam and laws in various countries suppressing various groups in the name of Islam. These things are undeniable, the frequency and severity of these acts proves to any reasonable person that it is not just "not a religion of peace" it a religion pretty dedicated to violence.

I am no fan of Christianity but it does not take a genious to look at any Christian dominated country and note that today, in the 21 st century it contributes much less to daily violence. Its not even in the same league.

Regardless of how many shooes they wear in church.

Brown Bomber

SamHarris wrote: »

Its irrelevant anyway, BB keeps trying to dismiss individual cases. Even if he was succesful in doing so it does not change the broader picture - nearly daily suicide bombings in the name of Islam and laws in various countries suppressing various groups in the name of Islam. These things are undeniable, the frequency and severity of these acts proves to any reasonable person that it is not just "not a religion of peace" it a religion pretty dedicated to violence.

I am no fan of Christianity but it does not take a genious to look at any Christian dominated country and note that today, in the 21 st century it contributes much less to daily violence. Its not even in the same league.

Regardless of how many shooes they wear in church.

Suicide bombing is not exclusive to Islam but let's take the cases of Islamic suicide bombers.

Hezbollah - 80's
Palestinians - 80's, 90's, 00's
PKK - ?
Iraq - since invasion
Afghanistan - since invasion
Pakistan - since launch of war on terror

Please tell me you can see another connection other than the Islamic one?

Brown Bomber

MagicMarker wrote: »

So, if she didn't repent then she probably would have been beaten, and if they saw each other again then they'd be beheaded.

Well if that's not peaceful I don't know what is!

Yeah but you can't fairly judge on what "probably" would happen, the guy speaking in the article is a civil policeman not a spokesman for Islam.

The reality is that two women were illegally (according to national laws, not just Shariah) married and committed identity fraud and were detained for three days then released unharmed.

The more damning aspect of the ordeal is the fact that two women had to go to such lengths to try and get around such oppressive and freedom inhibiting regulations.

This is not as damning and hysterical as the lies that demonise Islam that Shariah Gestapo are rounding up lesbians and wanting to cut off their heads.

Penn

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Yeah but you can't fairly judge on what "probably" would happen, the guy speaking in the article is a civil policeman not a spokesman for Islam.

The reality is that two women were illegally (according to national laws, not just Shariah) married and committed identity fraud and were detained for three days then released unharmed.

The more damning aspect of the ordeal is the fact that two women had to go to such lengths to try and get around such oppressive and freedom inhibiting regulations.

This is not as damning and hysterical as the lies that demonise Islam that Shariah Gestapo are rounding up lesbians and wanting to cut off their heads.

And the fact that it's even a possibility worth mentioning isn't bad enough? For trying to get around, like you said, an oppressive and freedom inhibiting regulation. The fact that they thought there may be a chance that villagers would beat them up? The fact that village officials had to agree to let one of them go home, for a crime where there was no victim?

SamHarris

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Suicide bombing is not exclusive to Islam but let's take the cases of Islamic suicide bombers.

Hezbollah - 80's
Palestinians - 80's, 90's, 00's
PKK - ?
Iraq - since invasion
Afghanistan - since invasion
Pakistan - since launch of war on terror

Please tell me you can see another connection other than the Islamic one?

Please tell me a comparable situation that has lead to the same frequency and type of attacks following a percieved wrong?

They are not coy about why they do it BB, they often tell everyone why. But Im sure you know better than they themselves. I cant beleive how often I have to have this conversation "Islam had nothing to do with 9.11" Must everyone ignore the fact that they TELL us Islam is a motivation?

You are projecting something awful, "why do *I* think they should be blowing themselves up/ attacking various Western nations - well then that must be the reason." and then you procede to ignore their own justifications. Yes American support for Israel makes them a target etc but the reasons THEY GIVE are religious in nature.

Brown Bomber

SamHarris wrote: »

Please tell me a comparable situation that has lead to the same frequency and type of attacks following a percieved wrong?

The Tamil Tigers against Sri Lanka.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Tigers

SamHarris wrote: »

They are not coy about why they do it BB, they often tell everyone why. But Im sure you know better than they themselves. I cant beleive how often I have to have this conversation "Islam had nothing to do with 9.11" Must everyone ignore the fact that they TELL us Islam is a motivation?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1bm2GPoFfg

Lee Hamilton, vice chair of the 9/11 Commission said, "I'm interested in the question of motivation of these hijackers, and my question is really directed to the agents. ... what have you found out about why these men did what they did? What motivated them to do it?" The agents looked at each other, apparently not eager to be the one to have to say it. FBI Special Agent Fitzgerald stepped up to the plate and laid out the facts, "I believe they feel a sense of outrage against the United States. They identify with the Palestinian problem, they identify with people who oppose repressive regimes and I believe they tend to focus their anger on the United States." But this testimony was kept out of the 9/11 Commission Report and no recommendation was given to address the main motive for the 9/11 attacks.

SamHarris wrote: »

You are projecting something awful, "why do *I* think they should be blowing themselves up/ attacking various Western nations - well then that must be the reason." and then you procede to ignore their own justifications. Yes American support for Israel makes them a target etc but the reasons THEY GIVE are religious in nature.

Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism (2005; ISBN 1-4000-6317-5) is Robert Pape's analysis of suicide terrorism from a strategic, social, and psychological point of view. It is based on a database he has compiled at the University of Chicago, where he directs the Chicago Project on Suicide Terrorism. The book's conclusions are based on data from 315 suicide terrorism campaigns around the world from 1980 through 2003 and 462 individual suicide terrorists.

(...)

Pape claims to have compiled the world's first "database of every suicide bombing and attack around the globe from 1980 through 2003 — 315 attacks in all" (3). "The data show that there is little connection between suicide terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism, or any one of the world's religions. . . . Rather, what nearly all suicide terrorist attacks have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland" (4). It is important that Americans understand this growing phenomenon (4-7)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_to_Win:_The_Strategic_Logic_of_Suicide_Terrorism