''Islam is a religion of peace'' (debate)

deravarra

dlofnep wrote: »

Once again, you do not understand what freedom of speech is. You don't have to agree with the said speech.

Hypothesis time. Let's suppose I attack Muhammad's track record for paedophilia - Do I have the right to do this, even if it offends a muslim? And if I don't - Does the muslim have a right to call for violence against me, or engage in violence against me?

Oh here we go

I might have figured this hoary old chestnut would appear sometime - another array of anti-islamic bashing to throw into the equation.

I thought you might have been inclined to debate - hence the reason I stayed along the way.

But now you have shown how you have no intention to do anything else but attack islam and mohammed, you are not having a debate.

Mohammed was no paedophile, and no matter how many times this myth has been debunked, some fool will drag it up and start it all over again.

Goodnight.

dlofnep

deravarra wrote: »

Oh here we go

I might have figured this hoary old chestnut would appear sometime - another array of anti-islamic bashing to throw into the equation.

I thought you might have been inclined to debate - hence the reason I stayed along the way.

But now you have shown how you have no intention to do anything else but attack islam and mohammed, you are not having a debate.

Mohammed was no paedophile, and no matter how many times this myth has been debunked, some fool will drag it up and start it all over again.

Goodnight.

So, you can't answer my question. Right-o.

deravarra

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

I don't think a lack of context is the problem at all.

So, they were true christians/muslims? did as christians and muslims ought to?

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

No. As I said, Phelps without Christianity is harmless. Bouyeri without Islam is harmless.

As I recall, you did say if it werent christianity or islam, it would have been something else. So is it the person, or the religion? If its the religion, how come so many are not doing what these two did?

deravarra

dlofnep wrote: »

So, you can't answer my question. Right-o.

No, because I am sick of dimwits like you who make an accusation which is unproven, debunked and simply another means to try and attack islam. dont pretend to be interested in debate when it's obvious you arent.

dlofnep

deravarra wrote: »

No, because I am sick of dimwits like you who make an accusation which is unproven, debunked and simply another means to try and attack islam. dont pretend to be interested in debate when it's obvious you arent.

The question was hypothetical. I asked you if I had the right to bring the topic up, regardless if it offends Muslims. And if not - do Muslims have the right to respond with violence?

deravarra

dlofnep wrote: »

The question was hypothetical. I asked you if I had the right to bring the topic up, regardless if it offends Muslims. And if not - do Muslims have the right to respond with violence?

I said nothing should ever beget violence. Do I have to repeat that for every little question you have???

Are you that dim?

you remind me a lot of the guy in this ad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_nHPjiAVns

liamw

Let's take a simpler example. Suppose, deravarra, I had a personal belief that apples were one of God's special creations. By eating an apple, I find it very offensive and I am insulted when someone eats an apple in front of me.

Do you stop eating apples? Is it OK for me to respond with violence if you eat an apple in front of me?

deravarra

liamw wrote: »

Let's take a simpler example. Suppose, deravarra, I had a personal belief that apples were one of God's special creations. By eating an apple, I find it very offensive and I am insulted when someone eats an apple in front of me.

Do you stop eating apples? Is it OK for me to respond with violence if you eat an apple in front of me?

Now you are taking the pee ...

I said "nothing should beget violence" ... that is an absolute. one answer for all your stupid questions

The Mad Hatter

deravarra wrote: »

So, they were true christians/muslims? did as christians and muslims ought to?

Certainly they both see themselves that way, and there seems to be plenty of support for each of them in their religions.

As I recall, you did say if it werent christianity or islam, it would have been something else.

I said no such thing.

So is it the person, or the religion? If its the religion, how come so many are not doing what these two did?

I have already answered this.

Sarky

How do you square "nothing should beget violence" with asserting that someone who gets a beating for insulting the Washington monument had it coming?

liamw

deravarra wrote: »

Now you are taking the pee ...

I said "nothing should beget violence" ... that is an absolute. one answer for all your stupid questions

Changed your tune then...

deravarra wrote: »

With every right there is a responsibility - and with that responsibility to accept the consequences of any action you may undertake which offends others - even if it doesnt offend you.

My question to you is: Why would anyone want to insult God and Muhammad ...?

I'd love to see how you would be treated at the war memorial in washington should you start roaring and shouting obscenities about the brutality of the american regime in the vietnamese conflict - or decide to do the same at the senotaph in london, or the tomb of the unknown soldier in paris...
Let's see how long you would last without getting an almighty beating

Would I stand up for their right to be as beligerent and demeaning to the sensitivities of those who hold those places sacred and dear to them? Absolutely not! Would they deserve whatever action would befall them should they choose to express their "right" to insult? a big YES from me.

This rubbish of having the right to insult is a load of tosh.

Why would anyone want to insult? Do it, and you get what you deserve. If anyone insulted me, my family or showed any disrespect to them, I would do the same. Of course, I would be nice first, and ask them to desist. If they chose to ignore the plea, then they shouldnt go crying foul.

SamHarris

deravarra wrote: »

Now you are taking the pee ...

I said "nothing should beget violence" ... that is an absolute. one answer for all your stupid questions

No you said dozens of times people who are insulting should get what "they desrve".

Is this debate over? Has everyone that is anyway reasonable realised how violent and oppresive Islam routinely is?

Brown Bomber

SamHarris wrote: »

No you said dozens of times people who are insulting should get what "they desrve".

Is this debate over? Has everyone that is anyway reasonable realised how violent and oppresive Islam routinely is?

Such a shame that there is a eloquent and informed Muslim woman present here for you to actually learn about Islam from and cure yourselves of your ignorance, which would result in fewer innocent Muslims being attacked and abused on our streets and all anyone seems interested in is slinging the usual right-wing, Islamaphobic generalisations.

SamHarris

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Such a shame that there is a eloquent and informed Muslim woman present here for you to actually learn about Islam from and cure yourselves of your ignorance, which would result in fewer innocent Muslims being attacked and abused on our streets and all anyone seems interested in is slinging the usual right-wing, Islamaphobic generalisations.

Eloquent and informed that cant grasp a basic concept like freedom of speech? Her profound understanding terrifies me.

Im afraid BB she couldnt try harder to be a caricutare of the type of people that make up the bulk of Muslims, enablers for the smaller (but still unsettling large) number that take part in direct violence.

SamHarris

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Such a shame that there is a eloquent and informed Muslim woman present here for you to actually learn about Islam from and cure yourselves of your ignorance, which would result in fewer innocent Muslims being attacked and abused on our streets and all anyone seems interested in is slinging the usual right-wing, Islamaphobic generalisations.

And has repeatdely endorsed ANY punishment for someone that "insults" her? Yes, that will show those damn Islamophobes :rolleyes:

Brown Bomber

SamHarris wrote: »

Eloquent and informed that cant grasp a basic concept like freedom of speech? Her profound understanding terrifies me.

Im afraid BB she couldnt try harder to be a caricutare of the type of people that make up the bulk of Muslims, enablers for the smaller (but still unsettling large) number that take part in direct violence.

What you've just posted is once again and as per usual unsupported, ignorant drivel.

What is your solution to this direct threat of the Mooslims to out very lives?

Should we round them up and put them in labour camps or deport them?

Forced conversion?

Close our borders?

Bomb a "enabler" government building and then travel over to an island and massacre scores of native "enablers"

Brown Bomber

SamHarris wrote: »

And has repeatdely endorsed ANY punishment for someone that "insults" her? Yes, that will show those damn Islamophobes :rolleyes:

Are you interested in actually learning about Islam from somewhere other than Jihadwatch? If so now's the opportunity.

Standman

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Are you interested in actually learning about Islam from somewhere other than Jihadwatch? If so now's the opportunity.

I was actually interested in discussing this for the purpose of learning as opposed to just winning a debating match when I originally came to post in this thread, but you and some other posters who seem to have an bit of a chip on the shoulder have made it very hard.

SamHarris

Brown Bomber wrote: »

What you've just posted is once again and as per usual unsupported, ignorant drivel.

What is your solution to this direct threat of the Mooslims to out very lives?

Should we round them up and put them in labour camps or deport them?

Forced conversion?

Close our borders?

Bomb a "enabler" government building and then travel over to an island and massacre scores of native "enablers"

Or discuss it in a rational manner. Something you are clearly incapable of. Why dont you go back to looking for Jews under your bed?

SamHarris

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Are you interested in actually learning about Islam from somewhere other than Jihadwatch? If so now's the opportunity.

Do I want to learn about Islam from an anonymous lady on the internet? No not particularly.

Would I like to see a valid defence of the actions of Islamists that doesnt involve "Stop insulting us, or else!"? Sure do.

Do I want to stop being talked at by our resident consiparcy theorist and Jew Expert? Most certainly.

SamHarris

deravarra wrote: »

So, they were true christians/muslims? did as christians and muslims ought to?



As I recall, you did say if it werent christianity or islam, it would have been something else. So is it the person, or the religion? If its the religion, how come so many are not doing what these two did?

Why are you so sure that your interpretation of Islam is "right" and people who blow themselves up on a bus is "wrong"?

It *is* the religion, just like it is occasionally the catalyst for charity, however the routine nature of Islamic violence means it cannot be dismissed as some far and away "out there" view - like Phelps.

Brown Bomber

SamHarris wrote: »

Do I want to learn about Islam from an anonymous lady on the internet? No not particularly.

Would I like to see a valid defence of the actions of Islamists that doesnt involve "Stop insulting us, or else!"? Sure do.

Do I want to stop being talked at by our resident consiparcy theorist and Jew Expert? Most certainly.

Listen mate, if being a conspiracy theorist is having irrational beliefs despite any and all evidence you tick all the boxes with your scary Moooslims conspiracy theory.

You didn't answer the question. What is the Harris final solution to the Muslim problem?

Anders Breivik also was a follower of your conspiracy theory and just like you talked about "enablers"

3.77 A request to the Police Forces (system protectors) of Western EuropeRegarding
Phase 1
We know that more than 60% of the police officers in Europe sympathise with our causeand that even more, around 90%, empathise with it. Our cause being “striking” theenablers that are currently facilitating the Islamic colonization of our countries.Know this; we do not wish to put you at risk or cause harm to you in any way. Weconsider you as brothers and sisters who are unfortunate enough to have chosen to servethe “enablers”, the Multiculturalist Alliance, our government and the constitution

What's your opinion on "cultural marxists"?

SamHarris

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Listen mate, if being a conspiracy theorist is having irrational beliefs despite any and all evidence you tick all the boxes with your scary Moooslims conspiracy theory.

You didn't answer the question. What is the Harris final solution to the Muslim problem?

Anders Breivik also was a follower of your conspiracy theory and just like you talked about "enablers"



What's your opinion on "cultural marxists"?

Oh no your on to me! The next logical step to me discussing the violent streak in Islam was internement camps for all Muslims! Wow your quick.

You better get the word out ... Wait! Behind you! BB It's a JEW! :eek:




You dont believe there is enough evidence 9 11 was commited by Al Qaeda, Im not surprised the list of groups inspired by Islam can be so easily ignored by you as "no evidence of violence in Islam"


Leave me alone now, youve stopped being reasonable a long time ago.

Brown Bomber

Standman wrote: »

I was actually interested in discussing this for the purpose of learning as opposed to just winning a debating match when I originally came to post in this thread, but you and some other posters who seem to have an bit of a chip on the shoulder have made it very hard.

I apologise but I don't fully understand. Who could I have a chip on my shoulder against? People that IMO are spreading hate?

Would you prefer an echo chamber like Stormfront were everyone spoke in one voice posting verses taken out of context, posting innacurate anti-Islamic news reports and stating opinions as facts such as "Muslims are more likely to rape?" and instead of it being corrected or challenged it's backslapping all round?

Brown Bomber

SamHarris wrote: »

Oh no your on to me! The next logical step to me discussing the violent streak in Islam was internement camps for all Muslims! Wow your quick.

You better get the word out ... Wait! Behind you! BB It's a JEW! :eek:




You dont believe there is enough evidence 9 11 was commited by Al Qaeda, Im not surprised the list of groups inspired by Islam can be so easily ignored by you as "no evidence of violence in Islam"


Leave me alone now, youve stopped being reasonable a long time ago.

So like everything else your going to back away and get stroppy when challenged.

What's your solution to the Muslim problem?

... and why are you afraid to answer?

Wibbs

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Such a shame that there is a eloquent and informed Muslim woman present here for you to actually learn about Islam from and cure yourselves of your ignorance,

Oh c'mon B, handwringing much?

which would result in fewer innocent Muslims being attacked and abused on our streets and all anyone seems interested in is slinging the usual right-wing, Islamaphobic generalisations.

Can you give me examples of Muslims being attacked on the street or are you just the other side of the hyperbole highway evident in this thread. You can accuse me of ignorance all you like BB, but I'd place a hefty bet I've read more of the Islamic texts and have read more of the arguments outside of the polar opposites in defence of both positions than you.

deravarra wrote: »

But now you have shown how you have no intention to do anything else but attack islam and mohammed, you are not having a debate.

The problem all too often found with the religious of any ilk is that any debate is seen as an attack. Right wing Chirstians and Muslims in general(sad to lump them together) are very prone to this. And I've seen this with the latter group long before 911 and right wing american media twats spouting shíte.

Mohammed was no paedophile, and no matter how many times this myth has been debunked, some fool will drag it up and start it all over again.

Do I think he was a paedophile? Nope. Do I think he made choices that the modern more informed mind would consider unusual at best? Yes. The facts in this case according to the Islamic texts themselves is that he married someone we would consider a young girl today(barely in her teens if even that). The two usual explanations trotted out are a) girls matured faster then which is seriously debatable. Indeed girls today are maturing physically much faster than any time in human history(age of first menses) and b) they got the dates wrong and she was actually much older. Well a teenager anyway. Even if she was such, he was still a middle aged man. Plus the very earliest Islamic texts and those for centuries afterwards don't have any issue with her early age and continued the practice of very young girls with older men they'd know better being closer to the time. No I don't think he was a paedophile, that's too easy an answer and accusation. It's not that long ago that Europe saw child brides. NOt too long ago at all. Jerry Lee Lewis in the 50's got hammered when he arrived in the UK for a tour with his barely 14 year old wife(he was 24) who was also his cousin. Something legally and morally sanctioned by his local good ole boy state and religious Christian ministry(his cousin was Jerry Falwell, nuf said) but I do question that Mohammed's decisions can be applicable to all times and to a more knowledgeable morality. Clearly morality in this has moved on and is more advanced than his time and worldview. You would think God would have allowed for this? Ditto wth slavery, ditto with aggressive "defence".

SamHarris

Brown Bomber wrote: »

So like everything else your going to back away and get stroppy when challenged.

What's your solution to the Muslim problem?

... and why are you afraid to answer?

Its because my solution is rather extreme and once I let the cat out of the bag my friends in MJ 12, the Freemasons and United Jews will look none too kindly on me...

Seriously where the hell did you get that I had a "solution to the Muslim problem"? Your starting to confuse yourself - you were the only one to mention any "final solution". How embarrasing for you.

Like I said Im done talking to you, your not debating at all, you have failed to stick to single point for more than one post and you conisistanly ignore evidence when it disagrees with your opinion.

One more time, we are done. If I had read your history before I wouldnt have even bothered replying to begin with...

Brown Bomber

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh c'mon B, handwringing much? Can you give me examples of Muslims being attacked on the street or are you just the other side of the hyperbole highway evident in this thread. You can accuse me of ignorance all you like BB, but I'd place a hefty bet I've read more of the Islamic texts and have read more of the arguments outside of the polar opposites in defence of both positions than you.

First point is that I certainly don't think that your ignorant at all. In fact I'd go as far to say that your the least ignorant person I've had the pleasure to deal with in all my time on boards. And you'd win that bet btw

As for examples this very important study which focuses on London clearly links the fearmongering Islamaphobic news reports with actual cases of anti-Islamic hate crimes.
http://centres.exeter.ac.uk/emrc/publications/Islamophobia_and_Anti-Muslim_Hate_Crime.pdf

SamHarris

Brown Bomber wrote: »

First point is that I certainly don't think that your ignorant at all. In fact I'd go as far to say that your the least ignorant person I've had the pleasure to deal with in all my time on boards. And you'd win that bet btw

As for examples this very important study which focuses on London clearly links the fearmongering Islamaphobic news reports with actual cases of anti-Islamic hate crimes.
http://centres.exeter.ac.uk/emrc/publications/Islamophobia_and_Anti-Muslim_Hate_Crime.pdf

I never said anyone should be hurt physically, I am merely discussing the causes and effects of violence in Muslim communities. I seriously doubt anyone who read these posts is going to go out and burn a mosque...

Brown Bomber

SamHarris wrote: »

Its because my solution is rather extreme and once I let the cat out of the bag my friends in MJ 12, the Freemasons and United Jews will look none too kindly on me...

Seriously where the hell did you get that I had a "solution to the Muslim problem"? Your starting to confuse yourself - you were the only one to mention any "final solution". How embarrasing for you.

Like I said Im done talking to you, your not debating at all, you have failed to stick to single point for more than one post and you conisistanly ignore evidence when it disagrees with your opinion.

One more time, we are done. If I had read your history before I wouldnt have even bothered replying to begin with...

So your afraid to publically state what you'd like to be seen done to Muslims to protect non-Muslims?

Don't worry, your silence speaks volumes.

You can go back to putting your head in the sand now.