Conscription to get the dole

donutface

This probably wont work so well for us as we're a neutral country but could work great for the UK and their undisciplined chavs burning shops down.


What would you think about the idea that you have to do at least 2 years conscription (military or civil service) before being allowed to claim social welfare. I've got a few friends on social welfare already, and I know that they'd much rather find a job than be in the army, but they'd rather draw dole than work for a living.

Conscription itself seems to be working grand in mainland Europe, and they're not nearly as blood thirsty as what some people would like those policies out to be.

Samich

Why do normal people (peasants) think they have the solution to all the worlds problems.

amacca

Samich wrote: »

Why do normal people (peasants) think they have the solution to all the worlds problems.

why do abnormal people think they don't?

snubbleste

Hundreds of thousands of army deafness claims then or even more civil servants..
Submit your idea to the taoiseach OP

tsoparno

Samich wrote: »

Why do normal people (peasants) think they have the solution to all the worlds problems.

cause the educated certainly don't:D

Biggins

More to the point, why yet another dole thread?

RichieC

Samich wrote: »

Why do normal people (peasants) think they have the solution to all the worlds problems.

How do you know donut face is a peasant?

Samich

amacca wrote: »

why do abnormal people think they don't?

Eh the ministers or whatever don't actually decide what happens in this country. They put forward the idea and it's the actual professionals who are experts in their profession who decide if it's viable or not.

stevenmu

Samich wrote: »

Why do normal people (peasants) think they have the solution to all the worlds problems.

I blame the illusion of liberty we decided to allow them. I knew that would be a mistake.

Absurdum

Biggins wrote: »

More to the point, why yet another dole thread?

nothing better to do I suppose

donutface

Biggins wrote: »

More to the point, why yet another dole thread?

Because we do not have a section on boards.ie dedicated to bitching about social welfare. Why not get active and create one instead of just complaining about it :-)

phasers

Bagsie being one of the guys with a horse

mikemac

The defence forces are professionals and volunteers and have their own work to do

They are not a babysitting service for undisciplined skangers who don't want to be there

Biggins

donutface wrote: »

Because we do not have a section on boards.ie dedicated to bitching about social welfare. Why not get active and create one instead of just complaining about it :-)

There's me thinking we have a ranting and raving section besides a social welfare section.
O' well...

Witcher

Teach scummers how to use an array of weapons...that'll surely turn them into model citizens:rolleyes:

4zn76tysfajdxp

phasers wrote: »

Bagsie being one of the guys with a horse

Like Mulan?

amacca

Blay wrote: »

Teach scummers how to use an array of weapons...that'll surely turn them into model citizens:rolleyes:

Dont worry if they are proper scummers they will refuse to learn anything.

donutface

Biggins wrote: »

There's me thinking we have a ranting and raving section besides a social welfare section.
O' well...

The post is not a rant and I don't feel it to be appropriate to put inside the state benefits section. Maybe a mod can move it there if I'm wrong.

amacca

Samich wrote: »

Eh the ministers or whatever don't actually decide what happens in this country. They put forward the idea and it's the actual professionals who are experts in their profession who decide if it's viable or not.

exactly....and hows that been working out?

good old experts and professionals....they know what they are doing and they are doing it for the good of all no doubt!

Morlar

I think a period of national service could be a good thing.

So long as it's structured, teaches marketable skills (leadership, task management, discipline and so on).

It'd also have to be equitable & would have to apply across the boards to all socio economic groups with no 'get out' clauses for the wealthy. Those factors aside I think it could be a positive idea.

Biggins

donutface wrote: »

The post is not a rant and I don't feel it to be appropriate to put inside the state benefits section. Maybe a mod can move it there if I'm wrong.

Its a fair thought- to be fair to you - and this country needs thinkers thinking outside the box.
Not every idea is going to shine but sooner or later, someone finds a right one.

(Dole threads sadly seem to keep coming up here week in week out. I don't think in the last three years, we've ever had a full week without one.)

mattjack

phasers wrote: »

Bagsie being one of the guys with a horse

can I use my own horse..?.......and do I get a sword..?

Logical Fallacy

Biggins wrote: »

More to the point, why yet another dole thread?

Because it's very important to let people know you are NOT on the dole.

Samich

amacca wrote: »

exactly....and hows that been working out?

good old experts and professionals....they know what they are doing and they are doing it for the good of all no doubt!

Yes, glad you agreed with me.

Biggins

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Because it's very important to let people know you are NOT on the dole.

To be honest, if people are going to judge you just because you might be unemployed, their qualities in judging people accurately leave something to be desired.

I don't care if your unemployed or not - if your a decent person, come the hell in and have a cup of tea!

ScumLord

Morlar wrote: »

I think a period of national service could be a good thing

There's no reason why national service should be military either, we don't need soldiers but we could do with people trained in emergency relief simple cleaning, or any amount of projects. If we did have a service that operated the same way as the military in that it's physical training, education and instilling a daily routine into people that could then go out and be of service to their communities it would serve us much better than any punishment system as we have at the moment with our prisons.

Catching first time offenders and pulling them into a beneficial social circle could really put a stop to anti social behaviour. At the moment we just alienate them so they more than likely will reoffend.

Rebel021

Trained Chav's

Let me think about it..........................

Joshua Jones

Real issues

---

>deflect attention

---

>dole scroungers

rabble rabble

/thread

Morlar

ScumLord wrote: »

There's no reason why national service should be military either, we don't need soldiers but we could do with people trained in emergency relief simple cleaning, or any amount of projects.

Are there reasons why the military would not be best suited for this function ? Given their longstanding traditions and ability to take in youths and instill a sense of discipline and so on ? The 'military' have a vast range of expertise in all sorts of fields. The point of the exercise in my view would not be to churn out soldiers. It would be National Service, which could include time working on rejuvenation projects as well as leaning marketable skills and so on.

twinQuins

Biggins wrote: »

There's me thinking we have a ranting and raving section besides a social welfare section.
O' well...

From the State Benefits charter:

5. This is not a forum for critiscizing Government Departments or Semi-State Bodies.

5a - 5 includes the policies of the Government Departments of Semi-State Bodies

6 - There is Zero Tolerance for posters being critical of those on benefits either individual posters or benefit claimants as a group.

Also R&R doesn't allow political rants.

Biggins

twinQuins wrote: »

...R&R doesn't allow political rants.

Would dole subjects be considered a political one?

ScumLord

Morlar wrote: »

Are there reasons why the military would not be best suited for this function ? Given their longstanding traditions and ability to take in youths and instill a sense of discipline and so on ? The 'military' have a vast range of expertise in all sorts of fields. The point of the exercise in my view would not be to churn out soldiers. It would be National Service, which could include time working on rejuvenation projects as well as leaning marketable skills and so on.

The whole military training is what these young (male) offenders would benefit from but I think there would be all sorts of problems if it was actually linked to the military.

I suppose the scouts is the closest thing to what we're talking about. The scouts for adults ran by ex military drill Sargents and operated under the tidy towns or some such agency.

phasers

Winston Gentle Vacancy wrote: »

Like Mulan?

Yeah, except I won't get found out. Stupid woman.

twinQuins

Biggins wrote: »

Would dole subjects be considered a political one?

It... might, technically it's political (even if the "discussions" can veer into sociology). Even so I doubt the mods would allow such a contentious topic, which is the point of no religion and no politics.

Biggins

twinQuins wrote: »

It... might, technically it's political (even if the "discussions" can veer into sociology). Even so I doubt the mods would allow such a contentious topic, which is the point of no religion and no politics.

Aaa well... its a good question for the mods of that section.

Mike 1972

donutface wrote: »

What would you think about the idea that you have to do at least 2 years conscription (military or civil service) before being allowed to claim social welfare..

Is paying National insurance/Whatever the fup they call PRSI in the Republic now not enough FFS

donutface wrote: »

Conscription itself seems to be working grand in mainland Europe.

Yup its working so well that several European countries have done away with it

FGR

Something similar to what's already been suggested.

Do a civic duty such as instead of having a council house be put up in a barracks and at 4am every morning be hunted out the door to clean up the streets after everyone boozing the night before.

That'll teach them to appreciate society a bit more.

Daniel S

I think we should send them abroad, you know... "Drop 'em in the deep end". I'm sure the Lebonese and Chadian militants will give them plenty of encouragement to learn to become decent soldiers.

Or we could copy Germany and create an alternative to conscription where you help the elderly or generally help the community.

4zn76tysfajdxp

phasers wrote: »

Yeah, except I won't get found out. Stupid woman.

Kind of why women shouldn't be in the army.

Chips Lovell

Sure. At a time when other European countries are phasing it out, let's phase it in.

Lord TSC

You know what would make violent thugs from poverty stricken areas better? Military training! Yeah!

amacca

mtb_kng wrote: »

Or we could copy Germany and create an alternative to conscription where you help the elderly or generally help the community.

eh no thanks if its one to one help in the home

what did you do today in community service Anto?

well Ray...today I found out that mrs jones keeps two grand in a jug on the dresser, mr smith doesnt know how to use his panic button and mrs o'toole who suffers from dementia will tell you bank a/c numbers + access codes with the right kind of persuasion and I still dont know what a tracker mortgage/bedpan/kettle is!

community service yes....helping out up close and personal even in a retirement home not so much

lawhec

Morlar wrote: »

Are there reasons why the military would not be best suited for this function ? Given their longstanding traditions and ability to take in youths and instill a sense of discipline and so on ? The 'military' have a vast range of expertise in all sorts of fields. The point of the exercise in my view would not be to churn out soldiers. It would be National Service, which could include time working on rejuvenation projects as well as leaning marketable skills and so on.

The British Army generals weren't that fond of conscripts in the 50's and 60's. For them they were a waste of time and a distraction from organising and training voluntary, professional soldiers.

Also most European countries since the end of the cold war have either totally abolished, planned to abolish conscription or reduced the numbers being called up. Even Switzerland with its traditions has a smaller standing army that what it had in the past.

Finally I agree with what someone else wrote, you want to give those people who have been rioting and looting earlier this week training in armed combat? :eek:

galah

last time I checked, the conscripted national service in some European countries was just a good excuse to drink beer, watch porn for 10 months, and chat up the female indigenous population of whatever crappy town you happen to end up at. Completely pointless, and people who have gone through it even admitted as much.

However, I would agree that some time spent in disaster training would be good. Or in a social caring environment (a lot of jobs in the German alternative to military service (also compulsory, it's either or unless you have a VERY good excuse) are in hospitals, nursing homes, that sort of thing. Might not be a bad idea for today's youth to learn a few skills that way (supervised, obviously).

lawhec

galah wrote: »

last time I checked, the conscripted national service in some European countries was just a good excuse to drink beer, watch porn for 10 months, and chat up the female indigenious population of whatever crappy town you happen to end up at. Completely pointless, and people who have gone through it even admitted as much.

However, I would agree that some time spent in disaster training would be good. Or in a social caring environment (a lot of jobs in the German alternative to military service (also compulsory, it's either or unless you have a VERY good excuse) are in hospitals, nursing homes, that sort of thing. Might not be a bad idea for today's youth to learn a few skills that way (supervised, obviously).

Conscription in Germany ended last month if I'm right.

ScumLord

lawhec wrote: »

The British Army generals weren't that fond of conscripts in the 50's and 60's. For them they were a waste of time and a distraction from organising and training voluntary, professional soldiers.

Also most European countries since the end of the cold war have either totally abolished, planned to abolish conscription or reduced the numbers being called up. Even Switzerland with its traditions has a smaller standing army that what it had in the past.

Finally I agree with what someone else wrote, you want to give those people who have been rioting and looting earlier this week training in armed combat? :eek:

You've clearly skipped over a few posts along the way, military style training, not military training.

galah

lawhec wrote: »

Conscription in Germany ended last month if I'm right.

did it? fair enough, just goes to show how much attention I pay to what's happening over there...:D cheers

Knasher

Cut their dole a bit and issue food stamps to make up the difference. However only allow the food stamps to be used to buy really fatty foods.

Couple of years down the road and we won't have to worry about them running around and causing hassle any more.:pac:

tricky D

So scummers, violent thugs, undisciplined skangers, scroungers, and other dehumanised descriptions are the only people on the dole by the sounds of AH. Nevermind the vast majority, of various social classes and nationalities, who worked hard, paid small fortunes in PRSI and other taxes and lost their jobs through little or no fault of their own.

Carry on.

donutface

tricky D wrote: »

So scummers, violent thugs, undisciplined skangers, scroungers, and other dehumanised descriptions are the only people on the dole by the sounds of AH. Nevermind the vast majority, of various social classes and nationalities, who worked hard, paid small fortunes in PRSI and other taxes and lost their jobs through little or no fault of their own.

Carry on.

Nobody mentioned anything about withholding dole - and my own idea was just to add a small deterrent for going on it. Many people on social welfare have never paid PRSI in their life.

Its very interesting news regarding Germany, I havent heard that they abolished conscription at all. This is slightly different though as it wouldn't be compulsory for everyone - just those who want to claim government benefits because of the lack of work.

Even if it was military training itself, it doesn't mean that thugs could become better equipped killers. My dad had to go through conscription and admits that many people come out far better people than going in. Shooting a gun doesn't exactly require training - a child could do it (and they do).

I would agree though, actual military training would not be the solution, but something that would instill discipline and hard work like what the army would could be a great idea. The skangers who don't want to be there won't have to be there anyway and army's have all sorts of clever punishments for those who do not feel like cooperating.

Mike 1972

donutface wrote: »

Many people on social welfare have never paid PRSI in their life..

But in the current climate its likely that the majority have. Odd thing is a few years back when the reverse would have been the case threads on AH inciting hatred towards welfare recipients were pretty rare. Now they are almost a daily occurrence.

donutface wrote: »

This is slightly different though as it wouldn't be compulsory for everyone - just those who want to claim government benefits because of the lack of work.

How many people out there will never spend a day unemployed from the day they leave full time education to the day they retire ? Not too many Id wager. Even during a boom/bubble people get laid off and may take a few weeks to find something else.