When working with different nationalities

Ray Palmer

I work with quite a few different nationalities and am quite liberal on my view. Not a PC nut and quite accepting of offensive jokes. However when working with some people their views on religion and sexuality are quite extreme. The suggestion that it is OK to be gay really grates with one or two. In particular one stated it was simply wrong because the bible says so. I laughed out loud because I thought he was joking.

He now has taken offense to my views on the bible and generally that religion it should not dictate anything in this country. It has gotten a little tense as a result but other people in work have basically agreed with his views on gay people. There is certainly a link to their nationalities and their views. One guy actually said he would leave if the company hired somebody who was gay.

Some said in the pub and others over lunch in the office. I really am coming down with the view that if you come to this country you should accept our ways which sounds like a bigoted view. It doesn't really affect me but one guys knows my brother is gay but luckily he is not of the group that think it is wrong. I can't make mention to my brother's sexuality which you think generally wouldn't come up but it actually does more than you think when you talk of your family.

Nodin

Yes, there was no homophobia here before foriegners.

chin_grin

FFS people, stop bringing up where you're from just because a person acts like a cnut. It's up to the individual!

CardBordWindow

In my opinion, religion is like a penis. It's alright to have one and be proud of it, but don't force it on people!!

chin_grin

CardBordWindow wrote: »

In my opinion, religion is like a penis. It's alright to have one and be proud of it, but don't force it on people!!

Or ram it down kids throats. :pac:

FatherLen

how does the old saying go?
the bible is like a software terms and conditions.
most dont read it, just scroll to the bottom and click agree.

Kold

[x] National stereotypes
[x] Homophobia
[x] Religion

There be a sh!tstorm a'brewin...

Dardania

Certain countries are less liberal than ours. In particular, ex communist countries can be quite right wing, as it is the natural order to form after release from communism to have a swing to the right...

Also, when they no longer have communism doing the thinking for them, they easily switch to lettin ghte church fill that void...

you're right on the when in rome point, however be aware that it works both ways - don't expect your views to be well received elsewhere if it's not the norm.

Richard Hillman

Nodin wrote: »

Yes, there was no homophobia here before foriegners.

It was when the Greeks came here first, thats when it all went downhill.

wonton

I wonder how they'll feel about having a gay president

jester77

wonton wrote: »

I wonder how they'll feel about having a gay president

Gay by name or gay by nature?

DingChavez

I like how people use the bible to justify things they're against while they completely ignore all the other orders that seem crazy nowadays.

stovelid

I would never discuss stuff like religion and politics in work.

7sr2z3fely84g5

they used to always ask,why do the irish drink so much.

Ray Palmer

Nodin wrote: »

Yes, there was no homophobia here before foriegners.

The things is people have enough sense not to say it if they are from a more liberal country and working in an office. This is not the first time I have experienced this from particular nationalities. Some of these people come from places where it is not accepted. Plenty of Irish homophobes but they aren't going to yell out how they see as disgusting and should end up with the person in prison

I didn't bring up religion it was the view of a guy in the office. All very well saying never discuss politics are religion in work but in a social conversation it crops up.

To suggest that everything is individual completely misses the point of the problem where if it has been acceptable in somebody's home country how you politely tell them that such views are not acceptable here. I am not blaming. Obviously don't want HR involved and make a big deal but there is a lot of aggression coming out about it. Effectively disgust from people on both sides about the others views

stovelid

Madalynn Gigantic Racism wrote: »

they used to always ask,why do the irish drink so much.

Stock answer:

To help us cope with the daily chore of working with dour, judgmental cunts like yourself.

The King of Moo

I'd put that down to religion much more than nationality.
In some African countries, for example, a quite evangelical form of Christianity, putting a lot of emphasis on things like homosexuality being a sin and other fundamentalist beliefs, has taken hold.
You can probably put that down to the zeal of the European missionaries who preached there, and the fact that poverty maybe made people more attracted to religion as a (false) way out.

But I think we'd be lying to ourselves if we thought that couldn't happen here. The Church had such control here that if they had made a big deal out of homosexuality being a sin here then you'd see a lot of people openly condemning gay people as sinners.

And you say people coming here should align themselves with our point of view, but I'm sure there's lots of Irish people out there who aren't too fond of gay people.

StephenHendry

never a good idea OP to start a conversation with either politics or religion

RichieC

What's their views on mixing linen with wool?

Nodin

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The things is people have enough sense not to say it if they are from a more liberal country and working in an office. This is not the first time I have experienced this from particular nationalities. Some of these people come from places where it is not accepted. Plenty of Irish homophobes but they aren't going to yell out how they see as disgusting and should end up with the person in prison

......in your experience. In mine it would have been rather different. While the country has certainly become much more progessive in the last few decades, I'd say your view is rather rosy.

wild_cat

stovelid wrote: »

I would never discuss stuff like religion and politics in work.

I had to once about two years ago.


It was to ask someone to stop calling people black people "n*ggers".

The south African then called him a thick ****.

Ray Palmer

StephenHendry wrote: »

never a good idea OP to start a conversation with either politics or religion

I didn't.

Ray Palmer

Nodin wrote: »

......in your experience. In mine it would have been rather different. While the country has certainly become much more progessive in the last few decades, I'd say your view is rather rosy.

I am fully aware of how Irish people behaved, in an IT office nobody who was raised in a western country would say something like that in front of a lot of people. Having a gay brother and gay friends I am sure I have a fair idea about what people have said.

On a factory floor it is massively different also on the streets. In an IT office it is shocking.

Nodin

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I am fully aware of how Irish people behaved, in an IT office nobody who was raised in a western country would say something like that in front of a lot of people.
.

I'd have to say that outside of a unionised enviroment, it depends on the culture of the "chief". Most of what I've had the misfortune to witness (over 20 years in an office enviroment) would be sexism and racism, but there was certainly the odd homophobic outburst, and nothing thought of it.

Lollipops23

OP to be honest, unless your workmates are actually going out their way to belittle or discriminate you or a co-worker because of your differing views, leave it be.
Some people will have different opinions to yours, right or wrong, and you just have to make your peace with it. I've worked with religious types in the past and had enough cop on not to go down the road of discussing sexuality/abortion etc as I had a feeling which way the wind was blowing.
Try to stick to mundane topics in future maybe when out with work mates?

Ray Palmer

Nodin wrote: »

I'd have to say that outside of a unionised enviroment, it depends on the culture of the "chief". Most of what I've had the misfortune to witness (over 20 years in an office enviroment) would be sexism and racism, but there was certainly the odd homophobic outburst, and nothing thought of it.

19 years in offices and a lot of them over time as a contractor very rare to hear anything blatant especially without a reprimand or apology. The biggest I would say I saw was ageism. This is different because it is so blatant and certain people have basically grouped together and it is causing problems. First time I ever saw this with a righteousness rather than a personal view. It is wrong because of the bible is one hell of a repeated statement.

LJD10

It has gotten a little tense as a result but other people in work have basically agreed with his views on gay people. There is certainly a link to their nationalities and their views. One guy actually said he would leave if the company hired somebody who was gay

.

Sounds like a great team of people to be working with :eek:

On a factory floor it is massively different also on the streets. In an IT office it is shocking.

In any office this is shocking behaviour.

later12

Ray Palmer wrote: »

To suggest that everything is individual completely misses the point of the problem where if it has been acceptable in somebody's home country how you politely tell them that such views are not acceptable here.

Say what now?

(1) Don't you think there are some Irish-born individuals who would share their view?
(2) Just because you were born here, you don't get to say what's 'unacceptable' here. This is a more serious point, in my opinion. We live in a free democracy - there is no such thing as ''an unacceptable view'' beyond common, Daily Mail rhetoric. There are many different points of view held on this little island, you don't get to say which ones are or are not OK to hold.

Lollipops23

later10 wrote: »

There are many different points of view held on this little island, you don't get to say which ones are or are not OK to hold.

A fine point. We have plenty of biggots all of our very own, so you can't say you speak for Ireland.

RichieC

later10 wrote: »

(2) Just because you were born here, you don't get to say what's 'unacceptable' here. This is a more serious point, in my opinion. We live in a free democracy - there is no such thing as ''an unacceptable view'' beyond common, Daily Mail rhetoric. There are many different points of view held on this little island, you don't get to say which ones are or are not OK to hold.

With the sheer amount of heads that will disagree with you about this one must wonder just how long it will be a free democracy for.

the PTB can and if history proves anything will take advantage of sharp turns to the far right.

CucaFace

Ray Palmer one thing that I don't get is why haven't you told more in your office that your brother is gay? My brother is Gay and I couldn't care less who knows because if they can't accept that then that says everything about them really in this day and age.

I say **** them and let it be known and sit back and enjoy all the drama from the Neanderthals that seem to be working in your office.

Ray Palmer

later10 wrote: »

Say what now?

(1) Don't you think there are some Irish-born individuals who would share their view?
(2) Just because you were born here, you don't get to say what's 'unacceptable' here. This is a more serious point, in my opinion. We live in a free democracy - there is no such thing as ''an unacceptable view'' beyond common, Daily Mail rhetoric. There are many different points of view held on this little island, you don't get to say which ones are or are not OK to hold.

1) I don't think any would be so stupid to express their view so loudly and blatantly because they are fully aware such behaviour is not socially acceptable. Certainly not acceptable in a work environment.
2) The Irish law is a huge factor and being from here I know what is socially acceptable. This is not socially acceptable behaviour in Ireland. Do you think it is?

It is not acceptable to express all your views

How would you feel if somebody suggest your friends and family are scum of the lowest kind? They could be fired over this if I made a fuss.

Ray Palmer

CucaFace wrote: »

Ray Palmer one thing that I don't get is why haven't you told more in your office that your brother is gay? My brother is Gay and I couldn't care less who knows because if they can't accept that then that says everything about them really in this day and age.

I say **** them and let it be known and sit back and enjoy all the drama from the Neanderthals that seem to be working in your office.

I could care less if they know, I don't go around telling everybody my family details. If they aren't naturally going to stop I am not going to get into what is "wrong" with my brother in their eyes. Why would I want to share any personal details with a person who starts going on about how my friends and family are scum because of their sexual orientation?

Cee-Jay-Cee

I think that you should bring up the fact that your brother is gay and that you have gay friends, those that think its wrong can think that if they wish, however they have no right to criticise you or anyone else over it. They are not in their home countries, theyre in this country and if they dont like it then no one is asking them to stay. I would involve HR over it, part of the problem in this country is that everyone is afraid of offending minority ethnic groups yet those groups couldnt care less about your views and seem to think their religious/social views are perfectly acceptable to everyone else. I would inform HRM that their homophobic moronic opinions are unacceptable to you, just like they would be the first to bleat on about something if it were unacceptable to them. Why sit back and let someone who is from another country dictate how you act and behave in your own country???

CucaFace

Well Ray maybe if you tell them you could perhaps actually change their perspective on the matter.

A lot of these people's opinions are born out of ignorance and an irrational fear, and who knows if you could get some of them them thinking in a different way.

Nodin

Ray Palmer wrote: »

19 years in offices and a lot of them over time as a contractor very rare to hear anything blatant especially without a reprimand or apology. The biggest I would say I saw was ageism. This is different because it is so blatant and certain people have basically grouped together and it is causing problems. First time I ever saw this with a righteousness rather than a personal view. It is wrong because of the bible is one hell of a repeated statement.

Can't say I've ever come across somebody seriously referring to the Bible as a "why I'm right" document in an office, however I don't doubt you.

Anyhoo - the fact (and point I'm trying to make) is that this person/these persons being Foreign nationals is beside the point. You don't have to listen to their crap. How you best go about tackling it is the only question.

mikemac

Never discuss religion or politics in work

Nothing good comes of it OP

Ray Palmer

CucaFace wrote: »

Well Ray maybe if you tell them you could perhaps actually change their perspective on the matter.

A lot of these people's opinions are born out of ignorance and an irrational fear, and who knows if you could get some of them them thinking in a different way.

You think I just accepted what he said and went away? I told them it is not acceptable to say what they said and how it doesn't make somebody a bad person to be gay. It doesn't make somebody a pedophile (David Norris didn't help in their view). There isn't reasonable conversation left on the subject if somebody keeps saying "the bible says so"

I can assure you one of them at least thinks I ridiculed his religion by stating how absurd it is to follow the bible and how it should not be used for law

wonderfulname

I get you OP, it's not a stereotype but a statistical likelihood that people from eastern europe hold incredibly socially conservative views. I spent the summer working on a factory floor as the only Irish person, a woman, and gay. I didn't think it was possible to work in such an environment in this day and age, rampant sexism and sexual harassment, and a scary disgust at gay men. The sexism at least does just appear to be part of the culture because the woman fell into the expected role of helpless damsel, and even lambasted me for doing the aspects of my job deemed beyond a woman's capabilities. And yes unsolicited bile directed at gay men was frequently vented for no apparent reason but I ignored it, it's far too engrained in the psyche to call them up on.

Thinking back I kind of wish I was of the culture to sue, because judging from recent years I'd make a mint

Ray Palmer

mikemac wrote: »

Never discuss religion or politics in work

Nothing good comes of it OP

I have answered this already. He brought up religion as a reason why it was wrong I did not. It was not a religious discussion but some nut jobs always state by religion. You are missing the point if you think this was a religious discussion.

LJD10

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You think I just accepted what he said and went away? I told them it is not acceptable to say what they said and how it doesn't make somebody a bad person to be gay. It doesn't make somebody a pedophile (David Norris didn't help in their view). There isn't reasonable conversation left on the subject if somebody keeps saying "the bible says so"

I can assure you one of them at least thinks I ridiculed his religion by stating how absurd it is to follow the bible and how it should not be used for law

I think you are wasting your time trying to convince these people to change their views. They have their beliefs as you have yours. If I were you I'd be looking for a new job as being around people expressing views like that all day every day would make me homicidal.

Schnooks

CJC999 wrote: »

I think that you should bring up the fact that your brother is gay and that you have gay friends, those that think its wrong can think that if they wish, however they have no right to criticise you or anyone else over it. They are not in their home countries, theyre in this country and if they dont like it then no one is asking them to stay. I would involve HR over it, part of the problem in this country is that everyone is afraid of offending minority ethnic groups yet those groups couldnt care less about your views and seem to think their religious/social views are perfectly acceptable to everyone else. I would inform HRM that their homophobic moronic opinions are unacceptable to you, just like they would be the first to bleat on about something if it were unacceptable to them. Why sit back and let someone who is from another country dictate how you act and behave in your own country???[/QUOTE]


Hear hear, particularly the parts in bold.

Sick to my back teeth of us Irish tip-toeing around "non-Irish nationals" and being super-mannerdly to them, when they behave like ignorant pigs in return.

This is our country, equality laws ensure people have rights, be they gay or non-denominational or whatever. You don't like that or think the bible should rule what goes on in this country, then leave, and don't let the door hit you in the a*se on your way out, that's how much you'll be missed.

OP I would not allow these people to freely express those views in my presence. I would either shut them up myself or, failing that, take it to management and have them disciplined. They are not entitled to talk like that here.

later12

Ray Palmer wrote: »

2) The Irish law is a huge factor and being from here I know what is socially acceptable. This is not socially acceptable behaviour in Ireland. Do you think it is?

First of all, why are you bringing up Irish law? A huge factor for what? The law has nothing to do with whether or not opinions are acceptable.

And in this post you have quietly inserted "socially" before the acceptable part, which is the first time you've done so on this thread. The other posts, including the post that I quoted involved you saying 'such views are not acceptable here'. Nothing about manners. You might consider the expression of these views bad manners, or dumb, but such opinions are acceptable in themselves, and they are expressed by Irish people, and it isn't for you nor me to dictate what opinions are valid.

Mike 1972

Dardania wrote: »

Also, when they no longer have communism doing the thinking for them, they easily switch to lettin ghte church fill that void...

TBH I was under the impression that the reason why people in some former communist countries identified so strongly with religion was that it was a hangover from the days when being religious was seen as (rather paradoxically) a way of rebelling against the establishment.

Mind you give them another 20-30 years and I suspect theyll get over it.

Rantan

Richard Hillman wrote: »

It was when the Greeks came here first, thats when it all went downhill.

Feckin' Greeks!!!!

philologos

OP: Essentially the only thing is that your work colleague doesn't agree with you on sexual ethics. It isn't homophobic to believe that sexual relations should be confined between a man and a woman in marriage any more than it is smoker-o-phobic to believe that smoking is wrong or indeed hetero-not-in-a-marriage-phobic to disagree with heterosexual sexual relations outside of marriage. I'm full aware of the fact that people may disagree with my beliefs and they are full well entitled to. That doesn't stop me having them, or aiming to live by a Christian lifestyle. It shouldn't stop your work colleague either.

ShadowHearth

Funny story:

I was working in one of the restaurants ( I am chef ) few years ago. We allways had a good lough, rassists jokes, sexism, age, sexual, you name it, no one ever got offended and everyone had a good lough.

At one stage we had a "joke" ( fellas). In the middle of busy service you could walk to someone and grab his arse. It's quite lol when you are very very busy and domt expect it. we did it for quite awile and no one got thick about it.
Once an Irish fella did that to a polish fella, ex army.... Polish fella took a huge clinkfilm roll and almost knocked out poor Irish fella from one swing! Thanks god a huge Nigerian fella( he was working in wash up, awesome awesome guy! But that's a different story) ran in and picked bouth of them apart like little kittens. ( was sort of lol ). He said: "stop that!" in most broken foreign accent you can image!

After that polish fella newer came back to work there. He just left!

I am foreigner myself, and I love a good joke,and I can take a joke, but some people can get very thick.

People in Ireland are more relaxed and can take a joke. You can have a drink and can have a good lough with people you just met in pub. I really love that in Ireland. Unfortunately fellas from eastern Europe can get thick very fast! It's just the way life goes there, you are constantly in defensive stance.

Before moral police of boards.ie hangs me I wil say this: I am a foreigner from eastern Europe myself. I live here 6 years and I love it.

wonderfulname

philologos wrote: »

OP: Essentially the only thing is that your work colleague doesn't agree with you on sexual ethics. It isn't homophobic to believe that sexual relations should be confined between a man and a woman in marriage...

Did you even read the OP or did you just decide to defend beliefs that weren't being discussed in the first place for the craic?

The suggestion that it is OK to be gay really grates with one or two. In particular one stated it was simply wrong because the bible says so...

One guy actually said he would leave if the company hired somebody who was gay...

There is a marked difference between believing that sex should be confine within marriage as it's defined by the Catholic Church and and believing that gay is simply wrong, the former is your religion, and I can respect that, do what you want within your own belief system, the latter is homophobia to a level I find pretty scary to deal with and is an existing prejudice that people have merely found some bible passages to back up.

willmunny1990

i worked with them aswell and didnt enjoy the experience to be honest,they kept talking in there language and it was as if i was supposed to understand which made work very tense and almost impossible!the do gooders will tell you different but **** it..this is my country im not here to accommodate them its the other way round in my opinion,either learn english or **** off.

philologos

wonderfulname wrote: »

Did you even read the OP or did you just decide to defend beliefs that weren't being discussed in the first place for the craic?

I read the OP, I'm skeptical as to how accurately the OP is rendering the guys beliefs though. If the stuff about people threatening to leave work because a gay person starts is true, then that definitely crosses the line as far as I'm concerned. There isn't much Biblical basis for such a view though.

wonderfulname wrote: »

There is a marked difference between believing that sex should be confine within marriage as it's defined by the Catholic Church and and believing that gay is simply wrong, the former is your religion, and I can respect that, do what you want within your own belief system, the latter is homophobia to a level I find pretty scary to deal with and is an existing prejudice that people have merely found some bible passages to back up.

The OP's friend believes that it is immoral to have sexual relations with someone of the same gender which also falls into the category of having sexual relations outside of a marriage. As far as I'm concerned that's his friends opinion and he's entitled to hold it. This is what's generally held in most mainstream forms of Christianity. Nobody is forcing you to agree with it, but ultimately one can still respect a person while disagreeing with what they do. For example, I respect many smokers, but I don't agree with smoking.

ShadowHearth

willmunny1990 wrote: »

i worked with them aswell and didnt enjoy the experience to be honest,they kept talking in there language and it was as if i was supposed to understand which made work very tense and almost impossible!the do gooders will tell you different but **** it..this is my country im not here to accommodate them its the other way round in my opinion,either learn english or **** off.

labas! As noriu buti tavo draugas!!! tu esi nuostabus!