Dublin Bus / Notes

Eamo01

So I was working late this evening, so late that when I left work (around 10pm), the local newsagents were closed. Without having change, I faced either a 20 min walk to the city centre or use a 5 euro to try board the bus.

I boarded a bus, and attempted to pay a 2.30 fare with a 5 euro note. The bus driver refused to accept it. I argued that since it was legal tender, he had to accept it, but I don't expect any change. He then told me, quite aggressively, if I didn't leaves the bus he would call his depot. I refused to leave, and the driver carried on (with my fiver in the machine). I thanked the driver, explaining I just wanted to get home. We carried on until we passed Pearse St. Garda station. The driver stopped and two gaurds entered the bus, I explained my logic to them, but after listening they (garda 3*4b, red haired guy about 5'10") foceably removed me from the bus. Once removed, I explained my logic and asked why I was removed. They told me it was because a 5e note cannot be paid. I disagreed saying that was not my understanding of the law, reiterating my understanding (legal tender is good for goods/services within the state) and stating I was not expecting a refund of change. They told "if you have a problem, go to the garda ombudsman" and tried to imply I was drunk.

My question: was I wrong?

Google says the following:
Euro coins and banknotes became legal tender in most countries of the Eurozone on January 1, 2002. Although one side of the coins is used for different national marks for each country, all coins and all banknotes are legal tender throughout the eurozone. Therefore, it is possible to find Irish euro coins in Greece and Finnish euro coins in Portugal, for instance. Although some eurozone countries do not put 1 cent and 2 cent coins into general circulation (prices in those countries are by general understanding always rounded to whole multiples of 5 cent), 1 cent and 2 cent coins from other eurozone countries remain legal tender in those countries.

European Regulation EC 974/98 limits the number of coins that can be offered for payment to fifty. [10] National laws may also impose restrictions as to maximal amounts that can be settled by coins or notes.

I just wanted to get home.

Shouldn't gaurds be able to protect citizens rights as well as big state bodies, should they have helped me out?

Misticles

FFS, you know buses only take coins! why bother trying with a note.

Either get a bus pass of be more prepared next time!

:rolleyes:

anotherlostie

So you got a free journey into the city centre and then were escorted off the bus. I presume you were then able to get some change and pay the bus fare home on the next bus? You don't say the Gardai were going to charge you, and it's not on quoting the Garda's number on a public forum.

It's for reasons like this that I always have a T90 ticket (and it's cheaper too).

Eamo01

FFS, you know buses only take coins! why bother trying with a note.

FFS, Did you read my post? :rolleyes

the local newsagents were closed. Without having change, I faced either a 20 min walk to the city centre or use a 5 euro to try board the bus.

I behaved in a way that I reasonably expected would be acceptable. I know the rules, but also expect people to be reasonable, and to follow the law.

Shelli2

From http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Fares--Tickets/Fare-Information/
"Getting on the bus – How to pay

Tell the driver where you want to go.
The driver will tell you how much your fare is.
Whenever possible please try to have the correct coins available for your fare. All Dublin Bus services are exact fare only (except Airlink 747) and drivers cannot accept euro notes or give change.
Put your coins in the automatic fare machine which you will see in front of the driver.
The driver will give you the ticket for your journey. Please keep your ticket for inspection.
If you do not have the correct coins for your fare the driver will give you a change receipt.
You can use this to collect your change at
Dublin Bus Head Office,
59 Upper O’Connell Street,
Dublin 1."


Everyone knows that buses don't accept notes, they never have, even before the machines when the drivers took the cash.



Edit to add: Having re-read your OP, it seems you also put your note into the fare machine!! That's ridiculous, it will block the machine and cause the driver even more trouble, i'm not surprised he was fed up and unreasonable with you. Did you at least try to explain your situation before shoving it into the machine?

Eamo01

So you got a free journey into the city centre and then were escorted off the bus. I presume you were then able to get some change and pay the bus fare home on the next bus? You don't say the Gardai were going to charge you, and it's not on quoting the Garda's number on a public forum.

Not a problem except the bus I get only comes about every 60mins = major wait

Garda number is public information, posted as I felt poorly treated by them (to see if other have a similar experience)...will edit out of post.

I understand Dublin does not accept notes, but my question is: Is that legal under EC 794/79?

Misticles

Yes I read it!

Buses take coins, do you not read this when you get onto a bus?

You had 20e and no change yet you know buses don't take notes under any cirumstances yet you still thought you had the right to pay with a note....

You could have gotten a taxi.. simples!

would you try paying cash for something that is advertised as paypal only? I think not.

Eamo01

Misticles: DID Yor really read my post (I only had a measly 5e)...

You had 20e and no change yet you know buses don't take notes under any cirumstances yet you still thought you had the right to pay with a note....

Shelli2: I did try explain (including local shops closed etc.), but after that didn't work, I thought it was unreasonable not to take real money - so I tried it.

Forest Master

Legal tender must be accepted in settled of a debt only - there was no debt - he was under no obligation to accept your money. You were wrong - Fact.

Sarah Bear

he didnt have to let you on the bus! you OFFERED to pay him 5 euro he refused to accept it. in order for the contract to be valid there must be offer and accepetance.

Eamo01

Ok - So I guess I'm wrong on this one. I was wrong and I'll admit it. Still wish that first bus driver would have just let me on though.

foggy_lad

Eamo01 wrote: »

Ok - So I guess I'm wrong on this one. I was wrong and I'll admit it. Still wish that first bus driver would have just let me on though.

Not only were you wrong but you wasted several minutes of other passengers time as well as delaying a bus and also cost the state by taking up and wasting the time of at least two guards who no doubt had a lot more important things to do than attend to someone who wanted to argue the different points of Dublin bus bye-laws on the step of a bus! I'm not a bit surprised they thought you were drunk!

Coriolanus

As said above, you didn't have a right to expect the bus journey. Dublin Bus only ofers the service on the premise that they accept coin or prepaid cards only. Technically the bus driver wasn't "refusing legal tender" he was just excercising his right to refuse the use of his service to you.

Disregarding the legalities of it, I've often paid with notes, or when the bus driver wasn't able to give me the change of the note or juggle it somehow with other passengers, I usually get a free bus trip anyway. It's all about attitude and from the sound of the OP, it was sorely lacking here.

I have to admit, I completely disagree with the opinions on here. Boardsies must be extremely by-the-book in real life.

If the bus driver had any common decency at all he would've just let the OP be. If the OP got on with six cans and started blaring music on his phone and calling everyone 'bud' and making a mess of the place, I'd fully expect and hope that two Gardaí would pull him off the bus by the scruff of the neck.

However, the OP clearly describes this as him being genuine and offering to pay more than twice the price of the fare so he can just get home.

Bus driver sounds like a bitter old prick, to me.

Eamo01

Disregarding the legalities of it, I've often paid with notes, or when the bus driver wasn't able to give me the change of the note or juggle it somehow with other passengers

I agree, and so have I. My attitude here does not reflect my attitude to the driver initially, I explained my situation and asked him politely if he might accept the 5e (with no change expected) - only after i was rebuffed did I waste others time, and I admit I was incorrect.

Coriolanus

Deleted User wrote: »

I have to admit, I completely disagree with the opinions on here. Boardsies must be extremely by-the-book in real life.

If the bus driver had any common decency at all he would've just let the OP be. If the OP got on with six cans and started blaring music on his phone and calling everyone 'bud' and making a mess of the place, I'd fully expect and hope that two Gardaí would pull him off the bus by the scruff of the neck.

However, the OP clearly describes this as him being genuine and offering to pay more than twice the price of the fare so he can just get home.

Bus driver sounds like a bitter old prick, to me.

He asked two questions: Was he wrong (was the bus driver obligated to accept his note)
Should the guards have "helped" him (presume he means made the driver take him?)
The answer to both is no. The bus driver probably was just a bitter old prick but when I've been in the situation I buttered the cúnt up, and got a free bus ride home, I didn't start spouting (false) legal stuff.

Like I said, it's all about attitude.

foggy_lad

Deleted User wrote: »

I have to admit, I completely disagree with the opinions on here. Boardsies must be extremely by-the-book in real life.

If the bus driver had any common decency at all he would've just let the OP be. If the OP got on with six cans and started blaring music on his phone and calling everyone 'bud' and making a mess of the place, I'd fully expect and hope that two Gardaí would pull him off the bus by the scruff of the neck.

However, the OP clearly describes this as him being genuine and offering to pay more than twice the price of the fare so he can just get home.

Bus driver sounds like a bitter old prick, to me.

So because the op had been working late at the office he should be excused ignorance of the long standing policy of Dublin bus to accept coins only? Where has the op been living for the last couple of decades? Where was the driver supposed to put the note that was offered to him? If found to have handled cash he would be sacked!

The op also states they faced a 20minute walk into the city centre, are they seriously expecting people to believe they would not have passed a spar or centra or other convenience store or public house en route where they could have got change?

foggy_lad

foggy_lad wrote: »

So because the op had been working late at the office he should be excused ignorance of the long standing policy of Dublin bus to accept coins only? Where has the op been living for the last couple of decades? Where was the driver supposed to put the note that was offered to him? If found to have handled cash he would be sacked!

The op also states they faced a 20minute walk into the city centre, are they seriously expecting people to believe they would not have passed a spar or centra or other convenience store or public house en route where they could have got change?

Fair enough.

Let's say you're out for a few drinks, you're fairly drunk and decide to call it a night. You leave the pub and head for the taxi rank that's just around the corner. Before you can reach it, two Gardaí stop you and fine you €500 for being intoxicated ina public place.

You haven't swore at anyone, damaged anyone's property, been insulting or abusive, nor have you made anyone feel intimidated.

Do you feel that the €500 fine is justified, because it's a long-standing policy?

The bus driver should have had a bit of cop on and realised a genuine case when he seen it.


Again, though, that's just my own opinion.

foggy_lad

Deleted User wrote: »

Fair enough.

Let's say you're out for a few drinks, you're fairly drunk and decide to call it a night. You leave the pub and head for the taxi rank that's just around the corner. Before you can reach it, two Gardaí stop you and fine you €500 for being intoxicated ina public place.

You haven't swore at anyone, damaged anyone's property, been insulting or abusive, nor have you made anyone feel intimidated.

Do you feel that the €500 fine is justified, because it's a long-standing policy?

The bus driver should have had a bit of cop on and realised a genuine case when he seen it.


Again, though, that's just my own opinion.

So the op is a genuine case and the single mother who is loaded down with shopping and is short a euro is not? Why should any driver put their job at risk for any customer who knows the rules and bye-laws but chooses to be an ass and waste passengers and guards time?

As for your example anyone in a situation like you described would have to be really drunk and a danger to themselves or others and at that would be arrested and maybe fined €60-€80. Most people would be pointed in the direction of their taxi.

foggy_lad

Another way to view it is if you went to your local pub and found you had left your wallet at home, most people would not be refused a few pints by the staff.

Now imagine that the beer taps and bottle fridges are all coin operated and the staff will just tell you there is nothing they can do as they are not allowed handle cash and can't issue drink without a deposit of coins.

The driver can't let you travel without a ticket either because of the hassle it would cause if an inspector gets on, much like a barman won't let you bring your own beer into a pub to drink.

foggy_lad

foggy_lad wrote: »

So the op is a genuine case and the single mother who is loaded down with shopping and is short a euro is not? Why should any driver put their job at risk for any customer who knows the rules and bye-laws but chooses to be an ass and waste passengers and guards time?

If she's weighed down by shopping then she had the €1 and just never bothered to consider the bus. She's not a genuine case in my opinion.

As for your example anyone in a situation like you described would have to be really drunk and a danger to themselves or others and at that would be arrested and maybe fined €60-€80. Most people would be pointed in the direction of their taxi.

Intoxiation in a public place has a maximum fine of €500 I do believe. You don't need to be a danger to other people. Yes, most sensible Gardaí wouldn't bother you, but if one did fine you the €500, would you really just happily accept it because it's a long-standing policy?

That's the problem that I have with your argument about the OP and the Bus Driver.

jill_valentine

Sorry, how was he risking the driver's job?

foggy_lad

jill_valentine wrote: »

Sorry, how was he risking the driver's job?

Dublin us drivers are not allowed handle cash at all and are not allowed accept notes and (maybe a Dublin bus driver can confirm?) afaik they risk being sacked if found to have accepted a €5 note from a passenger or to have given any passenger cash change for a note.

KKV the difference is that the exact fare and coin only is more than just a policy and is in constant use on all Dublin bus services while the intoxication offence is Mostly not used and possibly harder to prove in practice than the more common selection of public order offences which have similarly high maximum fines but with Irish fines the maximum is rarely if ever issued.

Cabaal

People and abit of knowledge that they incorrectly assume apply to their situation are dangerous. OP you were in the wrong and being unreasonable. The drivers actions were correct as were the Gardai.

Essentially you ignored a reasonable request to leave the bus and as you hadn't paid the fare you were trespassing (on the bus without permission after the driver asked you to remove yourself) and using the bus without a valid fare.

You can view that legal tender can be used to pay for a debt for use of products and/or services but the driver refused you any use of the product and/or services before any debt was owed by you. Accordingly no legal tender had to be accepted.

Finally I honestly don't blame the Gardai for how they handled it, you were being unreasonable, you had an incorrect interpretation of the law and you were wasting both the Gardai and the bus driver (and other passengers) time.

Forest Master

Nevore wrote: »

Technically the bus driver wasn't "refusing legal tender" he was just excercising his right to refuse the use of his service to you.

"Technically", the bus driver did refuse legal tender - it's just that he was under no obligation to accept it in the first place, so he did nothing wrong.

JimsAlterEgo

OP, you should have actually been fined.

maxer68

Eamo01 wrote: »

I argued that since it was legal tender, he had to accept it.

I disagreed saying that was not my understanding of the law, reiterating my understanding (legal tender is good for goods/services within the state) and stating I was not expecting a refund of change.

Before bulsh1tting someone with your "knowledge of law" you need to understand it fully - otherwise you'll get treated exactly as you were. - From the post, it looks like you tried to take a higher ground and state law, legal tender and "you must". The driver doesn't want, need or deserve such a rant and decided to teach you a lesson.

Next time, be nice. - Manners and respect cost nothing and can get you a lot further in life than the bull you've spouted in the post.

here.from.day.1

Drivers have taken notes from me for fare (with no change,) on more than one occasion. Must just be who you get.

wyndham

Eamo01 wrote: »

..........., red haired guy about 5'10........

That's racist.

keithclancy

OP would seem like a crazy person to me, If I was the driver.

Shelflife

Just to clarify a point here, if a tourist and his family (or one who is not totally aufait with all the dub bus regulations ) attempts to board the bus and attempts to pay the fare of lets say €10.50 with a €10 note and a 50c coin, that the driver is obliged to refuse the fare on the basis that they dont accept notes ???

foggy_lad

Shelflife wrote: »

Just to clarify a point here, if a tourist and his family (or one who is not totally aufait with all the dub bus regulations ) attempts to board the bus and attempts to pay the fare of lets say €10.50 with a €10 note and a 50c coin, that the driver is obliged to refuse the fare on the basis that they dont accept notes ???

Yes.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Tourist-Information/How-to-use-the-bus/Step-2/

Step 2
Getting on the bus - paying your fare

When you get on the bus, tell the driver where you want to go.

The driver will tell you how much your fare is.

Please make sure that you have the correct change to pay for your fare. All our services are exact fare only* and the driver cannot accept euro notes or give change.
*except Airlink routes 747/748

Put your coins into the automatic fare machine that you will see in front of the driver. Your ticket will be given to you by the driver. Please keep your ticket for inspection.

If you do not have the correct coins for your fare the driver will give you a change receipt. You can use this to collect your change at Dublin Bus Head Office, 59 Upper O’Connell Street, Dublin 1.

If you have a magnetic prepaid ticket you must insert it into the magnetic bus validator when you get on the bus.

All prepaid Smartcard tickets must be validated on the Smartcard reader by holding the Smartcard on the reader target for at least a second or until a light appears.

If you have a Free Travel Pass please show it to the driver.

Shelflife

Cheers foggy_lad.

Have to say thats just plain stupid, i know there is a security element to this but refusing business because of this rule is madness !!

How much business do they lose every year because of this?

Fine, dont give change for security reasons but to refuse a fare and call the guards for a customer who was more then willing ( maybe annoying/pain in the arse (sorry op)) to pay and accept no change, well thats just plain stupid.

noodler

Whilst there is no doubt the OP was 100% wrong, I still think it is pathetic in the extreme for the driver to have wasted the Guards time over this.

Assuming there is nothing you aren't telling us OP (you cursed, raised your voice, were drunk etc etc) then the driver really should have used a little more common sense.

Letting someone on for free in this instance sets a dangerous precedent of course but it was late, the person was just leaving work and to make the point the driver ended up delaying all passengers by more time than the OP did.

What were the options?

-Turn a blind eye and let him on for free (it has happened to me once in my life when a ticket I had was expired by a day)

- Maybe the OP could have offered someone (anyone) a five euro note for a 2 euro coin (I imagine he would have had some success here)


I know we should take each case on its merits but you see drivers letting some passenegers away with absolute murder (drinking, smoking, blaring music) without any recourse to the guards. They also clearly don't bother to challenge 'dodgy' passengers who walk past without paying, and I don't blame them one bit for this but in this instance the passenger was upfront with the driver and was punished for it.

Again, OP was wrong but it leaves a sour taste if events unfolded exactly as outlined.

foggy_lad

Shelflife wrote: »

Cheers foggy_lad.

Have to say thats just plain stupid, i know there is a security element to this but refusing business because of this rule is madness !!

How much business do they lose every year because of this?

Fine, dont give change for security reasons but to refuse a fare and call the guards for a customer who was more then willing ( maybe annoying/pain in the arse (sorry op)) to pay and accept no change, well thats just plain stupid.

Cash handling was stopped due to serious attacks on drivers. Most European cities have similar systems in operation on their busses so tourists being ignorant of this is minimal as will losses be due to advertising and information available from all busses and online

SteM

You're complaining about a 20 minute walk?! Plus, you would have passed some shop or chipper on the way where you could get change (although if they had have refused you change you probably would have shouted some bs 'law' about them having to give you change).

OP if I was one of the guards I would have taken you in to waste your time like you wasted everyone elses.

Nanazolie

And they wonder why people are not using buses more... :rolleyes:

OP, you obviously made a genuine mistake, but in fairness you did try to pay (certainly over twice the price of your journey) and the bus driver wasn't very friendly. Although you could argue that he was following the rules, and you can't fault him on that one.
May be you should have asked people on the bus if they had change before sticking your note in the machine

Anyway, this whole business of having the right change is a nightmare and not tourist friendly at all. I have family who come from abroad every year and they only take the bus once or twice, so a prepaid ticket is not good value for them. In their countries, you pay the bus driver a ticket, or you can buy single tickets at the newsagent that cover your whole journey if completed within 90 minutes. In Brussels, you can use a 10 journeys ticket for the whole group, the driver punches a hole for each passenger.
I understand the point about security threat to the drivers, etc.... But I find the current system too rigid

dudara

The issue raised by the OP has been addressed here - more than adequately.

If anyone wishes to discuss the merits of Dublin Bus' general policy regarding banknotes, then please use the Commuting & Transport forum.

dudara