Provincial Championships Outdated

Lemlin

I realise there's still a huge amount of romance in seeing the likes of Donegal win Ulster this year, Westmeath win Leinster for the first time in 2004 or Leitrim winning Connacht in 1995. However, I have to agree with those who say the provincial system is now outdated.

Kerry could progress to an All-Ireland final this year having played only one team from outside Munster - Mayo. Compare their route to their semi final to Donegal's.

Kerry - an 11 point win over Div 3 Tipp, followed by a 11 point win over Div 3 Limerick, followed by a 3 point win over Div 1 Cork and then back to a 13 point win over Div 3 Limerick.
Donegal - 6 point win over Div 2 Antrim, 9 point win over Div 3 Cavan, 3 point win over Div 2 Tyrone, 6 point win over Div 2 Derry, 1 point win over Div 2 Kildare.

Alright, Kerry have played the All-Ireland champions but, other than that, they've had an unbelievably easy run to get within one game of the All-Ireland final.

I also find it a total disgrace that beaten provincial finalists are only given six days to get ready for a replay. Only one team has managed to turn this around and come out with a win so its clear teams need to be given at least two weeks to recover.

I think it'd be far better at this stage to run 8 groups of 4 teams with teams seeded in four pots. One team from each pot goes into each group. So, if you were to go by this year's football league divisions, you would have one team from Division 1, one team from disvision 2, one team from division 3 and one team from division 4 in each pot.

The top two teams would progress from each group into the quarter finals and the bottom two could go into a Tommy Murphy style competition.

I realise more often than not you'd end up with the teams out of Division 1 and 2 in each pot going through but wouldn't that be the point - to make sure the best teams got through and the second round is made up of the best 16 teams in Ireland, regardless of province. It'd also add more meaning to the league each year - teams in division 3 for example could look as trying to get promotion to get into pot 2 so they are seeded higher.

Not to mention adding more games for counties that struggle and tend to have just two games a year.

With only Ulster and Connacht really being competitive at the minute, it'd make for a more competitive championship.

overshoot

change is needed, especially for the beaten finalists but i dont know if id ditch the provincials. maybe the provincial finalists are the first seeds and after that its based on league standings with the provincial winners' groups having a home game in the next round

how would your league standings work, would it be from the start of the campaign or after promotion/relegation is settled? im guessing the latter as it would give the league a bit more edge

either way this is one debate thats gonna keep coming back!

keane2097

Kerry getting Limerick a second time is a function of luck of the draw and nothing to do with Provincial Championships.

If Kerry had gotten Kildare and Donegal gotten Limerick it wouldn't have been all that inequitable.

Two D3 teams, a D2 team and a D1 team against two D3 teams and two D2 teams.

You've included the margins of victory to artificially enhance your argument even though they are irrelevant in this context.

There are certainly arguments against the current provincial model, but Kerry's path to this year's SF isn't one of them.

keane2097

Also, lol @ the idea of Connaught being competitive as something that actually means anything - it's competitive because all the teams in it are equally dreadful.

You could put any of the Connaught teams into Munster and they'd literally never get out of it as Champions.

Cummybaby

Yeah I have to fully agree with you there, Lemlin. The most disparaging thing, in my opinion, is the loss of prestige once associated with the Provincial Championship. To be the best team in the province was something special - an achievement itself if the All Ireland wasn't won. Nowadays I think its a risky strategy given the 6 day turn around for the runners-up, as you have highlighted. I also believe that entering the qualifiers early in the season is an advantage.

In my school days, I remember, a local priest bringing in the Anglo-Celt Cup into our class. To us it was like holding the Heineken Cup. Today I cherish the cup of tea I hold in my hand now over the Anglo Celt.

The changes you propose seem like an intelligent and straightforward solution to this issue. Which is why I know the GAA WOULD NEVER implement them. Maybe in 40 years time they will the set up a committee which will choose another committee to look into this problem. Fingers Crossed!

keane2097

Where do people get this idea that the GAA is anti-change from?

The amount of changes they've introduced to both football and hurling in the last decade or so is enormous, but we're still getting these snide comments in every thread about the GAA and this bizarre notion that any sensible change will be automatically discarded out of hand.

It's utterly misinformed and extremely tiresome.

Dangerous Man

Yeah - agree with this. The provincial championships don't really mean much at all. They should be scrapped and a more sensible tourament format (without bloody back doors) established. The current system is frankly backwards.

Fr Tod Umptious

Lemlin wrote: »

I realise there's still a huge amount of romance in seeing the likes of Donegal win Ulster this year, Westmeath win Leinster for the first time in 2004 or Leitrim winning Connacht in 1995. However, I have to agree with those who say the provincial system is now outdated.

Kerry could progress to an All-Ireland final this year having played only one team from outside Munster - Mayo. Compare their route to their semi final to Donegal's.

Kerry - an 11 point win over Div 3 Tipp, followed by a 11 point win over Div 3 Limerick, followed by a 3 point win over Div 1 Cork and then back to a 13 point win over Div 3 Limerick.
Donegal - 6 point win over Div 2 Antrim, 9 point win over Div 3 Cavan, 3 point win over Div 2 Tyrone, 6 point win over Div 2 Derry, 1 point win over Div 2 Kildare.

Alright, Kerry have played the All-Ireland champions but, other than that, they've had an unbelievably easy run to get within one game of the All-Ireland final.

I also find it a total disgrace that beaten provincial finalists are only given six days to get ready for a replay. Only one team has managed to turn this around and come out with a win so its clear teams need to be given at least two weeks to recover.

I think it'd be far better at this stage to run 8 groups of 4 teams with teams seeded in four pots. One team from each pot goes into each group. So, if you were to go by this year's football league divisions, you would have one team from Division 1, one team from disvision 2, one team from division 3 and one team from division 4 in each pot.

The top two teams would progress from each group into the quarter finals and the bottom two could go into a Tommy Murphy style competition.

I realise more often than not you'd end up with the teams out of Division 1 and 2 in each pot going through but wouldn't that be the point - to make sure the best teams got through and the second round is made up of the best 16 teams in Ireland, regardless of province. It'd also add more meaning to the league each year - teams in division 3 for example could look as trying to get promotion to get into pot 2 so they are seeded higher.

Not to mention adding more games for counties that struggle and tend to have just two games a year.

With only Ulster and Connacht really being competitive at the minute, it'd make for a more competitive championship.

I agree that the provincial championships are inequitable but your post is all over the place .

Get your facts right to start with

Letrim won Connaught in 1994

Kerry's route to the final has nothing to do with the Munster Championship, as it has already been stated it was the luck of the draw that they got Limerick.
They could have equally got Roscommon or Kildare in the draw.

Only one beaten provincial finalist had a week to prepare for their next game.
Cork had three weeks
Roscommon had two week (due to a replay I agree)
Wexford had two weeks.
Derry had one week.

aidan24326

Lemlin wrote: »

I realise more often than not you'd end up with the teams out of Division 1 and 2 in each pot going through

Not necessarily. The league divisions are pretty much irrelevant when it comes to championship. Galway were in div 1 of the league this year, but even the most deluded Galway supporter doesn't think we're in the top 8 teams right now. League placings go out the window once the ball throws in for the first round of the championship.

keane2097 wrote: »

Also, lol @ the idea of Connaught being competitive as something that actually means anything - it's competitive because all the teams in it are equally dreadful.

At the moment yes they are all poor, that hasn't always been the case though. At least the Connaught championship means something in terms of every team having some chance of winning it. The Munster Championship is a total irrelevance with Cork and Kerry having shared 99% of Munster titles between them. In the times when Cork were weak Kerry used to win Munster playing in their sleep, that makes alot of those Munster titles worthless.

You could put any of the Connaught teams into Munster and they'd literally never get out of it as Champions.

You slate the OP but now you're doing no better yourself with this sh1te.

It's fair to assume that Galway would have won a few Munster titles over the years. Not the 44 we have in Connaught, but a few all the same.

Anyway I agree that the provincial championships should be done away with, they don't really matter anymore. An Ulster title may mean something to the team that wins it, but the other 3 provincial championmships are irrelevant imo.

The_Kew_Tour

Be honest there should be no back door...

what county has come on from it since it began? not one

it worked for 100+ years never knew why it changed.

keane2097

I'm not talking about over the years, I'm talking about now, and simply illustrating the fact that a province being competitive in absolute terms has nothing at all to do with its relative quality, or how easy or difficult it is to win.

Like I said, the provincial system is flawed, but the rationale being used to argue for abandoning it in the OP is wacky to say the least.

Munster is undeniably tougher to win than Connaught, the number of teams who can potentially win Connaught is completely irrelevant in this discussion.

keane2097

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Be honest there should be no back door...

what county has come on from it since it began? not one

it worked for 100+ years never knew why it changed.

Cork have come on an enormous amount since the qualifiers have been introduced.

The_Kew_Tour

keane2097 wrote: »

Cork have come on an enormous amount since the qualifiers have been introduced.

Don't agree Cork were Munster Championships in 02,06,08 and 09 and still were beaten by Kerry in end, so I dont see how it has helped Cork..

keane2097

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Don't agree Cork were Munster Championships in 02,06,08 and 09 and still were beaten by Kerry in end, so I dont see how it has helped Cork..

The experience they gained playing into the latter stages of the Championship every year undoubtedly helped them enormously in their development.

Chances are you wouldn't have been able to build a team capable of winning Munster in 06 if you hadn't played in the qualifiers in 03 04 and 05.

endabob1

Move the provincial titles to the League & have a completely different format for the Championship.

Play the leagues on a provincial round robin basis with the winners getting the provincial titles, no one really gives a toss about the league as it stands so it might well re-energise it.

Have the championship as an open format draw where everyone gets the same chance.

Fr Tod Umptious

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Be honest there should be no back door...

what county has come on from it since it began? not one

it worked for 100+ years never knew why it changed.

I disagree, the back door has greatly added to the Championship.

If the old system was far more inequitable that the current one.

Imagine the jumping up and down here if Kerry got to last years all Ireland final by winning Munster and beating Meath and this years by just beating Mayo, a team from a 'junk' province like Connaught.

The back door was put in place to allow teams to have at least two game in the championship rather than being out of it in May.
And it has worked in the sense that teams like Sligo, Longford, Wicklow and Fermanagh have had great seasons going through the back door.

A side effect has been that it has given better teams a second crack also and given them a chance to get better, like Kerry in 09 and Cork in 2010, but that is just a side effect and nothing more

aidan24326

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

what county has come on from it since it began? not one

it worked for 100+ years never knew why it changed.

I wouldn't entirely agree. The likes of Wicklow and Sligo have had great runs through the qualifiers, and played some big championship games that they'd very rarely have had the chance to before. Kildare have benefited from it aswell.

keane2097 wrote: »

Cork have come on an enormous amount since the qualifiers have been introduced.

Cork have certainly improved over the last few years but there's no evidence that that has anything to do with the qualifiers. I think it's just that they've produced better players, simple as that.

keane2097 wrote: »

Munster is undeniably tougher to win than Connaught.

That simply isn't true. Clare, Tipp and Waterford are no-hopers, and none of those 3 teams would ever win Connaught, except maybe once in the bluest of moons, while Limerick wouldn't exactly have many Connaught titles to their name either (they might have picked up a couple in the last 10 years, but they wouldn't win it very often)

So how can you say Munster is tougher when there's only 2 teams that can ever win it? And like I mentioned nefore Cork haven't always been as strong as they are now, so there were times in the past when Kerry could stroll through Munster without having to beat anyone.

I'm not blaming Kerry for that, but it shows up the lopsided nature of the provincial system. If you're drawn in the preliminary round in Ulster you have to win 4 hard games to win an Ulster title. Connaught is rubbish at the moment I agree, but there were times in the past when all 3 of Galway, Mayo and Roscommon were fairly strong, and you can never take Sligo for granted either (as our lads know from that game in Killarney a couple of years ago!)

Frankie Lee

endabob1 wrote: »

Move the provincial titles to the League & have a completely different format for the Championship.

Play the leagues on a provincial round robin basis with the winners getting the provincial titles, no one really gives a toss about the league as it stands so it might well re-energise it.

Have the championship as an open format draw where everyone gets the same chance.

I say scrap the league and the pre season tournaments (O'byrne cup etc.)
Play the provincial Championships as a side tournament to a champions League style round robin All Ireland Championship where every team is guaranteed 6 games.

keane2097

aidan24326 wrote: »

I wouldn't entirely agree. The likes of Wicklow and Sligo have had great runs through the qualifiers, and played some big championship games that they'd very rarely have had the chance to before. Kildare have benefited from it aswell.




Cork have certainly improved over the last few years but there's no evidence that that has anything to do with the qualifiers. I think it's just that they've produced better players, simple as that.



That simply isn't true. Clare, Tipp and Waterford are no-hopers, and none of those 3 teams would ever win Connaught, except maybe once in the bluest of moons, while Limerick wouldn't exactly have many Connaught titles to their name either (they might have picked up a couple in the last 10 years, but they wouldn't win it very often)

So how can you say Munster is tougher when there's only 2 teams that can ever win it? And like I mentioned nefore Cork haven't always been as strong as they are now, so there were times in the past when Kerry could stroll through Munster without having to beat anyone.

I'm not blaming Kerry for that, but it shows up the lopsided nature of the provincial system. If you're drawn in the preliminary round in Ulster you have to win 4 hard games to win an Ulster title. Connaught is rubbish at the moment I agree, but there were times in the past when all 3 of Galway, Mayo and Roscommon were fairly strong, and you can never take Sligo for granted either (as our lads know from that game in Killarney a couple of years ago!)

To win a provincial championship you have to beat the best teams in it, not just the worst.

In the last ten years if you swapped Mayo and Cork, Cork would have won Connaught probably every year and Mayo would have probably won zero or one Munster Championships.

Even if you just compare it directly:

the two best teams in Munster > the two best teams in Connaught
the third team in Munster ~= the 3rd and fourth best teams in Connaught
the fourth best team in Munster > the 5th team in connaught
5th & 6th best teams in Munster < the 5th team in Connaught

I think this point is really simple, but maybe I'm not being clear:

Having two teams in one championship that are at a very high level makes a province tougher to win, not easier.

"Competitive" is a really terrible way to look at it, because it gives as much credit to 6 terrible teams who are close to one another's level as it does to six excellent teams who are close to one another's level.

Pharaoh1

If you were to run the championship as the OP suggested it would make for a more streamlined/tidier competition.
If every team played the round robin/group games on the same three consecutive weekends, (say finish by late May/early June) one weekend for the last 16, last 8 and so on then it would make a huge difference to the club championships and club players in general.

Of course there could be replays in the knockout stages but everyone would be on a level playing field as regards recovery time.
I suppose you could still have provincial finals based on the two teams with the most points and best score difference in their groups contesting but I doubt there would be huge interest.
From the GAA point of view there would be two major issues.

- Despite the plight of club players in many counties the GAA does not want the football championship run off relatively quickly on a limited number of weekends. It is in their interest to drag it out for as long as possible from early May to late Sept. Witness how we are drip fed the Ulster championship with one game a week (or sometimes a fortnight) until we get to the final.
I completely understand the GAA thinking in that they want to keep the game in the media every week and hype up individual games.

- The GAA understand fully what the majority of supporters want. They need to keep the number of games down with reasonable intervals between them so they can keep the attendance at each game up. Having a plethora of games with small crowds does not look good for the image of the organisation, on tv, or for the sponsors.

For these reasons I don't think there will be any major change in the near future.

Lemlin

keane2097 wrote: »

Kerry getting Limerick a second time is a function of luck of the draw and nothing to do with Provincial Championships.

If Kerry had gotten Kildare and Donegal gotten Limerick it wouldn't have been all that inequitable.

Two D3 teams, a D2 team and a D1 team against two D3 teams and two D2 teams.

You've included the margins of victory to artificially enhance your argument even though they are irrelevant in this context.

There are certainly arguments against the current provincial model, but Kerry's path to this year's SF isn't one of them.

I don't think they are irrelevant. Tipperary and Waterford are both poor teams who generally do nothing in championship football. Compare that to the Ulster counties, who have all made some sort of impact in the last decade. Even my own Cavan who are sh!te made the last 12 in '05.

The same goes for Connacht. The likes of Mayo, Galway and Roscommon have made impacts. You say Connacht is unbelievably poor but I'd see Mayo, Roscommon and even Galway, given the youth teams they have coming through, as capable of being strong.

Kerry come through Munster every year where they play pretty much one competitive game. If you want to even take the quarter final vs Limerick out of it, compare the route Kerry or Cork have to get to a quarter final to that of Tyrone.

If Armagh aren't strong, you can be damn sure one or two of Down, Monaghan, Derry or Donegal will be. Whereas if Cork have a bad year, Kerry have a straight run in.

Panrich

keane2097 wrote: »

Also, lol @ the idea of Connaught being competitive as something that actually means anything - it's competitive because all the teams in it are equally dreadful.

You could put any of the Connaught teams into Munster and they'd literally never get out of it as Champions.

Well Mayo could win a 'hypothetical' Munster title this year by beating Kerry on Sunday week.

Lemlin

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I agree that the provincial championships are inequitable but your post is all over the place .

Get your facts right to start with

Letrim won Connaught in 1994

Kerry's route to the final has nothing to do with the Munster Championship, as it has already been stated it was the luck of the draw that they got Limerick.
They could have equally got Roscommon or Kildare in the draw.

Only one beaten provincial finalist had a week to prepare for their next game.
Cork had three weeks
Roscommon had two week (due to a replay I agree)
Wexford had two weeks.
Derry had one week.

Accept the fault re '94 and '95. Doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things though.

As I say above, take out the quarter final, look at the run to it and they still have an easier run than the other provincial champions of Tyrone, Dublin and Mayo who have more than one competitive team in their province. Tyrone have 4 or five for example.

Yes, and it wasn't right that Derry only had a week. It has happened numerous times in other years but shouldn't happen at all tbh.

aidan24326

Frankie Lee wrote: »

Play the provincial Championships as a side tournament to a champions League style round robin All Ireland Championship where every team is guaranteed 6 games.

But then there would be absolutely no point in even having provincial championships.

keane2097 wrote: »

To win a provincial championship you have to beat the best teams in it, not just the worst.

In the last ten years if you swapped Mayo and Cork, Cork would have won Connaught probably every year and Mayo would have probably won zero or one Munster Championships.

Even if you just compare it directly:

the two best teams in Munster > the two best teams in Connaught
the third team in Munster ~= the 3rd and fourth best teams in Connaught
the fourth best team in Munster > the 5th team in connaught
5th & 6th best teams in Munster < the 5th team in Connaught

I think this point is really simple, but maybe I'm not being clear:

Having two teams in one championship that are at a very high level makes a province tougher to win, not easier.

"Competitive" is a really terrible way to look at it, because it gives as much credit to 6 terrible teams who are close to one another's level as it does to six excellent teams who are close to one another's level.

We're just arguing in circles now anyway, and it really doesn't matter because neither your county nor mine places any great importance on winning the province, it's Croke Park in August/September that really counts, that being true in Kerry probably moreso than anywhere (I mean I don't think bragging about your Munster medals would get you very far in Kerry).

I know it's as well to win it as not, just that it's not a cause for any great celebration if you're of the traditionally stronger counties. (though the way Galway football is heading we might be happy to win a Connaught title soon enough!)

Lemlin

keane2097 wrote: »

To win a provincial championship you have to beat the best teams in it, not just the worst.

In the last ten years if you swapped Mayo and Cork, Cork would have won Connaught probably every year and Mayo would have probably won zero or one Munster Championships.

Even if you just compare it directly:

the two best teams in Munster > the two best teams in Connaught
the third team in Munster ~= the 3rd and fourth best teams in Connaught
the fourth best team in Munster > the 5th team in connaught
5th & 6th best teams in Munster < the 5th team in Connaught

I think this point is really simple, but maybe I'm not being clear:

Having two teams in one championship that are at a very high level makes a province tougher to win, not easier.

"Competitive" is a really terrible way to look at it, because it gives as much credit to 6 terrible teams who are close to one another's level as it does to six excellent teams who are close to one another's level.

Re your point and Cork winning Connacht every year for the past decade, they lost to Galway in '01, Roscommon in '03 and Mayo this year.

By the same token, if you placed Cork or Kerry up in Ulster for the last decade, do you think they would have performed as well? They haven't beaten Tyrone this decade for example.

Kerry could stroll to back to back All-Ireland with one tough game in their province. Tyrone had to come back and try to have the hunger to take on the likes of Armagh, Derry, Down and Monaghan again.

Munster is only an example at the minute. I'm sure there could be further examples of years ago where a province was weak. Therefore I think it makes sense to have a proper seeding format. It would make for a more competitive and fairer system.

ArmaniJeanss

The complete lack of competitive games in the initial group stages of the suggestion in the OP would be a horror show.

8 groups of 4 would take 96 games.
The vast majority of these would be one sided as the Div1&2 beat up the Div3&4 teams. The games between the Div1&Div2 teams would be built up, but would still be fairly meaningless as whoever lost would still probably qualify.

Most of the games in Week6 (if not Week5) would be dead rubbers.

Syferus

These proposals will never work for the simple fact the GAA is based around local rivalries, at parish and county level. Roscommon vs. Wexford would be far less well attended as Roscommon vs. Leitrim, for example, so money just ends ends up leaking out of the pockets of the GAA.

If one thing talks to any sporting organisation it's the cash and for even those reasons alone these champion's league formats will never take hold, and honestly, that's for the best.

hurlingmad81

tipp are coming good in football i think. being in munster is a killer though as cork and kerry are seeded again i believe. never gona beat both of em in one year. limerick are unlucky to be in with big 2 in munster. if they were in connaught or leinster they could've had some great campaings over last few years. they could've won a leinster round 03 or 04 ..and they definitely could've won a connaught. open draw would be good for football

premierstone

LOL at the posters using Munster as the example of a ''weak province'' do ye realise the difference between competitive and quality, and aside form Cork and Kerry ye are also being highly disrespectfull to Limerick who would certainly have won a provincuial title in any of the other provinces in the last 6-7 years.

Also were Clare not very unfortunate to lose to Down by a single point in the qualifiers this year and Clare are fourth best team in munster, Wicklow took Armagh to a replay, Tyrone were run ragged last saturday looks more like some people are a bit deluded about the strenght of their own provinces.

Fireball07

premierstone wrote: »

LOL at the posters using Munster as the example of a ''weak province'' do ye realise the difference between competitive and quality, and aside form Cork and Kerry ye are also being highly disrespectfull to Limerick who would certainly have won a provincuial title in any of the other provinces in the last 6-7 years.

Also were Clare not very unfortunate to lose to Down by a single point in the qualifiers this year and Clare are fourth best team in munster, Wicklow took Armagh to a replay, Tyrone were run ragged last saturday looks more like some people are a bit deluded about the strenght of their own provinces.

Limerick did beat the Leinster finalists. Might have been some controversy but they were definitely as good as them on the day. Every other year we've given Cork and Kerry very tough games. Drew with Cork in normal time last year and they won the All-Ireland... one year without our best player when we didn't perform against Kerry and suddenly it's a joke province? Especially since Clare only barely lost to Down and Tipp are definitely going to be a lot stronger in coming years.

I like the provincial championships and the current qualifiers. It's not perfect but I would dislike the use of a round robin. And 2 games for teams is better than 1...at the moment. In the luck of the draw, you've got a chance of getting a team that you can beat. Look at London this year.


And if you seeded groups, it would almost certainly doom certain teams. At least recently smaller teams have had a shot at taking some silverware. And good runs through the qualifiers like Wicklow, Sligo, Wexford, Fermanagh get people behind the teams and adds excitement to the championship.

gooch2k9

Its not fair to give out about the Munster championship when at least four, if not five of the counties have a majority interest in hurling. You can't blame Kerry and Cork for the other teams not having as much interest due to this fact.

rossie1977

keane2097 wrote: »

To win a provincial championship you have to beat the best teams in it, not just the worst.

In the last ten years if you swapped Mayo and Cork, Cork would have won Connaught probably every year

i doubt it, in 2003 we (roscommon) were beating cork comfortably until a late cork rally saw us only win by a point, galway beat us with something to spare that year in connacht, even so cork were pretty poor from 2002 to 2006 and would have won no connachts imo

true kerry and cork are very strong as of now and have been in the past but when mayo and galway were very strong circa 1996 to 2002 that brought the rest of the teams in connacht up, roscommon beat both galway and mayo in 2001 (mayo were league champions, galway were beaten finalists in 2000 and champions in 2001), leitrim beat roscommon in 2000, sligo were superb in 2002 beating tyrone in croke park and should have beaten armagh too, the same armagh who won the a-i that year

overshoot

interesting fact me and one of the lads were chatting about at work (i needed wiki for proof) but every ulster county made at least 1 final appearace in the noughties, you can hardly take that away from some of the weaker counties. annoyingly donegal were the third best team with 3 finals appearances... says it all about armagh and tyrone's dominance. monaghan had 2, one for everyone else.
also since the qualifiers have come in, cork x2, kildare and dublin are the only non ulster teams to beat donegal

Lemlin

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

The complete lack of competitive games in the initial group stages of the suggestion in the OP would be a horror show.

8 groups of 4 would take 96 games.
The vast majority of these would be one sided as the Div1&2 beat up the Div3&4 teams. The games between the Div1&Div2 teams would be built up, but would still be fairly meaningless as whoever lost would still probably qualify.

Most of the games in Week6 (if not Week5) would be dead rubbers.

And what would be wrong with 96 games? You'd have 3 games at least for every team. Games could be run each weekend in county grounds.

I'm also not sure about your assertion that Div 1 and 2 teams would always win. For example, Division 3 Offaly beat Division 1 Monaghan this year. There is the chance of shocks in there. Sligo and Antrim are Division 2 for example. I think the likes of Roscommon in Div 4, or the majority of the Div 3 teams would beat them.

Let's not forget the same system of seeding teams works in soccer all the time.

And the competition could still throw up plenty of rivalries, not to mention the draw for the second rounds after the group stages too.

premierstone

Lemlin wrote: »

And what would be wrong with 96 games? You'd have 3 games at least for every team. Games could be run each weekend in county grounds.

96 games just to halve the teams, lovely lets screw club players all together sure they dont really matter anyway :rolleyes:

jjll

provincials should be played in feb til april then just have an open draw for all ireland no seedings open draw....

Syferus

jjll wrote: »

provincials should be played in feb til april then just have an open draw for all ireland no seedings open draw....

The provincials would lose all meaning in that case, and even if the results were tied to seedings the edge that makes the provincial championships what they are would evaporate almost completely. Any changes to the championship need to keep the basic framework of the provinces and, honestly, for political and practical reasons, ideas outside of that will never get off the ground. People need to be more realistic.

Lemlin

premierstone wrote: »

96 games just to halve the teams, lovely lets screw club players all together sure they dont really matter anyway :rolleyes:

The majority of club teams play 7 to 8 championship games max. It's hardly a struggle to fit 3 intercounty games into their schedules.

I leave near Meath and in Cavan. There have been several weekends in both with no intercounty or club match on.

Plenty of available time for matches to go on.

Padkir

Lemlin wrote: »

The majority of club teams play 7 to 8 championship games max. It's hardly a struggle to fit 3 intercounty games into their schedules.

I leave near Meath and in Cavan. There have been several weekends in both with no intercounty or club match on.

Plenty of available time for matches to go on.

And they certainly have no league games or reserve league games, or divisional cup games to be playing anyway...:rolleyes:

Why not do away with club football altogether, sure the All Ireland is all that matters!

Lemlin

Padkir wrote: »

And they certainly have no league games or reserve league games, or divisional cup games to be playing anyway...:rolleyes:

Why not do away with club football altogether, sure the All Ireland is all that matters!

Well it is the premier and most important competition.

Reserve league games are for reserves. Subs are often used in league matches around the country, just as in the inter county GAA league.

I failt to see the big problem here. Every team plays at least 2 matches with the current system. I'm talking about each side playing one more game at least. It's hardly going to cause the apocalypse.

Unsder this system, it'd take a team 3 matches to reach the last 16, then a second round tie, a quarter final, a semi final and then the final.

That's seven matches. The same as it'll take Donegal if they reach this year's final.

It'd also even out the system. For example, it'd get rid of some teams having to play extra preliminary ties. Is it fair that Donegal beat Antrim and then played Cavan but if they lost to Cavan they'd be in the exact same qualifer draw as Antrim that they'd already beaten? Doesn't make sense to me.

Temp Barry

The big problem with using a Champions League style system (or say the American football NFL system or the Aussie rules system - which all work very well for those sports) is that there will be dead rubbers. Dead rubbers are ok in professional sport - because they are professional sports, there's money on the line. Dead rubbers are okay in the national league because at least its preparation for championship - but dead rubbers in the championship just won't work.

That's the beauty of the current system. If you lose you are either knocked out of the provincial championship - or you're knocked out of the All Ireland championship.

ArmaniJeanss

Temp Barry wrote: »

The big problem with using a Champions League style system (or say the American football NFL system or the Aussie rules system - which all work very well for those sports) is that there will be dead rubbers. Dead rubbers are ok in professional sport - because they are professional sports, there's money on the line. Dead rubbers are okay in the national league because at least its preparation for championship - but dead rubbers in the championship just won't work.

That's the beauty of the current system. If you lose you are either knocked out of the provincial championship - or you're knocked out of the All Ireland championship.

And what would be arguably even worse than the dead rubber is the game in the final week of the groups where one county needs a win to qualify but the other county is already eliminated.

Het-Field

Ultimately, an amendement of existing Championship structures is not an idea which it too far fetched.

I cannot remember whether it was factored in at the time, but when the original back-door system was introduced in hurling it essentially rewarded teams from the competitive provinces, while directing Galway and the winner of the Ulster Provincial title to earn their corn. Galway were good, but between 1995-1999, the used play dead rubber finals against Roscommon, while Ulster was generally poor, having contributed one AI Finalist over a long period. It was wrong that Leinster and Munster teams were expected to cut themselves, and based on geography, Galway and Antrim (sometimes Down) were almost handed a semi final place. In 1999 the new system gave rise to a most memorable clash between Galway and Clare, and Offaly took thier rightful place by hammering Antrim. The system has been changed twice since, and it has rightfully ensured that geography has not determined half the participants at any stage of the tournament.

This would suggest that change in the footballing arena should not be ruled out. Personally, I have never been a fan of the mantra that a team should be entitled to at least two games per year. The new system has downgraded the provincial titles, and the only incentive to win them is to bridge long gaps between titles. A provincial victory is essentially rewarded by having to play a team which has enjoyed a streak of victories, some over counties from different provinces, and differing styles of football. Thus, the only way to preserve the importance of the provinces, is to reform the internal structures.

I also dont buy into this idea that failure in your province should give rise to a free ride into the AI Championship. Thus, if change was to arise, I would like to see a recalibration of the provinces to ensure as even numbers as possible. I would then establish two evenly numbered groups in each province, the top teams of each would progress to the provincial final, and the winner would progress to the AI Semi Final. It would preserve the sanctity of the provinces, while providing teams with a number of games. A seedings system would have to be established, and the groups would be drawn on that basis.

fearbainne

slightly off topic but can someone explain to me why Galway (and Antrim maybe?) are in the Leinster HC? cheers

overshoot

fearbainne wrote: »

slightly off topic but can someone explain to me why Galway (and Antrim maybe?) are in the Leinster HC? cheers

it was done to help the 2 counties develop, aiming to give them more tough games as the 2 are miles ahead of the rest in their own provences

copycat

Lemlin wrote: »

And what would be wrong with 96 games? You'd have 3 games at least for every team. Games could be run each weekend in county grounds.

I'm also not sure about your assertion that Div 1 and 2 teams would always win. For example, Division 3 Offaly beat Division 1 Monaghan this year. There is the chance of shocks in there. Sligo and Antrim are Division 2 for example. I think the likes of Roscommon in Div 4, or the majority of the Div 3 teams would beat them.

Let's not forget the same system of seeding teams works in soccer all the time.

And the competition could still throw up plenty of rivalries, not to mention the draw for the second rounds after the group stages too.

Lemlin, Your proposed system is the obvious solution, so obvious it will probably never be utilised. I firmly agree this is the way forward as the provincials are past their sell by date and time has moved on. I believe a change of system can only be voted in at the annual congress. Does this system have to be proposed by a club and take the ardous route to congress or is there a more straighforward way of getting this to congress?