Rioting - Do you approve?

El Sorab

When a peaceful protest occurs it is easy to ignore. Say there are 100,000 people outside the dail peacefully gathering around all the politicians can go about their business and to a very large extent just ignore them.

Normal people with jobs have too much to lose from going protesting and therefore they are unlikely to attend. If they are going to walk out of their jobs over it they have to be sure they can succeed.

So a small number of people without jobs or much to lose rioting, wrecking the place can do the job much more effectively. If the city is being torn down then the government will have to sit up and take notice.

Rioting isn't a pleasant activity but sometimes the best way or the only way to get noticed by a government that would rather ignore you

Helix

look, these guys arent smashing the place up as some kind of political statement. they're scum who found an excuse to act like utter toerags with very little chance of being caught. its not productive, and theres no thinking behind it beyond "lets wreck the place coz we can"

amacachi

People do realise that "asserting ourselves" would lead to having to balance our budget almost overnight yes?

El Sorab

Helix wrote: »

look, these guys arent smashing the place up as some kind of political statement. they're scum who found an excuse to act like utter toerags with very little chance of being caught. its not productive, and theres no thinking behind it beyond "lets wreck the place coz we can"

I'm not talking specifically about the London riots but the fact that these "toe rags" exist doesn't really say a whole lot about the British government since they have been alienated from the rest of society and become disgruntled in this way. Similar to how in Ireland there are scumbags and the rest of us.

To go around saying these people are scum just distracts from the real issue at hand that the UK is turning into (or is already) a police state and the whole riots are a reaction to the heavy handed British police.

"Scum" are likely the only ones to join a riot because a person with a job and a mortgage and kids and a BMW 7 series has just too much to lose from joining a riot.

Scum also have little chance of improving themselves because of the extensive criminal record/asbo/sex offender system there anyone who has ever done anything bad in the UK is almost permanently banished from society and has their chances of success ruined even if they change their ways. So although they are not part of any political motion they are a symptom of a problem that was indeed caused by politicians.

El Sorab

amacachi wrote: »

People do realise that "asserting ourselves" would lead to having to balance our budget almost overnight yes?

Its better than just continuing to dig a deeper hole for ourselves by making our current imbalanced budget even less balanced. While the soft option in the short term it is far more costly in the long run.

amacachi

Funny, I could've sworn the vast majority of protests have been against the so-called austerity imposed so far. People haven't been demanding more cuts in general, or at least they're not the type who don't recognise and respect property rights.

El Sorab

amacachi wrote: »

Funny, I could've sworn the vast majority of protests have been against the so-called austerity imposed so far. People haven't been demanding more cuts in general, or at least they're not the type who don't recognise and respect property rights.

Well the government doesn't exactly respect property rights either. Else they wouldn't be trying to tax people every year for merely owning a house.

amacachi

Unfortunately since the majority of people want to see as few cuts in government spending (that affect them) as possible just about the only alternative is to increase taxes alongside the piecemeal cuts that are being made.

Einhard

El Sorab wrote: »

Rioting isn't a pleasant activity but sometimes the best way or the only way to get noticed by a government that would rather ignore you

Or you could, you know, vote. But then that's not as "fun" or "exciting" as smashing up other peoples' property, and burning people out of their homes, is it?

El Sorab

Einhard wrote: »

Or you could, you know, vote. But then that's not as "fun" or "exciting" as smashing up other peoples' property, and burning people out of their homes, is it?

Not as effective maybe.

Once every 5 years you get a chance to pick your poision from a group of lads who say they are going to do a certain number of things you approve of but end up doing quite the opposite. Democracy is pretty much a failed system

Einhard

El Sorab wrote: »

Democracy is pretty much a failed system

FFS.

Tell that to the milions of Arabs who yearn for what you call a "failed system".

What you advocate is nothing but mob rule. He who shouts loudest, and fights hardest wins. Some system. Democracy has its flaws, but it's far better than the type of anarchy you suggest, where a tiny minority is listened to over the vast majority, purely because they're prepared to riot, or cause havoc.

Democracy is only failed to you, because those with your beliefs failed to get elected a few months ago. That's not a failure of democracy, but a failure of whatever ideology you profess.

Tehachapi

Einhard wrote: »

Or you could, you know, vote.

What political party could have changed Ireland's situation or would have done anything differently had they got in instead of FG/Labour?

Fine Gael are just repeating the same mistakes FF made, and creating stupid backward reactionary policies of their own (the intern placement programme being one of them).

I don't condone what these idiots in London are doing but throughout history the most effective way to change society was by naked force.

El Sorab

Einhard wrote: »

FFS.

Tell that to the milions of Arabs who yearn for what you call a "failed system".

What you advocate is nothing but mob rule. He who shouts loudest, and fights hardest wins. Some system. Democracy has it's flaws, but it's far better than the type of anarchy you suggest, where a tiny minority is listened to over the vast majority, purely because they're prepared to riot, or cause havoc.

Democracy is only failed to you, because those with your beliefs failed to get elected a few months ago. That's not a failure of democracy, but a failure of whatever ideology you profess.

The problem is the ability of elected representatives to do what they want for a fixed period once elected. You only have their word that they'll do what they say they're going to do.

If the lads I voted for did what they promised I wouldn't have so much of a problem with it. Like the current Lib Dem/Tory crowd in england promised sweeping reforms to civil liberties yet progress is remarkably slow.

I'm not advocating that these rioters take over power and rule the country just saying that rioting is a much underrated way of making an incompetent government take notice of an issue they're ignoring. What is lacking is a more direct way for the people to force the government to immediatly take action to resolve a problem.

getz

there is a idiot gene in every one under 20,that you can see it at work outside any pub in any city between 9 and 12 any night of the week,as in the likes of london ect,add the fact that the police are having goverment cut backs,and i believe that they are deliberately reacting slowly to the riots,to prove the point,but smashing looting and burning is just criminal, the only people who end up suffering is the people who live and work in the areas of the riots,

njd2010

Bit of a disconnect between title of thread and question in the poll I think. "Rioting-do you approve?" suggests the London or possibly Vancouver riots. Nobody with half a brain cell could approve of those. Mindless idiots with a sick idea of fun.

"Is rioting ever necessary?" That's a better question. I remember a great quote that went something like "Take away people's ability for non-violent rebellion and you leave them with nothing but violence"... I'm far too hungover to remember the exact quote or who said it, but you get my meaning. Peaceful protest is the best kind of protest, but there are and always have been situations where that's not possible or effective.


So, no, I don't "approve" of rioting in general, but is it ever necessary? Yes, sadly.

amacca

El Sorab wrote: »

I'm not talking specifically about the London riots but the fact that these "toe rags" exist doesn't really say a whole lot about the British government since they have been alienated from the rest of society and become disgruntled in this way. Similar to how in Ireland there are scumbags and the rest of us.

the fact that these "toe rags" exist doesnt say a whole lot about themselves

I just love the way when somebody or groups of people do something wrong .... there are always excuses made...usually to to with how deprived etc the "toe rags" in question are

lets blame the government and society for not providing a proper chance in life for the poor looters/rioters

no...lets blame the individuals in question themselves for being scum and then lets blame the criminal ahem "justice" system for not actually punishing these people

El Sorab wrote: »

To go around saying these people are scum just distracts from the real issue at hand that the UK is turning into (or is already) a police state and the whole riots are a reaction to the heavy handed British police.

the riots are a reaction to an opportunity to get "free stuff" innit like!

if you ask me, the police are not allowed be heavy handed enough...the minute a protestor (rioter/looter) starts throwing bricks etc and walking up to a line of police they should be allowed open up on them

El Sorab wrote: »

"Scum" are likely the only ones to join a riot because a person with a job and a mortgage and kids and a BMW 7 series has just too much to lose from joining a riot.

whose fault is that

El Sorab wrote: »

Scum also have little chance of improving themselves because of the extensive criminal record/asbo/sex offender system there anyone who has ever done anything bad in the UK is almost permanently banished from society and has their chances of success ruined even if they change their ways. So although they are not part of any political motion they are a symptom of a problem that was indeed caused by politicians.

a lot of the problems last night seemed to be caused by quite young individuals.....I wonder if the above has as much to do with it as you think.

anyway I think the problem isnt that the system is too harsh on the poor offenders....I think the problem is that it is not harsh enough to be a proper deterrent

MetalDog

The youth of the Middle East rise up for basic freedoms. . . . the youth of London rise up for a 42" HD Ready plasma TV.

Hank_Jones

I certainly wouldn't say that I approve of rioting,
but I sometimes think that in this country the people are so apathetic, it allows incompetence in high ranking positions to flourish.

Having said that though, if we lived in a third world country,
we would probably be under a dictatorship and have no say whatsoever.

I certainly think that we need a more extreme approach within this country,
proper mass marches, permanent "sieges" on Leinster House.

Sometimes I just wish there were radicals in power who would sort out all the nonsense we have with our health care system etc...
Then we could overthrow them and install a left wing government.

Also, rabble, rabble. :pac:

amacca

MetalDog wrote: »

The youth of the Middle East rise up for basic freedoms. . . . the youth of London rise up for a 42" HD Ready plasma TV.

which they then smash up and leave behind them in a wanton display of sheer destructiveness and stupidity

they could at least show some intelligence and bring some tools with them to remove the thing so it still operates and someone can get some use out of it

getz

someone will come up with a excuse, that they are misunderstood young men,or they are from a poor background, out of work with no prospects ect,OK then make them work in the community their so interested in smashing up,for a year,

hatrickpatrick

amacachi wrote: »

Unfortunately since the majority of people want to see as few cuts in government spending (that affect them) as possible just about the only alternative is to increase taxes alongside the piecemeal cuts that are being made.

Or we could take the €50bn set aside for rescuing failed private banking investors, and use it to avoid said cuts in spending?
Why should I pay for someone else's f*ck ups? You bought bank bonds? Tough sh*t, when you gamble you don't always win. Hands off MY cash thanks, I didn't invest badly so why should I pay for you?

Every single person in this country should be on the streets day after day demanding an end to this. I don't approve of what's going on in England but at least people over there are SORT OF motivated to take to the streets.

What's it going to take for Irish people to stop bending over whenever bondholders come a-whinging?

amacca

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Or we could take the €50bn set aside for rescuing failed private banking investors, and use it to avoid said cuts in spending?
Why should I pay for someone else's f*ck ups? You bought bank bonds? Tough sh*t, when you gamble you don't always win. Hands off MY cash thanks, I didn't invest badly so why should I pay for you?

Every single person in this country should be on the streets day after day demanding an end to this. I don't approve of what's going on in England but at least people over there are SORT OF motivated to take to the streets.

What's it going to take for Irish people to stop bending over whenever bondholders come a-whinging?

as things stand (because of unbelievable mismanagement and bad bad decisions) if the banks fail you could end up paying an even bigger price than the one being imposed on you [a much much bigger price]

the banks would fail if that 50bn was not available....many of your neighbours/friends/parents/whatever would lose savings etc - imagine the consequences of what you advocate...on you!

I see it as a case of the lesser of two evils at this stage

getz

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Or we could take the €50bn set aside for rescuing failed private banking investors, and use it to avoid said cuts in spending?
Why should I pay for someone else's f*ck ups? You bought bank bonds? Tough sh*t, when you gamble you don't always win. Hands off MY cash thanks, I didn't invest badly so why should I pay for you?

Every single person in this country should be on the streets day after day demanding an end to this. I don't approve of what's going on in England but at least people over there are SORT OF motivated to take to the streets.

What's it going to take for Irish people to stop bending over whenever bondholders come a-whinging?

dont believe that the roiters in england are motivated by any political reason,most have the same IQ as their age ,and think sherlock holmes is a housing estate in south london.

Jam

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the Love Ulster Riot from back in 2005~. That was a lovely demonstration of understanding for political reform, with youth wearing the Tricolour throwing rocks at buses of Protestants, looting, calling Charlie Bird a "Proddy bastard" IIRC, smashing up the place and generally being a lovely reflection on our fair city.

Hank_Jones

getz wrote: »

dont believe that the roiters in england are motivated by any political reason,most have the same IQ as their age ,and think sherlock holmesis a housing estate in south london.

Now, now, I'm sure most of them know that it is a film with that American bloke Robert Downey whatshisface.

amacca

Jam wrote: »

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the Love Ulster Riot from back in 2005~. That was a lovely demonstration of understanding for political reform, with youth wearing the Tricolour throwing rocks at buses of Protestants, looting, calling Charlie Bird a "Proddy bastard" IIRC, smashing up the place and generally being a lovely reflection on our fair city.

why would they?....apart from the fact it was another gang of scum rioting etc whats the particular relevance here?

why arent you surprised people haven't brought up all the other riots etc that have probably happened all over the world at some point in time?

Guill

Rioting has it place in society, it can be criminal (Like Londons at the moment) or it can be part of violent but neccesary protest.

Viva La revolution!

Penn

If someone is rioting and they don't even know what the protest/riot is about, I should be legally allowed to throw bricks through their windows, throw petrol bombs at their parents, punch their sister in the face and rob half their stuff.

I fully agree with protesting. The trouble is, it's always ruined by rioters/troublemakers, and then the whole purpose of the protest is ruined, and only ever referred to in the media when they say "Protestors opposed to the XXXXXX turned violent today...."

super_furry

People in the Middle East are protesting and fighting for freedom. Scangers in London are rioting for a free plasma tv.

Thud

amacca wrote: »

as things stand (because of unbelievable mismanagement and bad bad decisions) if the banks fail you could end up paying an even bigger price than the one being imposed on you [a much much bigger price]

the banks would fail if that 50bn was not available....many of your neighbours/friends/parents/whatever would lose savings etc - imagine the consequences of what you advocate...on you!

I see it as a case of the lesser of two evils at this stage

i know it's too late now because we've already started to invest in the banks but would it have cost us as much (€50bn) had we defaulted, yes we would have been paying 10%+ on our borrowings for a couple of years but after a couple of years with a clean sheet and the right policies we'd have become a more attractive target for investment than the likes of Greece, Portugal, Italy etc. and that borrowing cost would have fallen again...
ICELAND CDS: 295
IRELAND CDS: 750

jonnny68

There's a line you must draw, when you look at what happened in Egypt that wasn't just rioting that was an uprising taking place and in my book was justified, what is happening in London and other city's is nothing to do with someone getting shot even if he was a crack cocaine dealer (that is true) but regardless this was the catalyst for these opportunistic theft and wanton vandalism and arson, disaffected youth my arse i grew up on a working class estate and we had nothing and still haven't but we never went out doing this,there are many ways to get your point across other than this.

If i had my way id lock every single rioter up regardless of age,race,colour or creed period of time, hard labour,make them bast*rds work 12+ hours a day every day, i guarantee you most would learn a valuable lesson.

cournioni

El Sorab wrote: »

I'm not talking specifically about the London riots but the fact that these "toe rags" exist doesn't really say a whole lot about the British government since they have been alienated from the rest of society and become disgruntled in this way. Similar to how in Ireland there are scumbags and the rest of us.

To go around saying these people are scum just distracts from the real issue at hand that the UK is turning into (or is already) a police state and the whole riots are a reaction to the heavy handed British police.

"Scum" are likely the only ones to join a riot because a person with a job and a mortgage and kids and a BMW 7 series has just too much to lose from joining a riot.

Scum also have little chance of improving themselves because of the extensive criminal record/asbo/sex offender system there anyone who has ever done anything bad in the UK is almost permanently banished from society and has their chances of success ruined even if they change their ways. So although they are not part of any political motion they are a symptom of a problem that was indeed caused by politicians.

What a big pile of bollocks.

jonnny68

The cops in London are not equipped to deal with these riots, jaysus the Garda would completely sh*t themselves if faced with something on the scale like this.

I wonder if Cameron will out the Brit army on the streets,if if escalates they'll have no option but do do so!!

Hank_Jones

Surprised nobody has mentioned the rise in college fees in England.

If somebody pretty much ruined my chances of a better education and better life for myself by raising fees to £9,000 a year.

stovelid

I wish that the ferment of a disgruntled ethnic underclass would hurry up here. Have my eye on a top pair of trainers in town and I'm a bit short this month.

--Kaiser--

El Sorab wrote: »

Democracy is pretty much a failed system

I agree.

Democracy is the worst form of government there is........apart from all the others

getz

Hank_Jones wrote: »

Surprised nobody has mentioned the rise in college fees in England.

If somebody pretty much ruined my chances of a better education and better life for myself by raising fees to £9,000 a year.

i do not believe any of them can spell education never mind want one,i am for sending out the OAPs in their mobility scooters ,a couple of cracks on the back of the head with the brolly,and they would run home crying,

the groutch

disappointed we never had a proper riot over here any time since May 2007, would have been 100% justified.

Hank_Jones

getz wrote: »

i do not believe any of them can spell education never mind want one,i am for sending out the OAPs in their mobility scooters ,a couple of cracks on the back of the head with the brolly,and they would run home crying,

Have you been to college here?

A large number wouldn't be able to spell education, doesn't mean that they can't attend college.

We'll also have to take large numbers of English students from 2012, due to EU legislation stating that people within the EU can attend college in any country within the EU.
If I was in their situation, I know I'd be heading over here.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2011/mar/12/english-students-escape-tuition-fee-rise

books4sale

the groutch wrote: »

disappointed we never had a proper riot over here any time since May 2007, would have been 100% justified.

No, it woundn't have been justified, every brick that goes through a window is through someones business or home. :mad:

Tell me how is that justified...attacking the small guy?

karma_

Helix wrote: »

look, these guys arent smashing the place up as some kind of political statement. they're scum who found an excuse to act like utter toerags with very little chance of being caught. its not productive, and theres no thinking behind it beyond "lets wreck the place coz we can"

This is just incorrect. Are the rioters behaving in a totally unacceptable manner? Yes of course they are, but to just mark it down as scumbags doing what scumbags do best is the worst thing you can do.

There has to be an underlying cause to this, and the looting and arson is just the by-product.

cournioni

cournioni wrote: »

What a big pile of bollocks.

And what a shlte comment.. You could at least offer an argument.

getz

Hank_Jones wrote: »

Have you been to college here?

A large number wouldn't be able to spell education, doesn't mean that they can't attend college.

We'll also have to take large numbers of English students from 2012, due to EU legislation stating that people within the EU can attend college in any country within the EU.
If I was in their situation, I know I'd be heading over here.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2011/mar/12/english-students-escape-tuition-fee-rise

never had a chance to get a real education,at 3 years old i was to busy dodging german bombs,left school at 15 no hand outs and futher education then ,its good that english students get a education in ireland,at the end of the day all will be heading to the UK to get jobs.[we have to take them because of EU legislation]

El Sorab

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

I agree.

Democracy is the worst form of government there is........apart from all the others

A good dictatorship is better than a bad democracy. A representative democracy is essentially a dictatorship except there are multiple people involved in the dictating and there is a (long) time limit on how long they can stay around.

amacca wrote: »

the fact that these "toe rags" exist doesnt say a whole lot about themselves

I just love the way when somebody or groups of people do something wrong .... there are always excuses made...usually to to with how deprived etc the "toe rags" in question are

lets blame the government and society for not providing a proper chance in life for the poor looters/rioters

no...lets blame the individuals in question themselves for being scum and then lets blame the criminal ahem "justice" system for not actually punishing these people



the riots are a reaction to an opportunity to get "free stuff" innit like!

if you ask me, the police are not allowed be heavy handed enough...the minute a protestor (rioter/looter) starts throwing bricks etc and walking up to a line of police they should be allowed open up on them



whose fault is that




a lot of the problems last night seemed to be caused by quite young individuals.....I wonder if the above has as much to do with it as you think.

anyway I think the problem isnt that the system is too harsh on the poor offenders....I think the problem is that it is not harsh enough to be a proper deterrent

If the government marginalises a certain group of people it can only go so far before these people stop taking it and retaliate. Like another poster mentioned they have pushed up the college fees making life even harder for 'scum' to improve themselves.

Like it or not the class sytem is alive and well in the UK and its much easier there to get 'doomed to poverty' than in Ireland. You can punish these peasants who step out of line all you want but it will only make the problem worse. The rioting after the murder of a drug dealer (if that's even the case) was probably just the straw that broke the camels back. So more crackdowns will likely spur more violence unless you kill each and every one of them.

You can bang on about how the individual rioters are bad people all you like but there are genuine social problems in the UK. I have noticed it myself over there, I have been treated like a scumbag over there simply because of my demographic, I know a young lad who has been 'randomly' searched on the tube twice in a short space of time.

These people are being needled by the government and society in general and you cant blame them for standing up for themselves. Its unfortunate that violence is the path they choose but you can't blame them. Politically they are highly unlikely to succeed since their education is terrible.

Penn

karma_ wrote: »

This is just incorrect. Are the rioters behaving in a totally unacceptable manner? Yes of course they are, but to just mark it down as scumbags doing what scumbags do best is the worst thing you can do.

There has to be an underlying cause to this, and the looting and arson is just the by-product.

And how many of them do you think actually care what the underlying cause is? While they ransack a JD sports shop grabbing what they can, or petrolbomb a hairdressers, how many do you think are doing it for Mark Duggan? How many do you think even know why the rioting is happening?

There is an underlying cause, but I bet the VAST majority of the rioters don't really give a ****. Especially with riots starting up in other cities now. They can see their chance to loot.

When the riots started, most of them were doing it for the right reasons (though I still disagree with what they did). At this stage, anyone still rioting is doing it for themselves.

"Yeah, let's set fire to a newsagents. That'll really tell 'the man'." Unfortunately, 'the man' is the man who owns the newsagents and has nothing to do with Mark Duggan.

bnt

By "rioting" I'm assuming that includes destruction of property, and that is never good. After previous riots I've heard some idiots saying things like "repairing the damage will boost the local economy", but they've fallen for the broken window fallacy.

moco

karma_ wrote: »

This is just incorrect. Are the rioters behaving in a totally unacceptable manner? Yes of course they are, but to just mark it down as scumbags doing what scumbags do best is the worst thing you can do.

There has to be an underlying cause to this, and the looting and arson is just the by-product.

For a few people at the beginning there may have been an underlying cause, but since then it's been organised robbery and vandalism on a grand scale. They had it organised through BBM from early evening to smash and loot Carphone Warehouse in Ealing at 10.30pm. If this was any kind of protest at the government, why not go to government buildings or the town hall even to 'protest'? What's Carphone Warehouse, the Panasonic shop and the sports shops got to do with it? They were absolutely delighted with themsevles tunning around with new hoodies, trainers and bikes.

Purely an excuse to rob as much and wreck as much as possible with nobody to stop them cos the police were nowhere to be seen. That was the scariest thing, knowing that no matter what happened, like if they broke into my flat I'd be left to deal with it and the police wouldn't even answer the 999 call.

I saw one guy walking up the road on his own, then some guys he knew pulled up beside him in a car to show them what they'd robbed. He said '**** that, I wasn't going to get involved', then he went into his flat and came out 2 mins later with a scarf wrapped round his face and went off to join in.

I must have seen at least 30 TVs going into the flats opposite me.

getz

moco wrote: »

For a few people at the beginning there may have been an underlying cause, but since then it's been organised robbery and vandalism on a grand scale. They had it organised through BBM from early evening to smash and loot Carphone Warehouse in Ealing at 10.30pm. If this was any kind of protest at the government, why not go to government buildings or the town hall even to 'protest'? What's Carphone Warehouse, the Panasonic shop and the sports shops got to do with it? They were absolutely delighted with themsevles tunning around with new hoodies, trainers and bikes.

Purely an excuse to rob as much and wreck as much as possible with nobody to stop them cos the police were nowhere to be seen. That was the scariest thing, knowing that no matter what happened, like if they broke into my flat I'd be left to deal with it and the police wouldn't even answer the 999 call.

I saw one guy walking up the road on his own, then some guys he knew pulled up beside him in a car to show them what they'd robbed. He said '**** that, I wasn't going to get involved', then he went into his flat and came out 2 mins later with a scarf wrapped round his face and went off to join in.

I must have seen at least 30 TVs going into the flats opposite me.

do you no where i can buy a TV ?

books4sale

Two words,

Rioting

Protesting

Rioting is not justifiable.

cournioni

Deleted User wrote: »

And what a shlte comment.. You could at least offer an argument.

I would if I had time to babble on, but I'm at work.

I'll keep it short. I think it is a load of bollocks because El Sorab is more or less trying to excuse these scumbags of their actions due to being "underprivileged". Being underprivileged is no excuse for destroying a whole city and destroying other peoples lives and livelihoods. There are plenty of people in deprived areas who are good decent people who do their best to make an honest living. The people involved in these riots are just scum, no matter what social class they come from.

moco

Where were the parents? Most of these looters were teenagers.