Rogue Saorview/ISAA Logo installers

ISAA

http://www.isaa.tv/?p=87

Since dozens of new business are jumping on the band wagon.
Where putting a listing together.

Open to comments,

watty

No-one can put the Saorview logo on their van. Except maybe RTE-NL

St Senan

watty wrote: »

No-one can put the Saorview logo on their van.

We all Know Installers are not allowed to advertise Saorview. But it is not stopping them. Also Saorview dont seem to be doing much about it There is a add every day on south east radio since last April for a guy selling saorview {XORO mpeg4} receivers. Saorview was told about this Add. All any body has to do to is go on line and see how many guys are using the Saorview name and logo, Read the Adds in Local papers or look on shop notice boards.

weehamster

I think the title of this thread should be "Unauthorised Users of Saorview &/or ISAA logos".

I do understand that this thread is about unauthorised use of certain logos, however I can't help getting the suggestion that anyone who isn't a member of ISAA is a 'Rouge' installer. :cool:

FRIENDO

rogue (rg)
n.
1. An unprincipled, deceitful, and unreliable person; a scoundrel or rascal.

I think rogue is a good choice of wording.
These installers are not saorview certified or trained.
The honest paying public/customers and installers will loose from the actions of these rogue installers.

darth_maul

Think its a bit OTT to brand someone a rogue installer because they use a logo not owned or trademarked by yourselves, You would want to be very careful publishing a company name on your website under the term rogue, you are leaving yourself open legally and it is not something a supposed trade organisation should be involved in, how are you proposing verifing these supposed breaches of SAORVIEW brand guidelines.

Also according to the saorview website

the use of the SAORVIEW logo is only permitted for use in conjunction with SAORVIEW Approved receivers at the point of sale by registered retailers

so how come the same logo is plastered all over your (ISAA) website. If this is in agreement with RTENL you should get them to change the logo brand guidelines so you don't look so hypocritical

ALSO Gerry I suppose you are a freesat approved installer, whats the difference with that, just makes this all seem very hypocritical and petty. BTW above image is hosted on your website.
If you want to go ahead with this little campaign you should be concentrating on printed advertisements that make known false claims (digital aerials, HD aerials, etc) and not worrying about people using someone else's logo without their permission.

Also while I think of it your members (ISAA) and the moderators here, should be insisting you setup a separate account on here and only use the ISAA one for ISAA related announcements, unless every comment you post here is first passed through the committee of said organisation first, Not very professional for one person representing a trade organisation to be posting comments on an open forum (ie are they your personal views or the organisations views) One of the main reasons I haven't joined this organisation yet, seems more like one persons crusade rather than an organisation.

shannon_tek

Im lost by this thread. As i see it. $Money$

So what about the person who does it them selves. cant be that hard to take your sky dish or and 80's dish and apply it to your chimley or wall

Run a cable through your house to the location of your choice.
connect your box and have some loney toon sit or stand by the dish slightly adjusting it till picture perfect.

So all in all your really just grabbing the guy next door to fix your dish cause your scared of heights. But their using the logo just to let you know there not installing Chorus ha ha. Dont Sview make money from this some how some way over the rainbow and far far away.

MrSneeg

http://www.cai.org.uk/information/cai-rogue-traders

the CAI have been doing the same for years,

http://www.saorview.ie/trade-login/installers/

recognised bodies

http://www.cai.org.uk/component/content/article/474

saorview logo on CAI site

http://www.nationalguild.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=106&Itemid=74

Guild of master craftsmen page on use of saorview logo

http://www.isaa.tv/?p=1

the ISAA recognised by saorview

the above 3 trade bodies are allowed to use the logo on thier websites,

individual installers (members of the above or not) are not allowed to use the saorview logo on flyers, newspaper ads, websites etc,

as many installers are advertising non approved equipment as saorview and generic FTA as Freesat, some sort of protection has to be in place for members of the above trade bodies and more importantly the consumer.

darth_maul

MrSneeg wrote: »

http://www.cai.org.uk/information/cai-rogue-traders

the CAI have been doing the same for years,

Yes this is against people claiming to be members of their organisation not using a third parties logo.

MrSneeg wrote: »

individual installers (members of the above or not) are not allowed to use the saorview logo on flyers, newspaper ads, websites etc,

Use of a logo without permission, while against saorviews T&C's, its not necessarily claiming to be something their not, Its RTENL's remit to name and shame should they see fit. Don't see how its any different to the above van carrying the freesat logo.

They fact that other organisations are using the logo doesn't make it right, they clearly state when the logo should and shouldn't be used, you should put them in your rogues gallery. Its a perception thing how can you claim that the logo should only be used in one set scenario then use it yourselves outside the same guidelines.

consumers need to educate themselves somewhat but they can't be expected to know all the terms involved. e.g DTT MPEG 4, HD not SD, Mheg, Freeview HD etc, etc..... I would have no problem with the term "Saorview compatible" term being used for non approved boxes that meet the specifications for saorview at a cheaper price than the approved boxes.

MrSneeg

darth_maul wrote: »

Yes this is against people claiming to be members of their organisation not using a third parties logo.


Use of a logo without permission, while against saorviews T&C's, its not necessarily claiming to be something their not, Its RTENL's remit to name and shame should they see fit. Don't see how its any different to the above van carrying the freesat logo.

They fact that other organisations are using the logo doesn't make it right, they clearly state when the logo should and shouldn't be used, you should put them in your rogues gallery.

In return SAORVIEW will list the Guild as a recognised registration body on its website and in any communication in response to installation queries from the trade or members of the public. The Guild logo will be carried on the SAORVIEW website with a link to the Guild's site. This will drive business to Guild members and will encourage non-members to consider joining the Guild. The Guild will be permitted to carry the SAORVIEW logo on the Guild's website with a link to the SAORVIEW site

the 3 bodies are allowed to use the saorview logo on thier sites

darth_maul

MrSneeg wrote: »

In return SAORVIEW will list the Guild as a recognised registration body on its website and in any communication in response to installation queries from the trade or members of the public. The Guild logo will be carried on the SAORVIEW website with a link to the Guild's site. This will drive business to Guild members and will encourage non-members to consider joining the Guild. The Guild will be permitted to carry the SAORVIEW logo on the Guild's website with a link to the SAORVIEW site

the 3 bodies are allowed to use the saorview logo on thier sites

Talking about the ISAA here not the guild, seems the guild were clever enough to get an agreement on logo usage and clearly display it, also the logo's on the ISAA site do not link back to the saorview webpage, so if they have got the same agreement they are clearly breaking it.

Anyway don't want to get bogged down in "he said she said", basically my point was that its not up to the ISAA to be policing the use of the Saorview logo, this is the registered trademarks holders job, and that calling someone a rogue for doing so is way OTT and a legal minefield for them. Its the ISAA logo that they should be worried about. At the most they could ensure that none of their members are using the saorview logo.

AstralTV

there is an agreement between the ISAA and Saorview, the link does work,

none of our members are using the saorview logo without permission.

its not about 'policing' the Saorview' logo its about protecting members of the association that have met Saorviews stringent guidelines for installers,

FRIENDO

Good work ISAA,

Its about time rogue traders are highlighted in this country, I would like to see more legitimate company's following the ISAA model and helping with protecting the customer.

St Senan

individual installers (members of the above or not) are not allowed to use the saorview logo on flyers, newspaper ads, websites etc,

as many installers are advertising non approved equipment as saorview and generic FTA as Freesat, some sort of protection has to be in place for members of the above trade bodies and more importantly the consumer

As i have said before Saorview dont seem to be doing much about these so called Saorview approved installers, Saorview sales reps and Saorview Agents, Saorview know that their patent Name and Logo is been miss used. The Saorview team were told by many a installer at the Trade Seminar last April that this was going to happen if they didnt regulate this business. What makes the whole Saorview approval system a big joke is that there is a Sales company selling Sky listed on the Saorview website as a APPROVED retailer. Also on the saorview website there is a few hardware shops listed as retailers along with a few guys who must have slipped in unnoticed to the Saorview person who gives approval.

NewHillel

AstralTV wrote: »

its not about 'policing' the Saorview' logo its about protecting members of the association that have met Saorviews stringent guidelines for installers,

This really is a bit rich, even more so on a thread that proports to speak out against "Rogue Installers". The ISAA would be well advised to get their own house in order before attacking others.

Exactly what are these "Stringent Guidelines" and where are they published? They don't exist, and if such guidelines did exist, it wouldn't be within RTE's, or Saorview's, remit to set them.

From the Saorview Site:
The aerial installation trade in Ireland is unregulated at present. SAORVIEW is not in a position to establish the competence of any aerial installer and therefore there is no such thing as a SAROVIEW installer.

Lets be clear, here, unregulated means not controlled by a government or official organisation. It also means:

1. There are no "Saorviews stringent guidelines for installers".

2. The ISAA is a "Trade Association" and not a "Professional Association".

3. Any guidelines that the ISSA care to draw up, have no standing outside that organisation.

4. In recognising the ISAA, Saorview are not certifying the competence, or general suitability, of individual ISAA members.


I could go on...

FRIENDO

Finding an Installer

The aerial installation trade in Ireland is unregulated at present. SAORVIEW is not in a position to establish the competence of any aerial installer and therefore there is no such thing as a SAROVIEW installer. However, SAORVIEW can direct you to a number of trade bodies with competence in this area who undertake vetting and registration of their members. If you require an aerial installer, the following organisations are recognised by SAORVIEW will be able to provide you with a list of registered members in your area.

Confederation of Aerial Industries Ltd.
Irish Satellite and Aerial Association
National Guild of Master Craftsmen

I taught I would copy the entire paragraph.
My understanding is that Saorview are an official organisation and are controlled by the government.
The fact that Saorview are directing the public to the above bodies RE; competence, vetting and registration of members, can only help the the public in getting a honest and good service.
I think it is great that Saorview are helping the public in getting a professional service.

cast_iron

scaller wrote: »

Also on the saorview website there is a few hardware shops listed as retailers along with a few guys who must have slipped in unnoticed to the Saorview person who gives approval.

I've spotted a hardware shop or two in the listing alright. But of those, I know they sell Saorview boxes, so what's the problem?
You don't need to be an installer to be on that list; merely sell the approved boxes.

I don't understand what the big problem is here. Maybe the logo shouldn't be used on a technicality, but I see little harm in it. Like the picture on the van above, I see it as a way of advertising you can provide Saorview boxes. How is that picture okay, but for Saorview it's not.

Saorview don't approve installers or their methods. It's 100% not their job. It's solely Saorview's job to protect their logo, just as it is the ISAA's to protect their own logo.

It's absolutely ridiculous to suggest someone that uses a Saorview logo (similar to the picture on the van above) is automatically a rogue and will provide a poor service. Is it not?

STB

Surprise, surpise, the debate came around to the members of ISAA vs the non members of ISAA.

It would from an outsiders view (not an installer!) seem to me to be in the interest of those in the aerial and satellite trade to at least come under some recognisable umbrella association (like RECI) to distinguish themselves from fly by night merchants, not just for legitmate use of the Saorview logo, but for the protection of their own trade.

Given the way things have gone in the construction industry, there are plenty of ex-sparks/chippies/labourers chancing their arm with sat and aerial installs as its a perfect time for making money from Saorview. Lets face it, as Saorview step up their public information campaign and the ASO campaign increases, the work will be done for them. Chances for plenty of chancers, many of whom will not be engineers or be fully competent as a long term installer. Many may not even have public liability insurance.

RTENL(Saorview) obviously recognise this and have chosen at least to deal with organisations that will at least try and set standards within their own trade and distinguish themselves from these fly by night merchants. From what I have heard, ISAA have agreed with Saorview set amounts (€90/5 ?) for aerial reallignment for example which is good at least for the consumer. Again this is to cut out the fly by night merchants.

And no I dont think using the Saorview logo on a van because you sell retail boxes is suitable cover for doing the installs and chancing your arm with extortionate prices or doing afore mentioned shoddy workmanship. Its already becoming increasing frustrating seeing dodgy installers photoshopping non approved boxes with the Saorview logo.

St Senan

cast_iron;73752654]

I've spotted a hardware shop or two in the listing alright. But of those, I know they sell Saorview boxes, so what's the problem?

Cast Iron . If you were at the Saorview trade Seminar in Dublin Last April you would have heard the Saorview Team say to the Installers there that they want to work with the local long term Established installers. You would have also heard them Say that the only Electrical retail Shops would be Approved to Sell Saorview Branded IDTV's and Saorview Branded settop boxes. Now you have some sales guy in a HARDWARE shop selling say 10 lengths of 4/2 PAO timber to a customer and then his next sale is a Saorview box and Aerial and he is explaining to the Person how to install it. Or some person going around Door to Door selling Sky/Broadband and now Saorview. And that is happening.

You don't need to be an installer to be on that list; merely sell the approved boxes.

Installers are not supposed to be on the Saorview retailers list only Electric retail Shops Selling T.V.s.

I don't understand what the big problem is here. Maybe the logo shouldn't be used on a technicality, but I see little harm in it. Like the picture on the van above, I see it as a way of advertising you can provide Saorview boxes. How is that picture okay, but for Saorview it's not.

I like many another installer can't use the Saorview logo in my Add, Website and on my Van. We are the long term installers not the guys who advertise on Donedeal/Gumtree/ or a homemade Flyer stuck up on a shop notice board with only a 1st name and a mobile number on it.

Saorview don't approve installers or their methods. It's 100% not their job. .

Thats why Saorview have asked the ISAA. The National Guild and The CAI. to check that the Aerial Riggers work is up to Standard they are paying Tax and carry Pl insurance. There is no way that some guy who is only installing Dishes and Aerials missuing saorview logos to make a quick buck will join any of the Above 3.

It's solely Saorview's job to protect their logo, just as it is the ISAA's to protect their own logo

But Saorview seem to be doing nothing about protecting ther Patent logo. They are well aware that their Logo is Blatantly been used by Chancers out to make a Quick killing.

It's absolutely ridiculous to suggest someone that uses a Saorview logo (similar to the picture on the van above) is automatically a rogue and will provide a poor service. Is it not?

The guys that are using the Saorview logo Know that the Long Term Aerial rigger cant and wont use it. So now these 1st name and Moible number guys have a advantage selling his cheap Mpeg4 box and some piss poor Aerial fitted on a Satellite bracket to front or side of some poor unfortunates house.

These Guys are not providing a full Name, Address and land-line phone number on these Adds but they are using someone else's Patent Logo.
The 3 recognised bodies are there to let people know that what they are getting is a legit installer who's work is of a high standard and not someone who is a Chimney driller or is going to stick a wide band Aerial over some ones front door.

MrSneeg

NewHillel wrote: »

This really is a bit rich, even more so on a thread that proports to speak out against "Rogue Installers". The ISAA would be well advised to get their own house in order before attacking others.

Exactly what are these "Stringent Guidelines" and where are they published? They don't exist, and if such guidelines did exist, it wouldn't be within RTE's, or Saorview's, remit to set them.

From the Saorview Site:
The aerial installation trade in Ireland is unregulated at present. SAORVIEW is not in a position to establish the competence of any aerial installer and therefore there is no such thing as a SAROVIEW installer.

Lets be clear, here, unregulated means not controlled by a government or official organisation. It also means:

1. There are no "Saorviews stringent guidelines for installers".

2. The ISAA is a "Trade Association" and not a "Professional Association".

3. Any guidelines that the ISSA care to draw up, have no standing outside that organisation.

4. In recognising the ISAA, Saorview are not certifying the competence, or general suitability, of individual ISAA members.


I could go on...

what with more factless, unsupported, nonsense. please do.

Ronnie Raygun

MrSneeg wrote: »

what with more factless, unsupported, nonsense. please do.

Everything in that post is fact, no need for 'support', facts speak for themselves.

ISAA is obviously a good thing but they seem to need putting right about what a trade organisation actually is.

MrSneeg

Ronnie Raygun wrote: »

Everything in that post is fact, no need for 'support', facts speak for themselves.

ISAA is obviously a good thing but they seem to need putting right about what a trade organisation actually is.

how is it ?

because you and New Hilliel say so,

FRIENDO

Ronnie Raygun wrote: »

Everything in that post is fact, no need for 'support', facts speak for themselves.

No. That post is not the full fact, the poster picked two sentences from a four line paragraph which obviously does not show the full picture.

The points been made not fact, can be challenged.

ted1

Reci and the isaa are two different things. The isaa are like dentists calling themselves medical doctors

St Senan

ted1 wrote: »

Reci and the isaa are two different things. The isaa are like dentists calling themselves medical doctors

What would you Describe or class the National Guild of master-craftsmen and Confederation of Aerial Installers as then.

AstralTV

ted1 wrote: »

Reci and the isaa are two different things. The isaa are like dentists calling themselves medical doctors

yes and they are obviously touching a few raw nerves,

Ronnie Raygun

Don't forget this thread started with a suggestion to draw up a list of 'rogue traders', which for a barely established organisation seems like almost unbelievable stupidity.

You don't want to lose all your credibility before ISAA is even properly off the ground.

FRIENDO

Ronnie Raygun wrote: »

Don't forget this thread started with a suggestion to draw up a list of 'rogue traders', which for a barely established organisation seems like almost unbelievable stupidity.

You don't want to lose all your credibility before ISAA is even properly off the ground.

The fact that SAORVIEW have recommended:
Confederation of Aerial Industries Ltd.
Irish Satellite and Aerial Association (ISAA)
National Guild of Master Craftsmen

Shows that the ISAA and the other organisations are all professional company's.
Hopefully it will save the public from using some of the unprincipled, deceitful, and unreliable (rogue) cowboy/installers portraying themselves as saorview installers.

Ronnie Raygun

Nobody is disputing the Saorview endorsement of ISAA, but if ISAA start policing the use of the trademark on RTE's (or whoever's) behalf, rather than simply raising their concerns with the relevant authority, they're going to look a bit foolish to say the least.

joolsveer

FRIENDO wrote: »

............

Shows that the ISAA and the other organisations are all professional company's

What does this mean? Any company is professional if it charges for its services. Is the ISAA a company?

NewHillel

FRIENDO wrote: »

The fact that SAORVIEW have recommended:
Confederation of Aerial Industries Ltd.
Irish Satellite and Aerial Association (ISAA)
National Guild of Master Craftsmen

Shows that the ISAA and the other organisations are all professional company's.

The ISAA is recognised by Saorview, not recommended.
The ISAA provides no evidence of incorporation, on its website.

STB wrote: »

It would from an outsiders view (not an installer!) seem to me to be in the interest of those in the aerial and satellite trade to at least come under some recognisable umbrella association (like RECI) to distinguish themselves from fly by night merchants, not just for legitmate use of the Saorview logo, but for the protection of their own trade.

There is no issue with the aerial and satellite trade forming a Trade Association. There is an issue when the ISAA attempt to misrepresent themselves as having an enforcement role, which is the underlying tenure of this thread. Your comparison with RECI could unintentionally mislead, also. A better comparison is with the CAI or National Guild of Master-Craftsmen.

(The Commission for Energy Regulation (CER) is the independent body responsible for regulating the electricity and natural gas sectors in Ireland. RECI is appointed by the Commission for Energy Regulation to carry out the function of regulating electrical contractors with respect to safety on its behalf. Further information on Bodies in Ireland With Regulatory Powers here.)

FRIENDO wrote: »

My understanding is that Saorview are an official organisation and are controlled by the government.

Indeed they are, but they have no regulatory function. The aerial installation trade in Ireland is unregulated at present. Any rules made by organisations such as the ISAA have no statutory backing and impact on their own membership only. There is no question of such rules applying, or being enforced, outside that organisation. If regulation were to come it is likely that The Commission for Communications Regulation (COMREG) would be the Regulatory Authority. It most certainly would not be Saorview, which is itself a regulated body.

FRIENDO

joolsveer wrote: »

What does this mean? Any company is professional if it charges for its services. Is the ISAA a company?

Professional;
following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain:

Not misleading the public with false claims as Saorview installers.

Company;
a number of individuals assembled or associated together; group of people.

I hope this explains.

FRIENDO

NewHillel wrote: »

The ISAA is recognised by Saorview, not recommended.
.

The aerial installation trade in Ireland is unregulated at present. SAORVIEW is not in a position to establish the competence of any aerial installer and therefore there is no such thing as a SAROVIEW installer. However, SAORVIEW can direct you to a number of trade bodies with competence in this area who undertake vetting and registration of their members. If you require an aerial installer, the following organisations are recognised by SAORVIEW will be able to provide you with a list of registered members in your area.

Confederation of Aerial Industries Ltd.
Irish Satellite and Aerial Association
National Guild of Master Craftsmen

Ok I'll replace recommend with Direct as used in the SAORVIEW website, thanks for the link.

Direct;
to manage or guide by advice, helpful information,

Recommend;
to present as worthy of confidence, acceptance, use, etc.; commend; mention favorably: to recommend an applicant for a job;

NewHillel

FRIENDO wrote: »

Professional;
following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain:
Not misleading the public with false claims as Saorview installers.

Company;
a number of individuals assembled or associated together; group of people.

I hope this explains.

It explains better than you think.

The common business usage of 'Company' is: a voluntary association formed and organized to carry on a business.

Quite frankly, there is a big question as to exactly who the rogue installers are. I, for one, will not be recommending the ISAA.

(And before you suggest otherwise, I have no connection with any other competing body or group. I am simply disgusted at some of the posts in this forum and the poor quality of much of the advice handed out. Instead of being a useful resource for the public, the Terrestrial and Satellite forums are a minefield for the unwary. This particular thread is a new low!)

cast_iron

scaller wrote: »

cast_iron;73752654]
If you were at the Saorview trade Seminar in Dublin Last April you would have heard the Saorview Team say to the Installers there that they want to work with the local long term Established installers.

Maybe they did, I wasn't there. But that was always going to be nonsense. Even Tesco sells them now. That's how it will be.

I like many another installer can't use the Saorview logo in my Add, Website and on my Van. We are the long term installers not the guys who advertise on Donedeal/Gumtree/ or a homemade Flyer stuck up on a shop notice board with only a 1st name and a mobile number on it.

I don't disagree with any of that. But carrying a Saorview icon doesn't carry any weight as proving someones competency at installs. Do you know if the van pictured above proves that company is competent?

The guys that are using the Saorview logo Know that the Long Term Aerial rigger cant and wont use it. So now these 1st name and Moible number guys have a advantage selling his cheap Mpeg4 box and some piss poor Aerial fitted on a Satellite bracket to front or side of some poor unfortunates house.

I'm not sure they do. Sure freesat logos seem to be okay to carry.

These Guys are not providing a full Name, Address and land-line phone number on these Adds but they are using someone else's Patent Logo.
The 3 recognised bodies are there to let people know that what they are getting is a legit installer who's work is of a high standard and not someone who is a Chimney driller or is going to stick a wide band Aerial over some ones front door.

We know all that and I don't have any issue with that. That's not what those people criticising are saying at all though.

St Senan

What this thread has turned into is a TIT for TAT. And like all the Threads that have turned into argy bargy between Installers, IT guys and Electricans it will be probably locked soon. It seems that some Guys here have grievances with some of the Installers here or the ISAA installers here.

I am not a member of The ISAA. I am not taking sides here.


Cast Iron I was at the seminar last April i heard what Mary Curtis said regarding Saorview wanting to work with us local installers.What i am saying is that it Seems Saorview are not doing Enough to stop 1st name and mobile number guys from misusing the saorview logo.

I also dont agree that DIY hardware shops and Sky sales companies are classed as registerd retailers. When there is Installers who are selling Satellite and Aerial Equipment who are registerd as Sole Traders who cannot use the logo to promote there buisness. There is 1 guy here in Wexford who has an Add on the Radio selling Saorview when we all Know he is supplying a {xoro} mpeg4 receiver.
Surely there is something wrong there.

cast_iron

scaller wrote: »

What i am saying is that it Seems Saorview are not doing Enough to stop 1st name and mobile number guys from misusing the sarview logo.

It's not tit for tat really.

And come on, you were saying more than that. The ISAA have called people that misuse the logo rogues. You are the only one to thanks that post, so you are obvious agreement with the idea.

That's what this thread is about and the ISAA stance is nothin short of ridiculous.

I also dont agree that DIY hardware shops and Sky sales companies are classed as registerd retailers. When there is Installers who are selling Satellite and Aerial Equipment who are registerd as Sole Traders who cannot use the logo to promote there buisness. There is 1 guy here in Wexford who has an Add on the Radio selling Saorview when we all Know he is supplying a {xoro} mpeg4 receiver.
Surely there is something wrong there.

While you may have a point, that's not the issue at hand in this thread.

Now the ISAA won't even respond anymore. I'm still waiting for an answer as to how the freesat logo above is ok but saorview's is not. Can you shed any light on this?

staker

scaller wrote: »

There is 1 guy here in Wexford who has an Add on the Radio selling Saorview when we all Know he is supplying a {xoro} mpeg4 receiver.

Buy 1 box get 2 free scones?

St Senan

It's not tit for tat really.

What is it then.

And come on, you were saying more than that. The ISAA have called people that misuse the logo rogues. You are the only one to thanks that post, so you are obvious agreement with the idea.

I thanked that post because I do agree with Name and Shame.

That's what this thread is about and the ISAA stance is nothin short of ridiculous.

As i have said in my previous post am not a member of the ISAA so i cant answer for them.

While you may have a point, that's not the issue at hand in this thread.

I air my grievances in any thread started about Saorview, Satellite systems,and chancers/cowboys which is what i done here about Hardwareshops selling Timber and Saorview boxes which you dont seem to have a problem with so that tells me you are not a Aerial rigger/installer.

Now the ISAA won't even respond anymore. I'm still waiting for an answer as to how the freesat logo above is ok but saorview's is not. Can you shed any light on this?

Again I say i cant answer for the ISAA as i am not 1 of there members.

cast_iron

scaller wrote: »

What is it then.

People are fudging around the issue at hand. The ISAA have asked for our opinions on them calling people rogue installers because they carry a Saorview logo. Very little of the pro side has argued why this is a good idea, and rather fudged the issue into "there's loads of cowboys doing all sorts wrong and it's terrible. Go ISAA".

There are, and it may well be terrible, but I'd rather see people argue the point in question.
The issue at hand is the ISAA naming and calling people rogue installers because they use the Saorview logo.

I thanked that post because I do agree with Name and Shame.

But the ISAA is classing them as rogue installers if they use the Saorview logo. Using the logo proves nothing about their installation competency.

I air my grievances in any thread started about Saorview, Satellite systems,and chancers/cowboys which is what i done here about Hardwareshops selling Timber and Saorview boxes which you dont seem to have a problem with so that tells me you are not a Aerial rigger/installer.

What I am is neither here nor there. My point and argument stands on its own merits.

St Senan

I don't agree that DIY hardware shops and Sky ASA agents are approved Retailers and that Established installers cant use a logo to sell Saorview.
So I will let the TIT for TAT continue between the IT/Electricians and the ISAA.

cast_iron

scaller wrote: »

I don't agree that DIY hardware shops and Sky ASA agents are approved Retailers and that Established installers cant use a logo to sell Saorview.

They are 2 separate arguments you are making.

I'm sorry, but you are sadly mistaken if you think large stores/ retail chains, etc won't be allowed to sell Saorview boxes. Anyone can go in to a shop and buy one. I shouldn't be restricted to tv shops only. Just like a dvd player - if I want to buy mine in Tesco, who are the the people who established dvd to say otherwise?

Saorview isn't a magical special service that needs regulation in selling. If I want advice on an aerial install, Tesco won't be much use - the local tv man is where I should go.

Secondly, you have a problem with established installers not being allowed use the Saorview logo. The ISAA are arguing that they will persecute those established installers who do use it!
And you originally said you are in favour of naming those who do as "rogues".

What do you make of those using freesat logos on their vans?

So I will let the TIT for TAT continue between the IT/Electricians and the ISAA.

I wish the ISAA would. They've gone all quiet all of a sudden.

dellWlan

cast_iron wrote: »

But the ISAA is classing them as rogue installers if they use the Saorview logo. Using the logo proves nothing about their installation competency.

And nothing short of an examination of their work would, but it could speak to their attitude. Incorrect use of the logo points to either ignorance of the correct use or a blatent disregard for it. Neither a good sign.

cast_iron

dellWlan wrote: »

And nothing short of an examination of their work would, but it could speak to their attitude. Incorrect use of the logo points to either ignorance of the correct use or a blatent disregard for it. Neither a good sign.

Well you make a valid point. But the whole point I'm making is that for an organisation that purports to be professional in operation and is trying to establish itself as a credible body to oversee regulation of the industry to automatically class these people as "rogue installer" is a step too far.

St Senan

What do Guys here make of Electricians double jobbing. wiring houses Installing Alarms/ CCTV systems and now that the building boom is finished they are wanting to install Dishes and Aerials.

NewHillel

dellWlan wrote: »

And nothing short of an examination of their work would, but it could speak to their attitude. Incorrect use of the logo points to either ignorance of the correct use or a blatent disregard for it. Neither a good sign.

Then the same charge could be equally levelled against the ISAA as they are using the Freesat logo on their website and at least some vans. They were also using the "forbidden" term "Digital Aerial", until I posted about it. Talk about double standards!

St Senan

cast_iron wrote: »

I'm sorry, but you are sadly mistaken if you think large stores/ retail chains, etc won't be allowed to sell Saorview boxes.
.

How are a DIY Hardware shop and a Sky digital door to door sales company a large store or retail chain.

NewHillel

scaller wrote: »

What do Guys here make of Electricians double jobbing. wiring houses Installing Alarms/ CCTV systems and now that the building boom is finished they are wanting to install Dishes and Aerials.

It's going off topic, but multi-skilling is the way all trades are going. You could argue that Satellite Installers are moving in on electricians territory, I don't by the way, as the most critical elements of such installations is the power and earthing. Anyone with the necessary skills and training should be able to move into any area.

I recently paid €12k for a private alarm inatallation from a well known firm. It was a shambles. I eventually sorted it out myself. Many years ago I attended a professional alarm installer training, from one of the biggest firms in the country. This guy didn't even have the basics. As for setting up remote monitoring, over the Internet...

What's important is that the person doing the work has the necessary skills and competencies. Not how many countries they worked in, the companies they worked for, or their primary trade. Where a trade, or profession is regulated, it is also important that they are certified to carry out the work. In many cases, getting that certification is not difficult. (In some cases it is far too easy.)

cast_iron

scaller wrote: »

What do Guys here make of Electricians double jobbing. wiring houses Installing Alarms/ CCTV systems and now that the building boom is finished they are wanting to install Dishes and Aerials.

Tha'ts dragging this well off-topic. Though to use it as a comparison to this case, it would be like RECI/PSA deciding to name and shame these guys. It's the Social Welfare peoples job to police this issue.

scaller wrote: »

How are a DIY Hardware shop and a Sky digital door to door sales company a large store or retail chain.

Well I'd rather you argued my main points rather than nit-pick on things like that.
In answer, I wouldn't view either of them as an less competent retailers than Tesco.

NewHillel

cast_iron wrote: »

Tha'ts dragging this well off-topic. Though to use it as a comparison to this case, it would be like RECI/PSA deciding to name and shame these guys. It's the Social Welfare peoples job to police this issue.

Name and shame them for what? Electricians are perfectly entitled to install Alarms, CCTV or Satellite Systems - none of these areas are regulated.
Neither is there anything for social Welfare to police, once benefit isnt being claimed fraudulently.

cast_iron

NewHillel wrote: »

Name and shame them for what? Electricians are perfectly entitled to install Alarms, CCTV or Satellite Systems - none of these areas are regulated.
Neither is there anything for social Welfare to police, once benefit isnt being claimed fraudulently.

Installation of alarms is regulated. As are electrical installations. Satellites are not. I don't think CCTV is either.

For some reason I read scaller's "double-jobbing" as meaning those on the dole. My mistake - of course the revenue commisioners is the relevant authority assuming they are not declaring the income.