"Let's boot out muggers"

Kivaro

I wonder if we are mature enough to discuss the article on the Irish Independent, where Eamon Delaney discusses the behavior of some Roma gypsies. I am actually surprised to see this topic in a national newspaper (que the usual retort about the Sindo ...), but isn't about time that the matter was debated without the usual name-throwing.

I left Ireland a number of years ago partly due to the welfare state mentality and the lack of an adequate response to this and other social issues. Having to put up with an apathetic electorate with the corresponding benign political structure AND the Irish weather was a bit too much for me. I still have a stake in the country with one parent, multiple siblings and many friends regaling me with stories about Roma gypsies mugging the vulnerable, while at the same time enjoying the benefits of free housing and all the other goodies that the Irish taxpayer endow on them.

Here are some interesting questions in the article:

• If Australia, and the US can cherry-pick their immigrants, then why has a small country like Ireland ended up with all these aggressive beggars in their big skirts?
• And if it is an obligation of the EU membership, which supposedly gives us so many benefits, then how come President Sarkozy in France can quite rightly have the Roma booted out of Paris where they were also a menace?
• But why do we have to put up with it? That is what everyone asks. And why do the politicians do nothing, and say nothing?

The rest of the article is here: http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/france-is-right-lets-boot-out-muggers-2841829.html

glic71rods46t0

I read this article too and was surprised that the Sindo published it.

mikemac

When Romania and Bugaria entered the EU as I understand their citizens can come to Ireland for three months or if they are going to setup a business
Yes, I know not all Roma are Romanians before you quote me.

But I'm seeing the same faces here for years and around the same streets and coming into Dublin city centre on the Luas every morning
Where are the Gardaí and their immigration division?
Name, address and when did you enter Ireland and let them prove it.

Maybe one day violence will break out and we'll see a Belfast solution where people are chased and terroized out a street. That was just a few years ago

p1akuw47h5r3it

Tbh I've never heard of a Roma Gypsy mugging anyone, nor have I read any news articles about Gypsys mugging anyone.

sickpuppy

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Tbh I've never heard of a Roma Gypsy mugging anyone, nor have I read any news articles about Gypsys mugging anyone.

Not every mugging involves smashing someone and grabbing there bag or phone.
In my own town a few mostly older women were conned by roma gypsys asking for change of a 20 euro note being trusting old women a couple have had there hand bags robbed while there distarcted by these <snip>.

I straight away tell them to **** off when they approach me begging or at an atm or when having a drink outdoors in the city in the evening
what do these people offer to ireland?

mikemac

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Tbh I've never heard of a Roma Gypsy mugging anyone, nor have I read any news articles about Gypsys mugging anyone.

I'd agree I've not heard of reports of assaults and violent muggings from them
But issues like distracting people and getting in your face at an ATM were widely reported

I suppose Ireland is just getting in recent years what Europe already had.
Last time I was in Rome the metro had lots of them begging and I didn't see anyone move them on

RMD

I entirely support allowing immigrants into Ireland who will benefit the country but when it comes to the Roma they really, really piss me off.

Every Roma I've ever encountered has been begging / hassling people for money. They're nasty and ungrateful, I do charity soup-runs around the city and whenever we offer them food / tea, they demand more, are rude throughout talking to them and never say thanks. They seem to have the mentality that they deserve to go through life living on handouts and the proceeds of crime without ever giving back to society in anyway.

The problem is they're an ethnic group, not a population of an original area. To deport them you must first prove where they came from which can be a number of countries, can't just claim they're Romanians and send them there.

p1akuw47h5r3it

sickpuppy wrote: »

Not every mugging involves smashing someone and grabbing there bag or phone.
In my own town a few mostly older women were conned by roma gypsys asking for change of a 20 euro note being trusting old women a couple have had there hand bags robbed while there distarcted by these <snip>.

I straight away tell them to **** off when they approach me begging or at an atm or when having a drink outdoors in the city in the evening
what do these people offer to ireland?

Fair enough point, my point was that I just don't think this activity is as widespread as the article seems to make out.

And they offer little to nothing to Ireland.

Also in the cases you refer to where the offenders prosecuted in anyway, and if so what happened then?

p1akuw47h5r3it

RMD wrote: »

I entirely support allowing immigrants into Ireland who will benefit the country but when it comes to the Roma they really, really piss me off.

Every Roma I've ever encountered has been begging / hassling people for money. They're nasty and ungrateful, I do charity soup-runs around the city and whenever we offer them food / tea, they demand more, are rude throughout talking to them and never say thanks. They seem to have the mentality that they deserve to go through life living on handouts and the proceeds of crime without ever giving back to society in anyway.

The problem is they're an ethnic group, not a population of an original area. To deport them you must first prove where they came from which can be a number of countries, can't just claim they're Romanians and send them there.

Ye I pretty much agree with all this. But is this behaviour just simply part of their culture??

mikemac wrote: »

I'd agree I've not heard of reports of assaults and violent muggings from them
But issues like distracting people and getting in your face at an ATM were widely reported

I suppose Ireland is just getting in recent years what Europe already had.
Last time I was in Rome the metro had lots of them begging and I didn't see anyone move them on

Ye I have experienced this myself and heard about it, just not muggings etc. as you say.

charlemont

RMD wrote: »

I entirely support allowing immigrants into Ireland who will benefit the country but when it comes to the Roma they really, really piss me off.

Every Roma I've ever encountered has been begging / hassling people for money. They're nasty and ungrateful, I do charity soup-runs around the city and whenever we offer them food / tea, they demand more, are rude throughout talking to them and never say thanks. They seem to have the mentality that they deserve to go through life living on handouts and the proceeds of crime without ever giving back to society in anyway.

The problem is they're an ethnic group, not a population of an original area. To deport them you must first prove where they came from which can be a number of countries, can't just claim they're Romanians and send them there.

All the other immigrant groups hate them as they have experience of them in their own countries, Loads of foreigners I know actually couldn't understand why we left so many of them in.

SHOVELLER

Brave article and he is spot on with what is going on in Phibsboro.

Shame he couldnt have added something on how all beggars should be off our streets irrespective of nationality. There are enough Irish beggars out there openly flouting the law.

Lastly if you get a train from Germany to Denmark there is no passport control.

BTW is there a link to his previous article?

Chuck Stone

We live in a welfare state. There is little justification for begging.

It's a difficult problem to deal with though because the people who beg are often being orchestrated by more powerful individuals and thus to punish such beggars is like punishing already oppressed people.

Sir Oxman

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Fair enough point, my point was that I just don't think this activity is as widespread as the article seems to make out.

And they offer little to nothing to Ireland.

Also in the cases you refer to where the offenders prosecuted in anyway, and if so what happened then?

FYP.

Are there any Roma in legal employment in this country?

RMD

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Now when will we be booting out Ahern, Cowen, Fingleton and Fitzpatrick etc. ? Perhaps they are too tough for the brave "journalist". I'm not cruel, jail them instead will do me fine.

The etc. is deliberate as I like to put all thieving scumbags into the same pot.

My apologies to the Roma beggars - none of you have yet robbed me. The four named above have.

Problem is, find a crime Ahern and Cowen committed, saying "they bankrupted Ireland" isn't enough. A file has been sent to the DPP for Fitzpatrick and I'm not sure of Fingleton. You can't just take them to court and charge them with pissing off the general public, proving they did something wrong and constructing a sound case is hard under the justice system we have.

Laisurg

I agree 100% and not just Roma gypsys but anyone else who comes into the country and commits crimes especially something as sick as targeting the elderly, it's just a joke really letting virtually anyone in.

Fulton Crown

Look !

The cnunt is bulletproof,,,sure he did well on the Northern Peace process but he raped the country with his sh1te about dig outs etc.

The real cnunt here is Fingers ...nasty little bollix who accepted a 27 million pension pot and a 21k watch while he drove his business into the ground .

But who were the fcukwits on the Board of nationwide who allowed this to happen ...bet you don't know even one nane ...

Why not....:eek:

Fulton Crown

Look !

The cnunt is bulletproof,,,sure he did well on the Northern Peace process but he raped the country with his sh1te about dig outs etc.

The real cnunt here is Fingers ...nasty little bollix who accepted a 27 million pension pot and a 21k watch while he drove his business into the ground .

But who were the fcukwits on the Board of nationwide who allowed this to happen ...bet you don't know even one name ...

Why not....:eek:

p1akuw47h5r3it

gambiaman wrote: »

FYP.

Are there any Roma in legal employment in this country?

I don't know, are there?

RoundyMooney

Leaving the Roma and other assorted scavengers (homegrown or otherwise) aside for a moment, one thing that drives me up the wall any time a debate arises in respect of anything which results in exchequer expense, be it welfare, the public sector paybill, immigration policy etc., there's always someone along to muddy the waters by citing the grasping politicians and bankers.

I know it, they know it, we all know that the banks have crippled the economy, hand in hand with the governmental gombeens and assorted hangers on, all slurping at the trough for their own enrichment.

But just because the national debt has spiralled as a result of cheap money, poor regulation and political greed, it doesn't follow that other sources of waste and inefficiency can be cast aside to suit certain agendas.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

cavedave

Anyone who commits a crime should be punished in accordance with the law.

RoundyMooney

Two wrongs don't make a right.

They dont but that does not mean that someone pointing out the major causes of problems in society is necessarily wrong.

Morgan Kelly predicted the downturn would lead to people blaming Europe and Travellers here

Within five years, both Civil War parties are likely to have been brushed aside by a hard right, anti-Europe, anti-Traveller party that, inconceivable as it now seems, will leave us nostalgic for the, usually, harmless buffoonery of Biffo, Inda, and their chums.

some rob you with a sixgun some with a fountain pen

AlekSmart

One thing the Romaesque folk do NOT like,is having their photo taken.....For some obscure reason they do not want an identity,although equally oddly they have apparently enough of an identity to merit Social payments from some Irish source....;)

Get those camera's out !!!

PS,Interesting bit of background here...

http://www.eliznik.org.uk/RomaniaHistory/minority-gypsies.htm

The Gypsy way of life still leads to hostilities from the people of their host nations. Europeans regard "private property" as sacrosanct, whereas gypsies do not have a word for "possess", which gives rise to two incompatible ways of life and a continual problem of gypsies being regarded as "thieves" from the European's view.

So...it's actually our fault after all.......

paddyandy

Ireland is far too divided a nation....What ever good idea comes along the others will block it.

mikemac

paddyandy wrote: »

Ireland is far too divided a nation....What ever good idea comes along the others will block it.

Ah but you're in Dublin
Grand for you with your fancy Luas, Dart, IFSC, multiple hospitals and more

We are being ignored here in the Midlands, we demand investment and IDA jobs
It's only fair :pac:

MadsL

I'm very familar with Roma, having run a business on Václavské náměstí (Wenceslas Square) in Prague. This was Roma pickpocket central - they even got a silver bracelet off me once! Trust me, the Roma here are nothing compared to those pro pickpocket gangs. Incredible to watch.

Now, the question is why are they (large brush of tar) like that? And that was the question I tried at the time to find an answer to...are they just 'bad' people??

The popular image of Romanies as tramps and thieves unfit for work contributed to their widespread persecution. This belief is often cited as the etymological source of the term gyp, meaning to "cheat", as in "I got gypped by a con man." The German name Zigeuner is often thought through popular etymology to derive either from Ziehende Gauner, which means 'travelling thieves', or from the Hungarian Cigány from their word "szegény" meaning "poor". The validity of these derivations, however, is disputed.

They have had thousands of years of effectively being called thieves and beggars and suffering incredible persecution. Google some historic events and come up with at least 500 years of relentless persecution. A few interesting snippets...

1445. Prince Vlad Dracul of Wallachia (yes, Dracula!!) transports some 12,000 persons "who looked like Egyptians" from Bulgaria for slave labour.

1504. Roma are prohibited by Louis XII from living in France.

1526. The first anti-Gypsy laws are passed in Holland and Portugal.

In 1530 the first law was passed expelling Gypsies from England. Henry VIII forbids the transportation of Gypsies into England. The fine is forty pounds for ship's owner or captain. The Gypsy passengers are punished by hanging.

In 1596 106 men and women were condemned to death at York just for being Gypsies, but only 9 are executed as the others proved they were born in England.
In 1560 Spanish legislation forbids Gitanos of travelling in groups of more than two

In the 17th Century Gypsies were still being executed and transported to America.

In the 18th Century the Dutch tried to expel all Gypsies, chased them down when they chartered ships to escape to America and forced them overboard. In Central Europe it was legal to own Romani slaves up until 1856.


In 1922 in Germany registers were kept of all Roma to deal with "the Gypsy Menace"

In the 19th Century in Holland Richard Liebich's work on Roma introduces the phrase "lives unworthy of life" with specific reference to them, and later used as a racial category against Roma in Nazi Germany. This justification fuels the murder of 500,000 Gypsies by the Nazis. Gypsies refer to this as the "Devouring".

The 20th Century has not been much kinder, the dissolution of the CSSR left over 100,000 Roma in both new states without a nationality, literally with no way of obtaining a passport. In Central Europe walls between Roma and 'native' populations become political footballs
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatnews/6650958/Anti-Roma-wall-through-Slovak-village-provokes-outcry.html
City Authorities Build Ghetto Wall in Usti nad Labem, Czech Republic

Human rights organisations have expressed concerns about forced or coerced sterlization of Roma women http://dreamzz2020.blogspot.com/2009/03/sterile-dreams-forced-sterilization-of.html

UN Torture Committee Again Rules Against Police Abuse of Roma in Serbia and Montenegro

Some countries in the 21st Century have rounded up Roma and deported them "home" - eg France, Denmark, Germany, Sweden, Finland.

Are there any Roma in legal employment in this country?

They face a similar problem to Travellers, find me an employer who will hire them faced with these above deep seated prejudicies.

Gyspies, Roma, Travellers, Gitanos, Manouches, called many different names around Europe, but almost universally dispised. Unemployment runs between 70% - 100% in most countries. Is it any wonder that an ethnic group so utterly dispossessed takes what it can from it's host society?

And the next time Charlie Chaplin makes you laugh or you are watching Yul Brynner in The Magnificent Seven...Romani heritage. Tapping your foot to that tune - Django Reinhart, Adam Ant or the Stones (Ronnie Wood). You may never of heard of August Krogh, but he's a Nobel prize winning physiologist, and Romani too.

Easier though just to regard them as someone elses problem and brush centuries of inhuman treatment under the carpet and deport them. I can't think of a single other ethnic group that it would be now acceptable to say "deport the lot of them".

The last line of the Indo article however made my jaw drop... "Irish people would never be allowed to behave like this." Yeah, right. I constantly have to deal with "have ya spare change bud" at the LUAS (Irish), much of the anti social behaviour in my neighbour hood is drunk street drinkers (Irish) junkies shooting up in my apartment stairways (Irish).

And the fact that this "crimewave" type article fails to mention the drop in crimes http://www.independent.ie/national-news/new-interactive-crime-map-reveals-crime-rate-is-declining-2827727.html covers what a stitch up job this so-called journalist did on the Roma. Utter hate-crime passed off as 'journalism'. Shocking for an ex-diplomat. I guess he wanted to rejoin the commonweath for the racial purity :rolleyes:

Incidentially Mr Delaney, I have an different passport than you so I guess you are not calling for people as whole to be safe...
"Why should Irish people be afraid to walk on their neighbourhood streets?"

Kivaro

RoundyMooney wrote: »

But just because the national debt has spiralled as a result of cheap money, poor regulation and political greed, it doesn't follow that other sources of waste and inefficiency can be cast aside to suit certain agendas.

I wonder if it's a deflection mechanism used by posters who want to see the continuation of the status quo i.e. start talking about the bankers when it's a different topic at hand.

cavedave wrote:

Morgan Kelly predicted the downturn would lead to people blaming Europe and Travellers here.

I don't understand what this has to do with anything.
Surely you don't believe that some people think that Roma gypsies are partially responsible for the downturn? (Rhetorical)

MadsL

Surely you don't believe that some people think that Roma gypsies are partially responsible for the downturn?

We have a limited pot of money as a country. Any under-class in a society often get blamed for societies ills. Asylum-seeker, Nigerians, Travellers, Roma Gypsies, you name it

Recessions tend to lead to a rise in hate-crime.

opo

MadsL wrote: »

We have a limited pot of money as a country. Any under-class in a society often get blamed for societies ills. Asylum-seeker, Nigerians, Travellers, Roma Gypsies, you name it

Recessions tend to lead to a rise in hate-crime.

Are you saying that Roma, begging, robbing and mugging are also guilty of hate crime? or is that just something we have to label ourselves with before objecting?

opo

MadsL wrote: »

They face a similar problem to Travellers, find me an employer who will hire them faced with these above deep seated prejudicies.

You see, the problem I have with this statement is simple. Roma started coming here first under the asylum provisions. We simply did not have noticeable numbers of Roma here twenty years ago.

Therefore, I am of the opinion they had a unique opportunity to present themselves anew here. Guess what happened? They reverted to form and all those non-existent deep seated prejudicies became, well, deep seated prejudicies if you wish to call them that. In reality, these "prejudices" are a manifestation of fear of what many are capable of, and suspicion of their motives and general behaviour based on direct experience.

So spare us the lecture.

MadsL

Recessions tend to lead to a rise in hate-crime.

Is it that hard to interpret what I said??

In any recession you tend to get an increase in hate-crime, to be honest I'd call the Indo article hate-crime. I'm suprised they published it.

"The Prohibition of Incitement to Hatred Act 1989" makes it an offense to incite hatred against any group of persons on account of their race, color, nationality, religion, sexual orientation, ethnic or national origins, or membership of the Traveller community, an indigenous minority group."

Are you saying that Roma, begging, robbing and mugging are also guilty of hate crime?

Nope, they are guilty of crime. Proposing dealing with those crimes somehow differently is the hate-crime: look at the violent language used "Let's boot out all the muggers" Delaney stops short of saying "Let's boot out all the Roma" but I think it is implied by the article.

opo

MadsL wrote: »

Is it that hard to interpret what I said??

In any recession you tend to get an increase in hate-crime, to be honest I'd call the Indo article hate-crime. I'm suprised they published it.

Nope, they are guilty of crime. Proposing dealing with those crimes somehow differently is the hate-crime: look at the violent language used "Let's boot out all the muggers" Delaney stops short of saying "Let's boot out all the Roma" but I think it is implied by the article.

Yes, but you see, he has seen other European countries do it and quite legally - eliminating a problem that they never wanted in the first place. We don't have the option of booting out our own scum, but if we did, we would no doubt welcome the opportunity.

MadsL

opo wrote: »

You see, the problem I have with this statement is simple. Roma started coming here first under the asylum provisions. We simply did not have noticeable numbers of Roma here twenty years ago.

Therefore, I am of the opinion they had a unique opportunity to present themselves anew here. Guess what happened? They reverted to form and all those non-existent deep seated prejudicies became, well, deep seated prejudicies if you wish to call them that. In reality, these "prejudices" are a manifestation of fear of what many are capable of, and suspicion of their motives and general behaviour based on direct experience.

So spare us the lecture.

Many Roma who first arrived here had positive experiences, and most were illegally trafficked and had no clue where they were going to end up.

As enlargement opened up a lot of Roma came here looking at getting away from what they generally experience in the rest of Europe.

The general first positive experiences didn't last long after enlargement;

Child begging in Dublin decreases: ISPCC -

Roma family 'subjected to racial attacks' - attacked for being homeless.

Gardaí say Roma teenager shot dead

'Romanian gypsies beware beware. Loyalist C18 are coming to beat you like a baiting bear'

Is this acceptable?

MadsL

opo wrote: »

Yes, but you see, he has seen other European countries do it and quite legally - eliminating a problem that they never wanted in the first place. We don't have the option of booting out our own scum, but if we did, we would no doubt welcome the opportunity.

Legal?

http://eulaw.wordpress.com/2010/08/23/expelling-the-roma-is-it-legal/

opo

MadsL wrote: »

Many Roma who first arrived here had positive experiences,

Many still do. Many also see the easy pickings as a very positive experience.

MadsL wrote: »

and most were illegally trafficked and had no clue where they were going to end up.

Spare me. They didn't come by UPS. This line is completely worn out at this stage.

MadsL wrote: »

As enlargement opened up a lot of Roma came here looking at getting away from what they generally experience in the rest of Europe.

That was my point earlier. This was their opportunity to enter green pastures where they could either start afresh or revert to form. Can you not see my point?

MadsL wrote: »

The general first positive experiences didn't last long after enlargement;

Child begging in Dublin decreases: ISPCC -

Roma family 'subjected to racial attacks' - attacked for being homeless.

Gardaí say Roma teenager shot dead

'Romanian gypsies beware beware. Loyalist C18 are coming to beat you like a baiting bear'

This is cherry picking. The wider issues remain impenetrable.

MadsL wrote: »

Is this acceptable?

Is what acceptable? isolated incidents? Is a sociopathological culture acceptable?

opo

MadsL wrote: »

Legal?

http://eulaw.wordpress.com/2010/08/23/expelling-the-roma-is-it-legal/

The comments to the piece are worth a read.

D1stant

Er I know I'm stating the obvious but we have beggars on our streets because people give them money, under the illusion that they are doing a good deed. They are not. They are promoting begging

MadsL

The wider issues remain impenetrable.

They are - it is a long road back to an integration with society, traditional traveller's trade is making, buying and selling. We no longer need clothes pegs, knives sharpened, scrap collected etc. We have lost that relationship with a specific culture, and we have lost any tolerence of what they have replaced that with. Does that mean we can just blame them as a culture - I believe not, we have sufficient resources to punish the crimes of individuals.

Is a sociopathological culture acceptable?

Of course not, but you do know that road is dangerous..we have already seen the consequences of 'solutions'?

MadsL

opo wrote: »

The comments to the piece are worth a read.

Specifically what did you find interesting?

opo

MadsL wrote: »

They are - it is a long road back to an integration with society, traditional traveller's trade is making, buying and selling. We no longer need clothes pegs, knives sharpened, scrap collected etc. We have lost that relationship with a specific culture, and we have lost any tolerence of what they have replaced that with. Does that mean we can just blame them as a culture - I believe not, we have sufficient resources to punish the crimes of individuals.

You are not talking about any historical relationship we have with Roma. We are within our rights to remove individuals indulging in criminality.

MadsL wrote: »

Of course not, but you do know that road is dangerous..we have already seen the consequences of 'solutions'?

We are not obliged to import, sustain or try resolve, insoluble cultures that are criminally inclined. Sending individual criminals home to their crime bosses is not throwing them in gas chambers.

MadsL

We are within our rights to remove these individuals.

It is potentially a breach of Article 3 European Convention on Human Rights to deport someone back to where they face ""inhuman or degrading treatment"
I'd suggest they would win such a case given EU case law.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13956008

We are not obliged to import, sustain or try resolve, insoluble cultures.

Are you proposing deporting Travellers then?

Sending criminals home is not throwing them in gas chambers.

Define "home" for a nomad.

opo

MadsL wrote: »

It is potentially a breach of Article 3 European Convention on Human Rights to deport someone back to where they face ""inhuman or degrading treatment"
I'd suggest they would win such a case given EU case law.

I'd suggest they would move somewhere else and their allegiance to this country would remain virtually non-existent.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13956008

Dude, Somalia is not in the EU.

MadsL wrote: »

Are you proposing deporting Travellers then?

deport them to where? Travellania?

MadsL wrote: »

Define "home" for a nomad.

Tricky question. I don't know. Phibsboro?

The Corinthian

MadsL wrote: »

I'm very familar with Roma, having run a business on Václavské náměstí (Wenceslas Square) in Prague. This was Roma pickpocket central - they even got a silver bracelet off me once! Trust me, the Roma here are nothing compared to those pro pickpocket gangs. Incredible to watch.

Indeed, and the same can be said for those who you will find in Rome; those in Ireland are quite tame by comparison. Going further, I remember telling my schoolmates, as a child, that they had it easy, when they'd complain about travelers.

But unfortunately suggesting that just because we're not being mugged or pick-pocketed by the Rom in Ireland, we somehow should be thankful is not going to help in the long run. Presently the level of criminal activity is limited, but that could well change, especially if begging alone fails to generate enough revenue. My guess is that it's only a matter of time.

In the 19th Century in Holland Richard Liebich's work on Roma introduces the phrase "lives unworthy of life" with specific reference to them, and later used as a racial category against Roma in Nazi Germany. This justification fuels the murder of 500,000 Gypsies by the Nazis. Gypsies refer to this as the "Devouring".

Factually, I need to pull you up on this as it did not sound correct when I read it. According to Wikipedia, the term's origins were with the Nazis and was first used to denote the mentally ill, rather than any ethnic or racial grouping, which came later.

With regards to Richard Liebich's coining of the phrase, there's actually very little mention of him at all on the old Interweb, and from what I can see the only places where this claim of yours is made is on a number of Rom-rights sites.

Incidentially Mr Delaney, I have an different passport than you so I guess you are not calling for people as whole to be safe...

Who cares? I have several different passports, if we want to nitpick.

The issue is not of race or even citizenship, but one of 'culture'. If you're raised in a culture that is consistently antisocial, then you will likely become antisocial and the culture you belong to will be treated with suspicion or even contempt by the rest of society. And you don't need to be a different race for this to happen - most would treat inner city 'skanngers', who have grown up in a similar culture of dependance and crime, in exactly the same way as any gypsy.

Instead we seem to turn the entire thing into a question of race and past history as some form of justification. Even Travelers are desperately seeking political capital in this manner, which is ridiculous because even if they were another race, they're not subject to racism because people generally have to believe you're of another race before they can be racist against you.

Even history is not excuse - if centuries of persecution would justify such an antisocial culture; explain why I don't see Jews begging on street corners?

Ultimately race, history and all the rest of that baloney, is simply politically correct justification that distracts us and solves nothing. The problem is that their culture, not race or nationality, is malignant in civilized society and until that is addressed people's attitudes will rightly remain unchanged.

A Primal Nut

Quote from that article:

The Roma are housed, at our expense

Under what benefit are they being housed at our expense? Removing their access to housing maybe one way of removing them from the country.

Degsy

Anybody familiar with the Roma hovel in gardiner street will probably wonder how the hell they get away with it,the house is being used as a brothel and a counting house for money and stolen property..they go forth like vermin 24 hours a day and nothing is being done about it.

This little bunch were counting money that looked like thousands of euro in the middle of the street.

DublinWriter

The Roma aren't a race, they are a self-populating East-European criminal gang.

I would remind the apologists here of the way woman are treated and used in this gang and of the way babies and small children are used as little more than begging props.

The whole begging operation around Dublin City Centre is arranged with military precision. The women and babies are dropped off and collected in white vans at the start and end of each day.

A Primal Nut

MadsL wrote: »

It is potentially a breach of Article 3 European Convention on Human Rights to deport someone back to where they face ""inhuman or degrading treatment"
I'd suggest they would win such a case given EU case law.

The idea that Roma Gypsies suffer inhuman or degrading treatment in their homelands is mostly incorrect. There is no evidence for this whatsoever. They are poor but so are the white Romanians and Bulgarians, where many earn a monthly salary of 100 euro and if they get 300 euro they are doing well. So its not just the gypsies who are poor; they can't blame poverty for committing so much crime. The fact is that I've been to those countries 5 times in all; some romanian women are scared to walk in certain areas where Roma live at night and nearly all people have been the victim of Roma crimes or intimidation - they all have stories to tell. But of course this discrimination isn't counted when the white person is the victim! The crimes committed by the Roma on the white population are much worse than anything the whites have committed on the Roma in recent years; yet human rights organisations only focus on discrimination against the Roma, simply because they have darker skin.

And like I said poverty is no excuse - the whites in those countries have very little themselves and they don't want whatever little they have to be stolen by people who contribute nothing.

Here's a document outlining some of the things the Romanian government are trying to do to help the Roma with their limited tax revenue:

http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/UNTC/UNPAN016040.pdf

Despite the fact that Romania is a poor country, the Roma and their supporters still complain that they don't get free medical care, social welfare, housing, etc. When they don't get it (because Romania can't afford it) they complain of "inhumane or degrading treatment". The Romanian government and people have done a lot to reconciliate with the Roma - but that has been returned in favor.

listermint

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Tbh I've never heard of a Roma Gypsy mugging anyone, nor have I read any news articles about Gypsys mugging anyone.

mikemac wrote: »

I'd agree I've not heard of reports of assaults and violent muggings from them
But issues like distracting people and getting in your face at an ATM were widely reported

I suppose Ireland is just getting in recent years what Europe already had.
Last time I was in Rome the metro had lots of them begging and I didn't see anyone move them on

Was in the Porter House Central (Temple Bar) last year, having a few drinks with some friends (about 10 of us) We were by the front door. One of the girls felt her bag being moved and turned around to see a Roma Girl exiting the door casually. She checked her bag immediately and her phone was missing. The other girls all checked their bags too and another one was missing her phone.

Straight away we went after her but the doormen had stopped her on exit. Guards were called and she had around 16 or so purses on her persons and numerous mobile phones. She was with a small group of them that had disappeared fairly quick when she was stopped.

So in short yes I have at first hand witnessed roma gypsys mugging people. Anyway when the guards arrived. They actually knew the girl... She was about 18-19 and this was most certainly not her first offence.

cavedave

The other Roma activity which causes alarm is casual prostitution. I thought this was exaggerated until I came across it, in a lane, while walking with my children. Roma girls turning tricks in the lanes around Dalymount. Incidentally, I have myself witnessed all of this behaviour. For this is how brazen it is.

Has anyone else witnessed this? My understanding was that in Roma culture sex with non roma was taboo 'Gypsies believe the lower half of the human body is invisibly polluted, that supernatural defilement is physically contagious, and that non-Gypsies are spiritually toxic', but I do not know much about the gypsy taboos.

PCPhoto

I have said it plenty of times on this and other forums.

We are broke as a nation, people who enter this state should obide by the rules of this state, if they fail to do so they should be punished - if they are an Irish citizen they should be jailed, if they are not an Irish Citizen they should be sent back to the country of origin, I don't care if they are Polish, German or Japanese.

We cannot afford to pander to the needs of an ethnic minority !!
- have a look at the likes of Pamela Isezbekhai, lying and eventually admitting to lying before a court....then taking the matter to European Courts of Law so she could stay here after a legal battle of 5years, other nations see this state as a soft touch and easy place to relocate.

its true that Roma here are involved in criminal activity (not all of them - but I would suggest quite a lot).

The Corinthian

PCPhoto wrote: »

have a look at the likes of Pamela Isezbekhai, lying and eventually admitting to lying before a court....then taking the matter to European Courts of Law so she could stay here after a legal battle of 5years, other nations see this state as a soft touch and easy place to relocate.

As an aside, I see Izevbekhai was finally deported, an odd six years and €1m later. I'm surprised that the matter passed without comment on Boards.

The Corinthian

The Corinthian wrote: »

As an aside, I see Izevbekhai was finally deported, an odd six years and €1m later. I'm surprised that the matter passed without comment on Boards.

Other than the long threads about it
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056332164

The Corinthian

bluewolf wrote: »

Other than the long threads about it
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056332164

Opps... It didn't show up when I did a search.