Are mothers partly responsible for sexism?

dilbert2

It seems that a lot of mothers, particularly in Irish society seem to devote more time, and perhaps praise to their sons – much more so than their daughters. Even as a male, I have never thought this was fair, and have pondered as to whether the different treatment given to sons and daughters by a lot of mothers, is partly responsible for the sexism in our society?

MagicMarker

What are you basing this on exactly? How many mothers do you know who do this?

WesternNight

It would probably be helpful if we had some examples to work from. This is a topic that can be viewed from many different angles.

Are there particular scenarios you're familiar with OP?

Logical Fallacy

dilbert2 wrote: »

It seems that a lot of mothers, particularly in Irish society seem to devote more time, and perhaps praise to their sons – much more so than their daughters. Even as a male, I have never thought this was fair, and have pondered as to whether the different treatment given to sons and daughters by a lot of mothers, is partly responsible for the sexism in our society?

My own personal experience is that this is a pile of balls.

I can't think of a single friend of mine who's parents show more favour to one child over another simply based on sex.

there were numerous examples given in a similar thread in another forum

I don't think it's rubbish but it's getting more unusual as it's outdated I reckon

Morgase

To be fair to be OP, it's something I saw a lot of growing up. Not so much in my immediate family, thank goodness, my parents were fairly "equal opportunities", but it was not uncommon in rural families in 1980's Ireland.

I'd hope it's different now, and as such, perhaps we'll begin see a swing in attitudes due to boys nowadays helping out at home as much as their female siblings.

I know a lot of men my age who aren't much use when it comes to housework and I can't help but think it's got to be something to do with Mammy clearing up after them.

saa

I remember growing up there was a typical country mammy type who had two daughters 11+12 and one son about 9

The son was given a fry each morning and praised for his efforts in GAA
while the daughters were given porridge, which ever daughter was thinner would be treated better. Their achievements were not talked about really only their failings, the son was a little brat but could do no wrong.

More care was given to the son because the expectation was that he would become a bread winner and hopefully if the girls learned how to make themselves presentable enough someone would take them off their hands :-|

The predicted success of a person is not so gender orientated (I'm not talking about pay roll differences), I think it would be a very rare case that anyone would see having a daughter as a burden or in need of less nurturing (although Irish mammys have an awful reputation of molly cuddling their sons nowadays those types of mothers are probably more likely to over molly cuddle all their children equally), which is only applied to those mothers who do molly cuddle I think most don't at least I hope!


Biggest struggle I see in regards to parenting seems to be not being able to say no

Fluorescence

Not so much nowadays. The best I can think of for a modern example is parents letting their young teenage sons out for longer in the evenings than their female siblings at the same age. That's more a safety issue though, I suppose.

It was prevalent in my own mammy's generation though. She's often talked about how the girls in her family had to do all the housework and cooking for the 2 boys. The eldest boy got to go to college and the rest of them were sent out to work after the leaving cert. That's just how it was I suppose when you'd a large family at that time

krudler

probably back in our parents generation, not so much now though.

MichMich

I'm a 22 year old female and I have a 26 year old brother. My mother has always treated us differently. I have a degree and am doing a masters, and am constantly told I am lazy/doing nothing with my life/need to move out etc. My brother dropped out of college and while he now has a relatively good job, the amount of praise and support he recieved and still recieves from my parents completely surpasses what I recieve. He lives at home, pays no rent and has no intention of moving out. If I even leave a cup in the living room, I am accused of exploiting my parents and the house, and the privileged situation I'm in.
I'm a good, hardworking person, I do loads to help out at home, yet nothing I do pleases my mother.
I don't think mothers treating sons and daughters differently is an outdated practice by any means. It might be less common, but it does happen. I remember being at a friend's house a few years ago and being genuinely surprized at how much her brothers helped around the house. In my house, the men are simply not expected to do anything.

sam34

there was and still is sexism in my house.

growing up , us girls were all expected to help with the housework, whereas the boys weren't. they did the more physical things, like drawing in the turf, but so did we. they were never expected to wash dishes , clean up after a meal, do laundry, cook etc.

even now that we are all adults the same thinking applies. daughters and daughters in law do the housework when in my parents home, the sons and sons in law don't.

my parents gave us all good opportunities in terms of education but in the home there was definitely 'womens work'.

Morag

Parents, not just mothers, parents.

Mrs Garth Brooks

My mother is the worst for this. She has been babying her sons all their lives and turns around and has a dig into me and my sister. She has always undermined myself and my sister, we were always good for nothing and useless.

She's been like this for as long as i can remember even as kids. I have two older brothers, then there was myself and my sister and then a younger brother that came along 8 years later. We (myself and sister) were definately treated differently all our lives.

While going to school, there was swimming lessons offered. The two older brothers were allowed to go swimming. When it came to myself and my sister, we weren't allowed by my mother. I remember my dad was going to pay but my mother said no, all 6 years there was swimming offered. Along came my younger brother and he was allowed swimming lessons. I always thought this was very unfair and my mother has always said everyone should know how to swim and we were given the opportunity to learn and she never let us. I dont understand her thinking.

When it came to exams, the two older brothers were allowed to study, and we were told to keep the house quite. If my mother ever saw myself or my sister doing any kind of school work, never mind studying for exams, she would have a fit. It would normally start off like her telling us to sweep the floor or something like that. If it wasn't done on the spot, and we say in a minute or after finishing what we were doing, she would fly into a fit of rage and throw our books all over the place. She really made the atmosphere very unbearable. This was every single time we sat down to do anything. Along came my brother, and my mother would make myself or the sister to do his homework in primary school. Often putting a guilt trip on us if we ever said, it isn't helping him. When it came to his exams, he was allowed to study.

Myself and my brother went to college, and it was the same thing. After his leaving cert, he was allowed a break as he was going straight into college. After my leaving cert, she put so much pressure on me to find work. She never once had faith in me. We both received the grant. But it was spent differently. As soon as he got the grant, it was spent on booze and new mobile phones, while my mother gave him handouts every monday morning for the weekly bus fares. If i didnt make my grant money stretch for 4 weeks of bus fares, it was my fault i couldn't go into college.

All three brothers were allowed out with their friends at 14/15 years old. Going to discos and staying out all night. Because its what boys do. She never allowed the girls. The problem here, we never lied enough.

Thats just growing up. Now its the same thing, nothing has changed except its more to do with money now. She has three grown men at home and they dont pay their way. Two of them has work and earning great money to be going off on holidays. Twice last year. Again this year. And because they are saving, they dont have to pay housekeeping. Its just my mother making excuses for them. While she does everything for them. Buys their food, cooks, cleans up after them, washes their clothes. Pays their dentist and doctors fees and medicines.

Even the younger brother had work last year, he saw the two older brothers getting away with this and he realised he didn't have to work. He's now on a 100 dole a week and my mothers excuse for him, it isn't alot of money. While he can afford a car, insurance and going out drinking.

While my mother has always expected myself and my sister to pay housekeeping, buy our own food, pay pills. It didn't matter what our circumstances were, she never gave us a break. If we asked, we were told to get a flat. Its funny how 3 grown parasites were never told to get a flat.

KnocKnocKnock

I haven't seen very much of this thank god, but I can think of one family in which I've seen it. Whenever our family were in the house, the mother of this other family would ask "if the girls would like to help". This was a cue for all the females to come in and help with the cooking while the men stayed and watched tv.

I found one incident shocking though. The eldest boy was sent to a 5 grand a year private school. For her leaving cert year, his sister told her parents she wanted to go to the grinds school and had saved half the fees, could they give her the other half. The parents said no, they couldn't afford it. The mother told ours that they had to pay for the son to go to college and couldn't afford to send the other kids to fee paying schools/uni. My mam answered that they shouldn't offer one child something they can't give to all of them and she answered "ah but he's a boy!"

nicowa

HardLuckWoman wrote: »

My mother is the worst for this....

Sorry, too long to quote fully.

Sounds like your mother has a serious problem. Not only did she stop he from doing things to advance - swimming lessons, and probably more that you haven't mentioned - but she actively went against ye - interrupting your study and not helping even a little with college bus fares. I would assume that she got about the same level of help from her mother and it screwed with her, or that she has serious issues with the advancement of women beyond what was allowed to her.

Sorry if I'm making judegements where I shouldn't.

This all made me wonder about my mothers family. The oldest girl was sent to college to become a teacher (they couldn't afford more) over at least 1 older brother - he went to england at 15. And my mother was an unmarried mother and there would never have been a suggestion that she had to get married - and my grandmother forced (pretty much) the priest to conduct a full christening.

And at the same time, my grandmother feeds and homes her three oldest sons and I wouldn't be sure of what they give her.

ToniTuddle

Tried to post this and laptop went bit crazy!So hopefully it works this time.

Know of two lads in their early 30s who are an absolute disgrace all because Mammy can't say no and has this idea of the woman has to do everything for the man to keep the man.

These two men are from different towns and are not related but it's soo funny and sad how similar their stories are. Still live at home nothing to do with recession they simply had no intention of ever leaving and why would they when Mammy does every single little thing.

They text their Mothers and order them to make a sandwich or a fry at all hours of the day and night(esp after coming in from a feed of drink at 3am on a Saturday they would wake their mothers up!!) and the mothers will do it! Soo spoilt it's unreal. The way they treat their parents is shocking and the hateful things they say to them, ya wouldn't believe it :eek: But the parents do nothing about it as they are the golden boys who will take over the farms when they are dead. >.<

The way they view women has been affected. They completely disrespect women and want to basically find a replacement Mammy who will fcuk them as well :rolleyes: The dirty chat out of them is pathetic and disgusting. The sight of either man makes my blood boil :mad:


Ones my own age (25) not too sure of many ones but I'd say there is.
One friends mother has two boys and then two girls. The girls are encouraged big time to get a man. Seen her first hand getting onto my friend so on badness I suggested to her about how the sons will be needing to bring home a girlfriend (they are 21 and 24), she nearly had a fit! Said there was time enough and her boys were too young for that carry on and no need for it. But she doesn't mind them messing about with girls but doesn't want them settled into relationships She actually said that in so many words.

Least these two lads are very decent and sound(compared to those other wagons I mentioned!) but veerrrrrryy secretive lads esp about their private life :pac: Mammy gets told nothing anymore . But they haven't a clue how to clean or cook the mother won't show them or let them!

Malari

I've never really seen this and am actually quite shocked that it seems this common! We were always treated the same by our parents, and my friends all were too. I do remember my brother being a bit of a lazy sod, but then he was just nagged more to do his chores. And maybe in my boyfriend's family he was...less than encouraged to help out in the food prep! But if he didn't get himself in to the kitchen to wash up after there'd be hell to pay. :pac: All the people I know would have been given the same educational opportunities (within the same family) regardless of whether they were male or female.

Sharrow wrote: »

Parents, not just mother's parents.

I'm a little confused by the post. Are you saying maternal grandparents are somehow to blame?? I'm clearly missing something because the post has been thanked a couple of times.

LegacyUser

Yes.

It's not every family, but there's definitely an epidemic of Irish mammies - oh my wonderful son.

My best friend throughout school was from a family of 3 - 2 girls and a boy. I remember being in secondary school, he used to go into his parent's bed to watch TV in the mornings before school, and the 2 sisters would bring him his breakfast in bed every morning. If they didn't, their mother did (she was often gone for work). He was totally and unbelievably spoiled and indulged. Now the girls were loved just as much, but the boy was completely spoiled. The number of times I heard "my only son"...from that woman's mouth.....

I'm 28, so that's not that long ago! And she was a woman with endless sense, except in this realm.

I did a heavily male based college course, and some lads were absolutely cosetted by their mothers. Still are! It's an unbelievable phenomenon, and while I think it's dying out, it makes me so mad. I'm from a family of sisters and I firmly believe there is no differnece (except the obvious ones!) between the sexes. My future children will all be treated equally, I expect the same from the boys as the girls. Anything else is just rubbish!!

nicowa

Malari wrote: »

I'm a little confused by the post. Are you saying maternal grandparents are somehow to blame?? I'm clearly missing something because the post has been thanked a couple of times.

Parents, not just mother's, parents.

That better?

Malari

nicowa wrote: »

That better?

Oh, ok. I should have said it out loud. In my defence there was no comma but an extra apostrophe I think I've just found a new "eats, shoots and leaves".

Anyway, I agree. Both mother and father should probably be responsible, but I know several families where the mother is the matriarch and dad seems to have little or no input into household matters. Or just agrees with mom ALL the time. Strange.

LittleMissBox

i don't think that it has become outdated, more that it is changing with the times. I don't believe it happens as much as it did in my parents times. I was very lucky with my family in that if one child got something, the other two would get the same thing if not something of the same value and even though we are all in our twenties now my mother still insists on no distinctions.

However, i don't think that back in the day when it was more prominent that it was blatant sexism in that people looked at girls and looked down on them for their gender but boys were of more use for the family. Obviously i didn't live through these times but that is how i would see it and i would consider myself a feminist.

Kanoe

2 brother and four sisters, men were glorified and could do no wrong. Girls were wicked and evil and regrettable, according to my mother. I grew up wanting to be a boy.

[edit:as it happens I don't hold women in high regard much either]

Kanoe

Kanoe wrote: »

Girls were wicked and evil and regrettable, according to my mother.
...
as it happens I don't hold women in high regard much either

Why would you...

Dudess

Kanoe wrote: »

2 brother and four sisters, men were glorified and could do no wrong. Girls were wicked and evil and regrettable, according to my mother.

Wow... messed up.

[edit:as it happens I don't hold women in high regard much either]

Even though you are one. Ok.

Morag

bluewolf wrote: »

Why would you...

Eve and original sin, temptresses and 'the curse'.

we'llallhavetea_old

i witness this bullsh!t all the time unfortunately. local kids, siblings, brother and sister, the girl gets dragged in and walloped for doing the smallest thing yet the son has to half murder another child before he gets told off. the son also gets to stay up late while the daughter is sent to bed wailing
another thing i have seen is that if a girl says a swear word all hell will break loose, the boy does it, its fcuking hilarious. makes me sick.

WindSock

Do you think it is something that will pass on to the current generation of kids much, or is it outdated?

LandL84

Interesting topic. Well in my family I always felt that my brother was a number one, he was younger and there was only two of us. I never knew why.. Was it because he was a boy and I was a girl or just other reasons for favouritism? Anyway, in the last year my mum confessed that she always loved my brother more, he was her favourite etc. I didn't feel hurt because I already knew it. I always knew that my father loved my brother more as well. My parents were divorced since I was 6 and as I was growing up I had less and less in common with my father, he became very distant almost like a stranger, but he had a good relationship with my brother, and hell yes I knew the reason here - because he was a boy. It's just a little bit sad that sometimes parents don't love their kids equally, that every so often one child is better than another. I don't think it's right..

Wibbs

WindSock wrote: »

Do you think it is something that will pass on to the current generation of kids much, or is it outdated?

It would be my personal and likely odd take that on top of women not being as valued this "Irish Mammy" behaviour was as much a way for women to have or retain control in societies where gender roles were more clearcut, traditional and paternalistic. Not just Irish mammies either. Italian, Spanish, Greek, Jewish etc.

The mammy controls the home, does everything for the men so without her they're helpless inside the home. I've rarely met an obvious Irish mammy where the Irish daddy wasn't tightly controlled or even under the thumb under the family roof. The fathers were subtly almost peripheral to proceedings, like men at weddings. The sons were cosseted, but if you think about it treated like children. Phrases like "ah sure men are like little boys they never grow up" are common ones from that mindset. The daughters? In one way you could argue the Irish mammy actually respected them more(even if affection was lesser) as they were assumed to be more grown up from an early age. She expects the daughters to do the same as her down the line with their own men so it's more on the job training. "Act like this, control men, the home and family" kinda thing.

The more society and gender roles become fluid the less this will happen. In Ireland we're more in the transition phase as those stricter roles are more recent. You tend to find more "Irish/Italian/Jewish Mammies" among rural communities and working class communities because the traditional roles are more, or have been more defined even within the last few generations.

Ickle Magoo

Wibbs wrote: »

The mammy controls the home, does everything for the men so without her they're helpless inside the home. I've rarely met an obvious Irish mammy where the Irish daddy wasn't tightly controlled or even under the thumb under the family roof.

It's funny you should say that - I spent the first few years of our relationship point black refusing to make decisions on everything. Consultation leading to joint decision, fine - but it was almost as if it was expected that I had the casting vote or should just dictate how things would go. It took years to de-programme that and it's still his default - drives me crackers. I want a partner, one who isn't afraid to tell me what they want and don't want; not a cow-towing servant to do my bidding. Do these mothers know what a disservice they do to their sons? :mad:

Maple

There were more daughters than sons in our house so we rebelled when my mother tried to make the girls do housework while the boys sat on their arse. Thankfully she listened to us.

I have come up against the Mammy's word is Law type of thinking before, drives me bananas.

Ickle Magoo

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Do these mothers know what a disservice they do to their sons? :mad:

I meant to add to that - or fathers, for failing to show their son's what demanding an even share of decisions and respect for opinion in a balanced relationship is...tbh I don't know what's worse - the domineering over-bearing mother or the pathetically unassertive and weak-willed father. :rolleyes:

LegacyUser

From my own experience, my mother definitely treated myself and my brother differently. My brother is 4 years younger than me and its only the 2 of us, but there has always been differences in the ways we've been treated. From when we were younger and my brother would be allowed to stay out as late (or later) than me even though I was 4 years older, to being given preferential treatment in terms of being asked what he would like for dinner, what he wanted to watch on tv, where he wanted to go, and if I asked for something I was told tough luck, take what you get or take nothing. Even in school his efforts were always praised more than mine, and when it came to time for college, I was expected to get a part time job to pay my way. He did 4 years of a degree and had every penny handed to him. Even now that uni is over for both of us, he just lays about at home having everything handed to him. My mother cooks every meal he eats, puts it in front of him, and cleans up after him afterwards. She still does his washing, ironing, cleans his bedroom, makes his bed, and asks him can she get him anything. I'm surprised he knows how to brush is own teeth. I was living out in an apartment and lost my job due to the recession and had to move back home and (not that I would even dream of having it any other way) I cook my own meals, clean up after myself, do my own washing etc. But not only that I am expected to clean up after my brother too. And if I say no way let him do it himself, I just get ridiculous reasons like ah sure he wouldn't know anything about doing that. Yes because he was treated like a spoiled little brat.
I can't understand why some mothers and fathers have this way of treating their sons and daughters so differently. My mother came from a pretty large family but all her brothers are perfectly self sufficient and capable of taking care of themselves. But yet this is how she raised her son. Although my father had only sisters and from what I can tell he was Mammy-d by not just his mother, but his sisters as well and I think when he married my mother she just took over from where his mother left off. Even though at least he is capable of making his own breakfast (although I'd say if you asked him to turn on the washing machine he would just stare at you blankly).
Sadly I think this is more common than people think

Wibbs

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I meant to add to that - or fathers, for failing to show their son's what demanding an even share of decisions and respect for opinion in a balanced relationship is...tbh I don't know what's worse - the domineering over-bearing mother or the pathetically unassertive and weak-willed father. :rolleyes:

Oh yea the Irish daddy also has a lot to answer for. In their case I think that may get worse not better. I dunno why but I've certainly noted a lot more weak willed men in the face of women in the last ten years than in the previous 20. More men seem to view women as a different species and put them on unnatural pedestals than I noted in my youth. Or go the other retarded way and look down on them. BS around the "gender war"? Me being unsure of their role?* You'd think with more men and women educated and working together this would be lesser? God knows, but I have noticed it. personally speaking anyway.

But yea the put upon Irish daddy/man. No doubt an unpopular opinion but my reaction is to immediately see them as weak, spineless types. I usually feel more for the woman in the relationship TBH. Even if she's a harridan too often she's found she's had to act like one to get anything done. I've know women who were anything but wagons slowly become that in relationships with these kind of men. Like I say it gets some sort of result. If you're faced with a "ah sure whatever you want dear/can't make a decision to save my life" type I'd act the same in their shoes I reckon. Now it can be the guy is just looking for The Quiet Life and is afraid if he does make a decision he'll be then blamed for it. That crap coming from the ladies can happen too. Even so I'm still thinking man = weak. Take a decision, take the responsibility for that decision. Do this early on when it comes up so she can at least rely on you and if she is one of those eejits that blames you and avoids responsibility, scrape her off and find a woman who won't and there's shed loads of them out there. If you don't do this and end up being a put down brow beaten man you've only yourself to blame. /rant.




*your "role" is to be an emotionally mature human being that takes responsibility and deals with that. Not exactly rocket science.

Logical Fallacy

The kids in my family were all treated the same growing up there was far too much work to be done to be dicking around and treating the boys differently to the girls.

We actually used to try and end up doing the household work because if you weren't doing something inside you were outside and when you come from a farming community there is always something that needs doing for someone.

The best thing about my childhood is i could help a cow birth a calf, raise it, slaughter it, butcher it and cook the damn thing in a variety of ways....and wash the damn dishes after myself.:D

I don't suggest the above as a primary way of living through, you get pretty hungry waiting on the damn calf to grow.

ilovesleep

I'm the daughter of one of these mothers where the treatment between the sexes was/is pretty severe and I can identify with a lot of whats written here.

I haven't been living at home now for some time and moving out was the best thing I did. My mother contacts me regularly though for 'loans' due to being short but will never ever ever ask for housekeeping from her adult baby boys and refuses to see that this is where a problem lies. She's happy to support the adult baby boys financially and won't take rent of them. Yet when I was living at home if I was 5 minutes late with rentshe had my stuff packed into black sacks.

My sister had to move back home a couple of months back and the ****e that came from my mothers mouth sickened me: 'moving back home at her age, she should have been gone at 18 and never return. My jaw dropped because she has three adult sons living at home in which she absolutely loves supporting them physically in the form of chores and financially even though she is broke and they have money to spend on booze. Its a situation she has created and although she's not happy with their carry on and behaviour its something she actively encourages all the same by not giving any responsibilties to these men.

Anyways I may need to move back home in which I am dreading due to the sexist attitude anx double standards.

I wonder would contacting a paper and asking them to do a piece on irish mammy snydrome help expose such an absolutely disguisting old out dated attitude which is still alive in ireland 2011 and one that causes distress for many women like myself all because we dont have a penis hanging in our knickers.

irishh_bob

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh yea the Irish daddy also has a lot to answer for. In their case I think that may get worse not better. I dunno why but I've certainly noted a lot more weak willed men in the face of women in the last ten years than in the previous 20. More men seem to view women as a different species and put them on unnatural pedestals than I noted in my youth. Or go the other retarded way and look down on them. BS around the "gender war"? Me being unsure of their role?* You'd think with more men and women educated and working together this would be lesser? God knows, but I have noticed it. personally speaking anyway.

But yea the put upon Irish daddy/man. No doubt an unpopular opinion but my reaction is to immediately see them as weak, spineless types. I usually feel more for the woman in the relationship TBH. Even if she's a harridan too often she's found she's had to act like one to get anything done. I've know women who were anything but wagons slowly become that in relationships with these kind of men. Like I say it gets some sort of result. If you're faced with a "ah sure whatever you want dear/can't make a decision to save my life" type I'd act the same in their shoes I reckon. Now it can be the guy is just looking for The Quiet Life and is afraid if he does make a decision he'll be then blamed for it. That crap coming from the ladies can happen too. Even so I'm still thinking man = weak. Take a decision, take the responsibility for that decision. Do this early on when it comes up so she can at least rely on you and if she is one of those eejits that blames you and avoids responsibility, scrape her off and find a woman who won't and there's shed loads of them out there. If you don't do this and end up being a put down brow beaten man you've only yourself to blame. /rant.




*your "role" is to be an emotionally mature human being that takes responsibility and deals with that. Not exactly rocket science.

men are caught between a rock and a hard place nowadays , the feminist movement has told women that they need to be just as tough as men , on the other hand , men have been told that traditional masculinity is pure evil and that thier is nothing more offensive in this world than a chauvanistic macho man who isnt in touch with his feelings 24 - 7 , men think that in order to please women ( or appease them ) , they must be meek , compliant and excessivley benign in order to meet modern ( feminist sanctioned ) social standards , after having done this , women turn round and whinge about how thier are no real men left anymore , we cant win

Ickle Magoo

irish_bob, if you want have a bitch about women or feminists, then this isn't the forum to do it on.

Please read the forum charter before posting again - especially the bit about lazy generalizations.

seenitall

irishh_bob wrote: »

men are caught between a rock and a hard place nowadays , the feminist movement has told women that they need to be just as tough as men , on the other hand , men have been told that traditional masculinity is pure evil and that thier is nothing more offensive in this world than a chauvanistic macho man who isnt in touch with his feelings 24 - 7 , men think that in order to please women ( or appease them ) , they must be meek , compliant and excessivley benign in order to meet modern ( feminist sanctioned ) social standards , after having done this , women turn round and whinge about how thier are no real men left anymore , we cant win

Wrong thread indeed. This kind of sexist double standard, and the accompanying attitudes of both mothers and fathers toward their offspring as well as each other, well predate feminism.

EDIT: Had a taste of it myself growing up, but then my mother was a non-Irish psycho, so irrelevant for this thread, too.

pickarooney

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I want a partner, one who isn't afraid to tell me what they want and don't want; not a cow-towing servant to do my bidding. Do these mothers know what a disservice they do to their sons? :mad:

I have an image of a serf tugging a heifer about for you

I can't speak for your husband but IME a lot of the time that's not so much down to doing your bidding but not really caring either way and not wanting the hassle of a discussion.

Monty Burnz

Sharrow wrote: »

Parents, not just mothers, parents.

I'd say that daughters probably get preferential treatment from fathers, and sons get preferential treatment from mothers.

Back in the day, mothers did most of the child-rearing, so boys were probably exposed to more favouritism. Now that both parents are involved with parenting (usually) that should become a thing of the past.

Monty Burnz

By the way, I think this is connected to a point I made a while back on this
board about women's role in perpetuating patriarchal societies. The point wasn't too well received though.

Ickle Magoo

pickarooney wrote: »

I have an image of a serf tugging a heifer about for you

:pac: Sorry, kowtowing...

pickarooney wrote: »

I can't speak for your husband but IME a lot of the time that's not so much down to doing your bidding but not really caring either way and not wanting the hassle of a discussion.

We both feel that way about the non-important stuff, I'm taking more about decision making which can have serious consequences...

optogirl

irishh_bob wrote: »

men have been told that traditional masculinity is pure evil and that thier is nothing more offensive in this world than a chauvanistic macho man who isnt in touch with his feelings 24 - 7 , men think that in order to please women ( or appease them ) , they must be meek , compliant and excessivley benign in order to meet modern ( feminist sanctioned ) social standards , after having done this , women turn round and whinge about how thier are no real men left anymore , we cant win

what are you on about? Where are you getting this sh*te from?

charlemont

HardLuckWoman wrote: »

My mother is the worst for this. She has been babying her sons all their lives and turns around and has a dig into me and my sister. She has always undermined myself and my sister, we were always good for nothing and useless.

She's been like this for as long as i can remember even as kids. I have two older brothers, then there was myself and my sister and then a younger brother that came along 8 years later. We (myself and sister) were definately treated differently all our lives.

While going to school, there was swimming lessons offered. The two older brothers were allowed to go swimming. When it came to myself and my sister, we weren't allowed by my mother. I remember my dad was going to pay but my mother said no, all 6 years there was swimming offered. Along came my younger brother and he was allowed swimming lessons. I always thought this was very unfair and my mother has always said everyone should know how to swim and we were given the opportunity to learn and she never let us. I dont understand her thinking.

When it came to exams, the two older brothers were allowed to study, and we were told to keep the house quite. If my mother ever saw myself or my sister doing any kind of school work, never mind studying for exams, she would have a fit. It would normally start off like her telling us to sweep the floor or something like that. If it wasn't done on the spot, and we say in a minute or after finishing what we were doing, she would fly into a fit of rage and throw our books all over the place. She really made the atmosphere very unbearable. This was every single time we sat down to do anything. Along came my brother, and my mother would make myself or the sister to do his homework in primary school. Often putting a guilt trip on us if we ever said, it isn't helping him. When it came to his exams, he was allowed to study.

Myself and my brother went to college, and it was the same thing. After his leaving cert, he was allowed a break as he was going straight into college. After my leaving cert, she put so much pressure on me to find work. She never once had faith in me. We both received the grant. But it was spent differently. As soon as he got the grant, it was spent on booze and new mobile phones, while my mother gave him handouts every monday morning for the weekly bus fares. If i didnt make my grant money stretch for 4 weeks of bus fares, it was my fault i couldn't go into college.

All three brothers were allowed out with their friends at 14/15 years old. Going to discos and staying out all night. Because its what boys do. She never allowed the girls. The problem here, we never lied enough.

Thats just growing up. Now its the same thing, nothing has changed except its more to do with money now. She has three grown men at home and they dont pay their way. Two of them has work and earning great money to be going off on holidays. Twice last year. Again this year. And because they are saving, they dont have to pay housekeeping. Its just my mother making excuses for them. While she does everything for them. Buys their food, cooks, cleans up after them, washes their clothes. Pays their dentist and doctors fees and medicines.

Even the younger brother had work last year, he saw the two older brothers getting away with this and he realised he didn't have to work. He's now on a 100 dole a week and my mothers excuse for him, it isn't alot of money. While he can afford a car, insurance and going out drinking.

While my mother has always expected myself and my sister to pay housekeeping, buy our own food, pay pills. It didn't matter what our circumstances were, she never gave us a break. If we asked, we were told to get a flat. Its funny how 3 grown parasites were never told to get a flat.

Your mum sounds like a spiteful cow, Thats a lousy way to treat ye, She probably is very bitter about how she was brought up and just wants ye to have the same, Burn the bridges I say.

Logical Fallacy

optogirl wrote: »

what are you on about? Where are you getting this sh*te from?

From the school of people who care too much about what they assume other people may be thinking.

gbee

MagicMarker wrote: »

What are you basing this on exactly? How many mothers do you know who do this?

I've been around since 1954, I'm a social photographer and attend many family ceremonies.

I know how many sons' pictures I sell.

It could also be embarrassing how few families have pictures of their daughters.

I'd have no idea how this fits nationally.

ilovesleep

gbee wrote: »

I've been around since 1954, I'm a social photographer and attend many family ceremonies.

I know how many sons' pictures I sell.

It could also be embarrassing how few families have pictures of their daughters.

I'd have no idea how this fits nationally.

That's unreal. This irish mammy behaviour, something which should be old and outdated is very much alive and well.

I see my brothers at home, they are good people, they have travelled and lived away from home at times but circumstances always brought them back. They are very independant people but my mother has handicaped them in that they are simply not allowed to do things except for diy job. An example would be the washing machine. They are simply not allowed to use it because apparently they don't know how to use it (according to my mother). I've seen my brothers many hand up money towards their keep but she won't take it off them. Different story then for the females. They must pay the rent on time every week but at the expense of losing independence. No doubt about it, there would be some men that would take advantage of such a situation but my brothers hate all the fussing but for an easy life they leave things be. So what I'm saying is that this is an attitude that is ingrained in some mothers.


Don't you hate it, not only are daughters considered evil and not proper but any women close to these men are not only the same - evil and not proper - but whores and sluts?Not that my brothers take back women but I remember being at a local function a few years back and one of my brothers got it off with a local girl and she was considered a slapper by my mother.

CDfm

I have been told by my OH that I have a different relationship with my daughter to my son. Maybe I tend to over compensate but also a guy cant hang out with his son and be one of the lads. Doing stuff with my daughter mellows me a bit and gets me away from real life. A bit like a "soap opera" really.

So maybe this thread should be discussing Daddies and their daughters and Mammies and their sons. It could be a natural thing for us to impress the other gender and expect our same gender children to be competant at things at the same age we were. Like, when I was your age I could open sauce bottles, so, you teach your kids skills. Men pick up all about peeing standing up and farts being funny from their Dad's.

I don't read tll much, but, there is a thread on porn. Ask a guy and they will probably say ya I'd watch it cause I like girls or it makes me horny but does not analyse it. As it happens I am not into porn but appreciate women aesthetically *waits for backlash*

I used to pick up clothes for my now adult kids, my son I could get it wrong with, even size etc of jeans, whereas with my daughter on tops etc I had a better eye. A girl can never have too many string tops. I probably picked up that skill traipsing after my mother in the City as she shopped for herself and my sister. I totally get the shopping thing.

I often think I try to be a bit better than my parents. My Dad was awful with my sisters boyfriends etc and my mother had her own ways especially with education that have been visited on my niece. So in a weird way, I suppose I try to balance out stuff my parents did badly and in situations where they may have been overly harsh I would be kind.

My mother comes from a long line of female teachers and it looks like we have broken the cycle. . And I still don't know kitchen ettiquette but my OH does all the cooking. I suspect part of it is I don't have to worry about fitting into skinny jeans. Vive le difference , in my adult life I havent been healthier or as well looked after.

My mother is a lovely woman but now in her 80's she is still very insensitive and can do put downs for Ireland. Lots of guys I know say the same , that no-one can put them down like their mothers.

Complex socialisation ****.

So thats my micro life .

On a macro level, I see this

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/aug/25/girls-gcse-gender-gap-16

My daughter needed more school support than my son at secondary and wow did I felt excluded from the system as a Dad.I did my best but hey it was a struggle.

And, I am going, how will my kids do at this. What skills have they picked up.from me and what faults.