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USA has credit rating cut by Standard & Poors

  • 06-08-2011 2:36am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭aligator_am


    Wonder if this will have a knock on effect in Europe?

    It's a biblical read, but included it for those interested and on mobiles.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-06/u-s-credit-rating-cut-by-s-p-for-first-time-on-deficit-reduction-accord.html
    The U.S. had its AAA credit rating downgraded for the first time by Standard & Poor’s, which slammed the nation’s political process and said lawmakers failed to cut spending enough to reduce record deficits.

    S&P dropped the ranking one level to AA+, after warning on July 14 that it would reduce the rating in the absence of a “credible” plan to lower deficits even if the nation’s $14.3 trillion debt limit was lifted. The U.S. was awarded the top credit ranking by New York-based S&P in 1941. It kept the outlook at “negative” amid the failure to end Bush-era tax cuts.

    “The downgrade reflects our opinion that the fiscal consolidation plan that Congress and the Administration recently agreed to falls short of what, in our view, would be necessary to stabilize the government’s medium-term debt dynamics,” S&P said in a statement today.

    Demand for Treasuries has surged even with the specter of a downgrade as investors saw few alternatives to the traditional refuge during times of risk as concern increased global growth is slowing and Europe’s sovereign debt crisis is spreading.
    Downgrade Fallout

    The action may still hurt the U.S. economy over time by increasing the cost of mortgages, auto loans and other types of lending tied to the interest rates paid on Treasuries. JPMorgan Chase & Co. estimated that a downgrade would raise the nation’s borrowing costs by $100 billion a year.

    S&P said it may lower the long-term rating to AA within the next two years if spending reductions are lower than agreed to, interest rates rise or “new fiscal pressures” during the period result in higher general government debt.

    “It’s a reflection of the fact that we haven’t done enough to get our fiscal house in the order,” Anthony Valeri, market strategist in San Diego at LPL Financial, which oversees $340 billion, said in an interview before the downgrade. “Sovereign credit quality is going to remain under pressure for years to come.”

    Moody’s Investors Service and Fitch Ratings affirmed their AAA credit ratings on Aug. 2, the day President Barack Obama signed a bill that ended the debt-ceiling impasse that pushed the Treasury to the edge of default. Moody’s and Fitch also said that downgrades were possible if lawmakers fail to enact debt reduction measures and the economy weakens.
    S&P’s Assumptions

    The measure raised the nation’s debt ceiling until 2013 and threatens automatic spending cuts to enforce $2.4 trillion in spending reductions over the next 10 years.

    Even with the agreement, S&P said the nation’s debt may rise to 74 percent of gross domestic product by the end of this year, to 79 percent in 2015 and 85 percent by 2021.

    The rating may be lowered further if spending reductions are lower than agreed to, interest rates rise or “new fiscal pressures” result in higher general government debt.

    S&P also changed its assumption that the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts would expire by the end of 2012 “because the majority of Republicans in Congress continue to resist any measure that would raise revenues.”

    “More broadly, the downgrade reflects our view that the effectiveness, stability, and predictability of American policymaking and political institutions have weakened at a time of ongoing fiscal and economic challenges to a degree more than we envisioned when we assigned a negative outlook to the rating,” S&P said.
    ‘Grand Bargain’

    S&P put the U.S. government on notice on April 18 that it risks losing its AAA rating unless lawmakers agree on a plan by 2013 to reduce budget deficits and the national debt. S&P indicated last month that anything less than $4 trillion in cuts would jeopardize the rating.

    “A grand bargain of that nature would signal the seriousness of policy makers to address the fiscal situation in the U.S.,” John Chambers, chairman of S&P’s sovereign rating committee, said in a video interview distributed by the ratings firm on July 28.

    Earlier today the Treasury Department found fundamental flaws in S&P’s analysis, according to a person familiar with the situation who declined to be identified because the talks were private. S&P miscalculated future deficit projections by $2 trillion, said a Treasury spokesman who commented on condition of anonymity.
    Consumer Costs

    Obama has said a rating cut may hurt the broader economy by increasing consumer borrowing costs tied to Treasury rates. An increase in Treasury yields of 50 basis points would reduce U.S. economic growth by about 0.4 percentage points, JPMorgan said in a report, citing Federal Reserve research and data.

    “The hope is that we could keep Treasuries pure, limited to interest rate risk,” Mohamed El-Erian, chief executive and co-chief investment officer at Pacific Investment Management Co., said in a Bloomberg Television interview before the announcement. “The minute you start downgrading away from AAA, you take small steps toward credit risk and that is something any country would like to avoid.”

    Treasury yields average about 0.70 percentage point less than the rest of the world’s sovereign debt markets, Bank of America Merrill Lynch indexes show. The difference has expanded from 0.15 percentage point in January.
    Foreign Investors

    Investors from China to the U.K. are lending money to the U.S. government for a decade at the lowest rates of the year. For many of them, there are few alternatives outside the U.S., no matter what its credit rating.

    “Yields are low in the face of a downgrade because there is nowhere else for people to go if they don’t buy Treasuries because they want to be in safe dollar assets,” Carl Lantz, head of interest-rate strategy at Credit Suisse Group AG, one of 20 primary dealers that trade directly with the Federal Reserve, said before the announcement.

    Ten-year Treasury yields fell to as low as 2.33 percent in New York today, the least since October. Yields for the nine sovereign borrowers that have lost their AAA ratings since 1998 rose an average of two basis points in the following week, according to JPMorgan.

    The committee of bond dealers and investors that advises the U.S. Treasury said the dollar’s status as the world’s reserve currency “appears to be slipping” in quarterly feedback presented to the government on Aug. 3. The U.S. currency’s portion of global currency reserves dropped to 60.7 percent in the period ended March 31, from a peak of 72.7 percent in 2001, International Monetary Fund data show.
    Borrowing Committee

    “The idea of a reserve currency is that it is built on strength, not typically that it is ‘best among poor choices’,” page 35 of the presentation made by one member of the Treasury Borrowing Advisory Committee, which includes representatives from firms ranging from Goldman Sachs Group Inc. to Pimco. “The fact that there are not currently viable alternatives to the U.S. dollar is a hollow victory and perhaps portends a deteriorating fate.”

    Members of the TBAC, as the committee is known, which met Aug. 2 in Washington, also discussed the implications of a downgrade of the U.S. sovereign credit rating. “None of the members thought that a downgrade was imminent,” according to minutes of the meeting released by the Treasury.

    A U.S. credit-rating cut would likely raise the nation’s borrowing costs by increasing Treasury yields by 60 basis points to 70 basis points over the “medium term,” JPMorgan’s Terry Belton said on a July 26 conference call hosted by the Securities Industry and Financial Markets Association. The U.S. spent $414 billion on interest expense in fiscal 2010, or 2.7 percent of gross domestic product, according to Treasury Department data.

    “That impact on Treasury rates is significant,” Belton, global head of fixed-income strategy at JPMorgan, said during the call. “That $100 billion a year is money being used for higher interest rates and that’s money being taken away from other goods and services.”


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    It should have a knock on rating in Europe, and strangely enough, one entity that stands to benefit most from this on Monday morning is the US Treasury. Strange world, eh? Investors will most likely flee from stocks and into the hands of the US Government, as they have been doing all week.

    It is also important to remember that the US is a split-rated AAA country, since it still retains an AAA rating by two out of three SEC Credit ratings agencies, and only S&P have downgraded it.

    Therefore, there is no legal need for a massive US sell-off, as there could be if other credit ratings agencies followed suit.

    Either way, it's a monumental moment in US economic, and perhaps political, history.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭aligator_am


    later10 wrote: »
    It should have a knock on rating in Europe, and strangely enough, one entity that stands to benefit most from this on Monday morning is the US Treasury. Strange world, eh? Investors will most likely flee from stocks and into the hands of the US Government, as they have been doing all week.

    It is also important to remember that the US is a split-rated AAA country, since it still retains an AAA rating by two out of three SEC Credit ratings agencies, and only S&P have downgraded it.

    Therefore, there is no legal need for a massive US sell-off, as there could be if other credit ratings agencies followed suit.

    Either way, it's a monumental moment in US economic, and perhaps political, history.

    Wonder if this will drive the Chinese to flog their US bonds? I'm hearing reports that QE3 is very close for USA, can't imagine that's gonna do any good for them, if anything I'd say it's gonna push gold over $2000 an ounce, will see what happens, I'm no expert :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,089 ✭✭✭ascanbe


    This will give you a fair idea of what's happening, although, if things get as bad as they could be, i disagree with his hawking/bigging up of gold/silver as, even if you could access it instantly, it would be worth no more than the stones you can find outside your door, in the crucial short, and possibly long-term.
    Explains a lot in terms of how there has to be a complete change of course politically, if it's even possible, and rooting out of the bankers that control everything, if there's to be the kind of change that can prevent collapse.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,604 ✭✭✭Kev_ps3


    Well America has been far too powerful for too long now, they have used their power like by invading countless countries and killing countless people. They need their wings clipped a bit. All this should be welcomed.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,788 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    Ah, I'm thinking quite happily now of the guy who gave me rolly eyes and told me there's no economic problems in America in another topic :rolleyes:


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭pragmatic1


    Kev_ps3 wrote: »
    Well America has been far too powerful for too long now, they have used their power like by invading countless countries and killing countless people. They need their wings clipped a bit. All this should be welcomed.
    The US has been very good to our little country and US companies have provided employment for a large number of Irish people. I hope they're a superpower for a very long time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,604 ✭✭✭Kev_ps3


    pragmatic1 wrote: »
    The US has been very good to our little country and US companies have provided employment for a large number of Irish people. I hope they're a superpower for a very long time.

    Yeah well you can hope all you want, they wont be.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,414 ✭✭✭kraggy


    Max Keiser shares the frustration of most people in this country here





    He slates Fitzpatrick, Quinn and Drumm. Proper order.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭FrostyJack


    Kev_ps3 wrote: »
    Well America has been far too powerful for too long now, they have used their power like by invading countless countries and killing countless people. They need their wings clipped a bit. All this should be welcomed.

    What a childish, ignorant World view.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,604 ✭✭✭Kev_ps3


    FrostyJack wrote: »
    What a childish, ignorant World view.

    Let me guess, you think they are the good guys, and they are bringing freedom around the world? Now who is being childish.


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  • Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Julius Itchy Program


    Kev_ps3 wrote: »
    Let me guess, you think they are the good guys, and they are bringing freedom around the world? Now who is being childish.

    still you


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 867 ✭✭✭Mr. Denton


    Kev_ps3 wrote: »
    Well America has been far too powerful for too long now, they have used their power like by invading countless countries and killing countless people. They need their wings clipped a bit. All this should be welcomed.

    Well if it's not them then it'll just be someone else. It's how capitalism works. When China takes over the show they'll probably behave just the same (or worse).


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,788 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    Kev_ps3 wrote: »
    Let me guess, you think they are the good guys, and they are bringing freedom around the world? Now who is being childish.

    You realise that the knock on effect will likely lead to Ireland and other countries outside of America getting badly hurt and affected by this as well? This is something which will affect far more than just America, and its naive to think it's a "good thing".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,892 ✭✭✭spank_inferno


    Kev_ps3 wrote: »
    Well America has been far too powerful for too long now, they have used their power like by invading countless countries and killing countless people. They need their wings clipped a bit. All this should be welcomed.

    You sir, have no clue what you are talking about.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭Messi2


    If you didn't read the news you wouldn't know anything about it.

    Yes it's bad, but staying up all hours worrying about what's happening in another country is not a way I want to live my life. Life is too short.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    You realise that the knock on effect will likely lead to Ireland and other countries outside of America getting badly hurt and affected by this as well? This is something which will affect far more than just America, and its naive to think it's a "good thing".

    it's made $2,000 this week thanks to the dollar drop against the euro, thats a good thing in my book


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,215 ✭✭✭Mrmoe


    This is not much of a surprise. Most of the turmoil across the world is caused by political inaction or ineptitude.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    go on the default


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    I wish people would stop saying things like "watch max keiser and you should get a good idea of what's happening"

    No you really, really won't.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    You realise that the knock on effect will likely lead to Ireland and other countries outside of America getting badly hurt and affected by this as well? This is something which will affect far more than just America, and its naive to think it's a "good thing".
    Indeed, I would say that, for many reasons, this is something that will hurt other countries far more than America. It's slightly laughable that people are 'delighted for America' considering that American treasuries are likely to benefit from a sell off in European equities over the coming days.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    I don't think Kev_ps3 thinks these things through (or at all). He just hates the USA (and de Brits of course!)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭FrostyJack


    Kev_ps3 wrote: »
    Let me guess, you think they are the good guys, and they are bringing freedom around the world? Now who is being childish.

    Where did I say that? Everything isn't black and white in this World, hopefully one day you come to realise it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,191 ✭✭✭✭Latchy


    Talk of a double dip recession on the cards but it might just be another scary story in the world of global economics .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭123balltv


    were ****ed already but with America down and out
    were defo ****ed :mad:


  • Posts: 4,186 ✭✭✭ Anne Lazy Sawhorse


    They are still rated AA+ by S&P and still AAA rated by Moddy's. Your pension funds and banks will still be buying bonds from them on monday morning.

    USA isnt Ireland, their ability to generate the money needed to pay off their debt is unlike any other world economy, hopefully this means congress has to wake up and realise the wealthy need to take some of the hit in tax bills etc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    I have to agree, this is a big story, but in terms of the US sovereign, is largely symbolic. Lets not lose the run of ourselves, the US has a split rating, as affirmed by AAAs from Moodys and Fitch a few days ago, not a straight downgrade across the board.

    This is an important development, indeed, but some of the media are going a little over the top on this one.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 836 ✭✭✭uberalles




    Anyone see "Inside Job". Academy Award winning documentary.
    http://www.sonyclassics.com/insidejob/

    These rating agencies are the same w*nkers that gave bundled sub prime mortgages AAA ratings so pension funds could invest in them.

    When asked how they have been so wrong? they replied – “it was just our opinion”.

    They like coke and hookers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    It is both disturbing and sinister the amount of influence these credit rating agencies have on world economies. Their decisions usually create a negative domino effect through the markets. Surely it's time to review/curtail the influence they have.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 359 ✭✭messymess


    Couple of thoughts on this ...

    How soon do you think it will be before some of the high ranking execs at S&P's have their extra marital affairs etc dragged out of the closet by the US gov as a way to say '**** you'.

    Also, if the IMF ever need to loan money to the USA, how quickly do you think that will happen? Considering they locked up their top guy for a few months because a maid with inks to serious criminality made a bogus sexual assault claim.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,191 ✭✭✭✭Latchy


    I know it's the Daily Mail but you'll see similar articles in all the mainstream newspapers and this (link below) from Dominic Sandbrook is as interesting as any.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2022993/DOMINIC-SANDBROOK-Capitalism-crisis-warning-history-Eighty-years-ago-banking-collapse-devastated-Europe-triggering-war-Today-faith-free-markets-faltering-again.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,751 ✭✭✭MyPeopleDrankTheSoup


    uberalles wrote: »


    Anyone see "Inside Job". Academy Award winning documentary.
    http://www.sonyclassics.com/insidejob/

    These rating agencies are the same w*nkers that gave bundled sub prime mortgages AAA ratings so pension funds could invest in them.

    When asked how they have been so wrong? they replied – “it was just our opinion”.

    They like coke and hookers.

    this isn't really aimed at you but i am sick of people who've seen this one, biased,michael moore style documentary and suddenly they're experts on the financial crisis.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    Kev_ps3 wrote: »
    Yeah well you can hope all you want, they wont be.

    THey certainly will be barring some sort of catastrophe, they just wont be the only superpower.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    They are still rated AA+ by S&P and still AAA rated by Moddy's. Your pension funds and banks will still be buying bonds from them on monday morning.

    USA isnt Ireland, their ability to generate the money needed to pay off their debt is unlike any other world economy, hopefully this means congress has to wake up and realise the wealthy need to take some of the hit in tax bills etc.

    It was a judgment on the political will and climate to get things done, rather than a shot at the American ability to pay debt with regards to a purely economic outlook.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    messymess wrote: »
    Couple of thoughts on this ...

    How soon do you think it will be before some of the high ranking execs at S&P's have their extra marital affairs etc dragged out of the closet by the US gov as a way to say '**** you'.

    Also, if the IMF ever need to loan money to the USA, how quickly do you think that will happen? Considering they locked up their top guy for a few months because a maid with inks to serious criminality made a bogus sexual assault claim.

    Oh, come on, this is just nonsense.

    S&P didn't say anything that the dogs in the street don't know: political gridlock is affecting the US's ability to reduce its debt. Yet come Monday, the world will still buy t-bills.

    Also, I highly doubt that the US will ever need an IMF loan.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    messymess wrote: »
    How soon do you think it will be before some of the high ranking execs at S&P's have their extra marital affairs etc dragged out of the closet by the US gov as a way to say '**** you'.

    Theyre not politicians/celebrities/sports stars. Other than those directly involved/affected hardly anyone knows who these people are letalone gives a flying fiddlers about how much they partake in the joys of coke and hookers.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,915 ✭✭✭cursai


    Buy Turf its gonna be a rare commodity soon!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 836 ✭✭✭uberalles



    this isn't really aimed at you but i am sick of people who've seen this one, biased,michael moore style documentary and suddenly they're experts on the financial crisis.


    I dont take it personally. Im fairly well informed and my opinion is not just based on seeing one documentary. Im well researched on the subject.

    Im intitled to my opinion as is everone else.

    This thread is specifically about S&P. My post is directly relevant.

    if I remember correctly someone representing S&P was being grilled at some sort of enquiry in the USA. He was asked a direct question - why had his ratings company given AAA status to complete crap. “It was just our opinion”. They put their stamp of approval on crap which allowed pension funds to invest in it and loose investors money. Without AAA status managers wouldn’t have been able to risk hard working peoples money.

    They get bonuses if they are right. No claw back if they are wrong.

    These senior bankers are w*nkers. They have no shame.





  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    CRAs are not banks. Nor are CRAs staffed by bankers.

    They are concerned with risk analysis.

    There are procedures that preclude such key individuals from criss-crossing into the banking sector or having outside interests, including shareholdings and directorships, or other paid positions which could compromise their influence over ratings decisions.

    It's unclear why you refer to senior bankers in the context of ratings agencies. Presumably CRAs get delivered to that angry black box in your brain with BWANKRZ written on it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,939 ✭✭✭ballsymchugh


    this isn't really aimed at you but i am sick of people who've seen this one, biased,michael moore style documentary and suddenly they're experts on the financial crisis.

    inside job makes you want to get a rifle and plant yourself across the road from wall street and pick off a few people.

    they did make an interesting point on the ratings agencies though. i hadn't heard so much about them before they were hacking away at ireland's credit rating, but to think that they rated AIG as AAA the day before it was bailed out, and then to say things like it's only an opinion makes you wonder why their opinion is quoted so much.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Mr. Denton wrote: »
    Well if it's not them then it'll just be someone else. It's how capitalism works. When China takes over the show they'll probably behave just the same (or worse).

    +1

    Im as up for having a go at US foreign policy as the next guy but the prospect of China succeeding the US as a "superpower" anytime soon is just :eek:


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,202 ✭✭✭amacca


    if this continued indefinitely, sooner or later..Standard and Poors, Moodys, Fitch etc will have very little left to downgrade...it would all either have reached junk status or be a triple A rated bubble.

    except that wont happen will it?............its all to interlinked...................too many opposing forces...not enough profit to be made and the potential for huge unpalatable losses for too many people no matter what your net worth is.

    Am I wrong in thinking there will be a solution that will more than likely preserve the euro, keep the dollar more or less intact etc..it will just be a long drawn out messy solution because currently politicians are running around like rabbits caught in the headlights of an oncoming car but they wont/cant continue with this?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    ibut to think that they rated AIG as AAA the day before it was bailed out, and then to say things like it's only an opinion makes you wonder why their opinion is quoted so much.

    Because nothing, and i mean nothing, sells quite like bad news.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 836 ✭✭✭uberalles


    inside job makes you want to get a rifle and plant yourself across the road from wall street and pick off a few people.

    they did make an interesting point on the ratings agencies though. i hadn't heard so much about them before they were hacking away at ireland's credit rating, but to think that they rated AIG as AAA the day before it was bailed out, and then to say things like it's only an opinion makes you wonder why their opinion is quoted so much.

    Exactly. They get it so wrong a lot of the time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,876 ✭✭✭Spread


    I wonder what Tim Geithner will think of this after telling everyone, back in April, that S&P's valuation would be OK. 'Twould be nice if himself and that other well known con Krugman, could be sat together at the table and forced to give their explanation on the differences between the US's plight and that of their bete noir - Ireland.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    You think Ireland is the Fed's bête noire? That's almost funny.

    Ireland is the piece of dirt under the little toenail, of the little insect, crawling around in the slurry pit that is the ongoing financial crisis. As a single entity, we really, really do not figure anywhere.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    Spread wrote: »
    I wonder what Tim Geithner will think of this after telling everyone, back in April, that S&P's valuation would be OK. 'Twould be nice if himself and that other well known con Krugman, could be sat together at the table and forced to give their explanation on the differences between the US's plight and that of their bete noir - Ireland.

    One is the world's biggest economy that controls the world's reserve currency while the other has a smaller population than the Greater Chicago area?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    +1

    Im as up for having a go at US foreign policy as the next guy but the prospect of China succeeding the US as a "superpower" anytime soon is just :eek:

    doesnt the states owe china $1.14 trillion as things stand?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,751 ✭✭✭MyPeopleDrankTheSoup


    inside job makes you want to get a rifle and plant yourself across the road from wall street and pick off a few people.

    it just annoyed me with the sensationalism, like they asked some guy a question, he was silent for a second, then they cut away. what was the point of that?

    i only got real good info in books, especially 'too big to fail' by andrew ross sorkin, it was a gerald loeb winner. NOT the docu-drama they made from it, i assume that's crap


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Helix wrote: »
    doesnt the states owe china $1.14 trillion as things stand?

    Yes but on the other hand the US buys a lot of crap off them.

    They are both heavily dependent on each other and it may not be an entirely bad thing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    I'm going to start investing all my money in gold come Monday morning. The Euro and Dollar are going to become worthless!

    I'm preparing for "Wall Street Crash 2.0".

    I envisage the rest of the 2010's and early 2020's being like or worse than the Great Depression of the 1930's.

    On a separate note, we should keep an eye on the Chinese government; they're calling for a new "world currency". I found that quite unsettling.


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