My Dell Laptop is suffering from a known fault - what are my rights?

DubDJ

Hoping somebody could help me out here on what I should do.

I have a Dell XPS M1530 laptop and have had it since July 2008. However this brand and model of laptop is known to suffer with a fault to the built in Nvidia Graphics processer unit with caused the screen to freeze up and laptop to also freeze. I've only recently found out what the extent of the problem is after it happening to me a few days now.

After a little help from the bordsies i've found a few articles about the problem. The first explains the problem that occurs.

They have acknowledged the issue and in turn posted this saying the warranties on these machines would be extended for a further year (until July 2010).

However this means I am now over one year out of warranty and probably can not get a straight forward repair.

My question is what are my rights here and what am I entitled to?

Here is another similar post to mine which states the problem with a person taking their issue to the Small Claims court. I don't fancy going through all that hassle.

However I do think a laptop which I paid over €1,200 for to last a little more than 3 years. It is my understanding that I should really be offered a free repair or something as compensation to pay for a repair if this product hasn't lasted a reasonable amount of time (which is somewhere in consumer law i'm sure)

I'm going to email dell technical support now about my problem

Any help or suggestions would be appriciated,

Thanks

oldmantime

Pretty sure the standard is how long could you reasonably expect it to work for, a €1200 euro laptop, with a known, acknowledged fault should work for more than 3 years. Contact them and see what they say, if not, try your luck in the small claims court.

DubDJ

oldmantime wrote: »

Pretty sure the standard is how long could you reasonably expect it to work for, a €1200 euro laptop, with a known, acknowledged fault should work for more than 3 years. Contact them and see what they say, if not, try your luck in the small claims court.

Yeah I thought the same myself. It's too pricey to be repaired on my behalf and wouldn't be worth it as it would probably cost the same as if I was to sell the laptop now (without the fault)

Thanks for the reply.

BostonB

Why would the small claims be hassle.

DubDJ

BostonB wrote: »

Why would the small claims be hassle.

I've never tried make a claim before but I just assumed it would be long and drawn out. And costly to me as I need a laptop. I can see the laptop going for good soon enough.

BostonB

The current fee for making a claim in the Small Claims Court is €15.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/courts_system/small_claims_court.html

DubDJ

BostonB wrote: »

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/courts_system/small_claims_court.html

Just read through there and it seems a lot more straight forward than I thought. If Dell won't help me out then I'll be getting onto the small claims court about it. Thanks for your help so far

Tow

We have had 100% failure rate on a dozen of the M1330s. We got the last original one repaired free of charge (well out of extended warranty period) a few weeks ago. The first few were easy to get fixed, but had to kick up a fuss for the last one. At this stage I think the easiest way to kick up enough fuss is the small claims court. Have you contacted them for a repair? You will need to exhaust normal channels before taking the court case. Then once they get offical notice of the case they will probably do the repair, as it is cheaper than sending one of their legal staff to court to represent them.

BTW we have been told that NVIDIA are picking up the bulk of the repair costs, so in the end it does not cost DELL much.

The problem here is, even if you do get the motherboard replaced, it will happen again at some stage down the road. All of the GeForce 8 series GPUs are inherently faulty, the only permanent fix for the 1330s and 1530s is to replace the motherboard with the version with (inferior) Intel video.

DubDJ

Tow wrote: »

We have had 100% failure rate on a dozen of the M1330s. We got the last original one repaired free of charge (well out of extended warranty period) a few weeks ago. The first few were easy to get fixed, but had to kick up a fuss for the last one. At this stage I think the easiest way to kick up enough fuss is the small claims court. Have you contacted them for a repair? You will need to exhaust normal channels before taking the court case. Then once they get offical notice of the case they will probably do the repair, as it is cheaper than sending one of their legal staff to court to represent them.

BTW we have been told that NVIDIA are picking up the bulk of the repair costs, so in the end it does not cost DELL much.

Yeah I couldn't find a technical support email because it kept telling me I was out of warranty but I did find one for the uk and Ireland customer complaints. So I sent the email onto that and I'm just waiting to hear a reply. I'm going to spend time and try a few different email sources to see if I can get a result. Then if all else fails I'll contact the small claims court and have a bunch of emails from them to go along with the application.

Hopefully they'll agree to the free repair. Otherwise I feel I've been majorly ripped off.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Mine must be the only M1530 that hasn't had the graphics card fail (yet)!

Let us know how you get on OP.

DubDJ

Karsini wrote: »

The problem here is, even if you do get the motherboard replaced, it will happen again at some stage down the road. All of the GeForce 8 series GPUs are inherently faulty, the only permanent fix for the 1330s and 1530s is to replace the motherboard with the version with (inferior) Intel video.

I read something like it was a problem with the solder they used on the GPU. When it heats up it gets soft and once it's cooled it goes hard again and cracks. I thought this was something small and they'd addressed the problem so once it gets fixed that's that. It's a disgrace for a company such as Dell to not even warn customers with a quick email or so on. I didn't know of the problem until yesterday. Maybe it won't be a repair I look for but rather a replacement for a similar powered laptop without the inherent GPU problem.

BearNecessities wrote: »

Mine must be the only M1530 that hasn't had the graphics card fail (yet)!

Let us know how you get on OP.

Well let's hope this doesnt happen to your laptop. Maybe your's was the exception to the rule

I'll let you know how things fair out.

DubDJ

DubDJ wrote: »

I read something like it was a problem with the solder they used on the GPU. When it heats up it gets soft and once it's cooled it goes hard again and cracks. I thought this was something small and they'd addressed the problem so once it gets fixed that's that. It's a disgrace for a company such as Dell to not even warn customers with a quick email or so on. I didn't know of the problem until yesterday. Maybe it won't be a repair I look for but rather a replacement for a similar powered laptop without the inherent GPU problem.

This is correct. NVIDIA used lead-free solder rather than leaded solder (due to the RoHS legislation) and this has a lower melting point. However another problem is that the cooling system in these laptops is insufficient, the same heatsink is shared with the CPU and northbridge chipset, so the GPU runs hot all the time. This is also an issue with other models such as the HP DV6000/DV9000 series.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

DubDJ wrote: »

...

Well let's hope this doesnt happen to your laptop. Maybe your's was the exception to the rule

I'll let you know how things fair out.

Cheers OP.

I think I bought mine around Xmas 2007 (it was only out a few weeks), so it's coming up on four years. If I can get another year or two I'd be happy!

DubDJ

Karsini wrote: »

This is correct. NVIDIA used lead-free solder rather than leaded solder (due to the RoHS legislation) and this has a lower melting point. However another problem is that the cooling system in these laptops is insufficient, the same heatsink is shared with the CPU and northbridge chipset, so the GPU runs hot all the time. This is also an issue with other models such as the HP DV6000/DV9000 series.

As soon as I read the details of the problem it all made sense. It said they issued a driver update that increased the speed of the cooling fan. To try combat the heating problem. And after having this laptop a while it just started sounding like an engine. Every now again it speeds up really fast and it sounds like a jet engine starting up or something. Even one day I was using it in my college library and people were turning around looking because the noise was so loud. My laptop has always heated up more than it should of in all the time I've had it.

BostonB

Your only option is to ask Dell, and if they ignore it, then small claims court.


http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1004378/why-nvidia-chips-defective

Its a chipset problem. If you laptop runs hot it will happen quicker. It happens with all these graphic chipsets of that family so will effect all brands including Apple if they use it. Nvidia 8400, 8600 etc.

There is no fix.

Problems
Dell became aware that the problem was limited to Nvidia chip production G84- and G86-GPU's, the BIOS was updated to A12 which improves thermal control but does not prevent it from reoccurring.[19] The problem associated with Nvidia GPU's was the chip material used could not stand high temperatures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_XPS#XPS_M1530

Its not fixable though. Any replacement of the same model/motherboard will have the same problem eventually. You could change how you use it to prolong its life.

I don't really see the point of the 8400 one its not really powerful enough to be useful so in a M1330 replacing it with Intel GFX your not going to lose much, and the laptop will be much more reliable. We have one with the intel and its 4yrs old and no problems.

The M1530 only has the option of the 8400 and 8600. But as the 8600 is a decent enough gfx. Intel gfx isn't an option. But if you avoid playing 3D games, and watching the temps, you could probably avoid the problem. The 8400 might run a bit cooler than the 8600, I don't know. You could buy the 9 cell battery which would life up the laptop at back so the vents underneath run cooler.

Don't ignore high temps in any PC but especially a laptop.

DubDJ

BostonB wrote: »

Your only option is to ask Dell, and if they ignore it, then small claims court.


http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1004378/why-nvidia-chips-defective

Its a chipset problem. If you laptop runs hot it will happen quicker. It happens with all these graphic chipsets of that family so will effect all brands including Apple if they use it. Nvidia 8400, 8600 etc.

There is no fix.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_XPS#XPS_M1530

Its not fixable though. Any replacement of the same model/motherboard will have the same problem eventually. You could change how you use it to prolong its life.

I don't really see the point of the 8400 one its not really powerful enough to be useful so in a M1330 replacing it with Intel GFX your not going to lose much, and the laptop will be much more reliable. We have one with the intel and its 4yrs old and no problems.

The M1530 only has the option of the 8400 and 8600. But as the 8600 is a decent enough gfx. Intel gfx isn't an option. But if you avoid playing 3D games, and watching the temps, you could probably avoid the problem. The 8400 might run a bit cooler than the 8600, I don't know. You could buy the 9 cell battery which would life up the laptop at back so the vents underneath run cooler.

Don't ignore high temps in any PC but especially a laptop.

Yeah it's really pointless on their behalf but if they do replace it and it lasts another 3 years i'll be happy ans thats money's worth. But 3 years is not.

I actually have a 9 cell battery a few months now after my other couldnt hold a charge for 40 minutes.
It seems to have helped with the cooling a bit but not by much.

Thanks for the tips BostonB.

Dymo

This thread is a bit like deja vu, every couple of months there seems to be a thread about the Dell XPS M1530. I have one myself so I'm expecting it to go bang any day now. Harvey Norman had a laptop for sale for €350 last week with the same specs, so a repair seems out of the question.

Why would the small claims be hassle.

Because you will have to turn up to a courtroom full of scumbags, wait a couple of hours until your case is called then go into the witness box and state your case. The laptop being 3 years old is not going to help, and the judge will have to take wear and tear into consideration so the outcome might en be that great.

Its a full day gone, I'd go down the Dell route and then as a last resort go down the small claims court route if you want.

BostonB

After 3yrs that laptop is worth about 150 tops, even if didn't have a design flaw. So if Dell don't sort it out, and tbh sometimes that are decent about these things. I'm not sure I'd spend a day in court for that. You could sell the laptop for parts and recoup most of that. Then just buy a much newer laptop for 500 or so.

ShatterProof

Dymo wrote: »

.........Because you will have to turn up to a courtroom full of scumbags, wait a couple of hours until your case is called then go into the witness box and state your case.............

HUH?????

CrinkElite

A friend of mine picked up a check yesterday for over E800.
He had bought a sony vaio with a dedicated nvidia 8400.
the laptop failed just outside the warranty but he took them to the small claims court.
He paid a local tech company about E60 to certify that the problem was due to a failing GPU.
They fobbed him off a few times but finally agreed to repair it with a warranty of 90 days.
They must have heat gunned the motherboard because the GPU began failing almost immediately even though the repair documentation stated that the motherboard had been replaced. (sneaky)
He went back to the small claims court and demanded cash compensation.
yesterday he received about 65% of the original purchase price.

this fault was caused by nvidia. Don't take it lying down.

I don't want to libel anyone so I won't say who the reseller is.
(you know the way things are <SNIP>)

DubDJ

Well I still haven't heard anything back from Dellmand I emailed Thursday. It was an Irish office and all so I thought I'd get a reply easier rather than ringing up their over seas call centres. Does anyone have a technical support email or anything of the sort for Dell? It won't give it to me from the site because it keeps saying my warranty has expired.

I do intend on taking this further. I can't afford a laptop right now and have college repeats to be studying for but my laptop is just completely useless now. Before it would come and go with the GPU problem but it now seems to have become permanent. I'm using my iPad at the moment but if it wasn't for it I don't know how I could get anything done on a Sunday afternoon with no Laptop. I won't be buying from Dell again I tell you.

I just don't understand how they weren't recalled or something. Selling a product which is essentially a ticking time-bomb and at a premium price. Very annoyed at the moment.

CrinkElite

I wouldn't get too upset with DELL, I'm not a fan of them myself but this is a result of bad practice and incompetence at Nvidia.
They've put a lot of resellers in a very difficult position by damaging consumer confidence.

http://www.nvidiadefect.com/

You can talk to others who've had the same problem at the above site.

DubDJ

CrinkElite wrote: »

I wouldn't get too upset with DELL, I'm not a fan of them myself but this is a result of bad practice and incompetence at Nvidia.
They've put a lot of resellers in a very difficult position by damaging consumer confidence.

http://www.nvidiadefect.com/

You can talk to others who've had the same problem at the above site.

Thanks for the link CrinkElite. Going to get onto the site and try get some help. Seems the way to go is damages or refund rather than repair. I'll keep the post updated.

subway

Why don't you just call dell?
All the details are clearly on the site. (who did you mail?)

DubDJ

subway wrote: »

Why don't you just call dell?
All the details are clearly on the site. (who did you mail?)

I've read on other Threads that you are patched through to call centres in India which is a waste of time. Email not only has an Irish address but also allows me to keep a record of all transactions between myself and Dell.

Which is why i'm aiming for that.

subway

It's unlikely you'll get a response if you won't go through the proper channels.
Tha will affect any claim you try to make

I've been through this a few times ( not with dell). Log the call with the call centre. Get rejected, ask for a supervisor and a written response. Reply to tell them you are going to court and why youwill win. They will then contact the right person who will wither accept or reject your claim. They you get it fixed or you goto court

If you are emailing a person in Dublin, they are very unlikely to be the right person to help you

DubDJ

subway wrote: »

It's unlikely you'll get a response if you won't go through the proper channels.
Tha will affect any claim you try to make

I've been through this a few times ( not with dell). Log the call with the call centre. Get rejected, ask for a supervisor and a written response. Reply to tell them you are going to court and why youwill win. They will then contact the right person who will wither accept or reject your claim. They you get it fixed or you goto court

If you are emailing a person in Dublin, they are very unlikely to be the right person to help you

Well i'm getting help from the Nvidiadefect.com website which seems to say i've to contact head office which would probably be the irish email. Theres no point in getting onto a Indian Callcentre where they probably wont be threatened by this as Irish consumer law is different.

subway

That's a uk forum with, I presume, no idea of our system.
I think adyou going to end up in scc you should just go through normal process . You dont need to contact head office o anything like that

BostonB

DubDJ wrote: »

...I won't be buying from Dell again I tell you.

I just don't understand how they weren't recalled or something. Selling a product which is essentially a ticking time-bomb and at a premium price. Very annoyed at the moment.

As others said, it wasn't Dell's fault, it was Nvidia's, so boycott them if anything. All the laptop makers AFAIK had the same problem. Why they weren't all pulled I have no idea. As soon as they could they all switched to ATI.

DubDJ

BostonB wrote: »

As others said, it wasn't Dell's fault, it was Nvidia's, so boycott them if anything. All the laptop makers AFAIK had the same problem. Why they weren't all pulled I have no idea. As soon as they could they all switched to ATI.

Yeah but my contract was with DELL not Nvidia. And the fact that DELL didn't recall them is the annoying part. I read somewhere that once it was discovered Apple led their own investigation and admitted there was a problem and offered a free repair to anyone who suffered with the problem. Why couldn't DELL do the same?

In July 2008, NVIDIA publicly acknowledged a higher than normal failure rate for some of their graphics processors due to a packaging defect. At that same time, NVIDIA assured Apple that Mac computers with these graphics processors were not affected. However, after an Apple-led investigation, Apple has determined that some MacBook Pro computers with the NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT graphics processor may be affected. If the NVIDIA graphics processor in your MacBook Pro has failed, or fails within two years of the original date of purchase, a repair will be done free of charge, even if your MacBook Pro is out of warranty.

My loyalty lies with a company who's able to do the right things. Plus they also have a great customer care team.

BostonB

Fair point. I wasn't defending dell, if thats how it appeared. All sellers of these laptops should have taken them back.

DubDJ

BostonB wrote: »

Fair point. I wasn't defending dell, if thats how it appeared. All sellers of these laptops should have taken them back.

Yeah i've always been a big fan of DELL until this laptop and it's been giving me problems. I'm just gonna change to Apple once this get's sorted. I find their stuff easier and more reliable to use, plus as I now own an iPhone and iPad it's good to have them all in sync.

Gonna try ring DELL up today. No reply from email anyway.

FGR

Definitely phone them first before going down the SCC route. I'm currently in the process and after being pushed around getting little to no satisfaction am due in the SCC soon.

That nvidiadefect site is good for guidelines as to how to go about it all. I got an independent technician report to clarify the problem yet when sent to Dell they still deny it. The letters received from the solicitors are intimidating to say the least but I'm not too bothered by those kind of tactics. Win or lose it's only going to cost 15 euros.

DubDJ

Just thought I'd update this with what happened.

I called tech support. Very rude Indian rep on the phone that made me do a number of tests which took a long time. Then I got a hard drive related error. He insisted my problems were related to that even though I explained my screen was the problem. He offered a repair with a new HDD but it would cost €200+. Very rude and bad experience and he kept cutting across me every time I spoke.

I used the template letter from nvidiadefect.com and sent off a registered letter to their office in Ireland. Less than 24 hours later I received a call from the corporate office from an Indian guy. Again he insisted it was a hard drive problem. I told him two people had told me otherwise. He then agreed to send a courier to collect it and they'd do their own independent check up. I said only if they'd give me a guarantee on the nvidia chip if it was replaced and he gave me a 5 year one through email.

However around a week later after I had it collected I received it back. The report stated they had replaced the hard drive and cleaned the heatsink. I then received a call next day and he explained that they had given me a one time free repair. And I wasn't charged for the HDD replacement.

The indian lad from the corporate office was very helpful. He kept in regular contact with updates and was a great communicator. Have to say now my laptop is running smoothly again and it doesn't heat up or make the loud fan noise it did previously. No screen issue either.

So for now problem solved. It still strikes me strange that they still replaced the HDD for free even thought they said I'd have to pay if it wasn't the chip. I just hope it's a permanent fix.