Historical Enquiries Team

steddyeddy

For anyone who doesnt know the historical enquiries team is a division within the psni of northern ireland to try and investigate over 3000 unsolved murders in northern ireland. What are your expectations of this and what do you hope will come out of it?

I think it will give us a true picture of the amount of innocent deaths in the north (eg no relation to ira or uvf but murdered because of their religion ect). Their work is being seconded by a team from england to ensure independence. What side has the most to lose from this? In my opinion its the state itself as we can be sure there was collusion at least on some level.

OhNoYouDidn't

I think the way things stand its a divisive waste of time and money. While I understand families need for closure, on the grounds no-one will go to jail for any of these killings, what is the point?

Do one of two things:

- simply close the book on Paramilitary and British State murder squad killings from 69-93 and move on

- a South African style Truth and Reconciliation Commission where Republican's, Loyalists and both States honestly and without legal consequence admit to what they did and all of what they did.

The latter is a far more satisfactory outcome, but the British are blocking it.

KeithAFC

Nothing will come of it.

steddyeddy

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I think the way things stand its a divisive waste of time and money. While I understand families need for closure, on the grounds no-one will go to jail for any of these killings, what is the point?

Do one of two things:

- simply close the book on Paramilitary and British State murder squad killings from 69-93 and move on

- a South African style Truth and Reconciliation Commission where Republican's, Loyalists and both States honestly and without legal consequence admit to what they did and all of what they did.

The latter is a far more satisfactory outcome, but the British are blocking it.

As regards the latter that would indeed be more apealing and indeed warranted. I think most people accept the fact that there was state murder, collusion and the bogotry went on in the north but it would be nice to see this in numbers. The closest we have come to honesty in the past has been Peter Taylor's documentarys on both sides of the paramilitaries and the british state atrocities.

As regards no legal consequnces many people in the north already got away with murders there are people in government on both sides who have a shady past to say the least but I would be happy with the facts known. For example the bloody sunday enquiry painted those soldiers as murderers nothing more surely that is some relief for the vicitms familys.

sollar

I hope it digs deep and uses all the power at its disposal to prosecute some of the Loyalist Paramilitaries that got off light during the actual troubles.

steddyeddy

sollar wrote: »

I hope it digs deep and uses all the power at its disposal to prosecute some of the Loyalist Paramilitaries that got off light during the actual troubles.

Exactly thats what im looking for. These people killed because of religion in a first world country. In fairness whatever the enquiries team are coming up with see,s to have the uvf causing riots and throwing tantrums as a result.

Sunnyisland

I cant see anything coming of it, It would open more wounds that healing them and I would guess that the loyalist community would see it as another attack on them as most of the sectarian killers and killings were from that community. The way forward is the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

steddyeddy

realies wrote: »

I cant see anything coming of it, It would open more wounds that healing them and I would guess that the loyalist community would see it as another attack on them as most of the sectarian killers and killings were from that community. The way forward is the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

A lot of the loyalist communtiy seeing being a catholic as an attack on the community theres only so much nonsense we should listen too. I agree the truth and reconciliation commision woul be required.

Sunnyisland

steddyeddy wrote: »

A lot of the loyalist community seeing being a catholic as an attack on the community there's only so much nonsense we should listen too. I agree the truth and reconciliation commision would be required.

Dont understand this steddyeddy,

KeithAFC

steddyeddy wrote: »

A lot of the loyalist communtiy seeing being a catholic as an attack on the community theres only so much nonsense we should listen too. I agree the truth and reconciliation commision woul be required.

lol at truth and reconciliation commision. It will never happen. Too many people are in big jobs now to allow that to happen. Gerry Adams being one of them. The Republican movement should just get over it and accept what happened.

steddyeddy

realies wrote: »

Dont understand this steddyeddy,

Sorry man I should explain I was thinking along the lines of the holy cross dispute ect catholics walking through areas perceived as loylaist were seen as a threat by nationalists.

Sunnyisland

steddyeddy wrote: »

Sorry man I should explain I was thinking along the lines of the holy cross dispute ect catholics walking through areas perceived as loyalist were seen as a threat by nationalists.

Are you ok Steddyeddy Do you not mean catholics walking through loyalist areas were seen as a threat by loyalists.

steddyeddy

realies wrote: »

Are you ok Steddyeddy Do you not mean catholics walking through loyalist areas were seen as a threat by loyalists.

Whoops sorry yes indeed I do. I think it is important to have all this in black and white so the next generation wont make the same mistakes.

Sunnyisland

:p pour out that beer you have enough :D

KeithAFC

We would all like to know the truth and why people did things. Like the provo priest in Claudy and Gerry Adams on leading the disappeared squad.

Sunnyisland

KeithAFC wrote: »

We would all like to know the true and why people did things. Like the provo priest in Claudy and Gerry Adams on leading the disappeared squad.

We can all make a list of things we want,so lets not derail this thread with individual aspects of the times.

Whats your view on it keith would you welcome and encourage it or is best to leave it well alone.

KeithAFC

realies wrote: »

We can all make a list of things we want,so lets not derail this thread with individual aspects of the times.

Whats your view on it keith would you welcome and encourage it or is best to leave it well alone.

Well i like to put a bit of balance into the threads realies. At the start of this thread, all we had was loyalist this and loyalist that and not one mention of the PIRA or any armed Republican group. I think it is important we get balance.

I have said it before, nothing will come of this when it is being called for by ex PIRA commanders in Gerry Adams and Sinn Fein. Everyone must come clean or just leave it alone. Simple as that. Sinn Fein should stop patronising people.

Sunnyisland

KeithAFC wrote: »

Well i like to put a bit of balance into the threads release. At the start of this thread, all we had was loyalist this and loyalist that and not one mention of the PIRA or any armed Republican group. I think it is important we get balance.

I have said it before, nothing will come of this when it is being called for by ex PIRA commanders in Gerry Adams and Sinn Fein. Everyone must come clean or just leave it alone. Simple as that. Sinn Fein should stop patronising people.

kinda of agree with you actually ;)

OhNoYouDidn't

KeithAFC wrote: »

We would all like to know the truth and why people did things. Like the provo priest in Claudy and Gerry Adams on leading the disappeared squad.

So Republican's should 'get over it' but Loyalists deserve answers?

You are a shambles Keith..

KeithAFC

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So Republican's should 'get over it' but Loyalists deserve answers?

You are a shambles Keith..

No. I said we would all like the answers to the truth but it ain't going to happen when people high up can't even admit it. Some are only interested in what the Ulster volunteers did. Never mind the PIRA is the mentality i seemed to see at the start of this thread.


Perhaps when Gerry and co can admit officially what the dogs on the street know, then perhaps the PUL people might listen to what they have to say.

steddyeddy

KeithAFC wrote: »

Well i like to put a bit of balance into the threads realies. At the start of this thread, all we had was loyalist this and loyalist that and not one mention of the PIRA or any armed Republican group. I think it is important we get balance.

I have said it before, nothing will come of this when it is being called for by ex PIRA commanders in Gerry Adams and Sinn Fein. Everyone must come clean or just leave it alone. Simple as that. Sinn Fein should stop patronising people.

I think the enquiries team should investigate the pira of course. Balance and truth is important of course.

steddyeddy

KeithAFC wrote: »

No. I said we would all like the answers to the truth but it ain't going to happen when people high up can't even admit it. Some are only interested in what the Ulster volunteers did. Never mind the PIRA is the mentality i seemed to see at the start of this thread.


Perhaps when Gerry and co can admit officially what the dogs on the street know, then perhaps the PUL people might listen to what they have to say.

PUL Kieth seriously Its ul as in ulster loyalists there are loyalists of all relgions but I agree that people high up need to admit their past.

KeithAFC

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think the enquiries team should investigate the pira of course. Balance and truth is important of course.

That wasn't what came across in the first few posts in this thread. Posts like the loyalists got away with a lot, well PIRA members got away with a lot. So much so, that some now work at Stormont and pick up a great wage every year.

KeithAFC

steddyeddy wrote: »

PUL Kieth seriously Its ul as in ulster loyalists there are loyalists of all relgions but I agree that people high up need to admit their past.

I don't think i should disrespect the people who hold their faith 1st and their politics 2nd. When i say PUL, it is exactly that. People with a strong conviction for their faith and it means everyhing to them and then the politics. This is why it is called PUL. The UL at the end should make you realise what group of people i am talking about.

Sunnyisland

Balance,truth,acceptance and forgiveness.

Now thats maybe a pipe dream.

steddyeddy

KeithAFC wrote: »

That wasn't what came across in the first few posts in this thread. Posts like the loyalists got away with a lot, well PIRA members got away with a lot. So much so, that some now work at Stormont and pick up a great wage every year.

I mentioned the loylaist keith because I have seen much condemnation of the pira on these threads but on the other side I see people saying its ok to shoot someone dead because friends of mine said he was in the ira. Theres a lack of comdemnation on both sides. I mean there was a chap in the the orange order (gerry spence) who described the shankill butchers as a decent bunch of lads. I have previously condemed certain attacks by the pira and even started a thread about the death of ronan kerr!

It doesnt help when some people then go on to describe the shankill buchers as a decent bunch of lads!

steddyeddy

KeithAFC wrote: »

I don't think i should disrespect the people who hold their faith 1st and their politics 2nd. When i say PUL, it is exactly that. People with a strong conviction for their faith and it means everyhing to them and then the politics. This is why it is called PUL. The UL at the end should make you realise what group of people i am talking about.

No it doesnt really calling it ul would be more accurate I dont think the loyalist movement are doing themselves any favours by excluding people with the same politics as them based on their religion.

Sunnyisland

Is this thread not going of track already, If there is truth to be told it has to be told from both sides about both sides.

steddyeddy

realies wrote: »

Is this thread not going of track already, If there is truth to be told it has to be told from both sides about both sides.

Yes indeed I think its fair to say both sides need to commit to the truth.

KeithAFC

steddyeddy wrote: »

I mentioned the loylaist keith because I have seen much condemnation of the pira on these threads but on the other side I see people saying its ok to shoot someone dead because friends of mine said he was in the ira. Theres a lack of comdemnation on both sides. I mean there was a chap in the the orange order (gerry spence) who described the shankill butchers as a decent bunch of lads. I have previously condemed certain attacks by the pira and even started a thread about the death of ronan kerr!

It doesnt help when some people then go on to describe the shankill buchers as a decent bunch of lads!

But what is the point you are trying to make Steddyeddy?

What about Gerry Adams helping carry the coffin of the guy who planted the bomb on the Shankill Road which slaughtered people. Is that any different? Not at all. He obviously supported his actions and thought what he did was right. He is now in government in the Irish Republic and got voted in.

It just goes in circles and will never end. This is why a truth and reconciliation process will never work on this island.

My point was in an ideal world we would all LOVE to know exactly what happened on all sides but then again, a lot of people would not be willing to tell the truth and many of them would be working in governments on this island. So it isn’t going to happen is it.

steddyeddy

KeithAFC wrote: »

But what is the point you are trying to make Steddyeddy?

What about Gerry Adams helping carry the coffin of the guy who planted the bomb on the Shankill Road which slaughtered people. Is that any different? Not at all. He obviously supported his actions and thought what he did was right. He is now in government in the Irish Republic and got voted in.

It just goes in circles and will never end. This is why a truth and reconciliation process will never work on this island.

My point was in an ideal world we would all LOVE to know exactly what happened on all sides but then again, a lot of people would not be willing to tell the truth and many of them would be working in governments on this island. So it isn’t going to happen is it.

My point is I agree with you keith! The other point I will say about both sides is that there was para military members on both sides in government but they were voted in by the people on both sides. Surely that is the point of a democracy.

sollar

KeithAFC wrote: »

I don't think i should disrespect the people who hold their faith 1st and their politics 2nd. When i say PUL, it is exactly that. People with a strong conviction for their faith and it means everyhing to them and then the politics. This is why it is called PUL. The UL at the end should make you realise what group of people i am talking about.

But you said a few weeks back you don't care too much for Jesus. What is your faith in?

KeithAFC

steddyeddy wrote: »

My point is I agree with you keith! The other point I will say about both sides is that there was para military members on both sides in government but they were voted in by the people on both sides. Surely that is the point of a democracy.

Of course it is but you can’t have people like Gerry Adams calling for this and that when he can’t even admit his own part in the conflict. Talking about an Orange Order member who thought the Shankill Butchers were a “good bunch of lads” is completely irrelevant to this thread because the same could be said on a lot of Irish Republicans who think Gerry Adams is a “great man” or that the guy who planted the bomb on the Shankill Road turned into a bit of a legend figure in the Republican movement.

KeithAFC

sollar wrote: »

But you said a few weeks back you don't care too much for Jesus. What is your faith in?

Its not me i am talking about (specifically). It is about people in that community who follow that faith and the political convictions they have.

steddyeddy

KeithAFC wrote: »

Of course it is but you can’t have people like Gerry Adams calling for this and that when he can’t even admit his own part in the conflict. Talking about an Orange Order member who thought the Shankill Butchers were a “good bunch of lads” is completely irrelevant to this thread because the same could be said on a lot of Irish Republicans who think Gerry Adams is a “great man” or that the guy who planted the bomb on the Shankill Road turned into a bit of a legend figure in the Republican movement.

Again I agree that Gerry Adams needs to come forward and admit his past I dont see what could happen most people know he was anyway. The shankill butchers though didnt kill because of politics though they killed because of religion.

Sunnyisland

I think keith has made a few valid points here.

KeithAFC

steddyeddy wrote: »

Again I agree that Gerry Adams needs to come forward and admit his past I dont see what could happen most people know he was anyway. The shankill butchers though didnt kill because of politics though they killed because of religion.

Everyone is aware of that. I don't know what you want to happen on that front.

steddyeddy

KeithAFC wrote: »

Everyone is aware of that. I don't know what you want to happen on that front.

First of all as realies said you have made good points on this thread and its great to have something we can all agree on!

Sunnyisland

The South African model, where killers and torturers were given amnesty in return for a full account of their crimes and victims, and their families got to tell their stories, was constructed specifically to deal with this country's experience.

Why cant that happen here ?

OhNoYouDidn't

KeithAFC wrote: »

But what is the point you are trying to make Steddyeddy?

What about Gerry Adams helping carry the coffin of the guy who planted the bomb on the Shankill Road which slaughtered people. Is that any different? Not at all. He obviously supported his actions and thought what he did was right. He is now in government in the Irish Republic and got voted in.

It just goes in circles and will never end. This is why a truth and reconciliation process will never work on this island.

My point was in an ideal world we would all LOVE to know exactly what happened on all sides but then again, a lot of people would not be willing to tell the truth and many of them would be working in governments on this island. So it isn’t going to happen is it.

No he isn't

Keith, kudos. Hats off. It takes great skill to start a row in a thread everyone agrees with you in

steddyeddy

realies wrote: »

The South African model, where killers and torturers were given amnesty in return for a full account of their crimes and victims, and their families got to tell their stories, was constructed specifically to deal with this country's experience.

Why cant that happen here ?

I think it would be a good idea as there arent going to be any prosecutions at this stage anyway. The only thing that boths sides would have to be careful of is reprisals.

sollar

realies wrote: »

I think keith has made a few valid points here.

Whats that old saying... 'even a stopped clock is right twice a day'

FTA69

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

- a South African style Truth and Reconciliation Commission where Republican's, Loyalists and both States honestly and without legal consequence admit to what they did and all of what they did.

That's probably what the Irish people deserve, but whether it will materialise is an entirely different story. I sincerely doubt the British government is going to sponsor a commission which is further going to expose their actions during the recent conflict here. They've already gone through pains to cover up any investigations into state collusion with Loyalist terrorists, I can't see them getting involved in something that will expose that further. Similarly, I doubt they'll be too eager to have former British soldiers and members of the UDR detail how they took part in sectarian killings, shot children purposely with plastic bullets and tortured people in custody etc. Thousands upon thousands of British soldiers have served in this country, at least a few of them are going to come out with something pretty damning.

On the other side you now have a Republican Movement which is fully involved in electoral politics and is bending over backwards to portray themselves as a good clean, centrist, pro-business party of business. If the activities of some of their leaders during the war were made more public than "I was a member of Óglaigh na hÉireann and then left in 1980" or whatever then that'd be pretty damning as well. The last thing they need out in the political domain is gory details about how Martin McGuinness organised the killing of informers or whatever. Of course they'll call for one, and continue to do so. But I believe that's posturing and that they sincerely don't want the full extent of activities by certain SF members to be raked over and scrutinised publically.

KeithAFC

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

No he isn't

Keith, kudos. Hats off. It takes great skill to start a row in a thread everyone agrees with you in

He isn't in the Dail?

Sunnyisland

OhNoYouDidnt wrote: »

No he isn't

Keith, kudos. Hats off. It takes great skill to start a row in a thread everyone agrees with you in

:) Keith doesn't take compliments to well Don't be so insecure there is know hidden agenda in this thread.

FTA69

KeithAFC wrote: »

He isn't in the Dail?

The Dáil is simply a parliament. The Milibands are in Westminister, it doesn't mean they're part of a government.

OhNoYouDidn't

KeithAFC wrote: »

He isn't in the Dail?

Yes. In opposition. Which is, well, the opposite of Government. Hint is in the word Keith.

You are trying to say that Adams would have the same to fear from the Brits if exposed as they are both governments. Daft, wrong, and a totally unnecessary reach. We ALL want Adams to admit is involvement.

KeithAFC

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Yes. In opposition. Which is, well, the opposite of Government. Hint is in the word Keith.

You are trying to say that Adams would have the same to fear from the Brits if exposed as they are both governments. Daft, wrong, and a totally unnecessary reach. We ALL want Adams to admit is involvement.

Ok, well he is still involved in the politics of that country now and got voted in from the Louth constituency. I don't think the peope of Louth would like for him to admit what he has done.



What i am trying to say is he would not come out and admit his past as it would effect his reputation in some quarters and could cost him in future elections.

karma_

KeithAFC wrote: »

Ok, well he is still involved in the politics of that country now and got voted in from the Louth constituency. I don't think the peope of Louth would like for him to admit what he has done.

What difference does that make, sure wasn't he voted into the British Parliament as well?

OhNoYouDidn't

KeithAFC wrote: »

Ok, well he is still involved in the politics of that country now and got voted in from the Louth constituency. I don't think the peope of Louth would like for him to admit what he has done.



What i am trying to say is he would not come out and admit his past as it would effect his reputation in some quarters and could cost him in future elections.

Of course. So why the half arse attempts to make an equivalence between the Irish and British governments when it comes to the war?

He was in Westminister too, was he in the British government?

KeithAFC

karma_ wrote: »

What difference does that make, sure wasn't he voted into the British Parliament as well?

It would make a difference because publicly knowing (and you would imagine this process would be very public) and privately knowing is two different things. People who vote for him in probably would not want him to admit what he has done in the past to the world as it might reflect bad on them. So they would probably stop voting for him.