No new schemes from 2012 until 2014 - NRA

spacetweek

According to the NRA's press release, no new schemes will begin from 2012 to 2014. No way do I believe that. They'll be lobbied up to their eyeballs by the construction industry and the job creation benefits will end up winning out.

Wild Bill

spacetweek wrote: »

According to the NRA's press release, no new schemes will begin from 2012 to 2014. No way do I believe that. They'll be lobbied up to their eyeballs by the construction industry and the job creation benefits will end up winning out.

I sincerely hope so.

Odd, they don't mention the N11/Newlands where contracts appear to have been awarded already. And calling the northern relief road at Longford a "major road project" is stretching the definition of "major" a wee bit.

spacetweek

Wild Bill wrote:

And calling the northern relief road at Longford a "major road project" is stretching the definition of "major" a wee bit.

Haha, yea, I chuckled at that. Also Belturbet.

munchkin_utd

spacetweek wrote: »

Haha, yea, I chuckled at that. Also Belturbet.

The total cost of the N3 Belturbet by pass is 40 million approx, including about 9 million of land cost.

indeed, marginally more than an uneducated Irish labourer earned per month at the height of the boom , but still a damn sizeable project on a National Primary Route.

serfboard

spacetweek wrote: »

According to the NRA's press release, no new schemes will begin from 2012 to 2014. No way do I believe that. They'll be lobbied up to their eyeballs by the construction industry and the job creation benefits will end up winning out.

A few thoughts on this.

1. The CIF don't "own" FG/Lab in the same way that they owned Fianna Fail. So I wouldn't expect Leo to listen to them in the same way his predecessors did.

2. Since we're not a sovereign country, we have to ask, pretty please, how we can spend our pocket money. And although properly planned capital spending does bring long-term benefits, the emphasis is on proper planning. Cutting capital spending as they have and will do, means less of a nettle to be grasped on the current side - particularly wrt publc sector pay, social welfare and taxation.

3. The statement by the NRA doesn't rule out another project or two being announced this year. However, I'm surprised that anything's being built at all, welcome and all as those bypass projects are.

Sponge Bob

The PR does not say that. It says

"no major new road projects"

Wild Bill

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The PR does not say that. It says

????????

spacetweek

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The PR does not say that. It says

Sponge, you're implying that since they only said that no *major* schemes will begin, that minor ones might.

However their inclusion of stuff like N52 and N5 shows that when they say major, they're including stuff that we would consider minor. So therefore minor schemes are off too.

At least that's my take.

As for the construction industry not "owning" FG-LAB, true, but they'll be lobbied nonetheless, and we need jobs that can't be outsourced. A slew of national secondary schemes would be ideal for the next couple of years.

L1011

We could easily end up with lots of small council funded schemes, that happen to abut each other, in succession on certain routes. I'm nearly convinced something similar to this is going on along the N2 out of Monaghan where there's been a veeerryyy sloooow extension of the length of a realignment since it started at Christmas. Its now the length of something I could see the NRA announcing...

spacetweek

MYOB wrote: »

We could easily end up with lots of small council funded schemes, that happen to abut each other, in succession on certain routes. I'm nearly convinced something similar to this is going on along the N2 out of Monaghan where there's been a veeerryyy sloooow extension of the length of a realignment since it started at Christmas. Its now the length of something I could see the NRA announcing...

Are they doing that along the route of the existing N2? Are the council not aware that N2 Castleblayney-Border scheme is going to replace the whole N2 in the Monaghan town area? So there's no point except to improve conditions for local traffic.

L1011

spacetweek wrote: »

Are they doing that along the route of the existing N2? Are the council not aware that N2 Castleblayney-Border scheme is going to replace the whole N2 in the Monaghan town area? So there's no point except to improve conditions for local traffic.

yes. Arguably its not up to local traffic as it stands. Its just bend smoothing, in theory its partially offline. Been underway since December!

munchkin_utd

spacetweek wrote: »

Are they doing that along the route of the existing N2? Are the council not aware that N2 Castleblayney-Border scheme is going to replace the whole N2 in the Monaghan town area? So there's no point except to improve conditions for local traffic.

Madness might yet be avoided.

As part of the Project Consultants commission, a review of the Monaghan to Emyvale Realignment Scheme has been undertaken. As a result the current Red Corridor Option contains elements of the Monaghan to Emyvale Realignment Scheme.

Sections of the existing N2 are also included in the current appraisal process.

Nevertheless, by-passing the bypass is still the aim.

And this for a road with MAX 220 cars an hour in a direction (Claregalway village is 1000+ an hour per direction and NOT by-passed yet)
Thats 3.6 cars a minute, or one every 17 seconds. Not a chronic problem really that needs an offline dual carraigeway or 2+2.

Which begs the question,
is it really that bad that the handbrake has been pulled on some of the more aspirational county council led (/pushed) schemes?
The N3 Kells Bypass all the way to the Fermanagh Border being another example.
The N4 50km Mullingar-Dromod being another example, possibly the absolute most mad cap of them all. A new offline road to replace a road that currently isnt under any major pressure or congestion
The N5 expansion plans also were massive for such a relatively quiet road - and a road that'll be rendered semi obscelete once the M17 is there to within a few km of the Mayo border.

Standing back and evaluating logically what is needed rather than blindy building by (single digit) route number mightn't be a bad thing.

veryangryman

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Nevertheless, by-passing the bypass is still the aim.

And this for a road with MAX 220 cars an hour in a direction (Claregalway village is 1000+ an hour per direction and NOT by-passed yet)
Thats 3.6 cars a minute, or one every 17 seconds. Not a chronic problem really that needs an offline dual carraigeway or 2+2.

Ive driven through Monaghan twice - both times the place was MENTAL traffic-wise (inside and outside rush hour). Easily took half hour to get from N54 through town to N2.

munchkin_utd wrote: »

The N3 Kells Bypass all the way to the Fermanagh Border being another example.

Cavans bypassed with WS2 which seems ok. Virginia does need bypassing though

munchkin_utd wrote: »

The N4 50km Mullingar-Dromod being another example, possibly the absolute most mad cap of them all. A new offline road to replace a road that currently isnt under any major pressure or congestion

Again Dualling as far as Longford is really all thats needed. I didnt hear anything about offline roads - assumed this was on the existing route (hence not Motorway)

munchkin_utd wrote: »

The N5 expansion plans also were massive for such a relatively quiet road - and a road that'll be rendered semi obscelete once the M17 is there to within a few km of the Mayo border.

I would agree if this was a solid plan. Problem though...the M17 is not going to be built in the next 20 years, certainly nowhere near the Mayo border. Its going to be a struggle to get M18 as far as Oranmore at this stage. So there is big need for N5 to get some sort of upgrade, especially Ballaghadreen. Joke of a town to drive through

munchkin_utd

veryangryman wrote: »

Ive driven through Monaghan twice - both times the place was MENTAL traffic-wise (inside and outside rush hour). Easily took half hour to get from N54 through town to N2.

http://www.monaghan.ie/websitev2/download/pdf/roads/2011/RouteCorridorPublicConsultFeb11.pdf
is the route corridor selection for the N2.

All going to the east of town, none helping anyone coming from the N54 Clones (/Cavan/Athlone/Galway) Direction on their way to the N2 or onwards Toward the A3 Armagh/ Belfast. They'll still end up going through town
(BTW: now if you go via the cathedral+by-pass you should miss the worst of the traffic, as opposed to going the "old" way via the diamond)


The N4 plans are hard to nail down on one sheet, but heres the plan of by-passing the edgeworthstown by pass section in detail
http://www.longfordcoco.ie/uploadedFiles/LongfordCoCo/Our_Departments/Roads/Documents/N4_Mullingar_to_Longford(Roosky)/Sheet7.pdf
and here the section bypassing the longford by pass
http://www.longfordcoco.ie/uploadedFiles/LongfordCoCo/Our_Departments/Roads/Documents/N4_Mullingar_to_Longford(Roosky)/Sheet4.pdf
the full list of 12 or so maps is here http://www.longfordcoco.ie/coco_content.aspx?id=21254 and and theres barely 2 or 3 km online of the 50 km scheme , and that the last few km each end of the schemes. Everything else is offline from the current broad road and bypasses.

Its breathtakingly mindblowingly stunningly ambitious considering it is linking the least and second least populated counties in Ireland - and beyond is Sligo as the end destination also a county in the bottom 10 populated places in the country. AND it was to be replacing a road that can easily offer the service performance of a constant near 100kmh aside from a few inconsequential tiny hamlets along the way.
AND this corridor also has the existing option of fantastic public transport links to Dublin with brand new trains running with departures every 2 hours from 5 in the morning till 7 in the evening.

Having a good train service is no reason to completely de-prioritise road rebuilds in an area but having a pretty decent existing road with bypasses is.

L1011

The Mullingar-Roosky plan grew out from being a Mullingar-Longford plan, a case of "sure why would we have a 15km gap in the dual carriageway".

I'd take the Carrick bypass and the Castlebaldwin scheme (there's barely anything there to call it a bypass, but the road is lethal) over anything else on the N4.

Wild Bill

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Having a good train service is no reason to completely de-prioritise road rebuilds in an area but having a pretty decent existing road with bypasses is.

Can't agree. In future it's China and the other BRICs we have to compete with, not the sclerotic Western nations.

The motorways we have built in recent years are perfectly safe for travelling at 160kph in any modern car or van. We should increase the speed limit 160 (maybe 180) on all suitable stretches (90% plus, in my experience).

Then the Sligo-Dublin journey is an hour by car; maybe two hours by truck. You certainly won't get that forcing trucks through Rathowen and Ballinalack!

I'm also thinking that as there will be a major debt default by soverigns across the Western world; now is maybe the very best time to fast forward the infrastructure building.

Clearly, globally, debts are going to be repudiated on a vast scale and standards of living will drop; with good infrastructure in place we will be first out of the traps when the recovery begins.

As usual when it comes to infrastructure we leave it way too late; quibble too much, and think too small. :cool:

weehamster

Wild Bill wrote: »

I'm also thinking that as there will be a major debt default by soverigns across the Western world; now is maybe the very best time to fast forward the infrastructure building.

You know, I think you may be right here.;)
The US is up ****s creak with it's deficit expected to hit around $24 Trillion (even after the recent so called measures) and since every country in the world owes each other money, global default could be possible.:rolleyes:

FGR

I knew the N25 Carrigtwohill to Youghal scheme was Pie in the Sky but that 21km stretch would have saved me a serious amount of time on my drive to Cork.

Will Killeagh and Castlemartyr ever be bypassed?

corktina

well if you turn right (westbound) just after passing the centra in Killeagh and follow your nose, you can bypass castlematyr now.Works even better coming the other way as you dont have to cross the N25.A bit narrow, but handy at busy times.

FGR

I used to use that short cut up until I ended up losing a wing mirror/paint as a result of two large transits trying to squeeze past me on the narrow stretch back onto the N25.

Annoying as hell that these lads weren't willing to even slow down a bit !

spacetweek

munchkin_utd wrote: »

The N3 Kells Bypass all the way to the Fermanagh Border being another example.
The N4 50km Mullingar-Dromod being another example, possibly the absolute most mad cap of them all. A new offline road to replace a road that currently isnt under any major pressure or congestion
The N5 expansion plans also were massive for such a relatively quiet road - and a road that'll be rendered semi obscelete once the M17 is there to within a few km of the Mayo border.

Your examples there are all valid in fairness. The N3 needs a Virginia bypass and we're done - no further improvements needed. The N4 Mullingar-Longford scheme is really a Tiger idea where the goal is to facilitate ever increasing traffic volumes that have probably dissipated now. That said I do think that long term policy should be to dual the rest of the N4 to Sligo over 20 years. And the N5 needs the CoS-Frenchpark deviation and a downgrade, not a huge new rebuild.

Additionally the case for the dualling of all of the N25 from Cork to Wicklow (under the Atlantic Corridor plan) is overblown and some sections may never be dualled. I'd slow that one down if it was me and phase it over the next 20 years.
There may be more examples.

However! These are isolated examples and in fairness most of the suspended schemes are going to cause soreness - some such as Dunkettle truly are unacceptable and I'm gonna stick to my guns here - we'll probably see a slight rollback. Once 2013 comes around and tumbleweed blows across the NRA's carpark, there'll be a review of the policy of deep cutting of infrastructure building. The desire to create jobs, construction industry lobbying and farmers crying over land with compulsory purchase orders hanging over it will see to that.

spacetweek

munchkin_utd wrote: »

the full list of 12 or so maps is here http://www.longfordcoco.ie/coco_content.aspx?id=21254 and and theres barely 2 or 3 km online of the 50 km scheme , and that the last few km each end of the schemes. Everything else is offline from the current broad road and bypasses.

Thanks a lot for those maps, very interesting. What they're planning is nothing short of a full motorway. Any time the route subsumes the existing road, I noted that a parallel LAR (local access route) is planned to run alongside. They will maintain full grade separation on this and preservation of an alternate route - so long as shoulders are wide enough the project is likely to end up M4. Grossly overspecced really. I doubt we'll need it until 2020 if that. (The rest of the N4 is a different story).

Sponge Bob

The M4 could be extended to the N55 perhaps but should be N4 2+2 West of Edgeworthstown.

Westip made the original proposal about the shorter N5, I thoroughly agree.

L1011

There's many other bits and pieces needed to make the N4 DC to the start of the M-L scheme get up to motorway standard, and I don't just mean the gap sealing / bridge that's intended to start this year.

Wild Bill

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The M4 could be extended to the N55 perhaps but should be N4 2+2 West of Edgeworthstown.

Westip made the original proposal about the shorter N5, I thoroughly agree.

I like it!

It would certainly justify a 2+2 between Mullingar and Carrick-O-S; though I'd still go for a motorway as far as Longford.

corktina

ForegoneReality wrote: »

I used to use that short cut up until I ended up losing a wing mirror/paint as a result of two large transits trying to squeeze past me on the narrow stretch back onto the N25.

Annoying as hell that these lads weren't willing to even slow down a bit !

probably me:cool:

L1011

Wild Bill wrote: »

I like it!

It would certainly justify a 2+2 between Mullingar and Carrick-O-S; though I'd still go for a motorway as far as Longford.

The NRA want 2+2 from Roosky to Castlebaldwin and motorway-grade from there until about 8KM north of Sligo (and then 2+2 from there to the Leitrim border) on the N15. Not doing anything by halves here!

spacetweek

MYOB wrote: »

The NRA want 2+2 from Roosky to Castlebaldwin and motorway-grade from there until about 8KM north of Sligo (and then 2+2 from there to the Leitrim border) on the N15. Not doing anything by halves here!

Are you sure the Sligo Western Bypass is planned to be motorway(-grade)? Never heard that before. Sligo is only 20k people!

Wild Bill

spacetweek wrote: »

Are you sure the Sligo Western Bypass is planned to be motorway(-grade)? Never heard that before. Sligo is only 20k people!

What do you mean "only" 20k?

If every working person in Sligo was prepared to pay €10,000 they could easily afford the motorway.

Though paying the same per head, Dublin would generate about €10 billion which could build MN, DU, Luas BX and the orbital motorway from the M1 near Balbriggan to the M7 at Newbridge - with change left over for the Eastern bypass.

But we can't afford even one of these it seems!

:cool:

L1011

spacetweek wrote: »

Are you sure the Sligo Western Bypass is planned to be motorway(-grade)? Never heard that before. Sligo is only 20k people!

Its intended to be T1, as is the first few KM of the "N15 Sligo to County Border" project. Seeing as its T1 from Colooney to the current throughpass they clearly intend to keep the standard up. Can't see an isolated island of M4/M15 happening though.

Colooney to Castlebaldwin appears to have been 'downgraded' to 2+2 mind so I was wrong on that front.

I can't see the Western Bypass going ahead for decades, seeing as they're currently planning on widening the road north of the bridge to outside the town boundary: http://www.nra.ie/RoadSchemeActivity/SligoCountyCouncil/N4N15SligoUrbanRoadImprovement/SchemeName,17941,en.html

ardmacha

Never heard that before. Sligo is only 20k people!

The population of Sligo is not the main issue. Dunleer and Monastrevin have been bypassed by motorway for many years, although these are smaller than Sligo.

veryangryman

ardmacha wrote: »

The population of Sligo is not the main issue. Dunleer and Monastrevin have been bypassed by motorway for many years, although these are smaller than Sligo.

You really think thats a good comparion? *Cough* Belfast *Cough* Cork and Limerick

:rolleyes:

spacetweek

veryangryman wrote: »

You really think thats a good comparion? *Cough* Belfast *Cough* Cork and Limerick

:rolleyes:

Exactly, all Sligo has is Donegal and Sligo already has a DC bypass. Can't foresee a need for a second bypass for a decade.

Sponge Bob

The road north of Sligo is utterly crap, congested and substandard but if they do widen that bridge in town any future works need but be 2+2 Sligo to past Grange and S1 north of that as is required in places ...no T1 is required around and north of Sligo.

FGR

Just from curiosity - and apologies for reviving an old thread!

Were there ever any route selections for the Midleton - Youghal N25 upgrades?

Would have loved to have seen what direction they were going in order to bypass Killeagh and Castlemartyr!

Wild Bill

spacetweek wrote: »

Exactly, all Sligo has is Donegal and Sligo already has a DC bypass. Can't foresee a need for a second bypass for a decade.

Sligo does not have a DC bypass! (Unless they built it since Christmas )

L1011

Wild Bill wrote: »

Sligo does not have a DC bypass! (Unless they built it since Christmas )

DC throughpass, then.

It serves its purpose quite well enough to live with for the moment. Ideally you don't want a roundabout and 8 sets of lights on a relatively busy bit of a low numbered primary.

Wild Bill

MYOB wrote: »

DC throughpass, then.

Does the DC not stop at Duck St (N16), 200m north of the river

Even with all the lights it's hardly a DC bypass - and only a partial throughpass

spacetweek

Looking forward to schemes starting next year.

This whole "no new roads" thing is a classic case of talking down.

Wild Bill

Which ones are going to start in 2013?

L1011

Wild Bill wrote: »

Which ones are going to start in 2013?

At this rate, the M11/N7 PPP...

antoobrien

Wild Bill wrote: »

Which ones are going to start in 2013?

Hopefully M17/18

spacetweek

antoobrien wrote: »

Hopefully M17/18

Yes but I reckon 1 or maybe 2 minor ones (e.g. N25 Cork-Midleton) might get through where the primary reason for building it is safety rather than traffic. These ones are always easy to justify because high crash rates are emotive. Varadkar keeps talking down road funding and then he spends money on roads.

Wild Bill

MYOB wrote: »

At this rate, the M11/N7 PPP...

Ah yes! The road they announce every year

FGR

Wild Bill wrote: »

Ah yes! The road they announce every year

I take it that Varadkar's most senior civil servant enters the room in a lab coat with glasses shouting 'Good news everyone!' before announcing this annual news.

Sponge Bob

spacetweek wrote: »

Yes but I reckon 1 or maybe 2 minor ones (e.g. N25 Cork-Midleton)

Wild Bill wrote: »

Ah yes! The road they announce every year

Think the N25 Cork-Midleton was announced by Dempsey around 3 times and possibly even by Cullen.

FGR

At least they've resurfaced the bleedin thing. I can live with the direct access at the mo in exchange for a castlemartyr/killeagh bypass.

Wild Bill

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Think the N25 Cork-Midleton was announced by Dempsey around 3 times and possibly even by Cullen.

Maybe someone should start a Varadaker announce-count? I'm sure he's announced the N11/Newlands at least three times in less than a year.

He's going for the record - draining the Shannon will be only trottin' after him.

spacetweek

Probably being discussed on Economics forums but this good news is relevant to us as road building will be reliant for the next few years on PPP borrowing.

Watch the rate here.

tomflynn

We know the schemes currently under construction and major PPP schemes commencing over the next few years http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80341879&postcount=218 but which smaller-scale projects might complement the larger PPP schemes and proceed in 2013-2015?

Including the strategically important schemes, or small-scale (max c. 10km) currently in planning or through planning process (in some cases land now being purchased), the following are the National Road related schemes that seem most likely to commence in the next few years:

N3/M3 Mulhuddard Interchange Upgrade
M7 Nass Newbridge Bypass Upgrade (3 lanes to M7/M9) 13km
M8/N25 Dunkettle Interchange Improvement Scheme
N14/N15 to A5 Link 0.5km
N21 Adare Bypass (with An BP since 2010 awaiting determination) 8.5km
N52 Ardee Bypass 4.5km
N56 Mountcharles-Inver 4.9km
Motorway Service Areas Tranche 2: M6 (Athlone East) and M9 (Kilcullen South)

Chris_5339762

Adare bypass is off the table as it was joined with the M20. It sprouted off a junction to be built for the M20. Would require a redesign to build on its own.