Breaking: US Senate Defeats Debt Plan

JONJO THE MISER

Just in:
http://www.foxnews.com/

This is getting very very close to the point of no return, a deal has to be reached by Tuesday or else the U.S defaults.

unknownlegend

Miniature American flags for some,
Mountain of unrepayable debt for all!

Rabies

It will get cleared. Won't be allowed to not happen.

I presume Obama has the power to push it through regardless.

JONJO THE MISER

Rabies wrote: »

It will get cleared. Won't be allowed to not happen.

I presume Obama has the power to push it through regardless.

Yes i thought the same but im not so sure now, if he pushes it through anyway he may as well be a dictator because the senate will just be a lame duck.

Liam Byrne

I thought for a second that our Seanad had for once earned its keep and killed of the despicable NAMA plans.

Can we change the title to say "U.S. Senate....." ?

raveni

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I thought for a second that our Seanad had for once earned its keep and killed of the despicable NAMA plans.

Can we change the title to say "U.S. Senate....." ?

With the words Senate and debt in the same sentence this week, you know it's the US one, but yeah no harm in being specific.

maxwell smart

Rabies wrote: »

I presume Obama has the power to push it through regardless.

Obama can't push a Debt Plan through without support from both houses. That is what they call democracy over there.

Very different from what we have!

Killer Pigeon

I hope the US defaults and looses its credit rating.

Americans go about thinking that they're the "best in the world".

They need to eat some humble pie.

And I don't care about the consequences for the rest of the world, as long as these pompous numbskulls are defeated I couldn't care less.

Biggins

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

...And I don't care about the consequences for the rest of the world, as long as these pompous numbskulls are defeated I couldn't care less.

Thats called "cutting off your nose, to spite your face"
...And we might all end up paying a price as the domino effect rolls toward Europe!

_sparkie_

ah ****e

aligator_am

Rabies wrote: »

It will get cleared. Won't be allowed to not happen.

I presume Obama has the power to push it through regardless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMIn0Lzcz1M

My name is URL

Interesting times ahead.. better stock up on pop-corn.

El Siglo

For those on mobiles:

Washington – Democrats' debt-ceiling bill failed to clear a key Senate hurdle Sunday afternoon, putting the onus on bipartisan negotiators to come up with an alternative plan with just two days to go until the Treasury runs out of ways to pay all of America's bills.

The vote on Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid's plan was expected to fail. Sixty votes were required to advance the proposal, and it fell far short in a 50-49 roll call.

The focus now turns almost exclusively to the latest round of talks being conducted among White House officials and Senate leaders. After disagreeing about the status of those negotiations the day before, Senate leaders indicated Sunday that they were making good progress on the new proposal.

"We're hopeful and confident it can be done," Reid said on the Senate floor regarding a possible compromise, moments after his bill failed.

Sens. Dick Durbin, D-Ill., and Jon Kyl, R-Ariz., the No. 2 senators in their respective parties, also said on "Fox News Sunday" that they were feeling better about the discussions.

"I have a much more positive feeling than I did 24 hours ago," Durbin said.

Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell said negotiators are "very close" to an agreement that he could recommend to fellow Republicans. Speaking on CBS' "Face the Nation," McConnell said the agreement is "within our reach."

Though White House senior adviser David Plouffe cautioned there's no deal yet, Senate leaders are in dire need of a compromise.

Reid won over just one Republican supporter, Massachusetts Sen. Scott Brown, for his bill Sunday afternoon. On the Democratic side, he lost Nebraska Sen. Ben Nelson, West Virginia Sen. Joe Manchin, and Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders, an independent aligned with Democrats.

Lawmakers have until Aug. 2 to raise the $14.3 trillion debt ceiling or risk the possibility of default. The Obama administration says that after Tuesday, the Treasury can no longer pay all of America's bills.

"There's no question we're approaching the final hour," Gene Sperling, director of the National Economic Council, told "Fox News Sunday."

Sources said the tentative arrangement between the White House and Republicans closely resembles the plan first proffered by House Speaker John Boehner before he modified it to appease Tea Party conservatives.

Sources said the debt ceiling would be raised by as much as $2.4 trillion, with a roughly equal amount of deficit-reduction. Though sources said the debt-ceiling increase would be split into two parts, Congress would have to meet a very high threshold to stop it -- likely assuring President Obama an increase that lasts until early 2013, as he requested.

The plan would immediately cut spending by about $900 billion over the next decade, and then task a commission to recommend another set of cuts that would, taken together, add up to the size of the debt-ceiling increase.
Importantly, a "trigger" in the proposal would automatically enact across-the-board cuts to Medicare, defense and other areas if the committee's recommendations are not approved by the end of the year.

One source familiar with the talks noted that while the Medicare cuts would be capped, defense cuts would not and would make up roughly half of the total cuts. This mechanism could help compel Republicans avoid the "trigger" entirely by working through the commission to achieve deficit reduction.
But the framework of the deal floated perilously between the alternatives pushed by House conservatives and Senate Democrats.

The tentative plan would have Congress vote on a balanced-budget amendment -- a key demand of Tea Party-aligned Republicans -- but would not require Congress to approve it in order for the debt ceiling to be raised.

Top aides to House GOP lawmakers told Fox News they were concerned about the emerging deal. One source said it could be difficult to bring House conservatives back on board with such a plan.

At the same time, the tentative arrangement is closer to Boehner's original bill than Reid's. Reid, while giving GOP lawmakers more time to negotiate, initially indicated Saturday evening he was not satisfied with the progress so far. After Republican leaders claimed they were close to a deal, Reid shot that claim down.

When he emerged on the floor late at night to announce the new vote schedule, he sounded a bit more upbeat. Reid said he hopes the new round of talks "bears fruit."

The partisan makeup of Congress makes the task of striking a deal that much more complicated.

Neither party controls a supermajority in the Senate, making it necessary to attract bipartisan support in order to pass a bill.

Republicans hold a broad majority in the House, but conservatives may be skeptical of any deal that has too many Democratic fingerprints on it from the Senate side.

House Republican Whip Kevin McCarthy, R-Calif., told "Fox News Sunday," that the talks were moving in the "right direction" but that House Republicans would "have to look at the details."

One source suggested that Boehner could change course and corral a coalition of Republicans along with a larger batch of Democrats -- though that would put the speaker in a difficult position within his own caucus.

Fox News' Mike Emanuel, Chad Pergram, Trish Turner and Ed Henry contributed to this report.

Agricola

My name is URL wrote: »

Interesting times ahead.. better stock up on pop-corn.

Not to mention guns n' ammo. When the looting follows the riots, Ill be ready!

aligator_am

I think the real problem is that even if a deal is struck (which I think will happen) and the debt limit is raised by a couple of trillion, all they're doing is pushing the problem forward, not solving it.

Seems that from 2000 to 2008 U.S. national debt went from $5trillion to $10trillion, and since early 2009 to now it's gone from there up to $14.3trillion. [source: http://washingtonexaminer.com/politics/2009/02/obamas-trillions-dwarf-bushs-dangerous-spending]

If it keeps going at that rate then I can't really see what good it will do to increase the debt celing without introducing massive spending cuts.

Logical Fallacy

aligator_am wrote: »

If it keeps going at that rate then I can't really see what good it will do to increase the debt celing without introducing massive spending cuts.

That is why the sensible people on both sides are saying a combination of a ceiling raise, spending cuts and increased taxes are the way to go.

At this point i genuinely get the impression that the Tea Party politicians are proper psycho, it's a very dangerous game they are playing.

mgmt

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

At this point i genuinely get the impression that the Tea Party politicians are proper psycho, it's a very dangerous game they are playing.

Driving up a 14trillion debt is psychotic. Cutting spending and limiting the size of the federal government is the most sensible thing the US can do.

aligator_am

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

That is why the sensible people on both sides are saying a combination of a ceiling raise, spending cuts and increased taxes are the way to go.

At this point i genuinely get the impression that the Tea Party politicians are proper psycho, it's a very dangerous game they are playing.

Yes, but from what I've heard, the cuts involved aren't from the existing amount but rather from the increases proposed, so it's a face saving exercise.

Killer Pigeon

Biggins wrote: »

Thats called "cutting off your nose, to spite your face"
...And we might all end up paying a price as the domino effect rolls toward Europe!

If I was the collective European economy I'd well cut off my nose to see the USA downgraded from its superpower status.

The Marlboro Man

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Just in:
http://www.foxnews.com/

This is getting very very close to the point of no return, a deal has to be reached by Tuesday or else the U.S defaults.

Nothing would make you happier judging by your posting history.

Like, do you honestly believe they're going to leave it happen? It would result in a catastrophe. I think not..

Sticky_Fingers

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

If I was the collective European economy I'd well cut off my nose to see the USA downgraded from its superpower status.

The EU is in no position to tackle even a modest rumbling in the world economy at the moment let alone the possible earthquake caused by a US default. The Euro and ECB are stumbling around after getting their arse handed to them during the Greek crisis and are praying for some stability in the world to let them get their act together, the insanity happening in the US could very well be the final nail in the coffin for many struggling Euro countries resulting in a full blown sovereign debt crisis right here in the old country.

No one, absolutely no one wants a US default, the consequences for the world economy and pretty much every single nation on the planet could be disastrous.

iPlop

If the federal reserve is not a privately owned bank, why is America defaulting?

CommuterIE

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

I hope the US defaults and looses its credit rating.

Americans go about thinking that they're the "best in the world".

They need to eat some humble pie.

And I don't care about the consequences for the rest of the world, as long as these pompous numbskulls are defeated I couldn't care less.

Well to be fair, they are not "a" world leader but "the" world leader, and have been so since at least World War 2... so its probably not surprising that some of them would consider themselves "the best in the world". In America, if you are successful it can be the best place in the world, no doubt about it....

Also, the nonsense of people saying "America is going broke" is wrong, this impasse is purely political

I would also add that a load of "numbskulls" didn't build America up to be the only superpower for at least a decade. Have a look at your own country first for "numbskulls" tbh

Killer Pigeon

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

The EU is in no position to tackle even a modest rumbling in the world economy at the moment let alone the possible earthquake caused by a US default. The Euro and ECB are stumbling around after getting their arse handed to them during the Greek crisis and are praying for some stability in the world to let them get their act together, the insanity happening in the US could very well be the final nail in the coffin for many struggling Euro countries resulting in a full blown sovereign debt crisis right here in the old country.

No one, absolutely no one wants a US default, the consequences for the world economy and pretty much every single nation on the planet could be disastrous.

We need a third world war. I'm not trolling or anything, it's just that it's the only legal way to reduce the global population, which, let's face it, is growing out of proportion. A US default could well help spur on a third world war.

mgmt

Sink The Banana wrote: »

If the federal reserve is not a privately owned bank, why is America defaulting?

If the debt ceiling is not raised, then Obama will not be able to pay out the interest on government borrrowing, military salaries, health care costs etc.

The federal reserve is a private bank AFAIK.

The Marlboro Man

maxwell smart wrote: »

Obama can't push a Debt Plan through without support from both houses. That is what they call democracy over there.

Very different from what we have!

Yes he can..

President Obama - Could just call the 14th Amendment.....

Supporters of such a plan contend that the 14th Amendment to the Constitution gives the president authority to protect the full faith and credit of the United States Government.

If it comes down to it, Obama can simply raise the debt limit himself, unilaterally.

Obama doesn't need Congress to raise the debt limit at all.

It could present the best-case scenario for the president's political fortunes......

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/post/why-the-14th-amendment-is-not-a-good-option-for-obama/2011/07/29/gIQAynPOhI_blog.html

There is a case to be made - that a congressional stalemate - followed by a unilateral move by the White House to prevent default - could present the best-case scenario for the president's political fortunes.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/2chambers/post/the-white-house-and-the-14th-amendment-why-not/2011/07/29/gIQABQXtjI_blog.html

Killer Pigeon

CommuterIE wrote: »

Well to be fair, they are not "a" world leader but "the" world leader, and have been so since at least World War 2... so its probably not surprising that some of them would consider themselves "the best in the world". In America, if you are successful it can be the best place in the world, no doubt about it....

Also, the nonsense of people saying "America is going broke" is wrong, this impasse is purely political

I would also add that a load of "numbskulls" built America up to be the only superpower for at least a decade. Have a look at your own country first for "numbskulls" tbh

FFS, the only reason that the US is such a "superpower" is because of its military. The US has been in steady decline in ever other sphere since, perhaps, the end of the cold war.

Ally Dick

The Republicans are playing silly buggers. They're the Fianna Fail of America. Completely in denial about the damage they did the last time, and shameless too !

Sticky_Fingers

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

We need a third world war. I'm not trolling or anything, it's just that it's the only legal way to reduce the global population, which, let's face it, is growing out of proportion. A US default could well help spur on a third world war.

You can hold that view just as long as your the first to volunteer for front line duty. To call for a war and expect others to do the fighting and dying while you sit in safe old Ireland is completely reprehensible otherwise....

FGR

What is it with the Federal Government being so unwilling to increase taxes?

I'll admire their spirit to not reduce services/increase taxes on the people however at this time, of all times; wouldn't they be better off hiring in Brian Cowen and Bertie to tell them how to cut and tax all around?

iPlop

mgmt wrote: »

If the debt ceiling is not raised, then Obama will not be able to pay out the interest on government borrrowing, military salaries, health care costs etc.

The federal reserve is a private bank AFAIK.

Of course it is, and controlled by the Rockefeller and Rothschild dynasties.The CT community have claimed for years that these guys were pumping there money into Asia and dismantling America through welfare, taxes and other bullshít.

I think these guys maybe right, on some level.

Richard Hillman

The current debt is astronomical. It would take a left wing loon like Obama to think its ok to increase the debt. Hopefully the republicans win out on this because the higher the debt the bigger the timebomb it is.

My name is URL

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

We need a third world war. I'm not trolling or anything, it's just that it's the only legal way to reduce the global population, which, let's face it, is growing out of proportion. A US default could well help spur on a third world war.

World Wars are not that effective at reducing global populations, 60 million people die every year, and the deadliest war to date only claimed around 50 million lives. Drop in the ocean.

Killer Pigeon

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

You can hold that view just as long as your the first to volunteer for front line duty. To call for a war and expect others to do the fighting and dying while you sit in safe old Ireland is completely reprehensible otherwise....

Well it's not my fault I was born in little old neutral Ireland. I'll just sit at home and watch it all unfold on skynews. Besides, there are plenty of people in the world brainwashed by patriotism who'd be willing to take my place in some foreign volunteer force.

Mark200

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The current debt is astronomical. It would take a left wing loon like Obama to think its ok to increase the debt. Hopefully the republicans win out on this because the higher the debt the bigger the timebomb it is.

I believe it was a rightwing loon who reversed a surplus into insane deficits.

Killer Pigeon

My name is URL wrote: »

World Wars are not that effective at reducing global populations, 60 million people die every year, and the deadliest war to date only claimed around 50 million lives. Drop in the ocean.

I'll but my bets on the next one involving nuclear weapons which will significantly reduce the global population by a couple of billion or so.

54kroc

maxwell smart wrote: »

Obama can't push a Debt Plan through without support from both houses. That is what they call democracy over there.

Very different from what we have!

Yes he can.

Soulja boy

If America Defaults it will destabilise many of the worlds banks based on the loss of confidence it would cause alone.

I'd rather we only have the severe recession that the 2009 collapse gave us then a full on decade or more of a depression.

ilovesleep

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

The EU is in no position to tackle even a modest rumbling in the world economy at the moment let alone the possible earthquake caused by a US default. The Euro and ECB are stumbling around after getting their arse handed to them during the Greek crisis and are praying for some stability in the world to let them get their act together, the insanity happening in the US could very well be the final nail in the coffin for many struggling Euro countries resulting in a full blown sovereign debt crisis right here in the old country.

No one, absolutely no one wants a US default, the consequences for the world economy and pretty much every single nation on the planet could be disastrous.

I agree. If people think things are bad now, a US default will send countries the world all over into depressions.

But isn't a default inevitable for them? Its going happen eventually will it not?

Mark200

cork45 wrote: »

maxwell smart wrote: »

Obama can't push a Debt Plan through without support from both houses. That is what they call democracy over there.

Very different from what we have!

Yes he can.

How?

iPlop

Soulja boy wrote: »

If America Defaults it will destabilise many of the worlds banks based on the loss of confidence it would cause alone.

I'd rather we only have the severe recession that the 2009 collapse gave us then a full on decade or more of a depression.

Well if america and the EU fall, they can bring in a new currency to ease the situation.

A global currency that will save us all.

ilovesleep

ForegoneReality wrote: »

I'll admire their spirit to not reduce services/increase taxes on the people however at this time, of all times; wouldn't they be better off hiring in Brian Cowen and Bertie to tell them how to cut and tax all around?

Those two mickeys are the last thing the US needs. They will cut and chop and raise and gamble for their own benefits and friends.

Killer Pigeon

ilovesleep wrote: »

I agree. If people think things are bad now, a US default will send countries the world all over into depressions.

But isn't a default inevitable for them? Its going happen eventually will it not?

I actually couldn't see it not happening.

Raising the debt ceiling just kicks the can down the road.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUI3APfrYvk

Soulja boy

Sink The Banana wrote: »

Well if america and the EU fall, they can bring in a new currency to ease the situation.

A global currency that will save us all.

Hahaha, in the event of a full economic collapse? That new currency would be the number of troops you can send into a country. A resource grab would be the only possible outcome before any concept of stability and a world wide currency would be considered.

Rabies

Mark200 wrote: »

How?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_We_Can

I think that is what he was getting at

The Marlboro Man

Mark200 wrote: »

How?

Read post #26.

ilovesleep

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

I actually couldn't see it not happening.

Raising the debt ceiling just kicks the can down the road.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUI3APfrYvk

Thats exactly it really. A default will happen for them.

Soulja boy

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

I actually couldn't see it not happening.

Raising the debt ceiling just kicks the can down the road.

That can has been kicked down the road since world war two, I very much doubt short sighted politicians are going to deal with this properly. I mean even now they are using it as a leverage tool for the elections next year instead of kicking up a fuss for proper reasons.

Chuck Stone

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

We need a third world war. I'm not trolling or anything, it's just that it's the only legal way to reduce the global population, which, let's face it, is growing out of proportion. A US default could well help spur on a third world war.

What?

Christ KP what's up with that view?

The world isn't over populated at all. It could probably handle double the population with current efficiency in farming.

T'would make a good thread title 'Is the world over populated'?

I say nay.

iPlop

Soulja boy wrote: »

Hahaha, in the event of a full economic collapse? That new currency would be the number of troops you can send into a country. A resource grab would be the only possible outcome before any concept of stability and a world wide currency would be considered.

It's the only outcome of this worldwide mess.A new start, fúck the past, start again, and we'll all play on an even keel.

Are you explaining what the IMF are doing to our country in that post?

Mark200

The Marlboro Man wrote: »

Mark200 wrote: »

How?

Read post #26.

Many believe that that would be unconstitutional. It'd cause a constitutional crisis anyway. It says in the first sentence of the amendment that it refers to debt authorized by Congress. At the moment Congress are refusing to authorize debt. It's not as clear cut as you think.