Can you secure a training contract with 2:2 degree?

QueenV

Hi all

A mate of mine graduated with a 2:2 degree in commerce last year.Due to personal family issues she lost focus along the way and had to basically support herself through college and that badly affected her grades etc

It's been a year and she still hasn't managed to secure a training contract with any small medium size firm. She has no chance with the Big Four cos they're very stringent when it comes to grades and min requirements.

She wants to start off in practice and then move onto the industry once she's qualified.Has registered with the institute for CAP 2s which is self funded.

Has rang through to most HR personnel to discuss her circumstances and they're quite ruthless most of the time.Has applied to various firms and was rejected on numerous occasions.There's nothing wrong with her CV as it had been reviewed by professionals.So imo its her grade that is the problem.

She's really down in the dumps atm and feels like a failure when compared to all of our mates.She's really sound lovely girl who just wants to succeed in life.

So my question is that how hard is it to secure a training contract in this climate and is she really doomed?

Thoughts??

Thank you

r.dunne7

Hi Queen

The truth of the matter is that it will be hard to secure jobs at the presnet climate as there are so few jobs going and so many candidates applying even if you have a 2.2 or 2.1

However look on the positve side, everything has some way of sorting it out, jsut stick at it, keep the head held high and dont give up. You can always prove yourself by passing the chartered accountants first time, that always looks good on the C.V, the exams are a lot harder to that will show employers you are academically inclined. Have you considered completing your training contract in the UK, and do the ICAEW exams, there should be more job oppurtunites there!

In 5 years time your 2.2 wont matter anymore,

Feeling down and sad about the situation is quite normal but ask yourself is feeling sad and anxious gonno change my circumstance or is it gonno hinder every facet of your life, unfortunatley its the latter , feeling sad aint gonno solve anything!! CHIN UP!

Grieve for a bit and then get up.

A word of advice is dont compare with your friends it doenst help when your freinds have jobs in big 4, medium practise, so dont compare sometimes you are ahead in life sometimes you are behind.

If you want to compare , look at the many people suffering in Africa from basic food and sanitiry requirements and think how lucky you are!

Good luck in your job search, something always comes around!!

smcgiff

Any chance of doing a masters and going for a top grade?

QueenV

Thanks rdunne

I suppose that could be an option

Stabshauptmann

I dont work in HR, but I would dismiss a CV with a 2.2.

Either beef up the application with an amazing cover letter detailing all the other things this candidate has achieved and has going for them, or improve their educational qualifications - PDA, Masters, Part-Qualified etc.

Stabshauptmann

I dont work in HR, but I would dismiss a CV with a 2.2.

Either beef up the application with an amazing cover letter detailing all the other things this candidate has achieved and has going for them, or improve their educational qualifications - PDA, Masters, Part-Qualified etc.

iMuse

Hi slightly off topic but, Im going into my final year of an accounting course in an IT. My grades so far have been 2:1 level but would I realistically need a first class honors degree to even have my CV looked at? Or do most firms look at IT degrees as all the same regardless of grades achieved?

androma

i have a 2.2, never did accountancy before (law background), other than completing cap 1, and on my first interview got into a ten man private practice in galway which has less opportunities than dublin. So it can be done....

Stabshauptmann

androma wrote: »

i have a 2.2, never did accountancy before (law background), other than completing cap 1, and on my first interview got into a ten man private practice in galway which has less opportunities than dublin. So it can be done....

your post is a little unclear, did you do your cap 1s externally?

I'd recommend this actually as the best way to beef up a CV. it's cheaper and less time consuming than a PDA or masters, and shows focus. but my opinion should be taken with salt, I am not in hr and no nothing of my firms recruitment strategy

Emperor1989

I am 21 and have a 2.1 Undergraduate Degree. A fairly handy CV and Cap 1 exemptions and just completing my Masters and studying to repeat to get Cap 2 exemptions.

I found it impossible to get anything from the big 4 bar PWC but alas didn't get it.

I do expect my chances will be enchanced if i have my cap 2s

QueenV

Definitely, once you've got your Cap2s it should/ hopefully enhance your chances of securing a job
I know a guy who got a 2:2 in commerce in UCD and got into kpmg..but that was in 2009 before recession hit badly.

Hackysack

I have a 2.2 degree and was able to get a job in the Big4. Although this was over 2 years ago. I expect the market has changed drastically since then.

I've heard that when assessing your application some of the Big 4 allocate 'points' to each answer you put down on the application (e.g. Having a 1st will give you 10 points, a 2.1 = 5, 2.2 & lower = 0). And then they sum up all of your points and they then discard any CVs below a certain number (e.g. 60 points). I don't know this for definite but I recall talking to someone who worked in HR about that kind of thing.

df1985

I had a pass accounting degree, but by doing the ACCA's myself at my own expense and of my own accord, thats stood to me with HR firms and I had interviews with a few firms.It was my lack of experience, not my grades that knocked me back.

As it turns out I had to accept an unpaid internship but its a foot in the door with a major US bank in the IFSC which may lead to a job in a few months. If nothing turns up she should continue at the exams herself if she can, or look into internships, she would not lose her social welfare is shes claiming and its valuable experience for the CV.

Theres always hope, trust me-My life was turned upside down also by family issues,lost both my parents, had to support myself, but she will get there in time, dont let it get her down.

Stabshauptmann

OP, ignore anyone who gives advice about recruitment before 2008. Those were different times, (Sept 2008 was when the Govt introduced the guarentee scheme).

The ICAI is basically just an extension of the Big 4. You can approximate how picky they are by reference to FAE pass rates. During the boom it was easy to get into the Big 4, and pass rates at FAE were in the 80s.
In 2007 it was 82%, in 2008 and 2009 it was 77%, and 62% last year.

The firms are being pickier about who they are hiring, and the ICAI (which is basically the big 4) is doing a more thorough job of weeding people out.

BESman

I don't think its as black and white as 2.2 means no chance.

Big 4 will most likely not accept a 2.2 candidate. But lots of top 10 firms will consider 2.2 candidates if they have a well presented CV and some exemptions. I know of 2.2 candidates that have secured contracts with reasonable size firms but they often had some sway with the firm (knew a manager or had a relative inside). So I would advise this girl to use any kind of connections she may have and continue with obtaining her exemptions or completing a masters.

berettaman

2.2 and get a training contract? It can be done. You have to be lucky but I would focus on small firms as you get great quality training ( exposure to lots of different areas) and you can get access to partners. Get an institute directory and write to principals of small firms if they do not have a HR department. One of the best ACAs I know started with a 2.2 B.Comm. He is now a hell of an ACA. (Same situation as OP with family probs in college.) I wish I needed a trainee at the moment, some serious talent out there..Do not let your mate give up. B.:)

Night_Prowler

I agree with most here that unfortunately it is very difficult in the current climate to get in with anything less than a 2.1 at the moment...however you will get it eventually. With regards beefing up your CV, make sure you highlight any previous experience that you may have with team playing, working with others, managing others, working on your own initiative, your achievements to date etc. Acedemics are only one part of the overall application, an impressive CV in order areas may open some doors for you. It also doent hurt to make contacts, so get out and about in the grad fairs, open days adn get talking to the managers at these. You could also try getting in touch with your old lecturers etc at the end of the day they probably trained in Big 4 and will probably have some contacts themselves that may help you in getting an interview.

Good luck!

QueenV

Thank you all for your replies so far....very encouraging

maninblack

I've a 2.1 Msc and 2.1 BSc with results all in the 60/70s. Cap1 and Cap2 both cleared and I still cannot secure a contract (been applying for the last 18mts).

Nowhere will touch me because of my poor Leaving Cert (300ish points). Must have applied to well over 30 firms at this stage. Had interviews at 6 different places and had no luck. When I ring for feedback then they tell me they've minimum standards that need meeting over the LC. Total joke really, I never even did Business, Accounting or Economics for the LC. I took languages and science subjects

yesman2000

What LC points do they normally look for maninblack?

maninblack

yesman2000 wrote: »

What LC points do they normally look for maninblack?

Just some of the places I've applied and heard back what they were looking for:

KPMG, min 500 pts
Glanbia, min 450 pts
HBC, min 450 pts
E&Y, min 400/450

Of course these are just guideline figures, I'm sure exceptions are made for people with 1.1 BSc's or MSc's.

Seems pretty ridiculous though that the LC from 5yrs ago should even be discussed in an interview when I've a clear track record in college.

For instance, I know first hand of one guy in my class who got 500+ points in his LC in 2007 and got picked up by KPMG in January. He got a 2.2 BSc, failing one subject in final year in his undergrad. In the MSc he failed 2/3 exams at Xmas, then 2/5 in May. He's looking at 4 repeats next month, probably landing him with a 3rd grade MSc IF he even passes all 4, and KPMG wouldn't even return my calls when I cruised the MSc. The logic of these firms and their recruitment policies. Makes you wonder.

ted2767

Have you considered going to the UK?

maninblack

ted2767 wrote: »

Have you considered going to the UK?

yep, had a final round interview with EY London, got rejected. Tbh, wasn't too keen on it anyway. Told me I'd have to repeat CAP1 Law, CAP1 Tax and CAP2 Tax. Seemed like a lot of hassle.

I dno, pretty much at the mercy of the milkrounds now.

QueenV

Wow...

Are you just focusing on the Big Four?Do you feel that even though you might have been rejected on numerous occasions you might still have a chance to secure a job?

Have you tried ringing through HR depts of these firms

How about Small Medium size practices? Top 10?Any luck with those?

maninblack

QueenV wrote: »

Wow...

Are you just focusing on the Big Four?Do you feel that even though you might have been rejected on numerous occasions you might still have a chance to secure a job?

Have you tried ringing through HR depts of these firms

How about Small Medium size practices? Top 10?Any luck with those?

Been applying to pretty much the top 10-12 in Dublin. Kind of giving up on that now though, seems like a lost cause. Had an interview with a small firm last Friday evening which went pretty well. Salary was very very poor though, only 18k! :eek: I had an interview with FGS last October and they were paying €27k.

Not that I'm too hung up on the salary really; 18k is seriously low though. Be living on the breadline for 3yrs if I've to pay rent etc

QueenV

I know what you mean..

Yeah 18k is measly as hell!A mate of my works in the industry and is on 25k but was thinking about moving into practice!


Had an interview there with a small firm and nearly choked when they mentioned the salary was 18k.Like are they taking the piss or what?

Anyway good luck with your search and hope everything works out.

Stabshauptmann

maninblack wrote: »

Nowhere will touch me because of my poor Leaving Cert (300ish points). ... Had interviews at 6 different places and had no luck. When I ring for feedback then they tell me they've minimum standards that need meeting over the LC.

I'd be skeptical myself, I would not have expected to get to an interview if I didnt meet the minimum academic standards. Perhaps there is something else going wrong at interview stage, and the LC points is just a fobbed off excuse

maninblack

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

I'd be skeptical myself, I would not have expected to get to an interview if I didnt meet the minimum academic standards. Perhaps there is something else going wrong at interview stage, and the LC points is just a fobbed off excuse

I don't actually put my LC on the CV, so they're only finding out I did crap when they ask me about it at the interview stage.

I've done loads of interview coaching etc, and the feedback I've gotten from the HR people have all said I was grand in terms of talking etc, it was purely a results business.

It's just the way it is atm, never been tougher to secure a contract. All my lecturers were even saying that back in the boom years the top 4 would be fighting trying to recruit people even with low 2.2's. How times have changed

Stabshauptmann

sorry to hear that man, it seems foolish if it is a minimum requirement firms have not to include it in the pre-interview application process.

I think some Big 4 for example ask for it in the online application form

Night_Prowler

in fairness on the salaries, 18 is pretty standard. I began my training contract in 2004 (offers 2003) and the lower range of the scale was 16k. Whats important to remember is that its not 18k for 3 years - the jumps can be quite significant as you progress and your looking at 40/45 approx at the of your contract. If you get a contract for 18 and your happy with the firm then take it!

jkjhngk

Night_Prowler wrote: »

in fairness on the salaries, 18 is pretty standard. I began my training contract in 2004 (offers 2003) and the lower range of the scale was 16k. Whats important to remember is that its not 18k for 3 years - the jumps can be quite significant as you progress and your looking at 40/45 approx at the of your contract. If you get a contract for 18 and your happy with the firm then take it!

if one decides to get a job in say a fund accountanting company, and sits exams on his own, and passes in say 2 years and qualifies after 3 years (work exp etc), what has the person from a big 4 company got that would make them a better candidate, for example you see job adverts for people with big 4 experience.

like FA jobs would pay 30+ startin out for example.

Antheia

OP I'm very surprised to hear the leaving cert could be such an issue.

Does anyone think a person with a 1.1 could lose out on jobs due to having an average leaving cert?

berettaman

Training contract wages LOL. When we started in 1996 the firm offered us €4600 Per annum.:rolleyes: Unreal...

maninblack

got offered the job anyway lads in the small firm.

I'm definately taking it anyway. I'd be sick if I passed on the opportunity, gambled on the milkrounds and ended up with nothing!

Just hope to god I won't have trouble in a couple of years when I move into industry and DONT have "Top 4 experiance"

Theboinkmaster

QueenV wrote: »

Hi all

A mate of mine graduated with a 2:2 degree in commerce last year.Due to personal family issues she lost focus along the way and had to basically support herself through college and that badly affected her grades etc

It's been a year and she still hasn't managed to secure a training contract with any small medium size firm. She has no chance with the Big Four cos they're very stringent when it comes to grades and min requirements.

She wants to start off in practice and then move onto the industry once she's qualified.Has registered with the institute for CAP 2s which is self funded.

Has rang through to most HR personnel to discuss her circumstances and they're quite ruthless most of the time.Has applied to various firms and was rejected on numerous occasions.There's nothing wrong with her CV as it had been reviewed by professionals.So imo its her grade that is the problem.

She's really down in the dumps atm and feels like a failure when compared to all of our mates.She's really sound lovely girl who just wants to succeed in life.

So my question is that how hard is it to secure a training contract in this climate and is she really doomed?

Thoughts??

Thank you

I did the milkrounds in October 2001 - all the firms were cutting back due to 9/11 so was competitive enough, though maybe not as much as it is now.

I was on a 2.2 BComm and not only got interviews with all big4 but offered a training contract in each one. The reason for this was practical experience - I had worked in a small firm for summers, doing accounts prep etc.

IMO it's not just the 2.2 holding her back, could be the application forms etc and something else.

She should try to get some practical experience, even work for free to gain it.

A 2.2 will not stop her getting a training contract in the big4.

r.dunne7

maninblack wrote: »

got offered the job anyway lads in the small firm.

I'm definately taking it anyway. I'd be sick if I passed on the opportunity, gambled on the milkrounds and ended up with nothing!

Just hope to god I won't have trouble in a couple of years when I move into industry and DONT have "Top 4 experiance"

Hi

Why ondt you try and work in this company but not sign a contract and get 6 months experince while you apply for the milkround! This will put you in a good postion!