Budget 2012

J77

Any predictions on how the budget will affect the motorist?

Tax, VRT, car prices etc.

Sobanek

Government didn't make money of them this year that much so probably the fuel taxes will go up, road tax will go up (or what some people call it motor tax :rolleyes: ), VRT will of course go up to "support the irish economy by buying cars from Irish dealers". That's about it really.

Guy:Incognito

Sobanek wrote: »

(or what some people call it motor tax :rolleyes: ), .

"some people" like the people who charge and collect it Calling it road tax and rollign your eyes doesnt make it any less wrong. Its not for roads.

i predict free cars for all. I hope mines a 92 Diesel Jetta.:p

Sobanek

Of course it does. Motor Tax income goes toward the maintenance of the roads. What else would it go towards? Patching the ozone layer with the 50 quid notes? Get real.

Guy:Incognito

Sobanek wrote: »

Of course it does. Motor Tax income goes toward the maintenance of the roads. What else would it go towards? Patching the ozone layer with the 50 quid notes? Get real.

It goes to everything the council spends money on. Some of which is the upkeep of roads. Its not a roads fund. Its as much a Pencils for the office tax as it is a road tax.

I hope my jetta comes from it though.

Stheno

I suspect they may try to align the CO2 emisson rates with the non CO2 emisson rates to the detriment of CO2 owners.

MetzgerMeister

Sobanek wrote: »

Of course it does. Motor Tax income goes toward the maintenance of the roads. What else would it go towards? Patching the ozone layer with the 50 quid notes? Get real.

He was being "real". Motor tax is exactly what it says on the tin. It's a tax we all pay to own a car, not road tax to drive on roads.

Motor tax is a revenue generator, nothing more. The money councils get for the roads might indirectly include some money collected from Motor tax along with every other tax. Suffice to say, the money we all pay does not go directly into the roads network/infrastructure.

RedorDead

Think it is a no brainer that they will go after co2 road tax bands. They last set them in late 2007 when the average car probably omitted 150-160g. This is now more than likely 135g. I mean a BMW 520D emits just 120g of co2 now for fecks sake.

I would revise the bands to something like the following:

0-70g - €0
71g-99g - €100
100g-120g - €200
121g - 140g - €300
141g - 160g - €400
161g - 180g - €600
181g - 200g - €800
201g + - €1000

Mr Benevolent

Old and new tax bands will go up. Ah feck, I just realised I have to tax 'ol Betsy today!

pajo1981

Sobanek wrote: »

Of course it does. Motor Tax income goes toward the maintenance of the roads. What else would it go towards? Patching the ozone layer with the 50 quid notes? Get real.

Motor tax goes into the general tax pool.

People call it motor tax because.. that's what it's called.
:rolleyes:

Cookie_Monster

Fuel duty - another 2c or so
Carbon Tax - another 0.5%
Insurance Tax - another 1%
Tolls - More created (as per recent press)
Motor Tax - CO2 rates to go up a lot, 15% and/or band realignment

and maybe even an increase in NCT costs.

Those are my predictions

MetzgerMeister

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Fuel duty - another 2c or so
Carbon Tax - another 0.5%
Insurance Tax - another 1%
Tolls - More created (as per recent press)
Motor Tax - CO2 rates to go up a lot, 15% and/or band realignment

and maybe even an increase in NCT costs.

Those are my predictions

The NCT doesn't have anything to do with the exchequer does it? I thought that was a private sector company?

Timmaay

RedorDead wrote: »

I would revise the bands to something like the following:

0-70g - €0
71g-99g - €100
100g-120g - €200
121g - 140g - €300
141g - 160g - €400
161g - 180g - €600
181g - 200g - €800
201g + - €1000

This would make far far more sense then the current stupid system they have. It would be realistic to have this for all vehicles as well, and not just 2008 up. The two tier system has totally messed up the 2nd hand market, and I think it would be far better to have everyone on the same playing field.

cork sham

Why should a 2010 bmw 520d pay €156 tax per year, while a 2006 1.6 focus is €456. The bmw takes up more space, and is heavier so hence causes more wear on the road surface.

The low emission system was flawwed from day one, they should stuck to the reduced vrt rate and not implemented the low tax aspect aswell.

In all fairness if your going to spend €5-20,000 trading up to a new car, saving a two or three hundred euro a year will hardly sway your decission either way.

Riskymove

pajo1981 wrote: »

Motor tax goes into the general tax pool.

actually it goes into the Local Government Fund, so it is somewhat targeted

Top Dog

RedorDead wrote: »

Think it is a no brainer that they will go after co2 road tax bands. They last set them in late 2007 when the average car probably omitted 150-160g. This is now more than likely 135g. I mean a BMW 520D emits just 120g of co2 now for fecks sake.

I would revise the bands to something like the following:

0-70g - €0
71g-99g - €100
100g-120g - €200
121g - 140g - €300
141g - 160g - €400
161g - 180g - €600
181g - 200g - €800
201g + - €1000

What political party do you represent? Because if you're going to offer motor tax of €1000 for a 201g+ vehicle then I want to give you my vote

mickdw

Top Dog wrote: »

What political party do you represent? Because if you're going to offer motor tax of €1000 for a 201g+ vehicle then I want to give you my vote

They could easy balance the books with a max rate of €1000 if they so wished.

Top Dog

mickdw wrote: »

They could easy balance the books with a max rate of €1000 if they so wished.

No doubt Mick - but that would require a little thought and effort on their part, so I don't see it happening any time soon

shawnee

cork sham wrote: »

Why should a 2010 bmw 520d pay €156 tax per year, while a 2006 1.6 focus is €456. The bmw takes up more space, and is heavier so hence causes more wear on the road surface.

The low emission system was flawwed from day one, they should stuck to the reduced vrt rate and not implemented the low tax aspect aswell.

In all fairness if your going to spend €5-20,000 trading up to a new car, saving a two or three hundred euro a year will hardly sway your decission either way.

While I don't agree with that tax regime, you would be surprised at the amount of people that are prepared to spend 15 to 20 grand to save 300 or 400 euro tax. They really don't see the 15 to 20 grand as tax atall

Timmaay

mickdw wrote: »

They could easy balance the books with a max rate of €1000 if they so wished.

I'd say they would actually bring in more money if they had the highest rate of tax at 1000quid, for both co2 and cc based systems!! 1500quid tax is just too high, so many people with larger engines just don't tax it, or tax their car for only 3months of the year, then of course these larger engined cars are less fuel efficient, so the government gets more money on fuel duty! Winwin for everyone. well except the treehuggers, but meh!

marc1

I think you are missing the point here! The CO2 rates were brought in all over Europe to force manufacturers to bring down the CO2 levels!

Overall that policy was very successful, as said before a car as heavy as the 520d is now in the second lowest tax band. The idea is not to punish people for driving nice cars, but to punish (or tax ) them for harming the environment. In the long run higher rates of CO2 will due much more damage to the economy then fixing the roads.

As this policy has worked so well until now - I would create 2 new bands at the bottom. 60 - 79 is tax free, 80 to 99 is 104 EUR. 100 to 119 is 156. At at the very top create 2 new bands that are more expensive again.

If European governments keep changing the bands every 3 to 4 years, the 2020 BMW 520D will emit 59g of CO2 :cool:

cadaliac

Anyone got any predictions on the old cc based system?
i.e. 1.6, 1.8, 1.9 or 2.0 ltr costs?
They will go up surely, but by how much?

Cionád

cadaliac wrote: »

Anyone got any predictions on the old cc based system?
i.e. 1.6, 1.8, 1.9 or 2.0 ltr costs?
They will go up surely, but by how much?

5% was mentioned at some stage during the last few weeks.

Cionád

Cionád wrote: »

5% was mentioned at some stage during the last few weeks.

That's better than the €50 under 2.0 and €100 over 2.0 figures that were in the public domain in the not so recent past

langdang

marc1 wrote: »

The idea is not to punish people for driving nice cars, but to punish (or tax ) them for harming the environment.

ROFL! Personally I'd regard a late nineties Jap car as more environmentally friendly (long life, light, small cleanish economical engine) but hey I'm odd - I don't think the extra power used by domestic incandescent lighting warrants replacing every bulb in your house with mercury bombs either....

Tea 1000

marc1 wrote: »

I think you are missing the point here! The CO2 rates were brought in all over Europe to force manufacturers to bring down the CO2 levels!

Overall that policy was very successful, as said before a car as heavy as the 520d is now in the second lowest tax band. The idea is not to punish people for driving nice cars, but to punish (or tax ) them for harming the environment. In the long run higher rates of CO2 will due much more damage to the economy then fixing the roads.

As this policy has worked so well until now - I would create 2 new bands at the bottom. 60 - 79 is tax free, 80 to 99 is 104 EUR. 100 to 119 is 156. At at the very top create 2 new bands that are more expensive again.

If European governments keep changing the bands every 3 to 4 years, the 2020 BMW 520D will emit 59g of CO2 :cool:

Add 2 new tax bands above the top one? Are you mad? It's already stupidly unfair. How is it OK for someone on one hand go to a car that emits one gram of CO2 more than their previous one and only get €150 added on to their tax, yet at the other end of the scale you go from €1050 tax to €2100 tax in one gram? That's pure daft.
If anything, they should introduce one in between €630 and €1050, and another 2 between €1050 and €2100. In fact, €2100 tax is downright madness, given that they complain about £300 tax in the UK.
Also, daft and all as the CO2 system is, it's better than the cc based system.

marc1

langdang wrote: »

ROFL! Personally I'd regard a late nineties Jap car as more environmentally friendly (long life, light, small cleanish economical engine) but hey I'm odd - I don't think the extra power used by domestic incandescent lighting warrants replacing every bulb in your house with mercury bombs either....

That is correct, but if you are about to change your late nineties Jap car, you should be encouraged to buy a new car with low CO2 emissions.

langdang

marc1 wrote: »

That is correct, but if you are about to change your late nineties Jap car, you should be encouraged to buy a new car with low CO2 emissions.

No - long term if they still produced those cars, with a few environmental tweaks on the original manufacturing flow, they would be still better for the environment. Somehow I can't see young drivers in 2025 driving any of the current crop of diesels. Due to high cost of parts, the diesels just won't be practical at that age (compared to a starlet,corolla, suzuki swift, civic)

CO2 is highly taxable rather than highly toxic.

Absurdum

they should tax cars based on boot size

marc1

langdang wrote: »

No - long term if they still produced those cars, with a few environmental tweaks on the original manufacturing flow, they would be still better for the environment. Somehow I can't see young drivers in 2025 driving any of the current crop of diesels. Due to high cost of parts, the diesels just won't be practical at that age (compared to a starlet,corolla, suzuki swift, civic)

CO2 is highly taxable rather than highly toxic.

Partially agree again - CO2 is not toxic by itself and I have no idea what kind of mpg (and CO2 output) you get from a 1992 Corolla. I just know I would not want to drive one. :-)

CO2 is the easiest to tax if you are taxing for environmental reasons - CO2 levels are very closely related to fuel consumption, which is ultimately what you want to drive down. And I think the current tax system is doing that very efficiently. Creating new lower bands and increasing the costs for those higher up would be the most efficient way to continue that process.

Hopefully by 2025 CO2 emissions will be 0 while driving and we can fuel our cars up with Hydrogen or electricity that will be produced somewhere else efficiently.

Nixer Jim

I myself would suggest some sort of rebalance of the system where by Luxury cars can be distinguished between Ordinary family cars. I'll pop my head out to be lobbed off here but this would be my suggestion for what it's worth:

1) the C02 system and bands would remain as before i.e A/B/C etc.

2) No increase on any vehicles based on the old system (Pre 2008)

3) New Table forVRT and tax applicable:

Vehicles under 1599 CC (To be called Class 1) ~ As before

Vehicles between 1600 CC - 1999 CC ( To be called Class 2) ~ 5% increase in VRT rate and €100 extra per year for road tax.*

Vehicles between 2000 CC - 2499 CC ( To be called Class 3) ~ 15% increase in VRT rate and €150 extra per year for road tax.*

Vehicles over 2500 CC ( To be called Class 4) ~ 25% increase in VRT rate and €250 extra per year for road tax. *

(* Over and above Class 1)

Balances things up dont you think!

-Corkie-

All Octavias are to to taxed commercially from January...

Zubeneschamali

Nixer Jim wrote: »

Balances things up dont you think!

Why do you imagine that larger cars are luxury items compared to smaller cars?

Anyone with 3 or more kids needs a large car to belt them all in properly, you can't just sling one in the boot like when I was a kid.

prettygurrly

i'm just worried about when the changes in VRT will be implemented. are we talking jan 1st? importing a car on friday as i've had to wait for an appointment to get the car tested by the nct centre...annoyingly i had an appointment last thurs but due to this project i was in i just couldn't find the time to go so had to change it for this thurs instead.
also hope they dont change the tax bands too much although i have bought a 1.4 diesel with the caveat that this could happen, at least its not a 2.0.
y'll keep your fingers crossed for me...i is a student and have just spent a lot of my savings on a more reliable car than my 02 1.7 corsa...

Voodoomelon

Nixer Jim wrote: »

I myself would suggest some sort of rebalance of the system where by Luxury cars can be distinguished between Ordinary family cars. I'll pop my head out to be lobbed off here but this would be my suggestion for what it's worth:

1) the C02 system and bands would remain as before i.e A/B/C etc.

2) No increase on any vehicles based on the old system (Pre 2008)

3) New Table forVRT and tax applicable:

Vehicles under 1599 CC (To be called Class 1) ~ As before

Vehicles between 1600 CC - 1999 CC ( To be called Class 2) ~ 5% increase in VRT rate and €100 extra per year for road tax.*

Vehicles between 2000 CC - 2499 CC ( To be called Class 3) ~ 15% increase in VRT rate and €150 extra per year for road tax.*

Vehicles over 2500 CC ( To be called Class 4) ~ 25% increase in VRT rate and €250 extra per year for road tax. *

(* Over and above Class 1)

Balances things up dont you think!

Your method only makes a small bit of sense on newly purchased cars. Yes its fair enough that a €80k+ car should pay more tax/vrt than a €20k family saloon.

But what happens when that €80k car is worth €10k, and someone can pay €28k on a new Avensis and pay less tax?

helimachoptor

prettygurrly wrote: »

i'm just worried about when the changes in VRT will be implemented. are we talking jan 1st? importing a car on friday as i've had to wait for an appointment to get the car tested by the nct centre...annoyingly i had an appointment last thurs but due to this project i was in i just couldn't find the time to go so had to change it for this thurs instead.
also hope they dont change the tax bands too much although i have bought a 1.4 diesel with the caveat that this could happen, at least its not a 2.0.
y'll keep your fingers crossed for me...i is a student and have just spent a lot of my savings on a more reliable car than my 02 1.7 corsa...

sorry i'm grabbing bits of the budget, but i havent seen a VRT rise yet??

Riskymove

Currentky reported on RTE

The car tax scale based on emissions will go up, incl €104 to €160 and €156 to €225. This should bring in around €50m.

prettygurrly

ugh still better than the 471 i was paying on the corsa...but cud do without anymore hikes...dunno wat next year and the grant is going to be like...

fingers crossed on the lack VRT hikes....

Leonard Hofstadter

Riskymove wrote: »

Currentky reported on RTE

Cannot object to that really, it is a complete anomoly that someone with a band B car is paying €156 at present if it's registered after 2008, but could be paying as much €614 if it was say a 2007 2.0 diesel.

If all the other bands are being hiked by 5% then I think that is fair enough. Of course I would prefer that this did not happen, but it could be much worse.

The current system, with over 90% of new cars this year being in tax band A or tax band B, was never going to last and it is ridiculous to think that it could have.

The one thing that does concern me is that apparently the bands themselves are going to change as well. It would be a massive catastrophe if they were to change these for cars currently registered, any changes here should only apply to anything from next year on. I would hate to be the person who has a 2008-2011 car that polluted say 224 g/km, only to find that from next year this car is now band G rather than band F, which would mean a tax hike of around €1,100, because all the rates are going up by 5%, so it wouldn't just be a case of going from €1,050 to €2,100, but a case of going from €1,050 to €2,100 plus 5% on top of that.

Timmaay

In fairness Lightning, it was no secret that the CO2 system was unsustainable with 90% of new cars on tax bands A or B, and the government were always going to bump these up, anyone buying a new car for low tax only didn't do their homework!

Leonard Hofstadter

LIGHTNING wrote: »

While I hated paying 372e on my Punto and the exact same engine with identical emissons on a new model was paying 104e I dont think its fair to hike up the rates.

Alot of people bought cars because of the cheap tax (how many threads do we get here in boards) and to then nail with with a decent increase isnt exactly fair.

That is a problem with attitude, only in Ireland is spending €10k on a brand new car to save maybe €200 a year in tax seen as a good thing!

I'm sorry but I have not an ounce of sympathy for such people. If you can afford a new car, then you can afford more than €104 or €156 a year road tax.

Hiking up the tax on new cars could actually be a very good thing for the car industry, people are getting SFA for their trade ins on anything before 08, especially if the cars are petrols, now that the tax differential will be smaller it will make these cars relatively speaking more attractive, and the newer cars relatively speaking less attractive, narrowing the price gap between pre 08 cars and post 08 cars.

If pre 08 cars are now worth more, then it may be a very good thing for new car sales; dealers are more likely to take them as trade ins, because these older cars are now more desirable than before, and that reduces the cost to change for anyone with a pre 08 car, therefore making them more likely to buy a new car.

At the same time, these people with a pre 08 car will still be saving a nice bit of money on the road tax by trading up to a low CO2 box on wheels.

Riskymove

LIGHTNING wrote: »

It was a incentive for people to buy low emission cars and now they start hiking up the rates. Poor show by the goverment but nothing I wouldnt expect from them.

The incentive was from the Greens who care about such things

the current govenrment do not!

prettygurrly

you're forgetting of course that there are less and less pre-08 cars as people trade up. sure it's nearly 4 years since 08, soon enough we would have all been on the new tax bands except for people with classic cars practically. it's unlikely that you would see a 99 car around the place now.

i do take your point about the 2nd hard market being hit by the difference in tax...but had been looking forward to getting a 08 car because it could be on the new tax band. as i said though, i got a 1.4 as i dont need a bigger engine and in case something like the cc measure for tax occurred again. i dont plan on changing my car for at least 3 years if can help it.

Leonard Hofstadter

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Thats not how they were sold! I didnt see anybody saying only 104e tax but expect it to go up very shortly after you buy. It was a incentive for people to buy low emission cars and now they start hiking up the rates. Poor show by the goverment but nothing I wouldnt expect from them.

That may be the case, but no-one with an ounce of common sense would have thought €104 and €156 tax cars representing over 90% of new car sales was sustainable.

It was discussed on numerous occasions here on motors for starters.

Also, the ultra low tax rates have been there for over three years now so unless you bought a car this year it's not like you bought a low tax car only to never get the benefit out of it.

_Kaiser_

prettygurrly wrote: »

you're forgetting of course that there are less and less pre-08 cars as people trade up. sure it's nearly 4 years since 08, soon enough we would have all been on the new tax bands except for people with classic cars practically. it's unlikely that you would see a 99 car around the place now.

Have to disagree there.. there's still A LOT of "older" cars out there 99 and older. And nothing wrong with most of em either!

I agree with CS above though - this might actually be a good move and restore some balance to the system as well as encourage people to trade-up which can only help all concerned.

Having a 2L BMW 5er on €156 a year (or was it even less?) was never going to be sustainable, never mind fair to those who can't afford to just run out and buy a new car,

prettygurrly

Riskymove wrote: »

The incentive was from the Greens who care about such things

the current govenrment do not!

yeah not liking this anti green attitude and the anti education (from labour who were the students' vote) atttitude. would prefer to see harney on 20k a year if she simply must have pension. why does she have to be earning 3 times what i hope to be making at the height of my career?

there's a much bigger picture here guys.

prettygurrly

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Have to disagree there.. there's still A LOT of "older" cars out there 99 and older. And nothing wrong with most of em either!

true but due to the scrappage scheme there are definitely a lot less older cars out there, in comparison to how many late naughties there are....

_Kaiser_

prettygurrly wrote: »

yeah not liking this anti green attitude

There was nothing "green" about the policies introduced by the last government - it was merely a thinly disguised way to extract more revenue/tax from the average joe.

there's a much bigger picture here guys.

That much I agree with you on - this is ultimately all about placating the EU (ie: Germany and France these days) at the expense of the Irish citizen (figuratively and literally)

Leonard Hofstadter

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Having a 2L BMW 5er on €156 a year (or was it even less?) was never going to be sustainable, never mind fair to those who can't afford to just run out and buy a new car,

Keep up with the times, the 2012 530d automatic is €156 in tax, the 520d is down to €104 if it's the ED model .

You can't blame BMW for beating the system with their lower emissions cars, to be fair Audi does a 3l diesel with €156 tax as well, next year's Avensis is €104 tax with the 2l diesel, the current 2l 140 diesel Passat is also €104 so it's far from just BMW that have come up with engines that beat the system.

_Kaiser_

prettygurrly wrote: »

true but due to the scrappage scheme there are definitely a lot less older cars out there, in comparison to how many late naughties there are....

I'd still have to disagree to be honest. From my observations I'd say the balance between 08+ and older is about 35/65 myself. That's in and outside Dublin.

There's definitely not many 11 cars around this year compared to previous years.

dar83

prettygurrly wrote: »

it's unlikely that you would see a 99 car around the place now.

I'm not sure where you're living/driving, but I see a lot of 98/99/00/01 cars about the place and funnily enough they're usually smaller cars as well. I think the majority of people that are in similar circumstances to what you seem to be are the main market for older, smaller cars. Cheaper to run, tax and insure.

I think you might be the exception to the rule here.