In Counselling, mixed feelings

nesbitt

I am attending Counselling. It is a HSE funded facility and is one to one counselling. I have searched boards for advice on what to expect during and from counselling and could not find thread that would help me understand better what I can expect to go through.

Can anyone advise what format the sessions should take? I seem to be doing all the talking with limited interjection from professional. How can I gain from this?

The first session involved 'the tell me about yourself' so I tried to give my life history in one hour. I felt exhausted and confused afterwards.

The 2nd session I thought that based on what I had said on the first session the professional would ask me questions and there would be a format to the session. However I sat down at the beginning and the professional simply gestured that I start to speak after an awkward silence, I said confused 'sorry what is the format I don't know what you want me to say to you' the reply was 'talk about what is on your mind'. I felt stumped and I rambled on about alot of my life, over several decades.

During the monologue (that is how it felt), me talking the professional listening and occasionally commenting. I came to disclose something I had buried from my past and I just let it out there and my words just seemed to hang in the air. I thought I would cry but I got myself together and carried on feeling a bit weird.

I have a 3rd session booked, but what should I expect? More monologue from me or more input from the professional? I think I have revealed alot about my life and would hope for some advice from the professional.

I woke up last night and my mind was totally active with thoughts of the counselling session and the realisation that I have to deal with some painful issues. I am pre occupied today and the contents of the discussion keep playing in my head.

Should I like my councellor? Don't know how I feel to be honest?


I have a busy life and responsibilities and feel a bit overwhelmed by the councelling.

However, I need this councelling, that I am in no doubt about.

GAAman

nesbitt wrote: »

I woke up last night and my mind was totally active with thoughts of the counselling session and the realisation that I have to deal with some painful issues.

I have a busy life and responsibilities and feel a bit overwhelmed by the councelling.

However, I need this councelling, that I am in no doubt about.

Hi nesbitt, i honed in on these parts (having read the whole thing dont worry ) because you should be applauded on these particular parts. You know you need to face the issues and know that you need the counselling that is a pretty big step in itself!

As for the busy life part remember one thing, your mental health is paramount to your well being so time should not be an issue (speaking from experience i know this is easier said then done trust me!

Lastly you will feel a bit weird at first but you doing pretty much all of the talking is very normal, i was like you and i never talk about myself but when i was in the same position it took me some time to build a relationship with the counsellor and a comfort level in order to get to the place in the counselling that the benefits started.

If you want to, feel free to pm me

Babooshka

Nesbitt, counselling can be a drawn out process with no "set rules" layed out by the counsellor so to speak, it is your time to bring up whatever it is you want to bring up in that day, it is also not just that hour you're in there, it is something that you are better off trying to think about before going in there to know what it is you want to discuss. It isn't straight forward, it takes many twists and turns and it is sometimes frustrating, painful, you may sometimes decide you hate the counsellor (which is known as projection in the pshychology world meaning you're physically projecting your problems into your councellor to blame her or him for them, it's an avoidance tactic used subconsciously by most people and is very natural).

A lot of people think the counsellor will direct the session, and to be honest it depends on his or her approach, but in fact most don't, it's very much down to you how it will go, what will be discussed, and how honest or how much you're willing to go into. It takes a long time to build up trust in a counsellor so it's not going to happen in a few sessions, they say at least ten and then depending on the length of time or the depth of your issues, it can take months, years sometimes. It isn't for everyone. I can tell you having tried it myself whereby I had to pay a lot of money and I went for about 6 months, I just stopped going, as I got frustrated and felt I'd done enough for the time being. Maybe I was projecting onto the particular counsellor to avoid my own responsibility for my issues or maybe I genuinely found him crap, or maybe I wasn't ready to be honest with myself...I still don't know, but you'll know yourself in time what's what...give it some time and try to listen to your instincts. If you feel uncomfortable talking about certain things or broaching something, tell your counsellor this. They are there to mirror back to you what you describe to them in a professional way and help you to see your problem from a different perspective, and offer you tools to live a happier life as a result.

Counsellors know you will take a long while to completely feel safe to disclose your personal stuff, they're trained to know that. Time is the biggest advice I could give you. And if it's not working, try someone else, or some group work or whatever, just don't give up!

PS Feeling upset is very common when you begin to uncover your "real stuff" in councelling, you are bravely confronting your issues, and it takes courage and time...best of luck

nesbitt

GAAman wrote: »

Hi nesbitt, i honed in on these parts (having read the whole thing dont worry ) because you should be applauded on these particular parts. You know you need to face the issues and know that you need the counselling that is a pretty big step in itself!

As for the busy life part remember one thing, your mental health is paramount to your well being so time should not be an issue (speaking from experience i know this is easier said then done trust me!

Lastly you will feel a bit weird at first but you doing pretty much all of the talking is very normal, i was like you and i never talk about myself but when i was in the same position it took me some time to build a relationship with the counsellor and a comfort level in order to get to the place in the counselling that the benefits started.

If you want to, feel free to pm me

Thanks for your comments and advice. I am concluding that perhaps the sessions help me to counsell myself with guidance (hopefully).

neuro-praxis

fair play to you for having the courage to go to a counsellor.

What you are describing is a particular model of therapy - I know it is used in psychoanalysis which is rooted in the work of Freud.

I know this would not work for me.

My counsellor set goals for my counselling period, and asked me direct and pointed questions. She made suggestions and gave me homework. She was doing a mixture of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy and Life Coaching as well as a few other methods, even a bit of art and music therapy, but it involved me talking a lot too, naturally. And although it was arduous and painful I experienced great relief throughout and great healing and wellbeing by the end.

Your current method may not be the right one for you.

You should be able to trust your counsellor and feel totally safe. It sounds like this might be the wrong method and the wrong individual for you. I suggest asking your counsellor if they are willing to give you more input and direction. If they aren't, maybe it is time to move on.

nesbitt

Babooshka wrote: »

Nesbitt, counselling can be a drawn out process with no "set rules" layed out by the counsellor so to speak, it is your time to bring up whatever it is you want to bring up in that day, it is also not just that hour you're in there, it is something that you are better off trying to think about before going in there to know what it is you want to discuss. It isn't straight forward, it takes many twists and turns and it is sometimes frustrating, painful, you may sometimes decide you hate the counsellor (which is known as projection in the pshychology world meaning you're physically projecting your problems into your councellor to blame her or him for them, it's an avoidance tactic used subconsciously by most people and is very natural).

A lot of people think the counsellor will direct the session, and to be honest it depends on his or her approach, but in fact most don't, it's very much down to you how it will go, what will be discussed, and how honest or how much you're willing to go into. It takes a long time to build up trust in a counsellor so it's not going to happen in a few sessions, they say at least ten and then depending on the length of time or the depth of your issues, it can take months, years sometimes. It isn't for everyone. I can tell you having tried it myself whereby I had to pay a lot of money and I went for about 6 months, I just stopped going, as I got frustrated and felt I'd done enough for the time being. Maybe I was projecting onto the particular counsellor to avoid my own responsibility for my issues or maybe I genuinely found him crap, or maybe I wasn't ready to be honest with myself...I still don't know, but you'll know yourself in time what's what...give it some time and try to listen to your instincts. If you feel uncomfortable talking about certain things or broaching something, tell your counsellor this. They are there to mirror back to you what you describe to them in a professional way and help you to see your problem from a different perspective, and offer you tools to live a happier life as a result.

Counsellors know you will take a long while to completely feel safe to disclose your personal stuff, they're trained to know that. Time is the biggest advice I could give you. And if it's not working, try someone else, or some group work or whatever, just don't give up!

PS Feeling upset is very common when you begin to uncover your "real stuff" in councelling, you are bravely confronting your issues, and it takes courage and time...best of luck

Thanks for this insight. I can relate even though it is only two sessions that I have undergone. I note your comment about projecting your hurt/anger onto the counsellor etc. Don't feel like that, just thought he was chilly and bit clippy with me on some points and asked me to expand/explain analogys I used to try and explain my feelings. I felt stupid as I thought the analogy used was common and readily understood. I just patiently spelt it out for him what I meant. Further there was no effort made to build up any rapport with me, which is kind of throwing me in dealing with the counsellor.

Having said all that I seem to be venting and I am already totally honest in my replies. I feel that there will be no advantage in trying to 'window dress' my replies. I just answered as if I was injected with truth serum. That is how I felt, just let it all go.

nesbitt

neuro-praxis wrote: »

You should be able to trust your counsellor and feel totally safe. It sounds like this might be the wrong method and the wrong individual for you. I suggest asking your counsellor if they are willing to give you more input and direction. If they aren't, maybe it is time to move on.

I thought earlier today that I would give it a few more sessions and ask for input and direction/advice as to my way forward. Thanks.

Babooshka

Sounds like a plan Nesbitt. Neuro Praxis might be right it may not be the best approach for you, the one the counsellor is taking, but don't be afraid to ask for explanations about their methods etc.

And don't expect too much too soon, it does get worse before it gets better, I've never met a person who didn't have a hard time when going through counselling, there's a lot of home truths to face up to, and even though you think you're laying all your cards on the table, there are always more layers underneath that you're not fully aware of about yourself.

That is why they ask you to explain things 50 different ways, it is actually to give you more insight into why you believe the things that you do. You might think your explanations are straightforward but that is only because they're the explanations you bought into at a very early age and have lived with for so long, the counsellor (or in fact anyone) may not understand your explanation so readily. As you say you are using "common analagies"...that is probably the exact reason he is asking you to explain, common analagies all mean different things to different people, the differences may be subtle but they're there all the same. And I doubt that he wants you to window dress your answers....quite the opposite, I would say it is an effort to get you to strip them down even more than you think you are.

Counselling tries to untangle your wiring and follow it back to see where the beliefs come from....hope that makes sense. Don't give up whatever ya do! but do trust your gut and if you don't like the counsellor don't be afraid to change, it's all leading to somewhere else.

sambuka41

Hi Nesbitt fair play for acknowledging that you need to go into counselling, thats a huge step. As the others have said you seem to be going to a therapist who uses a more analytic approach. This is not a quick process, I have been attending my own analysis for a year and a half now, and will probably keep going for many years (I am also a psychoanalytic student so I have a requirement of hours to meet).

It will definitely take more than 2 sessions to bond with anyone,regardless of the discipline or type of therapy. You seem committed to the idea of counselling, I would stick with it.

In Ireland the main types of analysis used has been influenced by a guy called Lacan, he followed on from Freud. He placed a great emphasis on language and how we use it to represent/signify our world. So the choice of phrases/ analogies that you are using and what they mean to YOU will indicate a lot to the therapist about your thought processes. As Babooshka said everyone has a different frame of reference, and people use common phrases in different ways.

The only thing I would say about whether this is the right type of counselling is in relation to the fact that you have mentioned in 2 posts about getting advice from your counsellor; thats not what counselling is.
We have friends and family to advise us, counselors are there to help you look at your life in a different way. If there is a particular problem that you are having they are there to help you look at why you are in the problem situation in the first place, how you are reacting to it (the part you are playing in it all) from there you can make up your own mind about what to do,they shouldn't advise you. (not sure if thats what you meant by advice, its what a lot of people think counselling is about )

Best of Luck with it.

nesbitt

Babooshka wrote: »

Sounds like a plan Nesbitt. Neuro Praxis might be right it may not be the best approach for you, the one the counsellor is taking, but don't be afraid to ask for explanations about their methods etc.

And don't expect too much too soon, it does get worse before it gets better, I've never met a person who didn't have a hard time when going through counselling, there's a lot of home truths to face up to, and even though you think you're laying all your cards on the table, there are always more layers underneath that you're not fully aware of about yourself.

That is why they ask you to explain things 50 different ways, it is actually to give you more insight into why you believe the things that you do. You might think your explanations are straightforward but that is only because they're the explanations you bought into at a very early age and have lived with for so long, the counsellor (or in fact anyone) may not understand your explanation so readily. As you say you are using "common analagies"...that is probably the exact reason he is asking you to explain, common analagies all mean different things to different people, the differences may be subtle but they're there all the same. And I doubt that he wants you to window dress your answers....quite the opposite, I would say it is an effort to get you to strip them down even more than you think you are.

Counselling tries to untangle your wiring and follow it back to see where the beliefs come from....hope that makes sense. Don't give up whatever ya do! but do trust your gut and if you don't like the counsellor don't be afraid to change, it's all leading to somewhere else.

Thanks so much for explaining why the professional checked what I meant by using phrases and analagies. I now recall several more checks that were made during the session. He listened to me very thoroughly indeed and did 'pull me up' so to speak on some points and made me clarify what I meant. So now I understand, this helps me alot.

nesbitt

sambuka41 wrote: »

Hi Nesbitt fair play for acknowledging that you need to go into counselling, thats a huge step. As the others have said you seem to be going to a therapist who uses a more analytic approach. This is not a quick process, I have been attending my own analysis for a year and a half now, and will probably keep going for many years (I am also a psychoanalytic student so I have a requirement of hours to meet).

It will definitely take more than 2 sessions to bond with anyone,regardless of the discipline or type of therapy. You seem committed to the idea of counselling, I would stick with it.

In Ireland the main types of analysis used has been influenced by a guy called Lacan, he followed on from Freud. He placed a great emphasis on language and how we use it to represent/signify our world. So the choice of phrases/ analogies that you are using and what they mean to YOU will indicate a lot to the therapist about your thought processes. As Babooshka said everyone has a different frame of reference, and people use common phrases in different ways.

The only thing I would say about whether this is the right type of counselling is in relation to the fact that you have mentioned in 2 posts about getting advice from your counsellor; thats not what counselling is.
We have friends and family to advise us, counselors are there to help you look at your life in a different way. If there is a particular problem that you are having they are there to help you look at why you are in the problem situation in the first place, how you are reacting to it (the part you are playing in it all) from there you can make up your own mind about what to do,they shouldn't advise you. (not sure if thats what you meant by advice, its what a lot of people think counselling is about )

Best of Luck with it.

I was expecting to be 'analysed' given a 'verdict' as advised accordingly:):o. I do realise now that my counselling will run far deeper and take longer than I first thought. I did think six sessions and I'd be good to go. However some of my issues are there for decades so...

I feel I respect the professional, he is sharp as a tack and I sense he can help me get through the layers I have been covering up for so so long. I wont be giving up or changing any time soon.

nesbitt

Thanks to all for comment/advice posted here. This has helped me a great deal and I now understand what I am undergoing and what to expect as time goes on. I feel better and not as all over the place.

I have told my folks and brother about my counselling so feel no shame in seeking it. Okay its not something I would share with all and sundry, afterall its highly personal but don't feel its a taboo either.

kalihar

Hi Nesbitt,

How about asking your counsellor to explain their approach to you and to discuss your thoughts on the process so far with them? It might help clarify things more for you.

Best of luck

nesbitt

kalihar wrote: »

Hi Nesbitt,

How about asking your counsellor to explain their approach to you and to discuss your thoughts on the process so far with them? It might help clarify things more for you.

Best of luck

Yes, I will do just that. I dont feel confused now with info provided on here. I feel I can discuss this matter with alot more confidence when I am next in a counselling session.

LegacyUser

Hey,

I've been to various types of counselling.

I sat through about 10 sessions with someone who acted like your counsellor. It was the most frustrating thing I've ever done and the biggest waste of time and money. I thought that i should stick it out seeing as commitment was one of my issues. Towards the end I was in tears of frustration and she sat there looking at me.

I'm now going to a proper psychologist and within 3 sessions I'm feeling so much better - there's proper dialogue and within that time I've seen changes within myself.

i guess it depends on what you want out of it.......

nesbitt

beeneeenenthereee wrote: »

Hey,

I've been to various types of counselling.

I sat through about 10 sessions with someone who acted like your counsellor. It was the most frustrating thing I've ever done and the biggest waste of time and money. I thought that i should stick it out seeing as commitment was one of my issues. Towards the end I was in tears of frustration and she sat there looking at me.

I'm now going to a proper psychologist and within 3 sessions I'm feeling so much better - there's proper dialogue and within that time I've seen changes within myself.

i guess it depends on what you want out of it.......

I understand what you have described, and I suppose that is what I think will happen to me. I will pour my guts out and get to no conclusions other than what I already have come to over the years. I do need advice and guidance. Can you define the type of councelling you attend, would it be cognitive behaviour therapy or some such? Thanks

Babooshka

nesbitt wrote: »

Thanks to all for comment/advice posted here. This has helped me a great deal and I now understand what I am undergoing and what to expect as time goes on. I feel better and not as all over the place.

I have told my folks and brother about my counselling so feel no shame in seeking it. Okay its not something I would share with all and sundry, afterall its highly personal but don't feel its a taboo either.

Glad you feel a bit clearer Nesbitt. Yes the sooner the stigma surrounding counselling and seeking help disappears the better, people should be commended for opening up, not stigmatised! And remember the quote from Sigmund Freud (it's arguable if he said it in reality!) that the Irish can't be psychoanalyzed....it'd be fun if he did say it though!

Best of luck and have a great weekend. B

LegacyUser

nesbitt wrote: »

I am concluding that perhaps the sessions help me to counsell myself with guidance (hopefully).

Nail on the head. Thats what counselling is all about, feeling your way along the process so that you become your own adviser. Plus counselling is not just this 1 hour slot you turn up to once a week, you gotta work on yourself the days in between the sessions. Its like taking guitar lessons, the actual lesson will take about 30mins but the rest of the week, when you practice, is where the real progress is made. Some people turn up to counselling sessions and expect the counsellor to tell them what to do or give them advice, then get annoyed when that doesnt happen. They throw the dummy out of the cot and blame the counsellor. Those people go nowhere because they have a fundamental problem of expecting others to do their work for them.
Stick to it, but remember this is your ship so you're the one whos steering and calling the shots. You gotta put the "off the coach" work in aswell.

nesbitt

usrname_today wrote: »

Nail on the head. Thats what counselling is all about, feeling your way along the process so that you become your own adviser. Plus counselling is not just this 1 hour slot you turn up to once a week, you gotta work on yourself the days in between the sessions. Its like taking guitar lessons, the actual lesson will take about 30mins but the rest of the week, when you practice, is where the real progress is made. Some people turn up to counselling sessions and expect the counsellor to tell them what to do or give them advice, then get annoyed when that doesnt happen. They throw the dummy out of the cot and blame the counsellor. Those people go nowhere because they have a fundamental problem of expecting others to do their work for them.
Stick to it, but remember this is your ship so you're the one whos steering and calling the shots. You gotta put the "off the coach" work in aswell.

I must admit that I have been thinking alot since I started counselling so I guess I am naturally working through issues/the past between my sessions. I am going to stick with it and I am going to plan what I will talk about in my next session. I think the type of therapy I am attending will help me actually talk about issues in a safe environment. In so doing I can then focus on thinking of ways of helping myself. I may get further therapy that does feature advice on how to cope etc. I may get some self help books. I guess it depends on what is available to me and financial cost and my own budget. I feel lucky to have got a place with a councellor so I will avail of the service wisely and give it my all. Thanks.

LegacyUser

nesbitt wrote: »

I understand what you have described, and I suppose that is what I think will happen to me. I will pour my guts out and get to no conclusions other than what I already have come to over the years. I do need advice and guidance. Can you define the type of councelling you attend, would it be cognitive behaviour therapy or some such? Thanks

It's just a psychologist and she said that she uses different approaches with different people.

The talk and see where it gets you type of counselling suits certain issues. But other issues need other approaches.

My views on things are being challeneged. I've found out that I'm not fearful of doing things, just disorganised and haven't worked out a decent strategy for getting things done.

where are you based?

nesbitt

beeeleeelett wrote: »

It's just a psychologist and she said that she uses different approaches with different people.

The talk and see where it gets you type of counselling suits certain issues. But other issues need other approaches.

My views on things are being challeneged. I've found out that I'm not fearful of doing things, just disorganised and haven't worked out a decent strategy for getting things done.

where are you based?

Truthfully I have a number of issues to deal with. Some go back to my early teens through to recent years. I am based in Dublin North/West but have a car so can travel too. Thanks.

Perplexed4

Hi Nesbitt,
The research shows that the success or otherwise of therapy depends on the nature of the relationship between the counsellor and client not on the theoretical orientation. A good counsellor/therapist should feel like a good friend but one who lets you lean on them. If you feel the person you have enthrusted with the deepest secrets of your soul is burdening you with their cares then look elsewhere. But they should reveal themselves and answer your questions, and ask plenty, enough to make a reliable judgement. You need to be able to feel secure in the relationship and safe in the space. The counsellor ought reveal enough of themselves for you to know you can trust them. Unfortunately the person you have gone to appears to be practising psycodynamic therapy which is a practice in the exercise of power more than understanding, they will not say very much, they will not answer your questions, at least honestly, no wonder you came away confused, you had no info to base a judgement on. Psychoanalyticly oriented therapists frequently practice these techniques and there's a lot of them about so beware. They are likely to make you worse, bambozzling and confusing you.

http://www.alice-miller.com/articles_en.php?force=faq
http://www.davidsmail.info/talk99b.htm

Good Luck in your journey, remember you have to do your own thinking and live your own life and no therapist can replace the need for good friends while your doing so.:)

sambuka41

Perplexed4 wrote: »

Hi Nesbitt,
The research shows that the success or otherwise of therapy depends on the nature of the relationship between the counsellor and client not on the theoretical orientation.

The counsellor ought reveal enough of themselves for you to know you can trust them. Unfortunately the person you have gone to appears to be practising psycodynamic therapy which is a practice in the exercise of power more than understanding, they will not say very much, they will not answer your questions, at least honestly, no wonder you came away confused, you had no info to base a judgement on. Psychoanalyticly oriented therapists frequently practice these techniques and there's a lot of them about so beware. They are likely to make you worse, bambozzling and confusing you

Your right about the research showing that the therapeutic relationship being probably the most important aspect of therapy. And that does go for all schools of thought.

I am not sure i understand what you mean by reveal enough of themselves? Do you mean personally?? Cause I would completely disagree, its possible to have a meaningful connection/transference relationship with someone without ever revealing anything personal. What could they reveal about themselves that would indicate they are trustworthy???

You are completely wrong about psychodynamic therapy; it is not for everyone. And it really does depend on why you entered therapy; if someone is looking for a quick fix, or to have a particular symptom relieved then psychodynamic therapy is not the solution. But if you want real insight and reflection then it is the best.

The part that I have bolded is horrendous to be honest, to say that an entire school of practicing, educated people are liars is just ridiculous. People come on here looking for advice; anyone who happens to be attending such counsellors will go away from here thinking they are being lied to. :mad:
Its one thing to disagree with a particular method, or believe that its not effective but its irresponsible to call them liars (kind of insensitive actually as the OP has indicated that his/her therapist may be of this orientation)

For the OP I would say that its ok to ask to see their credentials, find out where they studied, and exactly what they studied, this may help you decide if this is the therapy for you. Its ok if its not, it just meant that it didn't suit you. You sound determined to stick with resolving your past so good luck with whatever road you choose to go down.

Perplexed4

The part that I have bolded is horrendous to be honest, to say that an entire school of practicing, educated people are liars is just ridiculous. People come on here looking for advice; anyone who happens to be attending such counsellors will go away from here thinking they are being lied to.

Little sensitive tonite aren't we sambuka. And no doubt your a practising psychodynamic therapist. The only people who consider it best are psychodynamic therapists and that statement in itself is a lie. No form of therapy is evidenced to be better than any other. The research is clear its the relationship that counts, no probably about it and the benefits of therapy are modest but people give over tremendous power when the trust a therapist, that trust should be based on some solid info obtained from the counsellor on what qualifies them to comment on your troubles. But psychodynamic therapists by training will not provide such info. Nor do they seek to form a trusting relationship with their clients. So if the client just wants to talk they will maybe find some benefit from getting things off their chest. But in their arrogance and sense of unfounded moral superiority, they think their perception is better than the clients about events of which they have no direct experience psychodynamic therapists can and do cause enourmous damage.
Child abuse, sexual or otherwise is horrendous, not my observation that unaccountable therapist might behave dishonestly, a fact I have evidence off. But in the lexicon of psychodynamic therapy everything the client says is regarded as a manifestation of the clients fantasies. If a person needs guidance and advice about their life they are not going to get it from a person who assumes their imagining things they have experienced.
Counselling to be helpful needs to be an equalitarian and friendly affair. People trained in psychodynamics, with its origins in psychiatry, your reference to symptoms gives you away, view themselves and their ideas as superior to their 'patients' who they think must be shown the light.
These attitudes delivered in a manipulative and fraudulant way can only damage people if they have any effect at all.:D

sambuka41

Perplexed4 wrote: »

Little sensitive tonite aren't we sambuka. And no doubt your a practising psychodynamic therapist.

Ha it was a little of a sensitive response alright!! I am not a practicing therapist, I have mentioned earlier in the thread that I am in the process of studying psychoanalytic theories (academically) and I am in psychoanalytic psychotherapy myself. Next year I am hoping to start the PHD in Counselling Psychology

Perplexed4 wrote: »

The only people who consider it best are psychodynamic therapists and that statement in itself is a lie. No form of therapy is evidenced to be better than any other.

There are some forms of therapy that are better suited to certain conditions than others. There is evidence for that, say CBT and specific phobias, or DBT and Borderline Personality Disorder. I suppose when I say best I mean most beneficial, or best suited.

Perplexed4 wrote: »

Nor do they seek to form a trusting relationship with their clients. So if the client just wants to talk they will maybe find some benefit from getting things off their chest. But in their arrogance and sense of unfounded moral superiority, they think their perception is better than the clients about events of which they have no direct experience psychodynamic therapists can and do cause enourmous damage.

Child abuse, sexual or otherwise is horrendous, not my observation that unaccountable therapist might behave dishonestly, a fact I have evidence off.

Where are you getting this from?? This is not at all an accurate representation of psychoanalysis. There isn't an ounce of judgement or moral superiority in psychoanalysis, kind of the opposite actually. Seriously it had it origins with Freud over 100 years ago where he was saying look we are humans we have desires and emotions stemming from childhood and occurring now, denying them is what causes you trouble.

Any therapist can do damage if they are not trained or sensitive enough to someones needs. There are plenty of quacks out there but I dont believe analysts are one of them. The statutory regulation that will hopefully be coming in the next few years should weed out the therapists that are crap and help people get empowered about the different types of therapy that's available to them.

Perplexed4 wrote: »

But in the lexicon of psychodynamic therapy everything the client says is regarded as a manifestation of the clients fantasies. If a person needs guidance and advice about their life they are not going to get it from a person who assumes their imagining things they have experienced.

I'm not sure you understand the way the term phantasy is used in psychoanalysis. It is not the same way as it is used in common language.It's not in reference to imagining things they have experienced. An analyst isn't really concerned about what can be verified as true outside of the room, its more what the person is saying and how this effected them. (actually as I write a lot of this it strikes me that most of these defences are true of nearly all the therapies, bar psychiatry, who although psychoanalysis originated from only in that Freud was a neurologist before beginning analysis, the two have very little in common today)(although just to say also that psychiatry does have its place and there are certain disorders that require a psychiatrist and not a talking therapy, like severe psychosis or schizophrenia)

Perplexed4 wrote: »

Counselling to be helpful needs to be an equalitarian and friendly affair. People trained in psychodynamics, with its origins in psychiatry, your reference to symptoms gives you away, view themselves and their ideas as superior to their 'patients' who they think must be shown the light.

Again the term symptom is not used the same as in psychiatry or even psychology, everyone of us have a symptom. It is how we deal with living in the social world, and if someone chooses to enter into analysis it is usually because there symptom is no longer working and is causing harm or distress.

Perplexed4 wrote: »

These attitudes delivered in a manipulative and fraudulant way can only damage people if they have any effect at all.:D

Anything delivered in a fraudulent way will cause harm, I don't see how psychoanalysis as a discipline does this. Some (crap) individual therapists may do this alright. Not everyone is cut out to be a therapist, and while not everyone is cut out to work in retail the former is quite dangerous and can have lasting effects, because when people enter into therapy they are quite vulnerable. My therapist (who is psychoanalytically trained) has told me that theory and books are there to inform how you practice, your own personality will determine the final product.

Thats is why I think presenting them with facts and information is more empowering than slamming an entire discipline because you had a bad experience or even because you don't agree with its basic principles.

*just to say that most psychoanalysis in Ireland today is heavily influenced by Jacques Lacan, who followed Freud but has taken psychoanalysis in a different direction, his theories are very interesting if you wanted to have a read.

nesbitt

I am not looking for a quick fix as I have tried in the past to use self help books. The facility I am attending is HSE regulated/funded so I would assume that the professionals who operate there are properly qualified. I am not worried that the person is a 'quack' in any way. There is a long waiting list for this counselling and I am lucky to be able to avail as I cannot afford private counselling. In my view private counselling is unregulated in this country.

I don't expect to build up a 'friendship' with a professional that I attend. The person listens to me thorougly and has pointed out some things to me that that I did not even realise I was revealing. I am not having difficulty revealing my issues/life to the professional but I do not view it as confiding in them in the usual way as with family/friend/acquaintaince. My counselling is a safe place where I do not have to fear, judgement, having my revelations cast up to me at a later date, or being given duff advice by people who don't know how to deal with themselves let alone me. That is why I dont not seek help from family/friends.

Also I think that professionals have to maintain a distance from their client for their own privacy too. When anyone deals with the general public they have to do that. I would be careful in my own profession in this way too, common sense really.

I don't feel as daunted as I did last week, and I am glad I posted my question on boards. I am getting insight and clarification that I could not get anywhere else. Thanks so much, all posts have been helpful.

nesbitt

I read some good information defining different types of counselling here http://www.mind.org.uk/help/medical_and_alternative_care/making_sense_of_counselling#whatis

Hope this helps anyone who is considering counselling and might be a bit daunted and confused.

miec

Hi Nesbitt

It sounds like you are on the way to building a good working relationship with your counsellor (although I would hazard a guess that they are a psychotherapist rather than counselling and yes as far as I am aware the mental health staff for the HSE have to be properly trained).

I myself have been a few therapists / counsellors and it has been different every time, most were good, one was not and another did not suit me. I find that in between sessions a huge amount of the work goes on, you are on a self discovery journey, scary but in my experience very empowering, also painful at times. I was lucky to be part of group therapy and witnessed the healing benefits not just in me but my fellow group members so you are doing the right thing,

I found reading M. Scott Peck's The Road less travelled gave me a good insight to the theraputic process as well as it being a self-help book.

nesbitt

miec wrote: »

Hi Nesbitt

It sounds like you are on the way to building a good working relationship with your counsellor (although I would hazard a guess that they are a psychotherapist rather than counselling and yes as far as I am aware the mental health staff for the HSE have to be properly trained).

I myself have been a few therapists / counsellors and it has been different every time, most were good, one was not and another did not suit me. I find that in between sessions a huge amount of the work goes on, you are on a self discovery journey, scary but in my experience very empowering, also painful at times. I was lucky to be part of group therapy and witnessed the healing benefits not just in me but my fellow group members so you are doing the right thing,

I found reading M. Scott Peck's The Road less travelled gave me a good insight to the theraputic process as well as it being a self-help book.

I must admit that I now realise that I am on a bit of a journey alright. I have been going over some stuff already this week and feel a bit clearer/calmer already. It is all a bit strange.
I note your reading recommendation, thanks. I am going to buy some books or see if they have them in local library.

Perplexed4

You are on a trip alright and I hope it goes well for you.
The counsellors working in the HSE aren't always fully qualified and frequently are in training but even the ones with certificates on the wall are capable of error. The mental health services are appalling and frequently do great damage to people, I personally know many such people and they counsellors/psychotherapists there are no exception.
Indeed a quite prominent and respected psychiatrist/psychotherapist advised me that in light of their collusion with psychiatry that people wouldn't receive appropriate therapy from a HSE counsellor. I felt insulted that he had dissed my assumption that these people could probably be trusted but subsequent research proved him to be right.
For a qualification is no guarantee that the person will listen in order to understand how you see yourself and your world. This is what I mean when I indicate they should be 'professional friends'. They might instead merely listen in order to prove their theories are correct.
You are right that private therapists are unregulated but so also are therapists working in the HSE. As such they are always unaccountable to any authority. There are ethical guidelines but because of their loyalty to their professional colleagues who assume that all accredited counsellors are well trained and therfore incapable of error. But these are the same people who would examine any complaint so getting the ethics enforced is well nigh impossible. So therapists are thus in an unregulated, unaccountable and unpoliced environment thus free to do almost anything they please. They may be more or less usefull to some or many people but there is no comeback if their not.
So I for one would be very wary at this stage about you I would trust with my most personal issues. I am currently on the look out for someone and have been for the past while but no one is or can give me the info I require to base a deccision on. I'd like someone who base their practice
on the work of Dorothy Rowe but I can't find such a person in this town. Still looking thou. Her books where a great help to me in my recovery from depression a few years ago but I have other issues that need addressing now.
It's good to talk.
Sambuka41: I think in your reply to me that your sort of illustrating the point I was making about psychoanalyists knowing better. I perfectly understand the use of the term phantasy and symptom and they mean precisely what I mean they say although within psychoanalytic cannon there are a great many extensions and extrapolations upon them.
However when I say phantasy means (usually) that people are imagining things thats true. Initially Freud accepted the reality of reports by his patients that they had been disturbed by Sexual abuse as children although he was wrong to extapolate upon this and hold the 'seduction' in youth as the ultimate cause of all 'mental distress'. However he retracted this belief because it wasn't profitable or socially acceptable to believe such in fin de seicle Venice. He decided to fold, and adopted the usual position which is that the victims where imagining things. He then went on to construct a sophisticated pseudo scientific theory around this victim blaming assertion and claimed that these 'fantasies' where 'wish fulfillments' ie, that these people desired to be abused.
The less said about Lacan the better. :eek: If you want any more info please ask.
Hope this is helpful. Good Luck Nesbitt, I'm not saying your in any immenent danger, you seem to have your feet on the ground, just that anyone in a counselling situation is in a vulnersble position and its best to be informed.:D

Snowie

if you want councilling to work for you... You talk all you want but if you bounce around the subjects that really bother you how do you fix the problems I think youle find the more you as a piatent work on your problems and get down into the nitty gritty of your life and why your there the more the councilor will intereact to you...

From personal experence.

nesbitt

Perplexed4 wrote: »

You are on a trip alright and I hope it goes well for you.
The counsellors working in the HSE aren't always fully qualified and frequently are in training but even the ones with certificates on the wall are capable of error. The mental health services are appalling and frequently do great damage to people, I personally know many such people and they counsellors/psychotherapists there are no exception.
Indeed a quite prominent and respected psychiatrist/psychotherapist advised me that in light of their collusion with psychiatry that people wouldn't receive appropriate therapy from a HSE counsellor. I felt insulted that he had dissed my assumption that these people could probably be trusted but subsequent research proved him to be right.
For a qualification is no guarantee that the person will listen in order to understand how you see yourself and your world. This is what I mean when I indicate they should be 'professional friends'. They might instead merely listen in order to prove their theories are correct.
You are right that private therapists are unregulated but so also are therapists working in the HSE. As such they are always unaccountable to any authority. There are ethical guidelines but because of their loyalty to their professional colleagues who assume that all accredited counsellors are well trained and therfore incapable of error. But these are the same people who would examine any complaint so getting the ethics enforced is well nigh impossible. So therapists are thus in an unregulated, unaccountable and unpoliced environment thus free to do almost anything they please. They may be more or less usefull to some or many people but there is no comeback if their not.
So I for one would be very wary at this stage about you I would trust with my most personal issues. I am currently on the look out for someone and have been for the past while but no one is or can give me the info I require to base a deccision on. I'd like someone who base their practice
on the work of Dorothy Rowe but I can't find such a person in this town. Still looking thou. Her books where a great help to me in my recovery from depression a few years ago but I have other issues that need addressing now.
It's good to talk.
Sambuka41: I think in your reply to me that your sort of illustrating the point I was making about psychoanalyists knowing better. I perfectly understand the use of the term phantasy and symptom and they mean precisely what I mean they say although within psychoanalytic cannon there are a great many extensions and extrapolations upon them.
However when I say phantasy means (usually) that people are imagining things thats true. Initially Freud accepted the reality of reports by his patients that they had been disturbed by Sexual abuse as children although he was wrong to extapolate upon this and hold the 'seduction' in youth as the ultimate cause of all 'mental distress'. However he retracted this belief because it wasn't profitable or socially acceptable to believe such in fin de seicle Venice. He decided to fold, and adopted the usual position which is that the victims where imagining things. He then went on to construct a sophisticated pseudo scientific theory around this victim blaming assertion and claimed that these 'fantasies' where 'wish fulfillments' ie, that these people desired to be abused.
The less said about Lacan the better. :eek: If you want any more info please ask.
Hope this is helpful. Good Luck Nesbitt, I'm not saying your in any immenent danger, you seem to have your feet on the ground, just that anyone in a counselling situation is in a vulnersble position and its best to be informed.:D

I kind of have to run with what counselling is available to me really. I now know what type of counselling it is 'Psychodynamic counselling' and that the counsellor is being purposely impersonal with me as a means to an end ie 'reflection'. I find this concept unsettling but at least now I can put a name on it and know what it is!. I already got a feeling out of nowhere to treat my counsellor as a trusted listener, a 'page the oracle' type of person who simply tells you unemotiionally the way it is. How to they do that? By drawing you out and you then reveal in the sessions. I now realise that I will in fact end up healing myself, through counselling. Hope I am making sense. If after a time span I find the counselling is unhelpful, I will seek to have a discussion about just that at the counselling facility but I am keeping an open mind.

I now know through reading this discussion the pros and cons of counselling and this is a great help to me. Thanks.

Maple

Perplexed4 wrote: »

Good Luck Nesbitt, I'm not saying your in any immenent danger, you seem to have your feet on the ground, just that anyone in a counselling situation is in a vulnersble position and its best to be informed.:D

Less of the scaremongering and hyperbole please.

Maple

nesbitt

Snow-Monkey wrote: »

if you want councilling to work for you... You talk all you want but if you bounce around the subjects that really bother you how do you fix the problems I think youle find the more you as a piatent work on your problems and get down into the nitty gritty of your life and why your there the more the councilor will intereact to you...

From personal experence.

+1 snow monkey. I went in to the session already made up my mind to tell my 'story' honestly and not 'window dress' situations/issues I was discussing. On balance my counsellor is interacting with me and commenting, now that I think back over the two sessions I have had. I was doing 95% of the talking but then that is the nature of the therapy... That takes a bit of getting used to, usually when you talk about a problem with someone, there is discussion and seeking a solution. Counselling is different in so far as you can really reveal in a safe environment. This is key for me as I am done with confiding in people in my real life, only so far and it does not help me.

sambuka41

Perplexed4 wrote: »

Sambuka41: I think in your reply to me that your sort of illustrating the point I was making about psychoanalyists knowing better.

Again I am not a psychoanalyst but if I were, by your logic the only way I could prove I didn't know better is NOT to point out your misinterpretations??

Perplexed4 wrote: »

He then went on to construct a sophisticated pseudo scientific theory around this victim blaming assertion and claimed that these 'fantasies' where 'wish fulfillments' ie, that these people desired to be abused.

This is absolutely absurd, I'm not going to debate this further with you but I wanted to point out how this is not true. There is no blame, no moral judgments in psychoanalysis or any other type of counselling, that would completely defeat the purpose.

I just wanted to make that clear for anyone else who is coming on looking for advice and information.

Perplexed4

Sambuka41 I have no doubt you honestly believe in your cause but your loyalty to it seems to be biasing your opinion. You merely rejected what I said you didn't provide any evidence to rebut it. You seem to me to be incredibly naive about the whole mental health enteprise. Sandor Ferenzi, who was regarded as the greatest practising clinician of psychoanalysis in the 1920's and 1930's had this to say.
"Why should the patient place himself blindly in the hands of the doctor? Isn't it possible, indeed probable, that a doctor who has not been well analyzed (after all, who is well analyzed?) will nor cure the patient but raather will use her or him to play out his own neurotic or psychotic needs? As proof and justification of this suspicion, I remember certain statements Freud made to me...He said that patients are only riffraff. The only thing patients were good for is to help the analyst make a living and to provide material for theory. It is clear we cannot help them."
If you don't find this statement like so much of psychosanalysis loaded with judgement, well! Not all psychoanalyst's earn my dipleasure, Boris Cyrulnik for instance comes to mind as a psychoanalyst of some respect but his work pays little regard for psychodynamic's, Other's who came out of this movement I admire would be Alice Miller, RD Laing, John Bowlby and Jeffrey Masson whose The Assault on truth gives the facts about Freuds abandonment of his patients truth, patients who were victims of abuse where dismissed as imagining things and blamed for their fate. The victim blaming culture is alive and well and in seeking assistance for life problems, emotional and psychological difficulties it can be very hard to avoid. So my advice is to be questioning and discerning in who you trust with your most private thoughts and feelings.

dudara

@Perplexed4 and sambuka41 - This thread is not for you to discuss different approaches. This thread exists to help the OP.

Thread is being closed at the OP's request.

dudara