Why has the €20 Billion deficit not reduced ?.

Rabidlamb

Were what, 2 or 3 years into austerity & according to comments on the radio yesterday we are still taking in €30 billion & spending €50 billion.
What happened to the €3 billion savings that were being made last budget & the ones before it.
Why do we seem to be getting nowhere ?.

fliball123

Rabidlamb wrote: »

Were what, 2 or 3 years into austerity & according to comments on the radio yesterday we are still taking in €30 billion & spending €50 billion.
What happened to the €3 billion savings that were being made last budget & the ones before it.
Why do we seem to be getting nowhere ?.

Numerous reasons the interest on the loans to repaid has to be factored in and PS pay increments have gobbled up the majority of what was saved via PS wage cuts. Also the increase in taxes has had the opposite to the desired effect. People are spending less on goods so not as much made in that type of tax and with people losing their jobs and emmigrating Income tax has stayed static even after the tax being increased.

Cookie_Monster

because no one in government has the balls to stand up and make the required cuts to PS pay, welfare, the HSE and all the rest of the waste.

ei.sdraob

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

because no one in government has the balls to stand up and make the required cuts to PS pay, welfare, the HSE and all the rest of the waste.

And they lied, but no worry apparently we turned a corner (again)

Rabidlamb

fliball123 wrote: »

Numerous reasons the interest on the loans to repaid has to be factored in and PS pay increments have gobbled up the majority of what was saved via PS wage cuts. Also the increase in taxes has had the opposite to the desired effect. People are spending less on goods so not as much made in that type of tax and with people losing their jobs and emmigrating Income tax has stayed static even after the tax being increased.

Say what now, are the grade increases still in effect, were these not stalled as part of the CPA.
If not the whole thing's a joke, on us.

fliball123

Rabidlamb wrote: »

Say what now, are the grade increases still in effect, were these not stalled as part of the CPA.
If not the whole thing's a joke, on us.

No but within the grades annual increments are ongoing costing accoring to Minister Noonan 1/4 of a billion a year...So we started the austerity what 4 years ago so the wage has crept back up by about a billion...So say your a grade 5 and your salary is set between 60 and 70k..Anyone on say 60k will continue to get their annual increments until they reach their ceiling

Dont turn it in to a PS bashing thread but thats part of the reason on top of tax in this country reaching and surpassing the point of diminishing return..For tax payers the statement blood from a stone is possible the most apt. Also add in the increase of people joining the dole queue 300k

spank_inferno

Well it is reducing, however the pace is slow.
I think I seen figures projecting a defecit for 2011 of 16-18 billion?

In a nutshell, spending has not really reduced by any major amount.
Revenues are depressed because people are either not earning or earning somewhat less and the margins of household budgets are tighter.

The governments tax raising efforts will be slightly negated by lower VAT returns from a populace with less money to spend

fliball123

spank_inferno wrote: »

Well it is reducing, however the pace is slow.
I think I seen figures projecting a defecit for 2011 of 16-18 billion?

In a nutshell, spending has not really reduced by any major amount.
Revenues are depressed because people are either not earning or earning somewhat less and the margins of household budgets are tighter.

The governments tax raising efforts will be slightly negated by lower VAT returns from a populace with less money to spend

Its currently 18 billion dispite 3/4 increase in taxes and the cuts in both ps pay and social welfare...We have stipped out about 5 times that out of the ecconomy

fliball123

Rabidlamb wrote: »

Were what, 2 or 3 years into austerity & according to comments on the radio yesterday we are still taking in €30 billion & spending €50 billion.
What happened to the €3 billion savings that were being made last budget & the ones before it.
Why do we seem to be getting nowhere ?.

Just to put the full picture on this where money should be saved

We are 4 years now with increased income tax (should be taking in more money)

We have increased VAT and introduced other taxes such as carbon tax and USC

We have seen 1 paycut in the Public sector pay about 7%

We have seen about 15/20 quid cut off the dole


To off set the above we have had 4 years of pay increments in the PS costing a billion

We have to pay back the interest on the loans for the banks and for the sovereign debt I think I seen 2/3 billion bandied about here could be wrong

We are losing tax payers to the dole 300k in the last 4 years so decrease in tax and also an increase in social welfare payments

And of course with taking extra money being taken away from tax payers this means less money being spent in the ecomony so even with the increase in VAT it is not bringing in much..

So in total we have downed the deficit by 2 billion in 4 years...Is it worth the effort?

Rabidlamb

fliball123 wrote: »

No but within the grades annual increments are ongoing costing accoring to Minister Noonan 1/4 of a billion a year...So we started the austerity what 4 years ago so the wage has crept back up by about a billion...So say your a grade 5 and your salary is set between 60 and 70k..Anyone on say 60k will continue to get their annual increments until they reach their ceiling

fliball123 wrote: »

To off set the above we have had 4 years of pay increments in the PS costing a billion

Right this has set a flame under me, is there any member of the PS who can come on here & justify why incremental increases weren't stopped as part of the CPA.
I would be ashamed to accept pay rises from a bankrupt state with 14% unemployment.
I probably can't use the term dandy highwaymen so I wont.

henryporter

From a quick read of the IMF EU Program of Financial Support (I should have done this sooner!) it appears that the logic being applied vis Public Sector Reform is reduction of numbers by natural retirement as opposed to rocking any boats whatsoever. The Croke Park Agreement seems to have dealt with freezing pay scale increments by not mentioning the issue at all, i.e. a fudge. Add to the fact that no mention of the issue of incremental pay increases exists in the IMF EU PFS document and it becomes obvious that the fudged reforms touted by this and the previous administration can not and will not work. The only real appetite for imposing reform seems to be in the areas of property taxes, water taxes, VAT increases, increase on retirement ages; in fact basically anything that has to do with the poor buggers in the middle who have no unions to stand up for them.

fliball123

Rabidlamb wrote: »

Right this has set a flame under me, is there any member of the PS who can come on here & justify why incremental increases weren't stopped as part of the CPA.
I would be ashamed to accept pay rises from a bankrupt state with 14% unemployment.
I probably can't use the term thieving scum so I wont.

They will tell you its part of their terms and conditions

sollar

fliball123 wrote: »

No but within the grades annual increments are ongoing costing accoring to Minister Noonan 1/4 of a billion a year...So we started the austerity what 4 years ago so the wage has crept back up by about a billion...So say your a grade 5 and your salary is set between 60 and 70k..Anyone on say 60k will continue to get their annual increments until they reach their ceiling

Dont turn it in to a PS bashing thread but thats part of the reason on top of tax in this country reaching and surpassing the point of diminishing return..For tax payers the statement blood from a stone is possible the most apt. Also add in the increase of people joining the dole queue 300k

NEWSFLASH: The deficit is not reducing because austerity does not solve these problems.

BTW Increments would have been paid anyway (regardless of cuts) and are being offset by retiring staff that are not being replaced due to the employment embargo. So the 1/4 billion figure is not accurate.

In normal times people retire and new staff are employed to replace them along the chain (guess what... that costs money). Savings are being made now because these staff are not being hired... because the rest of us are picking up the work (saving the PS a fortune). The people that make the decisions know this.


Stop taking your info from the Sunday Independent they are not a good source for accuracy... they will spin the PS in as bad a light as they can.

fliball123

sollar wrote: »

NEWSFLASH: The deficit is not reducing because austerity does not solve these problems.

BTW Increments would have been paid anyway (regardless of cuts) and are being offset by retiring staff that are not being replaced due to the employment embargo. So the 1/4 billion figure is not accurate.

In normal times people retire and new staff are employed to replace them along the chain (guess what... that costs money). Savings are being made now because these staff are not being hired... because the rest of us are picking up the work (saving the PS a fortune). The people that make the decisions know this.


Stop taking your info from the Sunday Independent they are not a good source for accuracy... they will spin the PS in as bad a light as they can.

So these people leaving dont get a pension so? The 1/4 of a billion is from Noonan if you have argument with it I suggest you mail him about it, but I am sure he would know more than You and I about it.

The question for everyone outside the PS is why these increments are being paid..Its plain wrong

As for picking up work from other people leaving welcome to the world of the private sector...You wont get any sympathy for having to do an honest days work for an honest days pay...and in money terms after the people who have left and have got their golden handshake and golden pension then we have re-employ them as a contractor due to the embargo we are forking out a hell of a lot more.

What info have I taken from the Indo I have never read the paper in my life...If you have question talk to the minister

sollar

fliball123 wrote: »

We have seen 1 paycut in the Public sector pay about 7%

So did the pension levy not save money on the deficit considering if it wasn't implemented the pensions were going to be paid out anyway?

fliball123 wrote: »

To off set the above we have had 4 years of pay increments in the PS costing a billion?

Perhaps you can now provide the figures on money saved due to non replacement of staff in the PS. Or do you only gather one sided data??

sollar

fliball123 wrote: »

So these people leaving dont get a pension so?

You don't seem to be able to grasp this.

People retiring were getting the full pension anyway before or after the pension levy.

Yes the figure is 250 million. Its nothing new... increments have been paid for decades Noonan knows this. But Noonan also knows that we are saving him millions by taking up the work of retiring staff. This is a saving conditional on the CPA remaining in place.

fliball123

sollar wrote: »

So did the pension levy not save money on the deficit considering if it wasn't implemented the pensions were going to be paid out anyway?




Perhaps you can now provide the figures on money saved due to non replacement of staff in the PS. Or do you only gather one sided data??

What are you on about...Its obvious if someone has lef the ps in the last 4 years they went one of two places either the dole so we are still paying for them and they left with a nice golden handshake or to get their pension a nice golden pension with a nice golden handshake and the possibility of being rehired as a contractor due to the recruitment freeze (have a look at the teaching arrangement) So no there has been little savings made money wise..I am not saying you are not improving in some areas..As for the levy it was long over due..You should have to pay your pensions yourself ..

And if you look I looked at what has increased over the last number of years and I have shown why 4 years down the line we are down from a 20 bill to 18bill even do we have taken about 5 times that out of the economy..You just keep those blinkers on there kid

InigoMontoya

Rabidlamb wrote: »

Right this has set a flame under me, is there any member of the PS who can come on here & justify why incremental increases weren't stopped as part of the CPA.
I would be ashamed to accept pay rises from a bankrupt state with 14% unemployment.
I probably can't use the term thieving scum so I wont.

I work as a researcher in a university so I come under the PS heading. I don't get increments (though naturally I have been subject to the pay cut and levies) and my job depends on my work being good enough to attract funding for another project.

So, while I'm not arguing that increments shouldn't be stopped, perhaps you should think twice before throwing around terms like "thieving scum" on a blanket basis.

dlofnep

The deficit is reduced, to €7.8 billion for H1 (down €1 billion) - projecting (give or take) an annual deficit of about €15.6 billion. The problem however is that the funding of Anglo-Irish and Irish Nationwide are included in the deficit (€3 billion invested in January).

So regardless of any austerity measures, it is practically impossible on paper to reduce our deficit.

I'll let ye all get back to blaming public servants now.

fliball123

InigoMontoya wrote: »

I work as a researcher in a university so I come under the PS heading. I don't get increments (though naturally I have been subject to the pay cut and levies) and my job depends on my work being good enough to attract funding for another project.

So, while I'm not arguing that increments shouldn't be stopped, perhaps you should think twice before throwing around terms like "thieving scum" on a blanket basis.

But do you not see the hypocrosy of these increments people are at the pin of their collar and instead of keeping people in the ps on the same wage (bar the 7% cut) the gov deem it nessacery to introduce water tax and property tax....Can you not understand why there is such outrage and frustration?

sollar

fliball123 wrote: »

What are you on about...Its obvious if someone has lef the ps in the last 4 years they went one of two places either the dole so we are still paying for them and they left with a nice golden handshake or to get their pension a nice golden pension with a nice golden handshake and the possibility of being rehired as a contractor due to the recruitment freeze (have a look at the teaching arrangement) So no there has been little savings made money wise..I am not saying you are not improving in some areas..As for the levy it was long over due..You should have to pay your pensions yourself ..

And if you look I looked at what has increased over the last number of years and I have shown why 4 years down the line we are down from a 20 bill to 18bill even do we have taken about 5 times that out of the economy..You just keep those blinkers on there kid

The answer does not lie with the PS. Even if the increments were stopped what would that do the the deficit?

I don't have blinkers on. Our pension levy and paycuts saved more than the increments are costing. The non replacemet of staff is saving money also.

The problem in this country is UNEMPLOYMENT.... not the PS.

fliball123

dlofnep wrote: »

The deficit is reduced, to €7.8 billion for H1 (down €1 billion) - projecting (give or take) an annual deficit of about €15.6 billion. The problem however is that the funding of Anglo-Irish and Irish Nationwide are included in the deficit (€3 billion invested in January).

So regardless of any austerity measures, it is practically impossible on paper to reduce our deficit.

I'll let ye all get back to blaming public servants now.

Look at my first few posts I said I didnt want this to desend into PS bashing there are a number of reasons why the figure is not decreasing that quickly and unfortunately one of those reasons are because of PS increments..I also said tax is at the point of diminishing returns aswell as the interest that has to be paid on the bank bailout...

ParkRunner

fliball123 wrote: »

But do you not see the hypocrosy of these increments people are at the pin of their collar and instead of keeping people in the ps on the same wage (bar the 7% cut) the gov deem it nessacery to introduce water tax and property tax....Can you not understand why there is such outrage and frustration?

I have no proposals to change the current arrangements in relation to the payment of increments as they would disproportionately affect the lower paid staff in the public service.

Link

Seeing as increments are not on the agenda you can keep huffing and puffing but the solution lies elsewhere, especially in job creation rather than cuts

sollar

fliball123 wrote: »

But do you not see the hypocrosy of these increments people are at the pin of their collar and instead of keeping people in the ps on the same wage (bar the 7% cut) the gov deem it nessacery to introduce water tax and property tax....Can you not understand why there is such outrage and frustration?

Thats the fairest way. Everyone should pay not just public servants so you don't have to pay a property tax. Brian lenihan pointed out that the average paycut across the private sector was less than the public sector.

And don't come back with the 450,000 got a 100% pay cut etc etc. If you didn't lose your job thats got FA to do with you.

InigoMontoya

fliball123 wrote: »

But do you not see the hypocrosy of these increments people are at the pin of their collar and instead of keeping people in the ps on the same wage (bar the 7% cut) the gov deem it nessacery to introduce water tax and property tax....Can you not understand why there is such outrage and frustration?

As I already said, I'm not defending the ongoing payment of increments.

I do think that saying people should be ashamed to accept them is a bit unrealistic. I'd be slightly bemused if I was getting increments at this stage, but I wouldn't be ashamed.

Edit: Also, I doubt that the "necessity" for water and property charges would disappear if increments were put on hold immediately.

sollar

Rabidlamb wrote: »

Right this has set a flame under me, is there any member of the PS who can come on here & justify why incremental increases weren't stopped as part of the CPA.
I would be ashamed to accept pay rises from a bankrupt state with 14% unemployment.
I probably can't use the term thieving scum so I wont.

Here is what Mr M Noonan said re increments:

'Increments within the Public Service vary in terms of timing, cost and application both within and across the various sectors of the Public Service and estimates of cost are of necessity, tentative.
It has been estimated that the annual cost in a full year of increments would be around €250 million. However, significantly reduced recruitment and higher numbers on the maxima of scales will mean that this cost will reduce in the coming years and will be affected by other factors. These include retirements, voluntary redundancies, number reductions, recruitment rates and the numbers of employees reaching the maximum of the scale, which cannot be quantified.
No specific provision is made in the financial allocations to public service bodies as they are required to meet the cost within their allocations.
Suspending increments would affect some public servants but would have no effect on others. Generally, incremental scales are longer for lower paid staff than for higher. Accordingly a higher proportion of lower paid including front line staff would be affected by a suspension of increments.
I have no proposals to change the current arrangements in relation to the payment of increments as they would disproportionately affect the lower paid staff in the public service.'

fliball123

sollar wrote: »

The answer does not lie with the PS. Even if the increments were stopped what would that do the the deficit?

I don't have blinkers on. Our pension levy and paycuts saved more than the increments are costing. The non replacemet of staff is saving money also.

The problem in this country is UNEMPLOYMENT.... not the PS.

Its not just unemplyment sollar and its not just PS pay I accept that...The non replacement of staff has forced the PS to get contractors in at over inflated money..There is not as much saved as you think..I will give you an example hypotetical

Say there are 300k people in the ps on say an average of 50k so we are paying out 15 billion
say 100k of these people are trhough natural wastage..So either they join the dole or get their pension

So the facts would have us believe we are now saving 1/3 of this 15 billion cost which is 5billion

But the fact is that the majority of these 100k have got a golden handshake averaging say 50k each so thats the 5 billion for that year wiped out. and then you have to factor in what it costs to pay this pension or the social welfare aswell as factor in how much not in paying OT to other staff picking up the slack but also the fact that the likes of teachers are being rehired on overly generous contractor rates

So the net effect means we saving little if nothing at all

So stop dole bashing

fliball123

EF wrote: »

Link

Seeing as increments are not on the agenda you can keep huffing and puffing but the solution lies elsewhere, especially in job creation rather than cuts

EF there has to be an overall solution do you deem it fair that the people getting welfare get a cut and people paying thus said increments will be bent over and ridden solid with increased taxes so that 300k odd can keep the terms and conditions...Do you not see the disparity in this..It all needs to be cut together...If not the balance between the PS and the rest of the country will be furthered

fliball123

sollar wrote: »

Thats the fairest way. Everyone should pay not just public servants so you don't have to pay a property tax. Brian lenihan pointed out that the average paycut across the private sector was less than the public sector.

And don't come back with the 450,000 got a 100% pay cut etc etc. If you didn't lose your job thats got FA to do with you.

How is it fair that a person who has bought a house paid 30/40k in stamp duty then they lose a % of their wage aswell as some of thier hours the house they bought is not worth half of what they owe and they want to tax that...yeah thats so fair isnt it...Sure give yourself another increment there good kid

Liam Byrne

sollar wrote: »

Brian lenihan pointed out that the average paycut across the private sector was less than the public sector.

Is there a credible source for that ? Lenihan would - and did - say anything, regardless of whether it was true.

And was he talking percentages or actual amounts ?

Someone on €15,000 a year that got dropped to €12,000 is "only" losing €3,000 compared to someone on those salaries x 10; percentage-wise they've both still lost 10%, but the €3,000 loss for the former is a lot more essential to them and the economy than the person who's still on €120,000 and didn't need the extra in the first place.

dlofnep

fliball123 wrote: »

Look at my first few posts I said I didnt want this to desend into PS bashing there are a number of reasons why the figure is not decreasing that quickly and unfortunately one of those reasons are because of PS increments..I also said tax is at the point of diminishing returns aswell as the interest that has to be paid on the bank bailout...

But it has reduced, by €1 billion if you do not include the funding of the banking sector.