third level fees

blahfckingblah

http://www.thejournal.ie/are-third-level-fees-looming-187801-Jul2011/

a possible return to third level fees. if this happens it will have the knock on effect of even higher rates of emigration and larger dole queues. this government surely must see that the drawbacks of this move would outweigh the benefits. craziness.

RMD

They need to use their heads here. I wont be able to afford fees, so I wont be able to get skilled qualifications and get a well paying job. Instead I'll end up more than likely in some minimum wage paying unskilled job for the next 10-20 years until I'm lucky to get a good position down to experience.

The extra income tax they'd take in over 10-20 years due to having a well paying job would completely outweigh the money they'll spend on putting me through college.

cavedave

RMD

The extra income tax they'd take in over 10-20 years due to having a well paying job would completely outweigh the money they'll spend on putting me through college.

Is that an argument to only pay fees for courses that lead to well paying jobs?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Suryavarman

To expect taxpayers to keep funding third level education is a joke. I don't know if you've ever been to college before OP but if you had you would notice students sitting in the student bar day after day never bothering to go to class. You would notice that for some strange reason the first class on a Thursday morning(student night being a Wednesday) being strangely empty due to all the hangovers. You would notice apathetic attitudes towards class work and attendance in general. This is down to students not having to foot the bill for their education. In fairness this is only a minority of students but still a large group.

Surely for highly motivated students, the prospect of higher paying and more secure jobs would warrant paying the fees. If they weren't motivated enough to pay the fees then maybe they're better off not going to college.

Then there is the system itself. As Permabear pointed out, too often do we have people pursuing degrees that mean nothing in the real world. Then there are other degrees that simply aren't challenging enough. From my own experiences I have noticed lecturers picking and choosing when to go to class. Surely these standards are not what we want from our education system.

Many people talk about running government like a business. This sentiment should be applied to 3rd level education by literally running it like a business and just privatising the whole thing.

amacachi

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I'm pretty torn on this train of thought tbh. It's ridiculous to fund every educational whim someone may have but I also hate the idea of government influencing education at this level.

Have you got a link to those Trinity grade figures?

blahfckingblah

yea in DIT at the moment so the student bar thing doesnt really apply but i agree with what your saying to an extent, thats why i believe ranther than charging everyone or no one, it could be more beneficial to take other factors like grades or attendance into account, im just tossing about ideas here in my head but that would apply a greater work incentive whilst rooting out the wasters

Manach

Might some form of loan system instead make sense, which would allow the student to borrow to pursue their courses? As someone who is a part-time paying student, one values what one has to pay cold hard cash for, an education.

blahfckingblah

deferring the cost is still going to stop people from being able to afford , me for instance haha

tayto lover

I think that college bars should be a thing of the past.If they are preventing students from attending classes and studying then they are going against the whole purpose of education. We are not sending our children to college to drink. The colleges should know better than to allow bars on their premises.

amacachi

blahfckingblah wrote: »

deferring the cost is still going to stop people from being able to afford , me for instance haha

You don't plan to do anything afterwards?

blahfckingblah

yes but im realistic enough to know that when im freshly qualified it will be hard to get a job initially therefore possibly unemployed, then if im lucky neough to get a job as a new graduate these days the pay will be horrendus, the other option is emmigration which will cost a fair bit initially aswell, so it really is a long term debt in many cases.

Suryavarman

tayto lover wrote: »

I think that college bars should be a thing of the past.If they are preventing students from attending classes and studying then they are going against the whole purpose of education. We are not sending our children to college to drink. The colleges should know better than to allow bars on their premises.

I think that may be going a bit too far. I'm sure for the most part the bars do provide a stream of revenue for the college helping to subsidise the cost of tuition. There's also nothing wrong with students having a pint at lunch to celebrate a birthday or something similar.

blahfckingblah wrote: »

yes but im realistic enough to know that when im freshly qualified it will be hard to get a job initially therefore possibly unemployed, then if im lucky neough to get a job as a new graduate these days the pay will be horrendus, the other option is emmigration which will cost a fair bit initially aswell, so it really is a long term debt in many cases.

But if the taxpayer pays for it then those situations will still apply. If you end up unemployed then the degree will to an extent have been in vein. If you emigrate then the taxpayer has paid for your degree and got nothing in return, thereby refuting the argument that "free fees" pay for themselves.

Outkast_IRE

Im going back to college next year after completing a apprenticeship and i for one would have no problem paying fees as long as a proper loan facility was set up where i can pay them back after i finish my course.

blahfckingblah

Suryavarman wrote: »

But if the taxpayer pays for it then those situations will still apply. If you end up unemployed then the degree will to an extent have been in vein. If you emigrate then the taxpayer has paid for your degree and got nothing in return, thereby refuting the argument that "free fees" pay for themselves.

initially unemployed, i know im not going to walk into a job after college who does these days? and when i do get a job il have to pay for my education out of my starting wage? not everyone emigrates. not everyone will get jobs in their qualification, thats a fact but why are people being educated in these sectors? its not an easy situation at all to negotiate.

nice_guy80

there are certain 'professional' courses that should carry higher fees on the basis that you are more likely to get a job in that profession

Medicine - any graduate from medicine should have to work for 3 years in the Irish health system as it costs a fortune to train them and then they bugger off to the Uk or Australia.
Law
Teaching
Acctuary
Vetinery
certain business courses.

the other thing is the inflated salaries of the people running Third Level Colleges and the inflated pay of the teaching staff at many universities and ITs

Valmont

I'm finishing up my fifth year of third level education for a grand total of 27,000 euro spent. Looking at my job opportunities now makes me wish I sank my time and money into carpentry or welding or anything else that is actually useful to people. Oh well, onto a Phd I suppose.

Nijmegen

The OECD reported on free fees and pointed out that it didn't open up access to higher education for poorer people. This is a generally accepted fact.

Introduce a deferred loan system, taking a % of salary over a certain threshold, for students and give waivers and grants to poorer students through means testing.

Otherwise free fees are just a government giveaway that we don't want to give up.

Cavehill Red

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Personally, I'd love to see Aisling funded to study Medieval Celtic Studies. When we start putting a monetary value on preserving our heritage and our understanding of where we came from, and further, when we deem that heritage and understanding to be unworthy of the small monetary value we put on it, then we are truly lost as a nation and should just ask Steve Jobs to make an offer on the nation.

I entirely appreciate that the marketplace wants to see more Java programmers, etc. Well, would those industries not consider offering a few scholarships or even funding courses in their entirety? I mean, if we're going to go down the road that education must be solely for the benefit of producing good little workers that companies need, then the companies are benefitting, so why don't they share the cost?

I'd like to think that universities offer much more than that. I'd be the first to suggest that there are courses that I find somewhat risible, but I don't see why I should be the arbiter of what other people consider legitimate education. Nor do I see why anyone else in here is qualified to judge either. Surely the people best qualified to make such assessments are the universities themselves.

Suryavarman

blahfckingblah wrote: »

initially unemployed, i know im not going to walk into a job after college who does these days? and when i do get a job il have to pay for my education out of my starting wage? not everyone emigrates. not everyone will get jobs in their qualification, thats a fact but why are people being educated in these sectors? its not an easy situation at all to negotiate.

The longer you are out of college and not in a relevant job the less money you will earn and maybe the less chance of getting a job in the career you want and therefore the less return the taxpayer gets on it's investment. If people had to pay for their education then maybe they would focus on courses that would give them a better chance in the workforce. Having to pay could also have the unintended consequence of people doing better in their course by working harder and in turn earn them a higher paying job.

Yes I would imagine you would have to pay out of your starting wage. This isn't as bad as it would seem though. Using the information from the griffith college website here:

http://www.gcd.ie/assets/Uploads/pdfs/Fees/fees_July_2011/Full-Time-Undergraduate.pdf

you see that an Irish person will pay €4,950 a year for 3 years in the hons business degree. This will amount to a €15,000(rounded off) loan. Presuming it was repaid over a period of ten years at 5% interest, the total amount repayable would be €22,500. This works out at €2,250 a year. If you were to start off on €25,000 a year you would be earning €4,250 a year more after paying for the loan than you would be earning if you were working a minimum wage job. Now obviously not every course is this amount nor are all wages at this level. This goes to show that paying for a college degree isn't that bad.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I entirely appreciate that the marketplace wants to see more Java programmers, etc. Well, would those industries not consider offering a few scholarships or even funding courses in their entirety? I mean, if we're going to go down the road that education must be solely for the benefit of producing good little workers that companies need, then the companies are benefitting, so why don't they share the cost?

Some businesses do offer scholarships for high performing students. Technically businesses do pay the cost of college by offering higher wages to graduates.

The Volt

First of all, let's get one thing straight. 'Free education' doesn't exist at 3rd level across the board. €2,000 is the figure that's keeping a lot of people from either entering college in the first place or finishing degrees completely. I don't usually agree with Permabear but he's completely right in saying that the taxpayer should expect a return from funding 3rd level education.

The government is apparently €500 million short every year for what they need to fund education and yes, that is a problem that can't be ignored. However, it’s not some trivial thing we’re talking about here, education is the key to allowing citizens to participate actively in society. The notion that sometime soon, education may only be available to the very rich is a sad one.

Cavehill Red

Suryavarman wrote: »

Some businesses do offer scholarships for high performing students. Technically businesses do pay the cost of college by offering higher wages to graduates.

There are no more scholarships that I can see for STEM courses than there are historical busaries for traditional humanities courses. As I said, if we're going down this road that universities should be churning out wage slaves for businesses, then it seems fair to me that the businesses benefiting from that put their money in up front in a significant way.

Technically, businesses do NOT pay the cost of college by offering higher wages to graduates. They pay higher wages in return for more skilled tasks performed by the employee. Paying the cost of college would be simply that - fees and living expenses up front, in return for a commitment to a contract of employment following geaduation.

Suryavarman

Cavehill Red wrote: »

There are no more scholarships that I can see for STEM courses than there are historical busaries for traditional humanities courses. As I said, if we're going down this road that universities should be churning out wage slaves for businesses, then it seems fair to me that the businesses benefiting from that put their money in up front in a significant way.

Maybe if we had a proper fee paying system then there would be more scholarships on offer in these areas.

Why on earth should businesses have to pay up front? What if the students drop out of college?

Technically, businesses do NOT pay the cost of college by offering higher wages to graduates. They pay higher wages in return for more skilled tasks performed by the employee. Paying the cost of college would be simply that - fees and living expenses up front, in return for a commitment to a contract of employment following geaduation.

People go to college to learn these skills, they are then compensated for these for these skills through higher wages. So yes businesses do technically pay for college.

Once again I ask, why should businesses have to pay up front? What if the student turns out to be completely useless and is no use to the business. In that situation everyone loses, the student has a degree in an area they are incompetent in and the business is out of pocket for a useless degree. Why shouldn't the student have to pay for their living expenses out of a part-time job?

blahfckingblah

Suryavarman wrote: »

If people had to pay for their education then maybe they would focus on courses that would give them a better chance in the workforce.

that also implys that there are sufficient jobs in the country which there are not and its impossible to focus on jobs with a better chance of getting a job, the trade thats booming today could be in strife tomorrow.
theres no doubt that less people will enter 3rd level education as a result.

Suryavarman

blahfckingblah wrote: »

that also implys that there are sufficient jobs in the country which there are not and its impossible to focus on jobs with a better chance of getting a job, the trade thats booming today could be in strife tomorrow.
theres no doubt that less people will enter 3rd level education as a result.

The reason there is no jobs in this country is because the government destroyed the economy. In a few years hopefully the economy will have recovered and the jobs will return. In the mean time one could emigrate for a couple of years before returning to settle down. This obviously isn't an ideal situation but it does have some positives in that it allows you to see the world and you might pick up a foreign language that will help your career in later years.

The Volt

Suryavarman wrote: »

The reason there is no jobs in this country is because the government destroyed the economy. In a few years hopefully the economy will have recovered and the jobs will return. In the mean time one could emigrate for a couple of years before returning to settle down. This obviously isn't an ideal situation but it does have some positives in that it allows you to see the world and you might pick up a foreign language that will help your career in later years.

There's no justification for the youth, the future etc emigrating but that's the result of Fianna Fail's domination

southsiderosie

Universities should have fees. Students should have skin in the game. Loans should be readily available, as should means tested financial aid, but students should have some financial stake in their education.
But...

1) There should be definite limits on administration costs as a percentage of the budget, and the faculty wages should better reflect those of peer institutions in other countries.

2) Fees should definitely be higher in medical services, law, and other high earning areas.

3) There needs to be more educational focus on the 10-18yo age group to ensure that those who do not go to university are nonetheless well equipped to enter the job market and become productive citizens. This may mean more focus on literacy and basic skills for younger children, and an earlier shift into vocational training for older children. This may also help keep teenage boys in school longer.

4) Universities need to do more to attract private donations to provide fellowships, research grants, and lab space for STEM subjects. There isn't the culture of both personal and institutional philanthropy in Ireland as there is in the US, but given that there are so many American companies in Ireland that are used to corporate giving and university partnerships, I think this is a heavily under-exploited area.

5) There should be a national merit scholarship program where the top 10% of students going to university get free or heavily reduced tuition. Those who finish each year in the top 10% of their class should get significantly reduced tuition the following year. Excellence should be rewarded, and it should be need-blind.

Suryavarman

Voltwad wrote: »

There's no justification for the youth, the future etc emigrating but that's the result of Fianna Fail's domination

I agree completely but that is the sad predicament this country finds itself in. Hopefully we as a nation learn from this and don't let it happen in the future.

jc84

Ireland is the only country I've come across where third level education is free, I found it quite odd when I moved here actually but it is good if the country can sustain it, if they base it like the uk it wouldn't be so bad, you pay back the fees after you graduate and start working, maybe if they cracked down on student grants etc being given to people who then drop out of the course, this should be repayed if they don't complete the course

The Volt

jc84 wrote: »

Ireland is the only country I've come across where third level education is free, I found it quite odd when I moved here actually but it is good if the country can sustain it, if they base it like the uk it wouldn't be so bad, you pay back the fees after you graduate and start working, maybe if they cracked down on student loans being given to people who then drop out of the course, this should be repayed if they don't complete the course

It's not free?

Chuck Stone

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Surely the people best qualified to make such assessments are the universities themselves.

I very much doubt that.

If a college is funded say €5m well that's €5m worth of incentive to seek €5m+ the following year regardless of what kind of course the tax-payer has to fund.

amacachi

southsiderosie wrote: »

5) There should be a national merit scholarship program where the top 10% of students going to university get free or heavily reduced tuition. Those who finish each year in the top 10% of their class should get significantly reduced tuition the following year. Excellence should be rewarded, and it should be need-blind.

10% in each school or 10% of a national leaderboard? If it's the latter about 80-90% of it would just be a refund for those who send their kids to expensive secondary schools.

DB21

Great to see the usual lazy student stereotype from the pro-fees crowd. I'll tell you something, in my 2 years so far in NUI Maynooth, I've been out about 6 times only. So don't give me that crap that none of us do work. I'll tell you what, why don't you go round and explain to young people with aspirations of going to college that are from a working class background that college is going to be a rich boys club again.

The Volt

amacachi wrote: »

10% in each school or 10% of a national leaderboard? If it's the latter about 80-90% of it would just be a refund for those who send their kids to expensive secondary schools.

It would also still see students attending private schools gain a significant advantage.

amacachi

DB21 wrote: »

Great to see the usual lazy student stereotype from the pro-fees crowd. I'll tell you something, in my 2 years so far in NUI Maynooth, I've been out about 6 times only. So don't give me that crap that none of us do work. I'll tell you what, why don't you go round and explain to young people with aspirations of going to college that are from a working class background that college is going to be a rich boys club again.

I've not been out with people in college in two years, I win!

Voltwad wrote: »

It would also still see students attending private schools gain a significant advantage.

Exactly, and as I said earlier college fees, I would imagine, could reduce the numbers going to private secondary schools rather than give an even greater benefit to those who can afford such things upfront while class sizes in state-funded schools increase.

feicim

blahfckingblah wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/are-third-level-fees-looming-187801-Jul2011/

a possible return to third level fees. if this happens it will have the knock on effect of even higher rates of emigration and therefore smaller larger dole queues. this government surely must see that the benefits drawbacks of this move would outweigh the drawbacks benefits. cynicism craziness.

LimerickLad92

As a person preparing for 1st year in college Id like to have a say on this aswell.

Its absolutely crazy to expect alot of people to go to university or college without "free" fee's. Thats a very loose term, €2k is alot of money, more then I can afford and I will be relying on a grant to help me, let me give you all some info.

I come from 2 unskilled parents and a family of 6, I have a mother working 2 nights a week on minimum wage and cannot find any more hours or a second job, I have a father who has been disabled due to a work related accident and receives €211 a week, 16 of that is to feed, cloth and look after me per week.

I worked my ass off in a crap school full of lazy, trouble making students to have a very good leaving cert and go on and study the course I always dreamed of, Business w/Japanese. I come from a socio disadvantaged background and some weeks my family cannot do the shopping because bills need paying.

Yet, at this present structure I can still go to University, and hopefully change the lifestyle I see my parents struggle with a decent job at the end, where I can contribute to society and give my kids a stronger start at life

Enough of the personal bit, If Fee's are introduced, many people like me will be forced out of college, thats the fact, and what do I become in this economy? someone on social welfare struggling to find any job because the country has been devastated by pig headed politicians.

I do not say "No to Fee's". If a UK situation of a student tax was introduced for a certain amount of years after University was introduced, then it would be much fairer, if a finance system was forumlated where those with no income, with no credit rating can get a loan finance for their fees and living costs then even then, this loan cant be paid back without a job, there is not many jobs.

Not many students can secure a part-time job, why give Joe Soap, an 18 year old Engineering student a job in a Deli when Jim bob, an unemployed man with experience in the field has also applied for the job.

The problem is the same, no jobs. But the Government still must maintain the present circumstance so that Ireland can churn out more graduates, attract more FDI and let the youth motor this dump out of the recession.

Rant over!

southsiderosie

amacachi wrote: »

10% in each school or 10% of a national leaderboard? If it's the latter about 80-90% of it would just be a refund for those who send their kids to expensive secondary schools.

It could be either way, but you're right, the top 10% from each school would be far more equitable. That could really help give a leg up for kids from disadvantaged schools, but it would also acknowledge the fact that hard work should be rewarded, no matter what the socio-economic background.

As it stands the current system still disproportionately benefits the better off, who use the funds that would have gone towards fees to send their kids to better secondary schools, tutoring, etc.

nesf

LimerickLad92 wrote: »

As a person preparing for 1st year in college Id like to have a say on this aswell.

Its absolutely crazy to expect alot of people to go to university or college without "free" fee's. Thats a very loose term, €2k is alot of money, more then I can afford and I will be relying on a grant to help me, let me give you all some info.

I come from 2 unskilled parents and a family of 6, I have a mother working 2 nights a week on minimum wage and cannot find any more hours or a second job, I have a father who has been disabled due to a work related accident and receives €211 a week, 16 of that is to feed, cloth and look after me per week.

I worked my ass off in a crap school full of lazy, trouble making students to have a very good leaving cert and go on and study the course I always dreamed of, Business w/Japanese. I come from a socio disadvantaged background and some weeks my family cannot do the shopping because bills need paying.

Yet, at this present structure I can still go to University, and hopefully change the lifestyle I see my parents struggle with a decent job at the end, where I can contribute to society and give my kids a stronger start at life

Enough of the personal bit, If Fee's are introduced, many people like me will be forced out of college, thats the fact, and what do I become in this economy? someone on social welfare struggling to find any job because the country has been devastated by pig headed politicians.

I do not say "No to Fee's". If a UK situation of a student tax was introduced for a certain amount of years after University was introduced, then it would be much fairer, if a finance system was forumlated where those with no income, with no credit rating can get a loan finance for their fees and living costs then even then, this loan cant be paid back without a job, there is not many jobs.

Not many students can secure a part-time job, why give Joe Soap, an 18 year old Engineering student a job in a Deli when Jim bob, an unemployed man with experience in the field has also applied for the job.

The problem is the same, no jobs. But the Government still must maintain the present circumstance so that Ireland can churn out more graduates, attract more FDI and let the youth motor this dump out of the recession.

Rant over!

I've not seen anyone (worth listening to) who's argued for a flat return of upfront fees without either a loan system like the UK or the State covering fees for the less well off. You're ranting about something no one is proposing!

paulmr

Quite simply a return to third level fees would be a huge backward step. Even in this recession we should prioritise education and think long term. If fees return the chances of anyone from a disadvantaged background going to college will absolutely disappear. While a student is attending college for the 4 years they receive no social welfare, Would one not cancel out the other? so instead of lounging around wating for dole day at least the person is trying to better themselves and their chances. Also a person that attends college and gets their qualification is more likely to end up in a better paid job so in the long term will more than pay for their college fees through their income tax.

Kinski

southsiderosie wrote: »

It could be either way, but you're right, the top 10% from each school would be far more equitable. That could really help give a leg up for kids from disadvantaged schools, but it would also acknowledge the fact that hard work should be rewarded, no matter what the socio-economic background.

Hard work and talent is rewarded - with good grades and good qualifications. Why should financial rewards be thrown in for people who don't need them?

blahfckingblah

blahfckingblah wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/are-third-level-fees-looming-187801-Jul2011/

a possible return to third level fees. if this happens it will have the knock on effect of even higher rates of emigration and larger dole queues. this government surely must see that the drawbacks of this move would outweigh the benefits. craziness.

And probably won't do a damn thing about grade inflation or the declining standards. I don't know about the idea of funding courses selectively, it sounds a bit too much "we need engineers, so all students need to go study engineering now", but it's true we can't go on as we are.
Surely if we could raise academic standards properly, fewer students would waste time at college and expenditure would be less on students.
Failing that, then improve the standards and introduce a loan system.

dtmc

If you were to selectively give free fees to certain courses, you'd end up having a huge rise in the numbers of people applying for those courses(half of which probably have no interest in studying the subjects but have chosen to do so because it's free) and this would inevitably push the points for these courses up dramatically and alot of people who actually want to study it will not get accepted. You could end up with much more people dropping out beofre completing the course and the numbers graduating from these "economically beneficial" courses would be much less than previously, leading us to a much worse position to the one we were in previously.

Cavehill Red

Suryavarman wrote: »

Maybe if we had a proper fee paying system then there would be more scholarships on offer in these areas.

Why on earth should businesses have to pay up front? What if the students drop out of college?

The British army offer cadetships to put people through university in the UK. If people drop out, they repay the army what they owe. Simples. Basically, you've called for a renovation of universities into some sort of training mill for businesses. Why should universities assume that role which is properly the responsibility of the businesses themselves? Let the businesses pay to support the training they wish to outsource.

Suryavarman wrote: »

People go to college to learn these skills, they are then compensated for these for these skills through higher wages. So yes businesses do technically pay for college.

You appear to miss my point, so I'll repeat it: the businesses pay for the skills supplied by their employees. They do not (even indirectly) pay for university degrees. I challenge you to supply a scan of any employment contract that states that the employee is being reimbursed for their educational costs prior to taking up the job.

Suryavarman wrote: »

Once again I ask, why should businesses have to pay up front? What if the student turns out to be completely useless and is no use to the business. In that situation everyone loses, the student has a degree in an area they are incompetent in and the business is out of pocket for a useless degree. Why shouldn't the student have to pay for their living expenses out of a part-time job?

You're offering a series of false either/ors. If businesses want universities to supply courses that train people vocationally for their employment, then businesses should subsidise the cost of supplying such courses, either directly via studentships or indirectly via funding the departments.
If students accrue a debt of responsibility, then like every other area in life, they repay that debt, either by fulfilling the terms of their studentship (in the army case, by taking up employment with the army and passing muster there) or else by repaying the money owed.
You may not have noticed, but the vast majority of students DO pay for their living expenses by working. The maximum grant works out at about 40 euro per week, which wouldn't cover half of their accommodation costs, never mind transport, food, utilities, books, etc.

Lockstep

Not a big fan of the argument that those who pay fees would take their education more seriously.
First of all, students still pay €1500 a year, secondly my experience studying abroad with American and British students had them acting every bit as fecklessly as Irish students. Anecdotal evidence of course but it did make me dubious about the assumption that fees=reponsability.

jc84 wrote: »

Ireland is the only country I've come across where third level education is free,

Off the top of my head, the following also have free tuition (and registration fees similar to/lower than Irish ones)
Belgium, Scotland, the Netherlands, France, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland.

cavedave

Why just have loans for university fees? Why not put all education on a loan basis that you pay once your an adult? Presumably because you want every citizen to have a basic education (the three R's) to allow them to contribute to society and live in a way that maximises their chances.

But why is this point the end of second level and not at 12? or at 15? or 21?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Cavehill Red

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Straw man alert. I said we shouldn't be seeing Aisling's degree in Medieval Celtic Studies purely in monetary terms. I never mentioned blank cheques. We can of course extend your argument backwards to secondary and primary education. Should we eradicate subsidy of all study of anything non-vocational there too?

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Well, now who's resorting to caricature? This is the sort of argument propagated by the sort of person who writes 'Arts degree - please take one' on the loo roll containers in TCD arts block.
TCD's English School, for example, is currently ranked 5th best in Europe. It attracts students from all over the world to Dublin, who pay fees, contribute to the local economy, etc. The idea that only STEM subjects are of economic worth is a dubious one.

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I don't think you can conclude that, since Irish primary degrees are significantly more specialised than American ones. Further, I'd be intrigued to establish how those researchers determined a methodology of measuring the rate and quality of learning. It sounds like exactly the sort of woolly and unproveable research which gives sociology such a bad name.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Nijmegen

I don't think anyone is suggesting that students pay up front, and this will make college a rich people only affair.

Deferred loans, paid back as a percentage of salary over a certain limit, would be the method I think most people agree would be used. So, you get a degree and you pay for it from your salary. It's predictable for you.

As for access to higher education, the OECD studied this for the Irish Government and concluded that free fees was only a benefit for middle class people who were sending their kids to college anyway.

cavedave

Nijmegen

Deferred loans, paid back as a percentage of salary over a certain limit, would be the method I think most people agree would be used. So, you get a degree and you pay for it from your salary. It's predictable for you.

Presumably you pay the debt when you have a decent job? I see two issues with that
1. Irish young people like to emigrate, and this is further incentive to. Britain has something like 60m people and we have closer to 5. This means we will nearly always have higher emigration. A fair number of people will leave and never pay their debt

2. A third of Ireland young that are still here don't have jobs.

In Spain, youth unemployment runs at a scary 44%. In Greece it is at 36%, in Portugal, 28%, and Ireland, 31.5%

. I am willing to bet that many that do do not earn enough to be above any reasonable time to repay the debt limit.

This is a practical question. What % of people would actually repay a university debt given emigration and unemployement?