third level fees

blahfckingblah

http://www.thejournal.ie/are-third-level-fees-looming-187801-Jul2011/

a possible return to third level fees. if this happens it will have the knock on effect of even higher rates of emigration and larger dole queues. this government surely must see that the drawbacks of this move would outweigh the benefits. craziness.

RMD

They need to use their heads here. I wont be able to afford fees, so I wont be able to get skilled qualifications and get a well paying job. Instead I'll end up more than likely in some minimum wage paying unskilled job for the next 10-20 years until I'm lucky to get a good position down to experience.

The extra income tax they'd take in over 10-20 years due to having a well paying job would completely outweigh the money they'll spend on putting me through college.

cavedave

RMD

The extra income tax they'd take in over 10-20 years due to having a well paying job would completely outweigh the money they'll spend on putting me through college.

Is that an argument to only pay fees for courses that lead to well paying jobs?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Suryavarman

To expect taxpayers to keep funding third level education is a joke. I don't know if you've ever been to college before OP but if you had you would notice students sitting in the student bar day after day never bothering to go to class. You would notice that for some strange reason the first class on a Thursday morning(student night being a Wednesday) being strangely empty due to all the hangovers. You would notice apathetic attitudes towards class work and attendance in general. This is down to students not having to foot the bill for their education. In fairness this is only a minority of students but still a large group.

Surely for highly motivated students, the prospect of higher paying and more secure jobs would warrant paying the fees. If they weren't motivated enough to pay the fees then maybe they're better off not going to college.

Then there is the system itself. As Permabear pointed out, too often do we have people pursuing degrees that mean nothing in the real world. Then there are other degrees that simply aren't challenging enough. From my own experiences I have noticed lecturers picking and choosing when to go to class. Surely these standards are not what we want from our education system.

Many people talk about running government like a business. This sentiment should be applied to 3rd level education by literally running it like a business and just privatising the whole thing.

amacachi

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I'm pretty torn on this train of thought tbh. It's ridiculous to fund every educational whim someone may have but I also hate the idea of government influencing education at this level.

Have you got a link to those Trinity grade figures?

blahfckingblah

yea in DIT at the moment so the student bar thing doesnt really apply but i agree with what your saying to an extent, thats why i believe ranther than charging everyone or no one, it could be more beneficial to take other factors like grades or attendance into account, im just tossing about ideas here in my head but that would apply a greater work incentive whilst rooting out the wasters

Manach

Might some form of loan system instead make sense, which would allow the student to borrow to pursue their courses? As someone who is a part-time paying student, one values what one has to pay cold hard cash for, an education.

blahfckingblah

deferring the cost is still going to stop people from being able to afford , me for instance haha

tayto lover

I think that college bars should be a thing of the past.If they are preventing students from attending classes and studying then they are going against the whole purpose of education. We are not sending our children to college to drink. The colleges should know better than to allow bars on their premises.

amacachi

blahfckingblah wrote: »

deferring the cost is still going to stop people from being able to afford , me for instance haha

You don't plan to do anything afterwards?

blahfckingblah

yes but im realistic enough to know that when im freshly qualified it will be hard to get a job initially therefore possibly unemployed, then if im lucky neough to get a job as a new graduate these days the pay will be horrendus, the other option is emmigration which will cost a fair bit initially aswell, so it really is a long term debt in many cases.

Suryavarman

tayto lover wrote: »

I think that college bars should be a thing of the past.If they are preventing students from attending classes and studying then they are going against the whole purpose of education. We are not sending our children to college to drink. The colleges should know better than to allow bars on their premises.

I think that may be going a bit too far. I'm sure for the most part the bars do provide a stream of revenue for the college helping to subsidise the cost of tuition. There's also nothing wrong with students having a pint at lunch to celebrate a birthday or something similar.

blahfckingblah wrote: »

yes but im realistic enough to know that when im freshly qualified it will be hard to get a job initially therefore possibly unemployed, then if im lucky neough to get a job as a new graduate these days the pay will be horrendus, the other option is emmigration which will cost a fair bit initially aswell, so it really is a long term debt in many cases.

But if the taxpayer pays for it then those situations will still apply. If you end up unemployed then the degree will to an extent have been in vein. If you emigrate then the taxpayer has paid for your degree and got nothing in return, thereby refuting the argument that "free fees" pay for themselves.

Outkast_IRE

Im going back to college next year after completing a apprenticeship and i for one would have no problem paying fees as long as a proper loan facility was set up where i can pay them back after i finish my course.

blahfckingblah

Suryavarman wrote: »

But if the taxpayer pays for it then those situations will still apply. If you end up unemployed then the degree will to an extent have been in vein. If you emigrate then the taxpayer has paid for your degree and got nothing in return, thereby refuting the argument that "free fees" pay for themselves.

initially unemployed, i know im not going to walk into a job after college who does these days? and when i do get a job il have to pay for my education out of my starting wage? not everyone emigrates. not everyone will get jobs in their qualification, thats a fact but why are people being educated in these sectors? its not an easy situation at all to negotiate.

nice_guy80

there are certain 'professional' courses that should carry higher fees on the basis that you are more likely to get a job in that profession

Medicine - any graduate from medicine should have to work for 3 years in the Irish health system as it costs a fortune to train them and then they bugger off to the Uk or Australia.
Law
Teaching
Acctuary
Vetinery
certain business courses.

the other thing is the inflated salaries of the people running Third Level Colleges and the inflated pay of the teaching staff at many universities and ITs

Valmont

I'm finishing up my fifth year of third level education for a grand total of 27,000 euro spent. Looking at my job opportunities now makes me wish I sank my time and money into carpentry or welding or anything else that is actually useful to people. Oh well, onto a Phd I suppose.

Nijmegen

The OECD reported on free fees and pointed out that it didn't open up access to higher education for poorer people. This is a generally accepted fact.

Introduce a deferred loan system, taking a % of salary over a certain threshold, for students and give waivers and grants to poorer students through means testing.

Otherwise free fees are just a government giveaway that we don't want to give up.

Cavehill Red

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Personally, I'd love to see Aisling funded to study Medieval Celtic Studies. When we start putting a monetary value on preserving our heritage and our understanding of where we came from, and further, when we deem that heritage and understanding to be unworthy of the small monetary value we put on it, then we are truly lost as a nation and should just ask Steve Jobs to make an offer on the nation.

I entirely appreciate that the marketplace wants to see more Java programmers, etc. Well, would those industries not consider offering a few scholarships or even funding courses in their entirety? I mean, if we're going to go down the road that education must be solely for the benefit of producing good little workers that companies need, then the companies are benefitting, so why don't they share the cost?

I'd like to think that universities offer much more than that. I'd be the first to suggest that there are courses that I find somewhat risible, but I don't see why I should be the arbiter of what other people consider legitimate education. Nor do I see why anyone else in here is qualified to judge either. Surely the people best qualified to make such assessments are the universities themselves.

Suryavarman

blahfckingblah wrote: »

initially unemployed, i know im not going to walk into a job after college who does these days? and when i do get a job il have to pay for my education out of my starting wage? not everyone emigrates. not everyone will get jobs in their qualification, thats a fact but why are people being educated in these sectors? its not an easy situation at all to negotiate.

The longer you are out of college and not in a relevant job the less money you will earn and maybe the less chance of getting a job in the career you want and therefore the less return the taxpayer gets on it's investment. If people had to pay for their education then maybe they would focus on courses that would give them a better chance in the workforce. Having to pay could also have the unintended consequence of people doing better in their course by working harder and in turn earn them a higher paying job.

Yes I would imagine you would have to pay out of your starting wage. This isn't as bad as it would seem though. Using the information from the griffith college website here:

http://www.gcd.ie/assets/Uploads/pdfs/Fees/fees_July_2011/Full-Time-Undergraduate.pdf

you see that an Irish person will pay €4,950 a year for 3 years in the hons business degree. This will amount to a €15,000(rounded off) loan. Presuming it was repaid over a period of ten years at 5% interest, the total amount repayable would be €22,500. This works out at €2,250 a year. If you were to start off on €25,000 a year you would be earning €4,250 a year more after paying for the loan than you would be earning if you were working a minimum wage job. Now obviously not every course is this amount nor are all wages at this level. This goes to show that paying for a college degree isn't that bad.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I entirely appreciate that the marketplace wants to see more Java programmers, etc. Well, would those industries not consider offering a few scholarships or even funding courses in their entirety? I mean, if we're going to go down the road that education must be solely for the benefit of producing good little workers that companies need, then the companies are benefitting, so why don't they share the cost?

Some businesses do offer scholarships for high performing students. Technically businesses do pay the cost of college by offering higher wages to graduates.

The Volt

First of all, let's get one thing straight. 'Free education' doesn't exist at 3rd level across the board. €2,000 is the figure that's keeping a lot of people from either entering college in the first place or finishing degrees completely. I don't usually agree with Permabear but he's completely right in saying that the taxpayer should expect a return from funding 3rd level education.

The government is apparently €500 million short every year for what they need to fund education and yes, that is a problem that can't be ignored. However, it’s not some trivial thing we’re talking about here, education is the key to allowing citizens to participate actively in society. The notion that sometime soon, education may only be available to the very rich is a sad one.

Cavehill Red

Suryavarman wrote: »

Some businesses do offer scholarships for high performing students. Technically businesses do pay the cost of college by offering higher wages to graduates.

There are no more scholarships that I can see for STEM courses than there are historical busaries for traditional humanities courses. As I said, if we're going down this road that universities should be churning out wage slaves for businesses, then it seems fair to me that the businesses benefiting from that put their money in up front in a significant way.

Technically, businesses do NOT pay the cost of college by offering higher wages to graduates. They pay higher wages in return for more skilled tasks performed by the employee. Paying the cost of college would be simply that - fees and living expenses up front, in return for a commitment to a contract of employment following geaduation.

Suryavarman

Cavehill Red wrote: »

There are no more scholarships that I can see for STEM courses than there are historical busaries for traditional humanities courses. As I said, if we're going down this road that universities should be churning out wage slaves for businesses, then it seems fair to me that the businesses benefiting from that put their money in up front in a significant way.

Maybe if we had a proper fee paying system then there would be more scholarships on offer in these areas.

Why on earth should businesses have to pay up front? What if the students drop out of college?

Technically, businesses do NOT pay the cost of college by offering higher wages to graduates. They pay higher wages in return for more skilled tasks performed by the employee. Paying the cost of college would be simply that - fees and living expenses up front, in return for a commitment to a contract of employment following geaduation.

People go to college to learn these skills, they are then compensated for these for these skills through higher wages. So yes businesses do technically pay for college.

Once again I ask, why should businesses have to pay up front? What if the student turns out to be completely useless and is no use to the business. In that situation everyone loses, the student has a degree in an area they are incompetent in and the business is out of pocket for a useless degree. Why shouldn't the student have to pay for their living expenses out of a part-time job?

blahfckingblah

Suryavarman wrote: »

If people had to pay for their education then maybe they would focus on courses that would give them a better chance in the workforce.

that also implys that there are sufficient jobs in the country which there are not and its impossible to focus on jobs with a better chance of getting a job, the trade thats booming today could be in strife tomorrow.
theres no doubt that less people will enter 3rd level education as a result.

Suryavarman

blahfckingblah wrote: »

that also implys that there are sufficient jobs in the country which there are not and its impossible to focus on jobs with a better chance of getting a job, the trade thats booming today could be in strife tomorrow.
theres no doubt that less people will enter 3rd level education as a result.

The reason there is no jobs in this country is because the government destroyed the economy. In a few years hopefully the economy will have recovered and the jobs will return. In the mean time one could emigrate for a couple of years before returning to settle down. This obviously isn't an ideal situation but it does have some positives in that it allows you to see the world and you might pick up a foreign language that will help your career in later years.

The Volt

Suryavarman wrote: »

The reason there is no jobs in this country is because the government destroyed the economy. In a few years hopefully the economy will have recovered and the jobs will return. In the mean time one could emigrate for a couple of years before returning to settle down. This obviously isn't an ideal situation but it does have some positives in that it allows you to see the world and you might pick up a foreign language that will help your career in later years.

There's no justification for the youth, the future etc emigrating but that's the result of Fianna Fail's domination

southsiderosie

Universities should have fees. Students should have skin in the game. Loans should be readily available, as should means tested financial aid, but students should have some financial stake in their education.
But...

1) There should be definite limits on administration costs as a percentage of the budget, and the faculty wages should better reflect those of peer institutions in other countries.

2) Fees should definitely be higher in medical services, law, and other high earning areas.

3) There needs to be more educational focus on the 10-18yo age group to ensure that those who do not go to university are nonetheless well equipped to enter the job market and become productive citizens. This may mean more focus on literacy and basic skills for younger children, and an earlier shift into vocational training for older children. This may also help keep teenage boys in school longer.

4) Universities need to do more to attract private donations to provide fellowships, research grants, and lab space for STEM subjects. There isn't the culture of both personal and institutional philanthropy in Ireland as there is in the US, but given that there are so many American companies in Ireland that are used to corporate giving and university partnerships, I think this is a heavily under-exploited area.

5) There should be a national merit scholarship program where the top 10% of students going to university get free or heavily reduced tuition. Those who finish each year in the top 10% of their class should get significantly reduced tuition the following year. Excellence should be rewarded, and it should be need-blind.

Suryavarman

Voltwad wrote: »

There's no justification for the youth, the future etc emigrating but that's the result of Fianna Fail's domination

I agree completely but that is the sad predicament this country finds itself in. Hopefully we as a nation learn from this and don't let it happen in the future.

jc84

Ireland is the only country I've come across where third level education is free, I found it quite odd when I moved here actually but it is good if the country can sustain it, if they base it like the uk it wouldn't be so bad, you pay back the fees after you graduate and start working, maybe if they cracked down on student grants etc being given to people who then drop out of the course, this should be repayed if they don't complete the course

The Volt

jc84 wrote: »

Ireland is the only country I've come across where third level education is free, I found it quite odd when I moved here actually but it is good if the country can sustain it, if they base it like the uk it wouldn't be so bad, you pay back the fees after you graduate and start working, maybe if they cracked down on student loans being given to people who then drop out of the course, this should be repayed if they don't complete the course

It's not free?

Chuck Stone

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Surely the people best qualified to make such assessments are the universities themselves.

I very much doubt that.

If a college is funded say €5m well that's €5m worth of incentive to seek €5m+ the following year regardless of what kind of course the tax-payer has to fund.