How property tax should be charged?

Tim Robbins

First up, I agree with Property tax. The thing that everyone deals with is how it should vary. I think there is no point pegging it to value because value is way too difficult to ascertain accurately.

Therefore my proposal is:

1. 100 euro per bedroom or for every 30 square meters.
2. 200 euro extra if you don't live in it.
3. 100 euro extra if it is detached.
4. 200 euro extra if it is a one off house.

If you pay managenment fees - 50% of the fees you pay can be subtracted against what you owe the state.

The tax is non enforcable for the first 12 months your unemployed. After that only a percentage is.

The tax is non-applicable to anyone living in a ghoust estate and only a small percentage is to anyone on the pension.

So if there state has 1.8 milllion households, I think this would generate an average of say 400 euro per household - thus raising almost 1 billion in taxes that unlike stamp duty is unlikely to fluctuate.

Anyone got a problem with it - move to a smaller house or knock down your bull sh*t holiday home that you only spend one week a year in that was probably poorly planned in the first place.

That's my proposal - how about your's?

ei.sdraob

1500 euro a year for every Dubliner who thinks everyone should live in the Big Smoke and looks down on those savages beyond the Pale

the drifter

My proposal is they dont charge it.... its my house...i built it...im fecked if i should have to pay for the privilege of working hard and having my own house.

Balmed Out

So someone living in a large house in Dalkey pays the same as a large house in Gory?

Why the management fees let off? You do it yourself in a rural setting and get to pay extra tax for the priviledge?


I reckon it should be a percentage of either house value, rental value, or size. Whichever is smaller let the person choose.

Bullseye1

Public amenities and public transport should be taken into account. If a property tax is brought it the monies collected in that area/town/village should benefit that area/town/village. Monies collected in Bray for example shouldn't be used to improve amenities in Blanchardstown etc.

Bullseye1

Balmed Out wrote: »

So someone living in a large house in Dalkey pays the same as a large house in Gory?

Why the management fees let off? You do it yourself in a rural setting and get to pay extra tax for the priviledge?


I reckon it should be a percentage of either house value, rental value, or size. Whichever is smaller let the person choose.

House value has to be taken into account although Dublin did have the most inflated house prices which are worth alot less than they were originally bought.

Tora Bora

Tim Robbins wrote: »

First up, I agree with Property tax. The thing that everyone deals with is how it should vary. I think there is no point pegging it to value because value is way too difficult to ascertain accurately.

Therefore my proposal is:

1. 100 euro per bedroom or for every 30 square meters.
2. 200 euro extra if you don't live in it.
3. 100 euro extra if it is detached.
4. 200 euro extra if it is a one off house.

If you pay managenment fees - 50% of the fees you pay can be subtracted against what you owe the state.

The tax is non enforcable for the first 12 months your unemployed. After that only a percentage is.

The tax is non-applicable to anyone living in a ghoust estate and only a small percentage is to anyone on the pension.

So if there state has 1.8 milllion households, I think this would generate an average of say 400 euro per household - thus raising almost 1 billion in taxes that unlike stamp duty is unlikely to fluctuate.

Anyone got a problem with it - move to a smaller house or knock down your bull sh*t holiday home that you only spend one week a year in that was probably poorly planned in the first place.

That's my proposal - how about your's?

May I be so insolent as to suggest a few tweaks to your royal proposal.

5. Add €750 for all houses within 20 minute walk of a Dart station.
6. Add €1000 for all houses within 20 minute walk of Luas stop.

Do you know what I mean, baz;)

Tim Robbins

Balmed Out wrote: »

So someone living in a large house in Dalkey pays the same as a large house in Gory?

Why the management fees let off? You do it yourself in a rural setting and get to pay extra tax for the priviledge?


I reckon it should be a percentage of either house value, rental value, or size. Whichever is smaller let the person choose.

The person who lives in Dalkey probably costs the state less and if they have a higher income they already contribute more to the state.

You can't do value. No-one has a clue what anything is worth.

Michaelreilly

Tim, I don't find that coherent

ei.sdraob

Tim Robbins wrote: »

No-one has a clue what anything is worth.

Revenue have a record of every single transaction, CSO and centralbank/regulator have a record of % declines/rise in asset prices

fliball123

Tora Bora wrote: »

May I be so insolent as to suggest a few tweaks to your royal proposal.

5. Add €750 for all houses within 20 minute walk of a Dart station.
6. Add €1000 for all houses within 20 minute walk of Luas stop.

Do you know what I mean, baz;)

Some good ideas...hows about say out of all the suggestions say a person is paying 500 a year..See what proportion of the house they own..For example say a gaff is worth 200k and the bank is owed 100k the bank own half so they should pay for half

fatboypee

I find it incredulous that we're not, on the whole kicking off about this.
The BS that everyone in Europe has a property tax so we should too is an amazing platitude that has gone largely unchallenged ?

I'm not averse to a properly rated, value linked tax for which we get something of value in return. That makes perfect sense. However, a charge on a household as a flat rate ? I get NOTHING from my local government pertaining to my house. No refuse collection, no water, no sewerage, no street lighting, no paths, nothing that relates to my abode.

And I am sick to the back teeth of the "Meh, we gotta make up the shortfall somehow" crap.

This is a tax. Nothing more. A tax for which I will receive no added benefits, it will not go to the local government to pay for where I live in any shape or form. It simply goes down the big black sink hole called the public finances.

Therefore, my view charge me if you really must but please don't further insult my intelligence by pretending it is anything other than a tax on my income for any other reason than the country is a basket case with no capable politicians on any side of the divide with any clue on how the F-ing hell we get out of it other than to beat the inhabitants over the head constantly with trumped up taxes pretending to be something else.

Tora Bora

Reduce the tax by 99% if you are a destitute supreme court judge:rolleyes:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/senior-judges-facing-ruin-from-poor-investments-2831876.html

Tim Robbins

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Revenue have a record of every single transaction, CSO and centralbank/regulator have a record of % declines/rise in asset prices

Can they factor in things like condition of the house? If the garden is south facing? Just because your house is worth X doesn't mean your neighbours is.

@Michaelreilly , someone living in an estate in Dalkey can cost the state less than someone living in a one off house in Gorey.

Definetly costs the postman less.

And if they have twice the income they are going to get hammered by the tax man at source anyway.

Cool Mo D

The best property tax is simple: tax the value of the land the property is on, excluding the value of the actual building.

This encourages people to develop high value land, rather than leave it derelict, and discourages speculative zoning by county councillors. It also avoids punishing people for owning lots of low value rural land, or those with small plots who have made the most of them.

fatboypee

No there's a question. If any house is to be valued (assuming they can get their act together and put in a valuation system), would size of land count?

If it does, how does one go about re-parcelling land so it cannot be considered as the 'site' for the house, if owned by the same person as owns the house? Suppose its not possible if the mortgage deeds state the size of the 'site' ?

Tora Bora

The proposed new charge is not in place yet, and the minister responsible is already admiting it will increase next year:D:D:D
Philo, should be minister for finance (both of them);)

No guarantee new charge will stay at €100 - Hogan


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0727/breaking16.html

IRISH TIMES REPORTERS
Minister for the Environment Phil Hogan said today he could not guarantee that the household charge would remain at €100 for the next two years.
The annual flat-rate tariff will be levied on households for a temporary two-year period from January before being replaced by a full property tax in 2014.
Mr Hogan said the charge would raise €160 million in 2012 which would go towards funding local services such as fire services and street lighting.
However, he said he could not guarantee the charge would remain at the same rate even for the duration of the temporary period.
“Each year the Minister for Finance will have to look at the budgetary arithmetic. All I can is that for 2012, it will be €100 or €2 a week,” Mr Hogan told RTÉ’s Today with Pat Kenny programme.
The United Left Alliance said yesterday it would organise a nationwide boycott of the tax,which is due to be levied on households from January.
Socialist Party TD Joe Higgins claimed the charge could rise to €500 in a short time. His ULA colleague Richard Boyd Barrett said it charged the richest people the same rate as the poorest.
Dismissing the prospect of a national boycott, Mr Hogan said: “We are as a country broke…we’re obliged to bring in these charges otherwise we won’t get the funding that’s necessary from our partners in Europe to fund the country…if people like Joe Higgins want to grandstand in the Dáil about it they can tell the people where they’re going to get the money otherwise."
Earlier, Minister for Justice Alan Shatter also dismissed protest plans by the Opposition, saying the Government had been forced to impose it as part of its obligations under the EU-IMF rescue plan.
Mr Hogan plans to establish a new State utility company, Irish Water, in the autumn to oversee the process of installing meters in all domestic dwellings which would pave the way for domestic water charges based on usage in two years’ time.
The new charges will be the first local taxes to be introduced for more than 30 years, since the new Fianna Fáil government led by Jack Lynch abolished domestic rates in 1977. The Minister has contended the charges would reintroduce a great deal of autonomy to local authorities to finance their operations.
Opposition parties derided the new charge as an unfair and punitive tax that would affect the most vulnerable in society. Fianna Fáil’s Niall Collins was highly critical of its flat-rate nature. Similarly, Sinn Féin’s Aengus Ó Snodaigh said its “seeping nature” would affect some of the poorest families in the State.
Only 250,000 households, some 14 per cent, will be exempt from paying the charge. They include people in social housing owned by local authorities, families in receipt of mortgage-interest supplement and people living in nursing homes or mental institutions.
Those in mortgage arrears, State pensioners and those in receipt of social welfare will be required to pay the tax. Householders will be expected to declare their liability to tax in the same manner as the second home tax. Some 1.6 million households will have to pay the charge.
Announcing details of the plan yesterday, Mr Hogan accepted the tax would cause hardship to some families, but presented it as the minimum possible charge he could have applied, saying it would cost “ a modest €2 per week”.
“I think that people are suffering and are under pressure. I am obliged to introduce it but have done it at the lowest possible level to ensure provision of essential local services.”
Households which own second properties, including holiday homes and rented properties, will be required to pay the household charge for each property. That will mean a family with a holiday home will pay a total of €400 per annum – a €100 household charge for each property and a €200 second-property levy.
Those who fail to pay on time will pay a penalty of €10 a month. The legislation for the charge will include further details of penalties, including a possibility of imprisonment for persistent failure to pay.
Asked about the threatened boycott campaign by the Opposition, Mr Hogan insisted it would have to be paid, saying the charge would become “the law of the land like every other charge”.
Mr Hogan defended the charges as “essential” in ensuring the continuation of local services such as street maintenance, waste services, libraries, park maintenance and leisure facilities.

ei.sdraob

The bigger question that the OP should be asking regardless of how its measured is:

* How to ensure the money (all of it!) stays locally and is used for local needs
* How to ensure this money is not wasted
* How can local people transparently see where their taxes are going

Until the above are addressed any for of property tax will be nothing more than another form of taxation which will be wasted on any number of government created blackholes

Cookie_Monster

Tora Bora wrote: »

May I be so insolent as to suggest a few tweaks to your royal proposal.

5. Add €750 for all houses within 20 minute walk of a Dart station.
6. Add €1000 for all houses within 20 minute walk of Luas stop.

Do you know what I mean, baz;)

the reverse actually, so sustainable development is encouraged.
the closer to built up areas, stations etc the less you should have to pay as you are sharing the facilities between a much denser population.

This would encourage future developments to be denser, use less of a footprint, keep land prices in rural areas lower and leave rural land for agriculture and recreation.

Tora Bora

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the reverse actually, so sustainable development is encouraged.
the closer to built up areas, stations etc the less you should have to pay as you are sharing the facilities between a much denser population.

This would encourage future developments to be denser, use less of a footprint, keep land prices in rural areas lower and leave rural land for agriculture and recreation.

I'm with you. Good plan.

I'll just move my gaff, to Dublin, and take the bullet train to my farm in west Clare every morning.

ei.sdraob

Tora Bora wrote: »

I'm with you. Good plan.

I'll just move my gaff, to Dublin, and take the bullet train to my farm in west Clare every morning.

And while in Dublin you will avail of the joined up Luas and the brand spanking new Metro :pac:

As per my first post in this thread, we have people from Dublin on this site how thing everyone should live (or be forced to) in the Ghetto that Dublin is, without consideration that not everyone needs to, has to, nor wants to live there. A form of snobbery.

Let people in a local council area vote on how much tax they want to spend and be told and shown where the money will go, let them also vote on being able to redraw boundaries. This is how property taxes operate in other countries, local taxes coupled with local democracy, instead we will get more taxes flowing to politicians in Dublin to spend on private jet trips to Donegal :rolleyes:

View

Well, based on the way I saw it being done in the US, it was something like this.

The city/county has a network of former real estate agents who systematically estimated the market value of all property in the city/county. They usually under-estimated the market value (so it was let's say 90% of the actual value) to avoid arguments (i.e. legal cases) that the estimate was an over-estimate of the "true" market value.

Based on this, the individual property was valued relative to the average property value in the city/county on a %age basis.

The total property tax take desired by the city/county was then divided by the number of properties to figure out what the average property should pay (i.e. the average property tax).

The property tax for all other properties was then calculated based on the %age basis calculated above - In other words, a property with an above average property value was billed for an above average property tax, a property with a below average was billed for a below average property tax on a (limited) sliding scale.

Importantly, it should be noted that the issue of how much in property tax take was needed by local government was a critical factor in deciding the rate as how cities/counties financed their services differed (some relied more on property tax than others and/or provided more services). Also, due to that, even if your property declined in value, you could face a higher property tax bill as local government still needed the same total tax take to finance its budget (if the budget was not cut as a result of course).

Atilathehun

View wrote: »

Well, based on the way I saw it being done in the US, it was something like this.

The city/county has a network of former real estate agents who systematically estimated the market value of all property in the city/county. They usually under-estimated the market value (so it was let's say 90% of the actual value) to avoid arguments (i.e. legal cases) that the estimate was an over-estimate of the "true" market value.

Based on this, the individual property was valued relative to the average property value in the city/county on a %age basis.

The total property tax take desired by the city/county was then divided by the number of properties to figure out what the average property should pay (i.e. the average property tax).

The property tax for all other properties was then calculated based on the %age basis calculated above - In other words, a property with an above average property value was billed for an above average property tax, a property with a below average was billed for a below average property tax on a (limited) sliding scale.

Importantly, it should be noted that the issue of how much in property tax take was needed by local government was a critical factor in deciding the rate as how cities/counties financed their services differed (some relied more on property tax than others and/or provided more services). Also, due to that, even if your property declined in value, you could face a higher property tax bill as local government still needed the same total tax take to finance its budget (if the budget was not cut as a result of course).

And you think there is even ONE, Irish estate agent, competent to value a property:D:D Only thing those priks are good for, is putting phantom bidders against a willing buyer. If an estate agent in this country told me today was Wednesday, I would check the calender:cool:

sollar

Based on house size favours urban over rural

Based on house value favours rural over urban and penalises people who add value to their house.

Site value is the fairest imo.

tayto lover

I paid for my house, stamp duty, mortgage etc. Tax the people who got the free houses. I'm not paying a cent because i struggled for many years to pay my mortgage nad educate my children.

sollar

Phil Hogan was on Pat Kenny today and said the property tax will be based on house value and allowances will be made for low income households.

ei.sdraob

No need to tax anyone extra, remove the 500 million a year subsidy to landlords called "rent supplement" as added bonus rents would become cheaper for all

View

Atilathehun wrote: »

And you think there is even ONE, Irish estate agent, competent to value a property:D:D Only thing those priks are good for, is putting phantom bidders against a willing buyer. If an estate agent in this country told me today was Wednesday, I would check the calender:cool:

Yes, I do - remember the object of the exercise for the city/county is to have properties valued relative to the average property value in the city/county. The property tax charged per property then is charged relative to the average property tax in the city/county. The system have appeals mechanism in place obviously but as an appeal can adjust the estimated value of your property upwards - just as easily as downwards - people tend not to argue to the last cent about it.

Good loser

Tim Robbins

A good effort and corrigible to self assessment.

However don't support.

Prefer banding, on basis of capital values, rather like US system outlined.

The €100 is pathetically timid even for the introductory year.

Every house should pay this small amount and it should be paid by

occupier rather than owner.

At least it's so small it should cut ground from under the idiots in ULA -

'Socialists against a Property Tax'.

For opponents - why not pay a house tax if you pay a car tax?

Laminations

The problem with property tax is that no one is sure on what it should be taxing.

Size, Location, Value, Services, Amenities, a combination?

Should someone in a big house in Dalkey pay the same as someone in a small house in Dalkey?
Well they don't have the same means but is this a means based tax?

Should someone in a big house in Dalkey pay the same as someone in a big house in Gorey?
Maybe you think they should pay more because they enjoy better services and amenities (and their house is more expensive)?
However maybe it is the householders in Gorey who should pay more because the services they get are more expensive to deliver, due to distance and economies of scale etc.

Is the tax paying for the cost of services or is it a levy on the services you use and enjoy?

Two same sized houses in different locations are not equivalent and the same location with two different sized houses is not equivalent.

Its a messy tax.

jank

Everybody should pay rates but this money should go to local government. Councils would have to up their game alot if they were getting 1000+ euro from each household.

Here in OZ everyone pays water rates and council rates and if you own an apartment, strata fees. Depending on the rates you can be talking 2 to 3 k per year all in if not more. Strata rates could be that alone!!
Not sure what the big deal is with this being impliemented in Ireland apart from the "I'll go to Jail before I pay it Joe!!" brigade.:rolleyes: