The failure of Ireland's Immigration polices

Cork boy 55

The failure of Ireland's Liberal Immigration polices. An analysis

Ireland's immigration polices 1995-2010 have failed.
Here are 16 reasons listed below why I think so, there's others as well
such as worker displacement in labour market.
The debate is not anti-immigrant or anti-immigration it is about
the level of immigration and type of immigration
Where immigration is concerned, caution, control and conservatism should be the watch word
Had we adopted more immigration control in 1995 we would now have a smaller and more high quality immigrant population and could have avoided or minimized the dangers of it
while still gaining most the advantages that it can bring.
We need to learn these lessons for the future when the Economy recovers and we need
to deal with the hangover of the failed immigration polices to date.
Plenty of data can be produced for other European countries further down the road from us which confirms my viewpoint.




Economy

1: Social welfare cost
78,857 amount of non-Irish national on live register (388,066 Irish)
(see post number 102 for non-eu numbers)
If we compare the numbers on the dole with the populations recorded in the 2006 census
we see that some groups have high levels of social welfare dependence
http://www.politics.ie/current-affairs/137217-78-857-non-irish-nationals-live-register-2.html

2: Remittances
Money from temporary economic immigrants leaving country in from of remittances
I am not saying this is wrong of them, I am just saying this a reality of
liberal immigratiion polices.
Poles alone sent €841million home from Ireland in 2009
http://www.politics.ie/economy/141210-poles-sent-841million-home-ireland-2009-times.html


3: Cost of asylum system
The cost of dealing with asylum seekers will reach €300m this year(2008), with Irish lawyers making a killing from an estimated 1,200 judicial reviews of deportation cases by people who have entered the country illegally.
False claims help bill for asylum seekers to hit €300m - National News, Frontpage - Independent.ie

4: Social Housing
More than half of the applicants for council homes in north Dublin are from abroad, new figures show.
Over half on housing list are foreign - City News, National News - Herald.ie


5: Rent allowance.
Last week(2008), the figures appeared for the numbers of people receiving full state-subsidy for rental accommodation in Ireland. Nearly 40pc of them are immigrants.
Risible lies about immigrants no substitute for honest debate - Kevin Myers, Columnists - Independent.ie

6: Child benefit payments
Child benefit payments parents living in Ireland who claim for non-resident children.
2005 ..... €720,000
2008 ..... €20.9 million
2010 ..... €15.4 million

State seeks to change EU child benefit rule - The Irish Times - Mon, Mar 21, 2011



Justice

7: Prison Commitals
33.6% of all prison committals in 2007 where non-Irish national
Statistics-Home

8: Sham marriage
BETWEEN 10 and 15 per cent of the civil ceremonies conducted across the country may be “sham marriages” aimed purely at circumventing immigration rules, one of the country’s main marriage registrars has warned. Dennis Prior, superintendent registrar for the Health Service Executive eastern registration area, said the increase in suspected bogus marriages, which is now estimated at several hundred per year, was “disheartening and demoralising” for registrars
Registrar warns of rapid rise in 'sham marriages' - The Irish Times - Tue, Aug 17, 2010

9: Legal costs.
57% of judicial reviews in the High Court were 'asylum-related' in 2009 ie 749 of 1312.
Courts Service of Ireland 2009 report
23% (8.3m) of the State's funding to legal aid (€34,640,000) in 2009 was to represent asylum seekers through the Refugee Legal Service.
The costs of the State's legal defence to these actions, is extra but hidden in somebody else's budget. It is not clear if the costs of the Refugee Documentation Centre come out of the 8.3m.
http://www.legalaidboard.ie/ 2009 report
Interpreters for foreign national defendants in our courts cost €3.8m in 2008
Language costs for courts to hit €10m - National News, Frontpage - Herald.ie

10: Illegal immigrants
Migrant Rights Centre states that 30,000 undocumented workers reside in the state by their estimate.
Focus on status of undocumented migrants - The Irish Times - Mon, May 23, 2011

Health

11: infectious disease
Two examples
60% of all HIV and Aids cases are non-Irish national
50% of all recent TB cases are non-Irish national
http://www.politics.ie/health-social-affairs/144761-hiv-aids-nationality-statistics-revealed-4.html

12: foreign doctors fitness to practise
MORE than 60% of Fitness to Practise (FTP) inquiries completed by the Medical Council in 2010 related to foreign doctors.
Foreign docs in 60% of conduct hearings | Irish Examiner


Education


13: Cost of translation services
1100 language assistants in schools in January 2010.
Language posts cut 'will hit integration' - Latest News, Education - Independent.ie

14: OECD Education ratings decline
Ireland has dropped in OECD Education rankings I believe immigration is a factor in this
how big a factor is debatable.
Ireland has slipped from 5th place in 2000 to 17th place,
the sharpest decline among 39 countries surveyed.
In maths, Ireland has fallen from 16th to 26th place, the second steepest decline among participating countries. Ireland is now ranked as below average in maths.
Yesterday, the Department said the increase in migrant children, the greater inclusion of children with special needs and fewer early school leavers could explain the decline in literacy and maths standards.
Ireland drops in literacy rankings - The Irish Times - Tue, Dec 07, 2010
Annual Monitoring Report on Integration 2010
From Table 3.4 we see that scores of non-English speaking immigrants scored ,
59 points lower in reading than Irish students
35 points lower in mathematics than Irish students
Table 3.4 Mean reading and mathematics scores in PISA 2009 by immigrant/language status, 15 year olds (Ireland)
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0504/integration.pdf


Miscellaneous

15: Professional immigration industry “NGOs”
The immigration industry in Ireland contains a total of 189 organisations (2007)
These groups dominate the media debate or what passes for debate , there is no opposing voice.
Their press statements are reprinted as facts in newspapers.
Some of the biggest are
ICI, II , NCCRI, IRC, MRCI, NASC, RIS,
Its would be a very hard task to calculate just how much taxpayers money is taken by these groups. It is estimated that One Foundation and Atlantic Philanthropies account for a major proportion of funding provided to many of these groups.
Taxpayer money can be funnelled into these groups
both through direct and indirect means for example Development Education Grants
Pobal, National Action Plan Against Racism, Office of the Minister for Integration
European grants, FAS, HSE and Lottery grants.
These groups funded partly by us now represent a powerful lobby group.
http://www.prospectus.ie/documents/Prospectus_New_Communities_Report_Final.pdf


16: Irish naturalisation & immigration service
59,291,000 euro's 2010
http://www.budget.gov.ie/budgets/2011/Documents/Estimates%20Budget%202011.pdf

Mena

Any thoughts of your own, or are we simply transposing posts wholesale from politics.ie now?

nesf

The same article has appeared on two other sites, word for word, by different "authors".

If you're going to quote something, in future give your own opinion and don't just try and pass it off as your own work.

cavedave

The simplest most reliable way to help the world’s poor a lot would be for rich nations to accept more poor immigrants

Immigrants who come to Ireland to work should be welcomed in my opinion.

Mixing in immigrants and asylum seekers together is pretty confusing.

Also if our rules about social welfare, slow expensive justice system, social housing etc are wrong fix them. Dont blame immigrants if we set up stupid rules and benefits.

This Caplan podcast on immigration goes through the pro immigration arguments

Merch

nesf wrote: »

The same article has appeared on two other sites, word for word, by different "authors".

If you're going to quote something, in future give your own opinion and don't just try and pass it off as your own work.

I'm interested to see it here, I'm sure others are too. I wouldn't have seen it if it's elsewhere, as I don't spend that much time online (just the same few places).
Certainly something needs to change, for that there needs to be open discussion and acceptance of facts.

meditraitor

cavedave wrote: »

Immigrants who come to Ireland to work should be welcomed in my opinion.

hogwash, why would any immigrant come to ireland to work? ahead of say germany/france or the UK?

See a lot of people think its the safety net provided if you do work and then "get let go" that attracts/attracted a good % of the them........


I would bet my left kidney that immigration would decline massively if we didnt offer the dole gravy train to anyone other than taxpayers who have made more than 1 year contribution...... emmigration might also increase as the lazy scotes we breed ourselves go looking for the land of milk and honey....

dsmythy

Merch wrote: »

I'm interested to see it here, I'm sure others are too. I wouldn't have seen it if it's elsewhere, as I don't spend that much time online (just the same few places).
Certainly something needs to change, for that there needs to be open discussion and acceptance of facts.

There's a rule that the OP needs to give some form of opinion rather than just copy and paste. I'm interested in hearing the OP's views.

Memnoch

meditraitor wrote: »

hogwash, why would any immigrant come to ireland to work? ahead of say germany/france or the UK?

See a lot of people think its the safety net provided if you do work and then "get let go" that attracts/attracted a good % of the them........


I would bet my left kidney that immigration would decline massively if we didnt offer the dole gravy train to anyone other than taxpayers who have made more than 1 year contribution...... emmigration might also increase as the lazy scotes we breed ourselves go looking for the land of milk and honey....

That's not a problem with immigration but with the dole, which should be reformed and incentivise work

cavedave

meditraitor


hogwash, why would any immigrant come to ireland to work? ahead of say germany/france or the UK?

1. We rank above UK and France in the Quality of life index.
2. We speak English which is a very common second language unlike German or even in some places French
3. I can think of 12.5% of a reason. As can Google, Facebook, IBM, Intel, Microsoft, Symantec ...

See a lot of people think its the safety net provided if you do work and then "get let go" that attracts/attracted a good % of the them........

Fine change the law then

emmigration might also increase as the lazy scotes we breed ourselves go looking for the land of milk and honey....

So immigrants and emmigrants are either lazy or scammers and nothing about Ireland would attract someone here? Is the peoples republic of meditraitor to your liking?

nesf

Merch wrote: »

I'm interested to see it here, I'm sure others are too. I wouldn't have seen it if it's elsewhere, as I don't spend that much time online (just the same few places).
Certainly something needs to change, for that there needs to be open discussion and acceptance of facts.

That's irrelevant, we don't want users cutting and pasting content into this forum and masquerading it as their own work. It's supposed to be attributed and commented on which the OP did not do.

meditraitor

Memnoch wrote: »

That's not a problem with immigration but with the dole, which should be reformed and incentivise work

Thats what Im saying, if you are some polish(whatever) guy, working in krakow on €150 a week busting your balls doing 50 hours and franko from school calls you and says he is in Ireland........

"came over 3 years ago, worked for 6 months on the building then got let go," the best thing that ever happened to me"....... straight onto the scratcher as they call it over here....
€190 a week, rent allowance, free medicines, .....the thick cnuts are even giving me €200 a month for the kid I had with that slapper kathia, the one that still lives in blatiblativa " I throw her 100 and drink the rest.....

happy days, get your arse over man, get a job in lidl or a warehouse and then after 5 or 6 months sign onto the gravy train......"


This is what people think, and for all the do gooder "I have a foreign girlfriend who works harder than any irish person" eejits that populate boards none of them have proven it doesnt happen.

nesf

I'm so damn tempted to replace the "analysis" in the post title with "one side of the story."

meditraitor

cavedave wrote: »

1. We rank above UK and France in the Quality of life index.
2. We speak English which is a very common second language unlike German or even in some places French
3. I can think of 12.5% of a reason. As can Google, Facebook, IBM, Intel, Microsoft, Symantec ...


Fine change the law then


So immigrants and emmigrants are either lazy or scammers and nothing about Ireland would attract someone here? Is the peoples republic of meditraitor to your liking?

bla bla bla

our unemployment figures should be the first thing an economic immigrant looks at, not bloody quality of life data from some european think tank that wouldnt know its arse from its elbow......

Merch

nesf wrote: »

That's irrelevant, we don't want users cutting and pasting content into this forum and masquerading it as their own work. It's supposed to be attributed and commented on which the OP did not do.

Ok, dont attack me! so the OP should have some opinion included, I'm not aware how much is theirs or not, i'm still interested to hear it.
I know its not the only issue in this country but it is one of them that needs to be discussed.

cavedave

meditraitor

bla bla bla

bla bla bla The sort of people employed by google or facebook are not worried about unemployement bla bla bla

nesf

meditraitor wrote: »

our unemployment figures should be the first thing an economic immigrant looks at, not bloody quality of life data from some european think tank that wouldnt know its arse from its elbow......

Depends on your area of work really. If you're a doctor, it makes plenty of sense to immigrate, ditto in some areas of IT and so on. It makes no sense for unskilled labour to immigrate but there's more to immigration than just that.

nesf

Merch wrote: »

Ok, dont attack me! so the OP should have some opinion included, I'm not aware how much is theirs or not, i'm still interested to hear it.
I know its not the only issue in this country but it is one of them that needs to be discussed.

I didn't attack you, I explained why I had to give a warning and why this thread might end up locked if the OP doesn't rectify thing.

It's a complete cut and paste of whats on politicalworld and politics.ie by the way. Nothing original in it at all.

Dyr

It's pretty original for the politics forum though...

People will agree with the basic point or they won't

citizens > non citizens when it comes to the allocation of limited resources

CiaranC

meditraitor wrote: »

"came over 3 years ago, worked for 6 months on the building then got let go,"

For the MILLIONTH time, you need two years PRSI contributions to claim the dole.

Merch

CiaranC wrote: »

For the MILLIONTH time, you need two years PRSI contributions to claim the dole.

But you could get JA? without the 2 yrs or maybe assistance from a CWO?
I'm not sure, is that correct?

Cork boy 55

nesf wrote: »

The same article has appeared on two other sites, word for word, by different "authors".

If you're going to quote something, in future give your own opinion and don't just try and pass it off as your own work.

I am the orginal author of this OP thread

PM sent

anymore

Mena wrote: »

Any thoughts of your own, or are we simply transposing posts wholesale from politics.ie now?

Waht is the relevance of the source of the information ?

RMD

meditraitor wrote: »

bla bla bla

our unemployment figures should be the first thing an economic immigrant looks at, not bloody quality of life data from some european think tank that wouldnt know its arse from its elbow......

Considering the vast majority came prior to the recession when unemployment was low your point is irrelevant in that regard. Out of the many immigrants I've worked with, not 1 came with the intention of happily ending up on the dole.

paul71

Merch wrote: »

But you could get JA? without the 2 yrs or maybe assistance from a CWO?
I'm not sure, is that correct?

Not unless you satisfy the habitual residence rule. So the answer is no-one, not even an Irish Citizen who has been abroad for 2 or 3 years can show up here and claim social welfare.

walshb

Forget Social Welfare and the so called rules surrounding it, which have been bent by people for years, there is a massive cost to this state for asylum seekers, massive. That is the point. And, many of them are here illegally, have been denided access, yet they remian here with the state picking up the tab. Housing, feeding, clothing etc. Not at all saying that they should be starved, made homeless and naked, but hell, if they have not been accepted, then they need to be removed.

Mena

You're in the wrong thread. This is about immigration policies, not the Asylum system, which is part if the geneva convention.

MadsL

meditraitor wrote: »

Thats what Im saying, if you are some polish(whatever) guy, working in krakow on €150 a week busting your balls doing 50 hours and franko from school calls you and says he is in Ireland........

"came over 3 years ago, worked for 6 months on the building then got let go," the best thing that ever happened to me"....... straight onto the scratcher as they call it over here....
€190 a week, rent allowance, free medicines, .....the thick cnuts are even giving me €200 a month for the kid I had with that slapper kathia, the one that still lives in blatiblativa " I throw her 100 and drink the rest.....

happy days, get your arse over man, get a job in lidl or a warehouse and then after 5 or 6 months sign onto the gravy train......"


This is what people think, and for all the do gooder "I have a foreign girlfriend who works harder than any irish person" eejits that populate boards none of them have proven it doesnt happen.

Let's put these myth to bed again shall we :

What is "habitual residency"?
"Habitual residency" is intended to refer to a person's regular physical presence in Ireland. This physical presence endures for some time and usually (but not always) began at a date in the past and is intended to continue for a period into the foreseeable future.

What this means in practice is that, in general, if you have been present in Ireland for 2 years or more, work here and have a settled intention to remain in Ireland and make it your permanent home, you will satisfy the habitual residence condition. This habitual residency rule applies to everyone, regardless of his or her nationality.

http://www.newtotown.ie/working-ireland/residency-requirements-social-assistance-ireland-16.html

Forget Social Welfare and the so called rules surrounding it, which have been bent by people for years, there is a massive cost to this state for asylum seekers, massive.

Irish acceptance of asylum claims lowest in EU


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0121/1224288008903.html

walshb

Mena wrote: »

You're in the wrong thread. This is about immigration policies, not the Asylum system, which is part if the geneva convention.

Oh, and they are so so different...

Immigration: The influx of persons into a country, from their homeland to that country? Close? And no use of google there.

It's still costing this state a ****ing fortune.

Our immigration policy needs serious revision. The costs are listed on page 1.

Nodin

walshb wrote: »

Oh, and they are so so different...

Immigration: The influx of persons into a country, from their homeland to that country? Close, and no use of google there.

It's still costing this state a ****ing fortune.

Our immigration policy needs serious revision.

What about it needs serious revision?

walshb

MadsL wrote: »

Irish acceptance of asylum claims lowest in EU


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0121/1224288008903.html

Who cares what the rates are. I don't live in France, England, Germany et al. I live in Ireland. I care about the expense to my country.

walshb

Nodin wrote: »

What about it needs serious revision?

The cost, of course. Another easy one.

KINGVictor

walshb wrote: »

The cost, of course. Another easy one.

The cost of what exactly?

walshb

KINGVictor wrote: »

The cost of what exactly?

OMG, page 1, post 1....

KINGVictor

walshb wrote: »

OMG, page 1, post 1....

Well I thought it would be interesting if you can explain what you feel are those costs.
Most of what the OP outlined are basically sensationalist and baseless!

Nodin

walshb wrote: »

The cost, of course. Another easy one.

What does immigration cost, exactly?

walshb

KINGVictor wrote: »

Well I thought it would be interesting if you can explain what you feel are those costs.
Most of what the OP outlined are basically sensationalist and baseless!

So, the costs are untrue, inaccurate, false....?

Child benefit payments parents living in Ireland who claim for non-resident children.
2005 ..... €720,000
2008 ..... €20.9 million
2010 ..... €15.4 million

Are these made up figures, or an accurate reflection of the cost to the State?

I mean, why have acountants, auditors, statisticians etc if all they do is make
up sensationalist figures?

walshb

Nodin wrote: »

What does immigration cost, exactly?

Who knows; how long is a piece of string?

But, if I was to guess I would say far too much.

Nodin

walshb wrote: »

Who knows; how long is a piece of string?

But, if I was to guess I would say far too much.

You haven't a clue then, I take it. You're unable to seperate immigration from asylum seekers. Thought as much.

walshb

Nodin wrote: »

You haven't a clue then, I take it. You're unable to seperate immigration from asylum seekers. Thought as much.

To the nearest Euro, or the nearest cent?

No, I don't know the EXACT figure, and I doubt any human being in Ireland does either. You aren't all that bright, are you, to expect an exact figure for something like this.

More misdirection. It's all too predictable with you, Nodin.

Nodin

walshb wrote: »

So, the costs are untrue, inaccurate, false....?

Child benefit payments parents living in Ireland who claim for non-resident children.
2005 ..... €720,000
2008 ..... €20.9 million
2010 ..... €15.4 million

Are these made up figures, or an accurate reflection of the cost to the State?

Are you saying they aren't entitled to that money?

KINGVictor

walshb wrote: »

So, the costs are untrue, inaccurate, false....?

Like I said it is sensationalist, some of the outlined 'failures' as the OP calls them are quite ridiculous. What do you think are the costs of immigration?

walshb

Nodin wrote: »

Are you saying they aren't entitled to that money?

No

walshb

KINGVictor wrote: »

Like I said it is sensationalist, some of the outlined 'failures' as the OP calls them are quite ridiculous. What do you think are the costs of immigration?

I said already, too much.

Nodin

walshb wrote: »

No

Then whats your problem?

walshb

Nodin wrote: »

Then whats your problem?

The cost...Am I speaking Chinese?

KINGVictor

walshb wrote: »

So, the costs are untrue, inaccurate, false....?

Child benefit payments parents living in Ireland who claim for non-resident children.
2005 ..... €720,000
2008 ..... €20.9 million
2010 ..... €15.4 million

Are these made up figures, or an accurate reflection of the cost to the State?

I mean, why have acountants, auditors, statisticians etc if all they do is make
up sensationalist figures?

If you have a problem with people claiming for non-resident children in Ireland, then you should approach your EU reps...it is standard EU law applicable to all member countries.

walshb

KINGVictor wrote: »

Like I said it is sensationalist, some of the outlined 'failures' as the OP calls them are quite ridiculous. What do you think are the costs of immigration?

Sensationalist?

Ok, but false, untrue? These are figures provided by government departments. Are you saying they are false, misleading, or even, too high?

walshb

KINGVictor wrote: »

If you have a problem with people claiming for non-resident children in Ireland, then you should approach your EU reps...it is standard EU law applicable to all member countries.

I am well aware it's legal, and the law. Still think it's costing the State far too much. The EU isn't all good you know, well at least not for all its members.

Nodin

walshb wrote: »

The cost...Am I speaking Chinese?

O, so you object to the idea that "foriegners" who have contributed sufficiently to this country and satisfied the criteria to receive child benefit actually get what they're entitled to. Ok then.

KINGVictor

walshb wrote: »

I said already, too much.

What have you said exactly? You referred me to the OP's post, I looked at it and most of the content is one-sided and daft tbh. You must have a personal opinion on this...

walshb

KINGVictor wrote: »

What have you said exactly? You referred me to the OP's post, I looked at it and most of the content is one-sided and daft tbh. You must have a personal opinion on this...

One sided? They are just figures. They aren't on any one side. Just figures.