Does Ireland have a Far Right?

Corsendonk

Genuine question We seem to hear always about the far left with the PBP and Socialists Party in the Dail and then every demonstration in Dublin seems to get hijacked by groups left of the PBP. Does Ireland have a far right and who are they?

nesf

Religious far right/far left exist definitely. BNP style far right never really took off here to the same extent as in the UK.

The Christian Solidarity Party would be an example of the religious right. Mainly a one-issue anti-abortion party but somewhat broader than that.

dsmythy

It's a mix of individuals and nano-groups all unconnected to each other and seemingly incapable of organising. Add into that the odd Eastern European influence. Nothing of note.

meglome

I always felt that the far right had trouble taking hold here as people will remember how Irish people were once viewed and treated in Britain by the far right.

cavedave

Corsendonk

Does Ireland have a Far Right?

Far right can mean many different things as nesf has said.

One characteristic is racism. Other forums seem to have higher anti immigrant sentiment than boards.ie does. Also even apart from immigrants you could argue that anti-traveller sentiments could be classed as racism.

Morgan Kelly suggested that a party based on this was possible

Within five years, both Civil War parties are likely to have been brushed aside by a hard right, anti-Europe, anti-Traveller party that, inconceivable as it now seems, will leave us nostalgic for the, usually, harmless buffoonery of Biffo, Inda, and their chums.

Richard Hillman

In terms of the aggresive far-right like the EDL and other such groups there is no real organised movement barring a small band of people. I used to browse the Irish stormfront forum out of curiosity and its never used anymore. TBH it was mostly just journalists posing as users. With the current economic situation, the far-right should be prospering but its non existant. The few should be watched but i think there is more of a threat from the far-left. For some bizarre reason the far-left is more socially acceptable. Everytime there is some sort of mass public order issues, the far left is involved. Extremist left and right politics should be opposed in the same manner. They are both as hate filled and aggressive as the other.

Monty Burnz

Richard Hillman wrote: »

For some bizarre reason the far-left is more socially acceptable. Everytime there is some sort of mass public order issues, the far left is involved. Extremist left and right politics should be opposed in the same manner. They are both as hate filled and aggressive as the other.

Yeah, that's a bit of a puzzle alright. Left wing/revolutionary politics have arguably been responsible for far more death and misery than the far right in the 20th Century, but the far left is still regarded with a sort of amused tolerance, as if they are only playing at some sort of harmless Marxism.

But yeah, I don't think the far right has any sort of traction here (yet - long may it continue).

matthew8

meglome wrote: »

I always felt that the far right had trouble taking hold here as people will remember how Irish people were once viewed and treated in Britain by the far right.

Well the conservatives sent over food to help during the famine and the centre-left liberals didn't.

Sticky_Fingers

matthew8 wrote: »

Well the conservatives sent over food to help during the famine and the centre-left liberals didn't.

Wow, just wow. I suggest you do some further reading concerning the support sent over by the British government during the famine before you herald their intervention as a sign of right wing benevolence.

Here's something to get you started from wikipedia and the horses mouth:

"I do not think there is another legislature in Europe that would disregard such suffering as now exists in the west of Ireland, or coldly persist in a policy of extermination"

Lord Clarendon

"Comparatively trifling sums were required for Britain to spare itself the deep disgrace of permitting its miserable fellow subjects to die of starvation."

Edward Twiston Chief Poor Law Commissioner

According to Peter Gray, in his book The Irish Famine, the government spent £7,000,000 for relief in Ireland between 1845 and 1850, "representing less than half of one percent of the British gross national product over five years. Contemporaries noted the sharp contrast with the 20 million pounds compensation given to West Indian slave-owners in the 1830s."

Also referring to 19th century British political parties in terms of "right" and "left" as we would understand it today is not very useful since the major factions of the time would be considered overwhelmingly right wing by todays standards.

matthew8

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

Wow, just wow. I suggest you do some further reading concerning the support sent over by the British government during the famine before you herald their intervention as a sign of right wing benevolence.

Here's something to get you started from wikipedia and the horses mouth:

AFAIK the Whigs were to the left of the Peelites. The Peelites gave aid to Ireland during the famine and also tried to lower food prices. The Whigs did little.

Sticky_Fingers

matthew8 wrote: »

AFAIK the Whigs were to the left of the Peelites. The Peelites gave aid to Ireland during the famine and also tried to lower food prices. The Whigs did little.

Please see the edit I attached to the post (ninja edit before you replied, apologies for any confusion)

Also referring to 19th century British political parties in terms of "right" and "left" as we would understand it today is not very useful since the major factions of the time would be considered overwhelmingly right wing by todays standards.

Overheal

Pro-Religion, Pro-Life, Fiscal and Social Conservatism, Exceptionalism, Nationalism, etc. with loose ties to De-regulation of markets, government reduction, self defense advocacy.

I'm sure I'm butchering the specifics, but those are the highlights.

charlemont

I just think Far Right groups are muppets, We Irish are all over the world living with diverse populations and achieving success in Arts, Industry, Technology together with all these diverse people, So muppets who talk about White Pride and Kick out Muslims etc are just brain dead fanatics, I agree with people worried about some foreign traditions such as Arranged Marriages, Female Circumcision but they are not excuses for idiots to go terrorising foreigners.

meglome

matthew8 wrote: »

Well the conservatives sent over food to help during the famine and the centre-left liberals didn't.

Probably should have been clearer. I was talking more about the 1950's to the 1980's.

matthew8

meglome wrote: »

Probably should have been clearer. I was talking more about the 1950's to the 1980's.

Well Sinn Fein were also at it and they have 14 seats. Infact with SF the fact that they were the organisation doing the murdering, them to get 14 seats shows that people would be willing to elect someone on the far right if they distance themselves from loyalism.

Hannibal

with Fine Gael and the DUP the majority partners in government on both sides of the border it's only a matter of time before we go a bit further to the right than them. They both have Labour and Sinn Féin in government with them to keep more centred

Pride Fighter

There are a few, Immigration Control Platform, Celtic Wolves, Irish Defence League, Democratic Right Movement, Irish National Party and Stormfront Ireland.

There a bigger problem than you'd think.

cookies221

I don't remember the far-right attacking Gardaí or throwing paint over government ministers or disgracing our country on a worldwide stage by rioting like animals or attempting to kick in the gates of the Dáil or attacking orangemen marching in Dublin.

You're kidding no one bud. The socialists and loony left have casued far more misery than the non-existant far right in Ireland.

The Scientician

Lambay Island.

cavedave

Overheal

Pro-Religion, Pro-Life, Fiscal and Social Conservatism, Exceptionalism, Nationalism, etc. with loose ties to De-regulation of markets, government reduction, self defense advocacy.

Who that you consider far right advocates de-regulation of markets and government reduction? Most far right parties are very Authoritarian and want increased role of government and reduced business as well as social freedom.

For example if you look at political compass (where right is business freedom and down social freedom)

Hitler would be far right. Thatcher is not far from where the conservatives are today.

Would you describe Friedman as far right? Granted Friedman did not criticise Pinochet

Richard

Dotsey wrote: »

with Fine Gael and the DUP the majority partners in government on both sides of the border it's only a matter of time before we go a bit further to the right than them. They both have Labour and Sinn Féin in government with them to keep more centred

Can't speak for Fine Gael, but the DUP are left-wing on some social issues. On issues like abortion, they might be considered right-wing, but afaik all main NI paties have similar views on this issue.

Fratton Fred

There is a guy I went to school with who was in the National Front and is now in the English Defence League.

He made me a friend on facebook (odd thing about facebook, people invite you to be a friend despite never having been a friend is the first place) and he has loads of photos of EDL rallies and his crusader tattoos.

When you speak with a lot of these guys, their form of patriotism is more based on hatred and indoctrination. They speak like the Borg in that they spout the same mantra, often based on very twisted perception of facts.

I have absolutely no doubt that these angry, indoctrinated people would, if raised in Ireland, be members of RSF, Eirigi etc.

Their politics may be a lot different, but these organisations seem to fill the same void.

nesf

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I have absolutely no doubt that these angry, indoctrinated people would, if raised in Ireland, be members of RSF, Eirigi etc.

Their politics may be a lot different, but these organisations seem to fill the same void.

To an extent I agree, there does seem to be a vacuum in Irish politics filled by Eirgi et al that would seem to account for a lack of a hard right here. Our right is mostly conservative Christians, strongly anti-abortion and anti-divorce but fairly quiet on most other issues (compared to our religious left which is mainly focused on poverty etc and is relatively quiet on the abortion issue though would still be anti-abortion if asked the question). While we do have a few very small anti-immigration movements here, they've nothing like the organisation of the BNP or other such parties in the UK. Then, the UK lacks our rabid and populous left in many respects so perhaps there's balance here.

If you're young and angry in the UK there's the BNP, in Ireland there's RSF and Eirgi.

irishh_bob

meglome wrote: »

I always felt that the far right had trouble taking hold here as people will remember how Irish people were once viewed and treated in Britain by the far right.

thier is no right in ireland let alone a far right , irish people are not authoritarian in nature so a far right party would not be at all attractive to the vast majority of voters

irishh_bob

Dotsey wrote: »

with Fine Gael and the DUP the majority partners in government on both sides of the border it's only a matter of time before we go a bit further to the right than them. They both have Labour and Sinn Féin in government with them to keep more centred

the DUP are christian right , i wouldnt call them far right per say , fine gael are centrist with a conservative ( small c ) wing

cavedave

irishh_bob

the DUP are christian right , i wouldnt call them far right per say , fine gael are centrist with a conservative ( small c ) wing

The description og the UK and the Irish parties on political compass is very interesting

UK

Ireland


It is one sites opinion so you cannot read to much into it. But both labour and the tories are far more extreme than I would imagine they are in these graphics.

Labour - or is it still New Labour? - has moved markedly towards a more authoritarian position than the circumstances justify. Along with the indefinite retention of DNA profiles of people arrested but not convicted and the 42-day pre-charge detention, the party also continues to champion ID cards, an identity database and much else that has upset civil libertarians. While fiscally there are hints that the party is now reaching back to its core values, under Blair and Brown Labour has gone to extraordinary lengths to privatise the economy and nationalise the public.

goose2005

Ireland has no real tradition of the working class being involved in mass political movements - part of the reason behind the rise of the BNP is the death of old Labour.

Alopex

cavedave wrote: »

The description og the UK and the Irish parties on political compass is very interesting

UK

Ireland


It is one sites opinion so you cannot read to much into it. But both labour and the tories are far more extreme than I would imagine they are in these graphics.

Who decides, and how do they decide who goes where on that chart?

catbear

If there is a far right rise I'd imagine it would involve dissatisfied Fianna Failers, those outside the tent who feel the current shell is a spent force.

It will centre around nationalism and be more a rural force.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

ardmacha

Let's see: I'm atheist, pro-choice, anti-war, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, pro–open borders, strongly opposed to nationalism in all its guises, and very supportive of deregulated markets and minimal government.

What does that make me?

A danger to society?

dsmythy

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

That ought to cover it

cavedave

Alopex
Who decides, and how do they decide who goes where on that chart?

"The Politicalcompass.org website does not reveal the people behind it, beyond the fact that it seems to be based in the UK.[4][5] According to the New York Times, the site is the work of Wayne Brittenden, a political journalist.[1] According to Tom Utley, writing in the Daily Telegraph, the site is connected to One World Action, a charity founded by Glenys Kinnock, and to Kinnock herself.
The website does not explain its scoring system in detail and some writers have criticised its validity while others have treated it more as a form of entertainment than a rigorous analysis"

Particularly for UK parties it seems fairly inaccurate at the moment.

Wolfe Tone

nesf wrote: »

To an extent I agree, there does seem to be a vacuum in Irish politics filled by Eirgi et al that would seem to account for a lack of a hard right here. Our right is mostly conservative Christians, strongly anti-abortion and anti-divorce but fairly quiet on most other issues (compared to our religious left which is mainly focused on poverty etc and is relatively quiet on the abortion issue though would still be anti-abortion if asked the question). While we do have a few very small anti-immigration movements here, they've nothing like the organisation of the BNP or other such parties in the UK. Then, the UK lacks our rabid and populous left in many respects so perhaps there's balance here.

If you're young and angry in the UK there's the BNP, in Ireland there's RSF and Eirgi.

They are complete polar opposites, eirigí etc, are socialist republicans. They have feck all in common, their reasons for existence aren't even the same. These republican socialists, particularly in eirigi, would be very socially liberal and would have almost totally opposite views to groups like the BNP.

I think you are letting your disdain for those parties and their politics take over in somehow trying to lump them in with the BNP, citing that they all have young members, yeah well so does every political party.

mikemac

Irish forum on Stormfront seems to have died a death
Was busy around 2008 and early 2009 and now nothing ever happens in there

If they're migrated to some new site I don't know where it is

Richard

cavedave wrote: »

The description og the UK and the Irish parties on political compass is very interesting

UK

Ireland


It is one sites opinion so you cannot read to much into it. But both labour and the tories are far more extreme than I would imagine they are in these graphics.

It's interesting that Sinn Fein are more left wing on the Ireland chart. I womder is this to do with different policies, or that Ireland is more right wing on average and it's all relative.

nesf

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

They are complete polar opposites, eirigí etc, are socialist republicans. They have feck all in common, their reasons for existence aren't even the same. These republican socialists, particularly in eirigi, would be very socially liberal and would have almost totally opposite views to groups like the BNP.

I think you are letting your disdain for those parties and their politics take over in somehow trying to lump them in with the BNP, citing that they all have young members, yeah well so does every political party.

You completely miss my point, I was not saying that Eirigi et al are similar in politics to the BNP only that they provide a similar "service" within the political spectrum (i.e. a relatively well organised extreme party).

Alopex

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

They are complete polar opposites, eirigí etc, are socialist republicans. They have feck all in common, their reasons for existence aren't even the same. These republican socialists, particularly in eirigi, would be very socially liberal and would have almost totally opposite views to groups like the BNP.

I think you are letting your disdain for those parties and their politics take over in somehow trying to lump them in with the BNP, citing that they all have young members, yeah well so does every political party.

They aren't similar at all. however, I would say if you did a statistical analysis on the members of each group, theyd be coming from similar socioeconomic backgrounds and levels of education.

So basically, if Eirigi members were from England, they may join socialist groups, but I'd argue its likely its the nationalist element of Eirigi which is the biggest factor in pulling members in. This nationalistic sentiment is used by EDL/BNP etc

To be honest I am glad we have nationalist groups like eirigi, far preferable to groups built on hate like BNP/EDL.

For a country the size of ireland, there "should" be a BNP style movement, the fact is there isn't, and its probably down to Sinn Fein/Eirigi bettering the types of people who would join it.

Wolfe Tone

nesf wrote: »

You completely miss my point, I was not saying that Eirigi et al are similar in politics to the BNP only that they provide a similar "service" within the political spectrum (i.e. a relatively well organised extreme party).

So they are similar in that they are the complete opposite politically and would have complete disdain for BNP members and policies?


I know exactly what you are trying to say, as was Fred, that similar types of people join(ie hate filled racists), thats complete rubbish.

cavedave

Wolfe Tone

These republican socialists, particularly in eirigi, would be very socially liberal and would have almost totally opposite views to groups like the BNP.

How are they socially liberal? I have looked through their campaign page and see nothing on drug laws, abortion laws, gay marriage, euthanasia, free immigration and any of the other social issues you regularly hear about. I am not trying to be funny here, if Eirigi have liberal positions on these I would like to see that.

Richard

It's interesting that Sinn Fein are more left wing on the Ireland chart. I womder is this to do with different policies, or that Ireland is more right wing on average and it's all relative.

That is interesting. Maybe Ireland is more left wing in general? We have higher welfare payments and other things you could use to measure left economically leanings

Einhard

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

So they are similar in that they are the complete opposite politically and would have complete disdain for BNP members and policies?


I know exactly what you are trying to say, as was Fred, that similar types of people join(ie hate filled racists), thats complete rubbish.

In fairness, I don't think you have a clue what he's trying to say.

getz

there was a american language professor on BBC radio two the other day,talking about the evolving english language and the new words coming into it, she said right wing goverments who police their language,i know she mentioned france,would ireland also come into that frame,

nesf

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

So they are similar in that they are the complete opposite politically and would have complete disdain for BNP members and policies?


I know exactly what you are trying to say, as was Fred, that similar types of people join(ie hate filled racists), thats complete rubbish.

Again you miss my point.

Think of it this way, every country has a bunch of low income people angry at the system for whatever reason. These people need a party to give them a voice and due to the nature of the beast it tends to be a more extreme party far away from the centre for some of them, the rest back centre left parties and hope for a raise in the minimum wage and/or dole or whatever. Whether it's left or right doesn't make a whole lot of difference so long as they can protest against the system and/or status quo. In the UK we've the BNP, in Ireland we've Eirigi and to an extent SF. These two groups are extremely different in policies but extremely similar in makeup of membership. The members are just angry about different things.

Edit: As a sidenote, remember that FF used to be a left wing party of the low and middle incomes. It's different now sure but back in the 80s and 70s FF were in many areas the party of the less well off man, hard as it is to believe now.

ei.sdraob

http://who.is/whois/politicalcompass.org/

Since its registered to a UK company i presume they have an equivalent of CRO where you can find out who owns the company and things like accounts. more here

Monty Burnz

getz wrote: »

would ireland also come into that frame,

No. There's no policing of the English language.

LeixlipRed

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Yeah, that's a bit of a puzzle alright. Left wing/revolutionary politics have arguably been responsible for far more death and misery than the far right in the 20th Century, but the far left is still regarded with a sort of amused tolerance, as if they are only playing at some sort of harmless Marxism.

But yeah, I don't think the far right has any sort of traction here (yet - long may it continue).

Groan...I'm a member of marxist party in the trotskyist tradition. Do you know what happened to such people under Stalinism? They were flung in the gulag along with everyone else. Far left politics didn't murder en masse in the 21st century, a couple of dictators and their chums did. But don't let that get in the way of a good story.

irishh_bob

cavedave wrote: »

The description og the UK and the Irish parties on political compass is very interesting

UK

Ireland


It is one sites opinion so you cannot read to much into it. But both labour and the tories are far more extreme than I would imagine they are in these graphics.

the BNP are left wing economically

Monty Burnz

LeixlipRed wrote: »

Groan...I'm a member of marxist party in the trotskyist tradition. Do you know what happened to such people under Stalinism? They were flung in the gulag along with everyone else. Far left politics didn't murder en masse in the 21st century, a couple of dictators and their chums did. But don't let that get in the way of a good story.

Um...firstly, I was talking about the 20th century (which may have been a slip on your part, fair enough). Secondly, I was talking about the far left and revolutionary politics - which often go hand in hand.

So I'd point to the Khmer Rouge, China under Mao, Stalinist Russia, Romania under Ceaucescu and so forth. Now you can pretend that Russia, Romania, and China were not far left-wing countries, and that the Khmer Rouge were not communists, but the facts say otherwise. Please don't give us the standard 'no true Scotsman' defence.

As for the far-right - I guess you'd have Nazi Germany, Italy under Mussolini, and perhaps some regimes in South America...and I'm out of ideas. But the Argentine fascists killed perhaps 20,000 people - the Khmer Rouge killed a couple of million.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

getz

Monty Burnz wrote: »

No. There's no policing of the English language.

mind you she came over a bit strange,for instance what we are doing now is called ;open kimono;;thats a open discussion,sounds a little dirty

Fratton Fred

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

So they are similar in that they are the complete opposite politically and would have complete disdain for BNP members and policies?


I know exactly what you are trying to say, as was Fred, that similar types of people join(ie hate filled racists), thats complete rubbish.

To put it simply, they all attract people who need somewhere to direct their anger.

To the BNP its immigrants taking our jobs, raping our women etc, to Eirigi it is the Brits, taking our land raping our women.

I know they are polar opposites in their beliefs, but when you listen to the form the rhetoric takes it is surprisingly similar.

I messed about with the SWP when I was younger and to an extent that is very similar but where the BNP consider kicking out immigrants would solve all their problems, the SWP believed kicking out all rich people would create a perfect society.