Question for Athiests and church bashers

Downlinz

If you believe the church is corrupt + power hungry and that god isn't real.

What does that say about your judgment on the intelligence of your parents, grandparents and other relatives who more than likely devoted so much of their lives to these causes? As a huge part of our society wouldn't it imply you believed they were gullible and naive people to live the way they did? Perhaps weak-willed to stand out from the crowd and question accepted truths?


(p.s. I am an athiest and pondering this question myself. Not looking to start some sort of shame parade or anything)

FatherLen

both of my parents are atheists and my grandparents are too. in my opinion most people were forced into the church back in the day and it was nearly taboo to question it. so to answer your question i dont think any different of the people that raised me.

KeithAFC

Nothing really. A lot of people just went to church to talk to friends and have a good old chat. Some probably still do.

wild_cat

Downlinz wrote: »

If you believe the church is corrupt + power hungry and that god isn't real.

What does that say about your judgment on the intelligence of your parents, grandparents and other relatives who more than likely devoted so much of their lives to these causes? As a huge part of our society wouldn't it imply you believed they were gullible and naive people to live the way they did? Perhaps weak-willed to stand out from the crowd and question accepted truths?


(p.s. I am an athiest and pondering this question myself. Not looking to start some sort of shame parade or anything)

I've told them that my grandmothers were brain washed because it gave them a bit of hope and in turn my parents were also brainwashed at school... by what they heard on the radio... by what they heard at mass.

Dravokivich

You could you say the same thing for Jews / Muslims / Budhists / Hindus / what ever else there is.

Helix

atheism tends to come with education, and our parents' and grandparents' generations didnt have the same level of that as we do. nor did they have the kind of exposure to the world that we do. they had religion bet into them in many cases, so you can't really think any less of them for it.

in the years and generations to come we'll see religion having less and less of a place in the civilised world anyway and even our current society will be looked back at with the same kind of shame we look back on the child abuse of previous generations

funloving

my parents are not religious but I would not think differently about the way i have been raised or my family.
everybosy chooses to believe in what they want and this has nothing to do to intelligence or so IMO.
I suppose some people need to dedicate their life believing in something whereas some other trying to find a scientific reason for things.

i personally believe in logic

CardBordWindow

Downlinz wrote: »

If you believe the church is corrupt + power hungry and that god isn't real.

What does that say about your judgment on the intelligence of your parents, grandparents and other relatives who more than likely devoted so much of their lives to these causes? As a huge part of our society wouldn't it imply you believed they were gullible and naive people to live the way they did? Perhaps weak-willed to stand out from the crowd and question accepted truths?


(p.s. I am an athiest and pondering this question myself. Not looking to start some sort of shame parade or anything)

I would never judge someone's intelligence just because of theological differences.

Seachmall

I'm an atheist. I don't pass judgments on someone's intelligence based on their beliefs. The most intelligent man I personally know is also the most religious man I personally know.

Dermo

My grandfather didn't think there was any use in learning different languages or advanced science. I don't judge him for these things.

In fact, I try my best, as an atheist, not to judge people because of their beliefs.

FatherLen

funloving wrote: »

i personally believe in logic

i dont believe in logic. it doesnt exist. its like jesus or e.t.

Biggins

Downlinz wrote: »

If you believe the church is corrupt + power hungry and that god isn't real.

What does that say about your judgement on the intelligence of your parents, grandparents and other relatives who more than likely devoted so much of their lives to these causes?

Its says that they are human and as such are open to be used as sheep to be herded by those that have an ulterior motive.
Be it religious nuts, politicians, business people or more - they are prone to those that would look to prey upon them.

Why does it have to say anything about intelligence? That's presumptuous.
The most intelligent in the world can still be fooled or blind walked into something that they know little about when its not in their field of expertise!

IvyTheTerrible

Helix wrote: »

atheism tends to come with education, and our parents' and grandparents' generations didnt have the same level of that as we do. nor did they have the kind of exposure to the world that we do. they had religion bet into them in many cases, so you can't really think any less of them for it.

in the years and generations to come we'll see religion having less and less of a place in the civilised world anyway and even our current society will be looked back at with the same kind of shame we look back on the child abuse of previous generations

Some of the most religious people I know are the most educated.

Monty Burnz

Downlinz wrote: »

If you believe the church is corrupt + power hungry and that god isn't real.

What does that say about your judgment on the intelligence of your parents, grandparents and other relatives who more than likely devoted so much of their lives to these causes?

They were wrong. Same as they were wrong about so much other stuff. As a culture, we learn as we go along.

Not rocket science.

Vicxas

My mother was quite religious when I was younger, she then turned quite agnostic so I cant really complain about my lack of interest in religion.

Piriz

Today, many atheists are aware of and believe the theories of human and planetary evolution and thus refuse the existence of a God within this scientific understanding. Earlier generations were not privy to such knowledge therefore did not have the information by which to contextualise.

Furthermore, individuals of earlier generations who did not believe in 'God' etc. were possibly best off playing the smart game by keeping their views under wraps due to the social stigma and often negative consequences of being a non-believer.

Going back even further heresy was punishable by torture and death.

Today is different thankfully.

The King of Moo

I'm an atheist but I don't mind people being religious unless it affects me personally: ie they try to convert me or something.

The people who are a bit fundamentalist, and follow all of the supplementary rules about religion outside the core "love one another" idea such as taking the bible literally/believing in creationism/homosexuality is a sin: those people I can't help but think are not the brightest.

But the majority of people in this country at least, are and always have been religious in a casual sort of way. They went to mass and got married in a church simply because almost everyone else did. Religion was such a dominant part of their lives that it never occurred to them to question it in any meaningful way and buck social norms. But I think most people never let it dominate their lives and were smart enough not to always take everything religious as gospel (pun intended). My parents would probably call themselves Catholics but don't go to mass every week (and probably have now lost all respect for the church as an institution, though still believe in the religious message), and even when I was a kid they left the religion at the church door on sunday, apart from maybe trying to follow the broad teachings of the church in their lives, but without thinking too much about it.

In today's society where religion is more openly questioned and the church has been so heavily criticised it's more difficult to imagine why people would be religious, but in the past it was just the done thing, so I wouldn't look down on people for it.

Monty Burnz

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

Some of the most religious people I know are the most educated.

'Some Xs are Y' doesn't contradict that poster's point.

Helix

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

Some of the most religious people I know are the most educated.

yeah, but by the logic implied in that sentence, most of the most religious people you know are not the most educated

py2006

Previous generations didn't really have a choice!! Especially, our grandparents generation and back.

If they didn't go they were shunned by the community!! Our parents generation still had this to a certain extent but it was more to do with their parents forcing them.

Today we have a choice.

Standman

It's well known that immensely intelligent people can be religious believers. It seems people are well able to compartmentalise their brains when it comes to religion.

For myself when I was young, the fact that my parents and many people smarter than me were religious was one of the reasons I put off calling my self an atheist for so long. I thought how could all these very smart people who are older than me be so fundamentally wrong. Eventually I came to understand it has nothing to do with intellect. I was convincing myself through an appeal to the masses.

seamus

Downlinz wrote: »

If you believe the church is corrupt + power hungry and that god isn't real.

What does that say about your judgment on the intelligence of your parents, grandparents and other relatives who more than likely devoted so much of their lives to these causes? As a huge part of our society wouldn't it imply you believed they were gullible and naive people to live the way they did? Perhaps weak-willed to stand out from the crowd and question accepted truths?

What you're effectively saying is that it's wrong to have a differing opinion to those of your parents because it presupposes that they're wrong?

My great-grandfather was an alcoholic who treated animals appallingly.

Is it wrong of me to say that he was a complete cúnt? What's wrong, exactly, with considering yourself to have improved opinions/facts/education than your ancestors? Is that not the entire point of life itself - to continuously improve?

Micky Dolenz

OP, why didn't you ask this in the Atheists forum?

c_man

My great Grandfather and his brother split the family by actively taking part in opposite sides in the Civil War.

Just because they're my ancestors doesn't mean that that behaviour is in any way right or correct or that I should remain firm to the political beliefs that my family have held since then (FFers one and all :pac: ).

Snakeblood

Downlinz wrote: »

If you believe the church is corrupt + power hungry and that god isn't real.

What does that say about your judgment on the intelligence of your parents, grandparents and other relatives who more than likely devoted so much of their lives to these causes? As a huge part of our society wouldn't it imply you believed they were gullible and naive people to live the way they did? Perhaps weak-willed to stand out from the crowd and question accepted truths?


(p.s. I am an athiest and pondering this question myself. Not looking to start some sort of shame parade or anything)

My parents and family in general apart from my grandparents are atheists. They let me choose what to believe. I think my grandparents were indoctrinated from birth and didn't have a chance.

Monty Burnz

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

OP, why didn't you ask this in the Atheists forum?

Because he doesn't believe in it.

Zebra3

Downlinz wrote: »

If you believe the church is corrupt + power hungry and that god isn't real.

What does that say about your judgment on the intelligence of your parents, grandparents and other relatives who more than likely devoted so much of their lives to these causes? As a huge part of our society wouldn't it imply you believed they were gullible and naive people to live the way they did? Perhaps weak-willed to stand out from the crowd and question accepted truths?


(p.s. I am an athiest and pondering this question myself. Not looking to start some sort of shame parade or anything)

I pity them as victims of their enviroment.

Mighty_Mouse

My great (*5000) gran parents were monkeys who fashioned axes from rocks, my great (*500) gran parents lived in caves, my great (*50) gran parents thought the earth was flat and blood-letting was best medical practice, my great (*5) burned witches & practiced alchemy....................what people will choose to belive never fails to surprise me.

Be careful of thinking you have all the answers.

fearcruach

It seems that AH has become the Atheist forum judging by the 40 million threads started lately.

I almost wish we were back in the days of constant economy/Fianna Fail threads.

*almost*

cowzerp

Just because people stick with what they where brainwashed into from birth does not mean you'll think there stupid but the fact most dont even practise there faith leads me to believe they have there own doubts

Rachiee

I dont think intelligence has anything to do with religious beliefs

I believe in jungs theory of the collective unconcious, completely unprovable but i still believe in it and i would consider myself of average intelligence

believing in something that cant be proven doesnt show a lack of intelligence

people get a lot of comfort and happiness from religion chosing something beneficial for you in itself is basic intellligence.

older generations were less educated about other religions catholisism was presented as fact at an early age then internalised couldnt blame anyone for this they were practically brainwashed.

my family: im spiritual not catholic, my mam holds catholic beliefs but is intelligent and educated enough to recognise the flaws of the bible and the church, my dad is stricter catholic, regular church go-er supports the majority of what the church says but was still intelligent enough to question the church on its belief on homosexuality (after I came out)
Their religious beliefs are just one part of them my dads a mechanic and champion chess player, and my mam has had four poetry book published and raised five amazing intelligent open minded people. love and respect both of them

Monty Burnz

Rachiee wrote: »

my dad is stricter catholic, regular church go-er supports the majority of what the church says but was still intelligent enough to question the church on its belief on homosexuality (after I came out)

Unfortunately, most hidebound religious types don't have a beloved family member spring out of the closet to make them question their homophobia.

pragmatic1

My mother is the only person in my immediate family who is religious. Past generations didnt have as much access to education and information. In addition, the church ruled with an iron fist. Any dissenting voices were hushed and marginalised. Thankfully that day is dead.

Also people are often wrong about things, parents included.

Seachmall

Rachiee wrote: »

I dont think intelligence has anything to do with religious beliefs

It does [PDF] but society and indoctrinating the young has a much greater influence.

Caraville

Downlinz wrote: »

If you believe the church is corrupt + power hungry and that god isn't real.

What does that say about your judgment on the intelligence of your parents, grandparents and other relatives who more than likely devoted so much of their lives to these causes? As a huge part of our society wouldn't it imply you believed they were gullible and naive people to live the way they did? Perhaps weak-willed to stand out from the crowd and question accepted truths?


(p.s. I am an athiest and pondering this question myself. Not looking to start some sort of shame parade or anything)

I can only assume OP, seeing as you didn't give any real opinion yourself, that you thus question the intelligence of religious people?

I have to say, I really hope my atheist friends don't assume that about me as a non-atheist. I would never equate religious beliefs and intelligence- and to be honest, that kind of thinking does nothing for either side of the divide. An atheist should not feel more enlightened for feeling they know the real "truth", nor should a believer feel more enlightened for what they believe to be the real "truth".

To be honest, I find that way of thinking to be a bit big-headed really, as if you've one over on the other side.

Ghost Buster

Downlinz wrote: »

If you believe the church is corrupt + power hungry and that god isn't real.

What does that say about your judgment on the intelligence of your parents, grandparents and other relatives who more than likely devoted so much of their lives to these causes? As a huge part of our society wouldn't it imply you believed they were gullible and naive people to live the way they did? Perhaps weak-willed to stand out from the crowd and question accepted truths?


(p.s. I am an athiest and pondering this question myself. Not looking to start some sort of shame parade or anything)

I dont pass judgement on those who believed the world was flat, that fire was magic, that the stars were their dead relatives or such. I would if they still believed in such . I believed the same as my parents into my late teens and then dabbled with modern Paganism and Wicca. We do have an odd tendency to need this stuff just like salt, fat and sugar and other stuff that we should know better about.

Absurdum

Downlinz wrote: »

What does that say about your judgment on the intelligence of your parents, grandparents and other relatives who more than likely devoted so much of their lives to these causes?

morons

latenia

Downlinz wrote: »

What does that say about your judgment on the intelligence of your parents, grandparents and other relatives who more than likely devoted so much of their lives to these causes? As a huge part of our society wouldn't it imply you believed they were gullible and naive people to live the way they did? Perhaps weak-willed to stand out from the crowd and question accepted truths?


(p.s. I am an athiest and pondering this question myself. Not looking to start some sort of shame parade or anything)

In 100 years' time your knowledge of the world and belief system will be sneered at by a smug know-it-all too.

bleg

Downlinz wrote: »

What does that say about your judgment on the intelligence of your parents, grandparents and other relatives who more than likely devoted so much of their lives to these causes?

nothing.

philologos

Downlinz wrote: »

If you believe the church is corrupt + power hungry and that god isn't real.

These opinions aren't mutually exclusive.

KeithAFC

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

Some of the most religious people I know are the most educated.

That is true. But then people like Dawkins and co have brainwashed a lot of people into thinking they are stupid and lack logic. Shame really.

Monty Burnz

latenia wrote: »

In 100 years' time your knowledge of the world and belief system will be sneered at by a smug know-it-all too.

Such is life. But you can get one up on the smug know-it-all by appreciating the fact, while s/he may not realise the same applies to him/her.

philologos

Standman wrote: »

It's well known that immensely intelligent people can be religious believers. It seems people are well able to compartmentalise their brains when it comes to religion.

Why is compartmentalisation necessary? - Personally, I think belief in God is simply reasonable, I don't see why I need to separate all parts of my life and thinking off from it exactly. I'd go as far as to say that my belief in God actually influences everything else from my work, to my friendships, how I regard my family, how I regard the world around me and so on.

Seachmall

philologos wrote: »

Personally, I think belief in God is simply reasonable

You should read the "Proofs of God" essay by Martin Gardner (he's a theist me thinks).

Here.

^^ Google Books snips out pages, I'll try and find a complete copy.

philologos

Seachmall wrote: »

You should read the "Proofs of God" essay by Martin Gardner (he's a theist me thinks).

Here.

Will do when I get a bit more time. Perhaps with a response as to what I think about it.

Monty Burnz

philologos wrote: »

Why is compartmentalisation necessary?

Well, because in every area of knowledge, you can actually investigate the thing yourself and find that you come to the same conclusion that you've learned. You can do chemistry experiments, and you can do physics experiments. You can visit places to verify that they exist, you can read the primary sources that history is based on. With sufficient resources, you can verify everything.

Except religion. There, it's a case of 'you can't check it, you can't prove it - but trust me'.

Presumably you don't take Muslims, or Hindus, or Buddhists, or Sikhs, or Zoroastrians, or anyone else at their word when they say 'trust me, this is true'. Some of us extend that lack of unquestioning belief to all religions, rather than all but one.

Seachmall

I can see where this is going, see ya at page 26...

Helix

kiddy fiddlers, crusades, gallileo, hitler, nazi pope

that everything out of the way?

philologos

Monty Burnz: I don't see how my belief in God adversely affects my perception of reality. In the case of any belief that I may be inclined to hold, the simple question I ask is is it more reasonable to believe this than not to believe this. In the case of Christianity, I find it more reasonable to believe than not believing in it. Christianity makes inherent sense to me, and that's why I believe in it. Atheism doesn't, my previous state of agnosticism didn't.

The same applies for my political beliefs or beliefs in respect to any other thing. It is also subject to what is more reasonable to believe than not to believe. I think it is important to differentiate a belief from 100% knowledge. A belief is based on looking to what indications suggest that conclusion A may be true over conclusion B, or in the case of multiples C, D, E, F etc. Knowledge is based on what is certifiably so. There is always room for doubt in belief, but there is limited room for doubt in knowledge. I say limited because people can doubt anything if they want to.

Monty Burnz

Helix wrote: »

kiddy fiddlers, crusades, gallileo, hitler, nazi pope

that everything out of the way?

You forgot the Nazi...no, wait, there he is.

RichieC

The older generations were kept in line with fear, not faith.