Freeze on cuts after Croke Park accord

excaliburhc

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0721/1224301063698.html

"THERE ARE to be no further pay cuts for existing public servants and no further compulsory redundancies in any Government department or agency.

In a joint statement yesterday, the Government, the public service committee (representing public service management) and the Irish Congress of Trade Unions disclosed that the progress made in the first full year of the public service (Croke Park) agreement was such that pay rates or forced redundancies for existing public servants will not now have to be addressed.

“These commitments are conditional on the ongoing delivery of the flexibilities set out under the Croke Park agreement, in particular those relating to co-operation with reduction in numbers, redeployment, cost containment and changes to work practices to improve productivity and maintain public services,” said the statement.

One of the major conditions for later this year in the memorandum of understanding with the EU and the International Monetary Fund would have obliged the Government to push through a reduction in the overall public service wage bill if the efficiencies and job reductions projected by Croke Park had not been met.

The statement also said the moratorium on recruitment and promotion would continue. “Large-scale recruitment to the public service will not feature.

“It is envisaged that after a period of operation the moratorium would be adapted to a procedure of setting overall targets and pay averages.”

When the comprehensive review of expenditure spearheaded by Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform Brendan Howlin is completed in the autumn, the Government is committed to further consideration of optimum levels of public servants in each sector.

A steering committee from Mr Howlin’s department is reviewing submissions from each department on expenditure cuts and will produce a final draft by the end of this week.

In early September, senior officials from each department will be required to make a full presentation of their plans to the Government’s economic management council, as part of the preparations for next year’s budget.

Though Mr Howlin has not been willing to reveal the extent of the savings he hopes to achieve in the review, it is expected to run into hundreds of millions of euro."

surprised there has been no mention of this on here or politics.ie.
cant understand the logic behind it , Country is still paying out too much and now all PS are safe from cuts / redunancies.

good to see that absolutely nothing has changed in this country of ours.

is there anywhere to see what changes have occured under the croke park agreement ?

WalterMitty

Politicians are public servants too. Their friends and people they work with every day are public servants too. Turkeys dont vote for xmas or do things to harm their friends/families and coworkers.
the troika will inevitable force pay cuts if deficit cant be otherwise cut enough.
It is sick that hospital consultants and excess HSE management layers are protected by croke park agreement while A&Es are closed across country , wards are closed and waiting lists rise expotentially.
How can we expect to keep our public servants ad welfare recipients best paid in europe whilst running massive deficit and being bailed out by rest europe!
I think they are really leading public servants up the garden path with no pay cuts /reduncies promises. They will sack a load of public servants in end to balance books rather than cut everyones pay, better to have vast majority of public servants happy and productive and a disgruntled minority sacked than a disgruntled majority . Of course if we didnt pay our public servants so highly we could now increase numbers employed by state as we dont actually have a huge number of public servants in most parts of public service.

Sleepy

Is there a freeze on increments too?

No?

What a surprise.

20Cent

Good stuff.

Atilathehun

Pays to have a beard;)

ei.sdraob

excaliburhc wrote: »

is there anywhere to see what changes have occured under the croke park agreement ?

Good question perhaps our resident public servants can perform a little service to the public and point out what progress (if any) has been made under Croke Park

deise blue

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Good question perhaps our resident public servants can perform a little service to the public and point out what progress (if any) has been made under Croke Park

See www.implementationbody.gov.ie - this site links to amongst other info the June 2011 progress report.

2cool4school

super stuff finally a bit of fairness

hopefully if there are enough savings from croke park theyll reverse the pay cuts weve already suffered

but for now this is a reasonable development

fair play

Cookie_Monster

Though Mr Howlin has not been willing to reveal the extent of the savings he hopes to achieve in the review, it is expected to run into hundreds of millions of euro

so a tiny fraction of what actually needs to be saved to balance the books.

Once again the PS get away with a pathetically easy target to meet and nothing will be done about the massive wage bill... fantastic :rolleyes:

Head The Wall

2cool4school wrote: »

super stuff finally a bit of fairness

hopefully if there are enough savings from croke park theyll reverse the pay cuts weve already suffered

but for now this is a reasonable development

fair play

Jesus, how thick are these PS posters. Nothing to see here all is okay bar a multi billion euro deficit.

Do ye really think its a good idea to be believing what politicians tell ye. They're only saying what ye want to hear to keep you quiet.

2cool4school

Head The Wall wrote: »

Jesus, how thick are these PS posters. Nothing to see here all is okay bar a multi billion euro deficit.

Do ye really think its a good idea to be believing what politicians tell ye. They're only saying what ye want to hear to keep you quiet.

they can say what they like once my wages are left alone

nothing thick about wanting your livelihood protected

it doesnt mean im buying what the politicians are saying

a lot of bitterness out there in general for people who are still earning a wage its a typical response - "if im not getting paid a reasonable wage then i dont want anybody getting one" - pathetic

bamboozle

2cool4school wrote: »

super stuff finally a bit of fairness

hopefully if there are enough savings from croke park theyll reverse the pay cuts weve already suffered

but for now this is a reasonable development

fair play

If savings are to be made and reinvested then i would hope they would be directed in a far more equitable manner than reversing the wages of the still over paid public service workers. money being spent facilitating job creation for some of the 400k plus on the dole would be a start, keeping A&E's in hospitals open would also be welcome.

Nody

2cool4school wrote: »

super stuff finally a bit of fairness

hopefully if there are enough savings from croke park theyll reverse the pay cuts weve already suffered

but for now this is a reasonable development

fair play

What savings? Did you miss the thread when the savings were gone through one by one and the conclusion was that actually it amounted to higher costs?

They included as "savings" that no accountant in the world would account as a hard saving. Teachers worked another hour a week, pray tell how much does that save? According to their flawed calculations 1h x number of teachers x hourly salary x 52; in reality? Nothing as the teacher still gets paid the same monthly salary. They included "expected savings in the future from "purchasing at a lower price in 2012" and included that estimated saving in the 2011 realized savings figure.

If anything I'd be worried for 2012 budget because these "savings" will then have to be turned into actual savings instead of paper savings as they are now; guess how well that will go...

fliball123

Nody wrote: »

What savings? Did you miss the thread when the savings were gone through one by one and the conclusion was that actually it amounted to higher costs?

They included as "savings" that no accountant in the world would account as a hard saving. Teachers worked another hour a week, pray tell how much does that save? According to their flawed calculations 1h x number of teachers x hourly salary x 52; in reality? Nothing as the teacher still gets paid the same monthly salary. They included "expected savings in the future from "purchasing at a lower price in 2012" and included that estimated saving in the 2011 realized savings figure.

If anything I'd be worried for 2012 budget because these "savings" will then have to be turned into actual savings instead of paper savings as they are now; guess how well that will go...

There definately needs to be some investigation into this..When you hear OConnor on saying that cuts should infact be reversed...Is this guy living in a parrellel universe that we have money..Were we are not borrowing 18billion to actaully pay PS wages aswell as social welfare and public services..The later two have also been cut. In this parrellel universe were Jack OConnor lives..People in the private sector are all getting pay raises and we must have near 100% employment..Not to mention the opening of more A&Es an No Scandals what so ever in the public sector Domain...I would be wary if I was a PS employee...No doubt people are trying and I give credit were it is due..But its the waisters who cant be fired and those who no longer have a function that need to be addressed. If the PS continue to cut there spend so be it but you cannot expect the private sector via taxes to keep taking the hit its already proving to be counter productive

meditraitor

What % of expenditure on publice/civil service is salary/pensions/overtime/expenses? Anyone?

Thats probably the most important factor when deciding that pay cannot or should be reduced across the board.....

careca11

meditraitor wrote: »

What % of expenditure on publice/civil service is salary/pensions/overtime/expenses? Anyone?

Thats probably the most important factor when deciding that pay cannot or should be reduced across the board.....

Public sector pay is currently running at €16.5bn a year , (figure was quoted in the sunday BP in recent weeks ) ,

Argue the figure all you want , but its SIMPLY unsustainable for this country , cuts are essential ,
and this could work leaving those on the lower end of the pay scale (ie €35,000 and under ) exempt from cuts , then have staggered cuts so the more you earn the deeper the cut.

2cool4school

bamboozle wrote: »

If savings are to be made and reinvested then i would hope they would be directed in a far more equitable manner than reversing the wages of the still over paid public service workers. money being spent facilitating job creation for some of the 400k plus on the dole would be a start, keeping A&E's in hospitals open would also be welcome.

thats a bit unfair we were the first ones to take a cut so we should be the first ones to have the cut reversed thats common sense

fair enough keep the a&es open thats important alright but investing money in the dolers instead of paying back the real workers? i dont think so!

this has been unfair from the start with the ps getting bashed and robbed and its about time some of that was reversed for the sake of fairness

dvpower

2cool4school wrote: »

super stuff finally a bit of fairness

hopefully if there are enough savings from croke park theyll reverse the pay cuts weve already suffered

but for now this is a reasonable development

fair play

There is zero chance that pay cuts will be reversed.
If you read the report of the implementation body, you'll see that most of the savings are procurement savings - there are very few savings from any structural reform. They've basically cut the low hanging fruit by demanding cuts from (private sector) suppliers.

The next phase will be more painful.

2cool4school

Nody wrote: »

What savings?

:rolleyes:

*sigh* the savings made from the changes brought in through the croke park agreement obviously

theres no point in pretending there havent been savings made

Degsy

You wanna save money? Cut the bloody dole so its no longer a lifestyle choice for thousands of people..let working people keep thier wages.

Nody

. Delete (got double posted some how)

fliball123

2cool4school wrote: »

thats a bit unfair we were the first ones to take a cut so we should be the first ones to have the cut reversed thats common sense

fair enough keep the a&es open thats important alright but investing money in the dolers instead of paying back the real workers? i dont think so!

this has been unfair from the start with the ps getting bashed and robbed and its about time some of that was reversed for the sake of fairness

You guys are overpaid even if we were not borrowing 18billion a year....and as for investing in Dolers...its great you can make that statement as the cosy relationship means you and the rest of the PS will never be on it...

Nody

2cool4school wrote: »

:rolleyes:

That sums it up well; you do you have any idea of the so called savings delivered and reported? I have, I've gone through the report but based on your posts in this thread you appear to have no idea what it says.

2cool4school

Nody wrote: »

How about YOU go and read through the savings, correlate them with actual, budget savings? I have, that is why I can save that there are very limited amount of actual savings and a lot of increased costs (i.e. moving person from PS to pension; saving is minimal due to golden parachutes) instead.

i could but i dont think ill bother seeing as my own wages have been cut so i know for sure that savings have been made there

fair play to you for doing it though time well spent no doubt

2cool4school

fliball123 wrote: »

and as for investing in Dolers...its great you can make that statement as the cosy relationship means you and the rest of the PS will never be on it...

i hope youre right

im hopeful that working hard and justifying my employment will keep me off it

Riskymove

Nody wrote: »

(i.e. moving person from PS to pension; saving is minimal due to golden parachutes)

In the case of all the people leaving early, the "golden parachute" would have been paid eventually anyway so is not an extra cost, they only get 10% of it now and the rest at 65 when they would have gotten it anyway

it will also be reduced due to reduced service, meanwhile more than half salary is saved per person between now and 60

Public sector pay is currently running at €16.5bn a year , (figure was quoted in the sunday BP in recent weeks ) , Argue the figure all you want , but its SIMPLY unsustainable for this country , cuts are essential ,

it was €20bn......so a lot is being done to reduce it (note that there were also a number of savings on the net cost as oppossed to gross)

most other areas (notably Social welfare) are increasing

fliball123

2cool4school wrote: »

i hope youre right

im hopeful that working hard and justifying my employment will keep me off it

Maybe you are maybe you are not..I mean look at what quantifies a pay increment in your place...(absolutely nothing)...Do you even realise why people are annoyed at the CPA and whats happening...Its obvious you completely oblivious to whats going on in this country...The fact that turn and say money is being wasted on dolees...The majority of these people were part of the private sector and were paying your wage and this is one of the main reasons why the money is in a minus figure at present so on top of these people losing there job you want to cut more money from them and for trying to help them gain employment....Good Man...No doubt spoungers and people who do not want to contribute by not taking jobs or courses will be targetted according to Harney ..its a damn shame we cannot do the same with the public sector...

bamboozle

2cool4school wrote: »

thats a bit unfair we were the first ones to take a cut so we should be the first ones to have the cut reversed thats common sense

fair enough keep the a&es open thats important alright but investing money in the dolers instead of paying back the real workers? i dont think so!

this has been unfair from the start with the ps getting bashed and robbed and its about time some of that was reversed for the sake of fairness

firstly, savings are being saught as this country is unable to pay the €16.5 billion plus a year to its still over populated and overpaid public service.

secondly, you obviously didnt understand the point i was making, i was suggesting if money were available to be spent that it be spent on creating jobs and getting people off the dole, you seem to forget thousands of 'real workers' have had to go on the dole over the last 3 years and they deserve real jobs before anyone in the PS deserves a red cent extra added to their over inflated wages.

i pay a lot of tax every month and i dont begrudge it going to those who have been forced to join the dole queues over the last 3 years, i do begrudge it going towards pay offs and pension for public service imbeciles like Patrick Neary, Roddy Molloy & their ilk.

Tora Bora

But hasn't Enda and Eamo, both declared over recent weeks that there will be no cuts to PS pay and no cuts to social welfare:rolleyes:
Then on the other hand, Micky Noonan is trying to tell the truth, saying we have commitments to meet with respect to the troika and the bail out deal.

Something has to be cut ............. OR ELSE ............. taxes have to go mad. Simple:eek:

fliball123

Tora Bora wrote: »

But hasn't Enda and Eamo, both declared over recent weeks that there will be no cuts to PS pay and no cuts to social welfare:rolleyes:
Then on the other hand, Micky Noonan is trying to tell the truth, saying we have commitments to meet with respect to the troika and the bail out deal.

Something has to be cut ............. OR ELSE ............. taxes have to go mad. Simple:eek:

There has also been a promise to not tax income anymore..Unfortunately I think a little will be taken from all 3 areas along with the property and water taxes

careca11

Tora Bora wrote: »

But hasn't Enda and Eamo, both declared over recent weeks that there will be no cuts to PS pay and no cuts to social welfare:rolleyes:

Haven't got the balls to tackle the overpaid union Parasites

Degsy

fliball123 wrote: »

Maybe you are maybe you are not..I mean look at what quantifies a pay increment in your place...(absolutely nothing)...Do you even realise why people are annoyed at the CPA and whats happening...Its obvious you completely oblivious to whats going on in this country...The fact that turn and say money is being wasted on dolees...The majority of these people were part of the private sector and were paying your wage and this is one of the main reasons why the money is in a minus figure at present so on top of these people losing there job you want to cut more money from them and for trying to help them gain employment....Good Man...No doubt spoungers and people who do not want to contribute by not taking jobs or courses will be targetted according to Harney ..its a damn shame we cannot do the same with the public sector...

Wellnow its down to the Public Sector to pay the dole for those who couldnt be bothered looking for work...see how many irish people working in the service industries will show you how hard they're trying to "gain employment".

Degsy

careca11 wrote: »

Haven't got the balls to tackle the overpaid union Parasites

The dole scroungers should go on strike..refuse to work and....oh.

fliball123

Degsy wrote: »

The dole scroungers should go on strike..refuse to work and....oh.

Careful what if all the private sector workers went on strike?

jessiejam

Degsy wrote: »

The dole scroungers should go on strike..refuse to work and....oh.

Ya know Degsy, part of me agrees with the second half of this comment. (I think the first part was a bit harsh). The dole should be slashed for those who couldn't be bothered to get up off theirs arses when work was aplenty.
When this country was booming the government kept uping their payments. Why would you bother getting a job back then, you got an 'increment' every budget!......

They should have been cutting them every year, unless there was a genuine reason why they couldn't go to work (illness and the like).

They are the people whos' dole should be cut. Not the poor misfortunes who have lost their jobs in the last 3 years.

femur61

2cool4school wrote: »

:rolleyes:

*sigh* the savings made from the changes brought in through the croke park agreement obviously

theres no point in pretending there havent been savings made

Well I know for one the cost for tendering products/services has reduced drmatically.

femur61

fliball123 wrote: »

Careful what if all the private sector workers went on strike?

Careful I got banned for a day yesterday for suggesting that.

fliball123

Degsy wrote: »

Wellnow its down to the Public Sector to pay the dole for those who couldnt be bothered looking for work...see how many irish people working in the service industries will show you how hard they're trying to "gain employment".

What about the scroungers and numpties in the Public sector getting a wage for doing fcuk all..people in glass houses

fliball123

femur61 wrote: »

Careful I got banned for a day yesterday for suggesting that.

Why would you be banned for that..I know of circles in the private sector actually thinking this way if the ps is left untouched and we are taxed to obliviion also it would be a counter if the ps do strike after they get cuts...Its time to meet this PS/Union force with force (peaceful force do)

jessiejam

fliball123 wrote: »

What about the scroungers and numpties in the Public sector getting a wage for doing fcuk all..people in glass houses

I suppose you could turn that around the other way also and say what about all the people in certain areas in the PS doing 2 peoples jobs staying late without pay etc. Stressed out of their minds. And I am talking about those on the bottom of the scale.
You simply can't paint everyone with the same brush.
Similarly you cant assume all dole claimants are scroungers and wasters, as we all know that is not the case!

fliball123

jessiejam wrote: »

I suppose you could turn that around the other way also and say what about all the people in certain areas in the PS doing 2 peoples jobs staying late without pay etc. Stressed out of their minds. And I am talking about those on the bottom of the scale.
You simply can't paint everyone with the same brush.
Similarly you cant assume all dole claimants are scroungers and wasters, as we all know that is not the case!

And dont forget the private sector people paying your wage who will need to be taxed extra aswell and doing thus said extra hours for less pay aswell as the threat of being maid redundant looming large on their shoulders..I work nearly 60 odd hours a week no OT its just the way things have landed on me..Am my moaning over having a paycut last year with increased hours..NO as I see people who graduated college with me losing their jobs same goes with family members....I aggree you cannot tar everyone with the same brush ..BUT anyone who thinks that the PS should be immune to more cuts are being rediculous..and it will play out there has to be more cuts as the we cannot keep borrowing 18 billion a year

jessiejam

Tell that to the PS worker whos on 23k per year with a wife and 3 kids to support.... don't think he would argree with you

I believe (prob be slaughtered for this) that there should be a higher tax bracket brought in at 48%. I don't think its fair that the medium to low income workers who are keeping this country alfoat may have more cuts, be it public or private sector.

sollar

fliball123 wrote: »

Why would you be banned for that..I know of circles in the private sector actually thinking this way if the ps is left untouched and we are taxed to obliviion also it would be a counter if the ps do strike after they get cuts...Its time to meet this PS/Union force with force (peaceful force do)

So public servants don't pay taxes then?? God thats great news I thought we had to pay taxes too!!

waster81

It was private sector workers that landed us in the sceanrio we are faced with

1. Private sector bankers pushing for increased de regulation
2. Private sector bankers lending out money without looking for relevant paper work
3. Private sector auditors who signed off on the accounts
4. Private sector property developers who pushed up price of development land
5. Private sector employees who were paid huge bonuses etc for short term "profits" they "made"
6. Private sector employees who now whinge and moan about their stupidity not to enter the public service
7. Private sector voters who kept voting in successive governments because they agreed with the tax policies etc
8 Private sector who have ensured through their idiocy that there are nor over 450000 on the register

Nody

jessiejam wrote: »

Tell that to the PS worker whos on 23k per year with a wife and 3 kids to support.... don't think he would argree with you

I believe (prob be slaughtered for this) that there should be a higher tax bracket brought in at 48%. I don't think its fair that the medium to low income workers who are keeping this country alfoat may have more cuts, be it public or private sector.

You are aware that over 80% of all income tax comes from around 10% of the population, yes? If you want to talk about more taxes start with making more then 50% of the population pay any income tax...

Degsy

Banks,Estate Agents,Solicitors,Mortage Brokers,Construction Companies,Property Developers..all private sector concerns and they did a GREAT job of destroying the country.

Teh Private sector is no longer profitable because of short-term greed,lazyness and extreme incompetence..now they wan the people still working to pay for their mistakes..nice try but it wont fly.

Nody

waster81 wrote: »

It was private sector workers that landed us in the sceanrio we are faced with

1. Private sector bankers pushing for increased de regulation
2. Private sector bankers lending out money without looking for relevant paper work
3. Private sector auditors who signed off on the accounts
4. Private sector property developers who pushed up price of development land
5. Private sector employees who were paid huge bonuses etc for short term "profits" they "made"
6. Private sector employees who now whinge and moan about their stupidity not to enter the public service
7. Private sector voters who kept voting in successive governments because they agreed with the tax policies etc

Good thing to know that no public sectors voted, had any unions threatening to strike unless they got salary increases, changed comparison group when shown that they were wrong, had slush funds around for their top brass, insisted on more bloat in the PS or told the government that all was fine when private company experts warned them about the bubble.

See how fun it is to make up statements with out actually bothering with debating?

fliball123

jessiejam wrote: »

Tell that to the PS worker whos on 23k per year with a wife and 3 kids to support.... don't think he would argree with you

I believe (prob be slaughtered for this) that there should be a higher tax bracket brought in at 48%. I don't think its fair that the medium to low income workers who are keeping this country alfoat may have more cuts, be it public or private sector.

Hang on contrary to your post..The top 10% earners pay something like nearly 60/70% of all the tax taken in this country...So your post falls down on that straight away..

We are already at the point of diminishing returns for tax take...People are overtaxed in this country when you include stealth taxes and with the water charges and property tax its going to be more...

As for your 23k person in the ps...well there is sympathy for them any cuts should be done in a measured way...Having said that What about people in the private sector who were on under 30k who are now getting 184 Euros a week on the dole now and who face a cut..The fact is the average pay for the ps was 49k a year that was in 2010/2009 with cuts and with pay increments its probably not a kick in the arse off that...What I dont understand is how the lower paid in the ps are not kicking and screaming for those on say momre than 60% to be hit...not to mention those on PS pensions?

fliball123

sollar wrote: »

So public servants don't pay taxes then?? God thats great news I thought we had to pay taxes too!!

Where did I say that?

Nody

Degsy wrote: »

Banks,Estate Agents,Solicitors,Mortage Brokers,Construction Companies,Property Developers..all private sector concerns and they did a GREAT job of destroying the country.

Teh Private sector is no longer profitable because of short-term greed,lazyness and extreme incompetence..now they wan the people still working to pay for their mistakes..nice try but it wont fly.

Actually private sector is the only sector that is profitable by definition since they don't tax others for their money and have to actually compete for it (I know, it is a foreign concept in the PS to actually have to be competative). Btw do you wish to care to explain the size of HSE HR department? Or why we need to keep on directors of institutions now shut down because we can't make anyone in the PS redundant as a definition of being efficent ala PS style? Only curious you know.

sollar

fliball123 wrote: »

Where did I say that?

We = private sector in your post