High Speed Bullet train crashes in China.

Run_to_da_hills

"At least 32 people died when a high-speed train smashed into a stalled train in front of it in China's eastern Zhejiang province on Saturday, state media said, raising new questions about the safety of the fast-growing rail network.".

India and China are two countries that I would be cautious of any high speed rail travel.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/07/23/uk-china-train-idUKTRE76M27320110723

PseudoFamous

The worrying part about high speed rail in China is the sheer speed they're trying to roll it out. To have such a comprehensive HSR system in such a short time shows us that clearly shortcuts are being taken in the construction. Caused apparently by a lightning strike, there should have been emergency systems in place to ensure all trains on the line are stopped when there's an issue.

Not the first that I've heard as of recent.

Run_to_da_hills

PseudoFamous wrote: »

The worrying part about high speed rail in China is the sheer speed they're trying to roll it out. To have such a comprehensive HSR system in such a short time shows us that clearly shortcuts are being taken in the construction. Caused apparently by a lightning strike, there should have been emergency systems in place to ensure all trains on the line are stopped when there's an issue.

Not the first that I've heard as of recent.

When you compare this to the TGV where there has yet to be a serious accident or fatality in its 30 year history. What the Chinese roll out in one year it would probably have taken the French 10 but at least they got it right.

Lanaier

PseudoFamous wrote: »

The worrying part about high speed rail in China is the sheer speed they're trying to roll it out.

Whereas in Ireland it would simply never be done, and would somehow cost twice it's initial budget.

I can get to my in-laws town in about 30 minutes thanks to a high speed rail line, it's over 100 miles away.

That said, no doubt corners were cut, cutting corners is a way of life here.

PseudoFamous

Lanaier wrote: »

Whereas in Ireland it would simply never be done, and would somehow cost twice it's initial budget.

Why would it be done in Ireland? We have no population centres large enough to be worthwhile to connect by HSR, other than Dublin and MAYBE Belfast. That said, I can't see a market between the two of those cities to make it worthwhile to connect them, whereas in China, there are 160+ cities with a population of over 1m, which justifies the network. When you have to connect that many cities to each other fairly quickly, of course there are going to be dozens of shortcuts taken, many of which will lead to serious accidents.

Lanaier

I was more referring to any big project, not high speed rail specifically.

blorg

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

India and China are two countries that I would be cautious of any high speed rail travel.

You really can't compare these two countries, India is a complete different level of mess. China is closer to Europe than it is to India, IMO.

Run_to_da_hills

blorg wrote: »

You really can't compare these two countries, India is a complete different level of mess. China is closer to Europe than it is to India, IMO.

Sloppy engineering seems to be quite prevalent in both countries along with poor safety standards and little regard to human life compared to the Western World.

Chris_5339762

Imagine Irish Rail running a HSR service. The mind boggles.

Run_to_da_hills

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Imagine Irish Rail running a HSR service. The mind boggles.

Maintaining level crossings would be the biggest issue for them.

CIE

PseudoFamous wrote: »

Why would it be done in Ireland? We have no population centres large enough to be worthwhile to connect by HSR, other than Dublin and MAYBE Belfast. That said, I can't see a market between the two of those cities to make it worthwhile to connect them, whereas in China, there are 160+ cities with a population of over 1m, which justifies the network. When you have to connect that many cities to each other fairly quickly, of course there are going to be dozens of shortcuts taken, many of which will lead to serious accidents

How about tilt trains running on the existing railways then? They have them running in Sweden (a country with a population density that's lower than Ireland's; one terminus, Arvika, has a population of about 14,000, and Falun about 36,000, for example), and in Germany between Berlin and Hamburg (the ICE-T has a top speed of 143 mph and achieves an average speed of 118 mph on this route, and that's mixed in with freight and commuter trains).

ArphaRima

China is a developing country. Corruption corruption corruption. That's what messes everything up at every stage. They easily have the expertise, money and resources to pull off a very safe world-class system.

Quite a lot of national pride went into their rail network and now this crash has proven it's business as usual. Nobody will blink in China. The project has already been mired in controversy over yes, corruption. The top speed from Shanghai to Beijing has been reduced from its planned level due to whistleblowing engineers talking to the media about their safety concerns.

As for HSR in Ireland I would at most support the tilted trains like the Swedish S2000 service. I took that a few years ago and was extremely impressed. I'm just not sure a country the size of Ireland needs to spend that much on rail. Perhaps with a natural fleet replacement over time we will make the transition.

PseudoFamous

CIE wrote: »

How about tilt trains running on the existing railways then?

Our rails can't cope with 100km/h at the moment, putting extra weight (hydraulics and other equipment relating to tilting adds extra weight, I believe) and speed onto our rails would be a terrible idea. Our tracks and foundations (is that term usable in this context?) would have to be replaced on many lines to be able to handle tilt trains.

CIE

PseudoFamous wrote: »

Our rails can't cope with 100km/h at the moment, putting extra weight (hydraulics and other equipment relating to tilting adds extra weight, I believe) and speed onto our rails would be a terrible idea. Our tracks and foundations (is that term usable in this context?) would have to be replaced on many lines to be able to handle tilt trains.

AFAICS, the maximum weight per axle for the ICE-T is 12,500 kg, a great deal lighter than any of the diesel engines that run or ran on Irish Rail, and not bad for a tilting EMU that runs that fast; also 21 percent lighter per axle than the 22000 class (15,750 kg per axle). The only problem with this particular type of trainset is the length of the cars (85 feet for centre cars and 90 feet for end cars).

Run_to_da_hills

China sacks officials after fatal train crash.

Three of China's senior railway officials have been sacked following a high-speed train crash that left 35 people dead, state media said.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia-pacific/2011/07/201172415455225386.html

purplepanda

Tilting high speed trains & Irish Rail? I've heard it all now LOL! :eek:

They can't run a decent frequency service with the brand new trains & track upgrades paid for by the taxpayer over the last 5-10 years never mind a modern 21st century standard rail network :rolleyes:


Abolish this complete mess of an organisation & let private overseas rail companies have full access & rights to run services on the rail network ASAP

Run_to_da_hills

The MK4's sort of tilt.

CIE

purplepanda wrote: »

Tilting high speed trains & Irish Rail? I've heard it all now LOL! :eek:

They can't run a decent frequency service with the brand new trains & track upgrades paid for by the taxpayer over the last 5-10 years never mind a modern 21st century standard rail network :rolleyes:

Abolish this complete mess of an organisation & let private overseas rail companies have full access & rights to run services on the rail network ASAP

Sure, anyone but private domestic rail companies, right? They can't change the law to allow that, I see.

And as for the status quo, is it "can't" or "won't"?

Nobody thought it funny that Mark 3s were bought but no 125-mph locomotives to haul them. That is interesting...(and that's aside from the fact that "real" Mark 4s were supposed to run at 140 mph and have a tilting variant)

foggy_lad

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The MK4's sort of tilt.

So do barges on the canal:D anyone got a sick bag?

bk

Anyone else thing it's nuts that Irish Rail has spent almost 500 million on new carriages in the last 5 years and they actually go slower then they did 20 years ago!!

We will be stuck with these crap carriages for the next 30 years, so you can forget about tilting trains.

Resi12

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

India and China are two countries that I would be cautious of any high speed rail travel.

Why would you be cautious of China, half the stuff you use is from there! The HP laptop I'm using to reply to this was made from there.

You cannot compare India to China.

Run_to_da_hills

Resi12 wrote: »

Why would you be cautious of China, half the stuff you use if from there! Teh HP laptop I'm using to reply to this was made from there.

You cannot compare India to China.

This topic is in connection with high speed rail transportation and not consumer goods.

blorg

Singling out China and India makes no sense given the former's general level of development and competence compared to the latter.

Saying you would be wary of high speed rail anywhere outside the Western/developed world would make more sense- don't imagine there are other countries outside the West which you would trust more than China? Including Japan/S Korea in the developed world here obviously.

Would you trust a Russian train above a Chinese one? I wouldn't (although I'd be perfectly happy to ride on one, the risk put in context is minimal.)

kingshankly

it's amazing how people use a thread on a disastrous accident in china to take a pop at Irish rail

PseudoFamous

Resi12 wrote: »

Why would you be cautious of China, half the stuff you use is from there! The HP laptop I'm using to reply to this was made from there.

Actually, your laptop was made in Taiwan, which is also known as China in some instances. However, Quanta computers in Taipei are the mass manufacturers of HP, Dell, Apple, Acer, any computer company you can think of. Only thing that really separates your computer from any other is the brandname. India and the People's Republic of China (The real China) are easily comparable, because they both manufacture cheap things, have an uncontrollable population, and have terrible infrastructure.

ArphaRima

Actually, your laptop was made in Taiwan, which is also known as China in some instances

Known as China by the Chinese and allies of China. Not by the stamp on the laptop itself. Actually Taiwanese companies are performing well at the moment for the very reason that they've outsourced to China.

Pseudofamous you obviously havent been to China if you say their infrastructure is "terrible"! East and Southern China is unparalleled in the number of highways, shipping and railways. Crashing commuter trains aside, they are leagues ahead of Ireland and catching up fast with the best in Western Europe.

China doesnt just make cheap childrens toys and Nike runners. That was perhaps 20 years ago. Having been to enormous Chinese universities churning out specialist graduates in various fields I know that they are not expecting a career in Zhang Wou counterfeit Lego industries.
Dell have abandoned Ireland. They are entrenched in China. In fact China is becoming perhaps too costly for the major internationals, especially in the Southeastern coastal areas. Vietnam and India are doing quite well from rising Chinese labour costs and an increasingly obstinate and unpredictable government and legal system.

PseudoFamous

fluffer wrote: »

Pseudofamous you obviously havent been to China if you say their infrastructure is "terrible"! East and Southern China is unparalleled in the number of highways, shipping and railways. Crashing commuter trains aside, they are leagues ahead of Ireland and catching up fast with the best in Western Europe.

I have been to China, and the potholes in some of the motorways sort of indicated to me that despite the infrastructure being in place, it was not maintained properly by any country's standard. We left the motorway at one point, and came across a dirt track. A dirt track was connected to a motorway. I had pictures of this oddity where the junction turned suddenly from being surfaced to unsurfaced, but my camera was stolen.

fluffer wrote: »

Dell have abandoned Ireland. They are entrenched in China. In fact China is becoming perhaps too costly for the major internationals, especially in the Southeastern coastal areas. Vietnam and India are doing quite well from rising Chinese labour costs and an increasingly obstinate and unpredictable government and legal system.

Unsure what you're trying to show here other than an unstable country. And despite you mentioning the number of graduates from universities, you failed to mention the masses in extreme poverty.

ArphaRima

I think you have ignored the fundamentals and instead focused on the negatives. Yes China is corrupt. It's a communist government that is riddled with officials that fill their own pockets with no accountability whatsoever. If people get prosecuted its because they lost the protection of other corrupt officials for whatever reason.

China is a developing country.

Your example of a motorway ending in a dirt track is a relatively tame example of how China is a multipolar society with a huge gap between rich and poor.
I know why the road ends in a dirt track and why the surface is fecked after a week, but its only one facet of why corruption drags everyone down.

But dont write them off for their faults. The rich regions hold immense power, wealth, skills and ambition. They can and will drive China (however inequally) onwards, dragging up the poorer provinces out of poverty. The poverty figures support this.
It's not even a case of "watch this space". It's happening right now.

blorg

@PseudoFamous- you have clearly never been to India if you think it is a similar country to China. They are both developing countries with large populations; that is where the similarity ends. You complain about the motorways in China… India has 200km of motorway in a country of over a billion. No high speed rail, flawed or not. Or even toilets, in many villages. They are opposite ends of the scale as far as developing countries go.

China has a GDP per capita over three times that of India. It exports six times as much as India. It is substantially more developed. It is also substantially more autocratic, more repressive, more censoring, more organised, and less corrupt (it is not difficult to be less corrupt than India.)

Your suggestion that everything marked "Made in China" is actually made in Taiwan (ROC) is laughable. Where do you think Quanta and other Taiwanese manufacturers do the actual manufacturing? In their factories on the mainland. If it says “Made in China” it is made in the PRC.

India has failed to curb its population growth and will overtake China in population in the next few decades. China has controlled it (through an autocratic one child policy) and the population is forecast to decrease.

In India the infrastructure is a shambles; in China the roads are far better as are the railways. The roads and railways I have been on are better than Ireland for that matter. I took a 2,500km train journey last week and it was a pleasure. A dirt track leading off a motorway? India has National Highways that are dirt tracks FFS.

Very different countries.

CIE

bk wrote: »

Anyone else thing it's nuts that Irish Rail has spent almost 500 million on new carriages in the last 5 years and they actually go slower then they did 20 years ago!!

We will be stuck with these crap carriages for the next 30 years, so you can forget about tilting trains

If anyone besides myself and yourself holds this view, they'll have to speak up. As far as the trainspotters are concerned, they cheered on the ill-conceived capital purchases of this rolling stock and they're just worried about what they can take photographs of.

fluffer wrote: »

I think you have ignored the fundamentals and instead focused on the negatives. Yes China is corrupt. It's a communist government that is riddled with officials that fill their own pockets with no accountability whatsoever. If people get prosecuted its because they lost the protection of other corrupt officials for whatever reason.

China is a developing country.

Your example of a motorway ending in a dirt track is a relatively tame example of how China is a multipolar society with a huge gap between rich and poor.
I know why the road ends in a dirt track and why the surface is fecked after a week, but its only one facet of why corruption drags everyone down.

But don't write them off for their faults. The rich regions hold immense power, wealth, skills and ambition. They can and will drive China (however inequally) onwards, dragging up the poorer provinces out of poverty. The poverty figures support this.
It's not even a case of "watch this space". It's happening right now.

That last paragraph reads like Maoist propaganda.

ArphaRima

That last paragraph reads like Maoist propaganda.

I live in China and have read Chinese history. Maoism has nothing to do with what I said. I am saying that China's growth continues to draw millions out of poverty whether directly or not. It is broadly a positive path they have been on the last 20 years.

The choices are to continue on this path of startling modernity or to withdraw from the world again. The liberals are broadly in power now. The conservatives would close China once more to the world if they regained sway within the party.

China's last revolution in 1949 promised to end the inequality. They were the communist party.

High speed rail is a symbol of that modernity and therefore centre stage to the argument. Back on topic here is a translation of the Chinese netizen reactions to both the crash and the apparent cover-up:
http://www.chinasmack.com/2011/stories/chinese-reactions-to-governments-handling-of-wenzhou-train-accident.html
http://www.chinasmack.com/2011/videos/wenzhou-high-speed-train-crash-aftermath-5-most-viewed-videos.html

Also as an aside India is by-and-large relying on the airline transport network for its modern infrastructure. With little success.

CIE

Maoism has nothing to do with what I said

Sounds just like what Mao wanted to achieve with his "Great Leap Forward".

China's growth continues to draw millions out of poverty whether directly or not. It is broadly a positive path they have been on the last 20 years

You sure it's altogether a positive path? It's only possible with doing business with Western nations with whom they share no ideology. And China's more focussed on building up their military than too much else; their liberal wing only exists for propaganda purposes (have a look at their recent military marches, where Hu Jintao wears the Zhongshan).

ArphaRima

A famine caused by agricultural collectivisation is probably not on the cards with the current plan.

They are not

doing business with Western nations with whom they share no ideology

They have modified their ideology to survive. That much is obvious. Now it is more of a socialist path than a pure communist path. Communism was blatantly failing after they saw the USSR collapse.

Yeah I saw that parade live on TV.
And Hu Jintao is one of the liberals. The conservatives are a powerful part of the party, but at the moment the liberals hold the major posts. A change in leadership is due soon. Wearing the military gear is part of playing to the domestic audience. It's more China's style to hide strength and feign weakness. Russian style parades of strength etc are just to placate his opponents.

Oh and China is now spending more on domestic security than on defence. That should tell you something about their ambitions. They are far more concerned about the threats from within than elsewhere. Any moves against Taiwan will be for grandstanding to the domestic audience. Give the Chinese a vote and they would invade Taiwan. Maybe even attack Japan and Vietnam.

dowlingm

jebus enough with the political ideology nonsense.

does anyone have hard fact on what signalling system was on this stretch of line? If it was a certified ETCS system that would be a concern, but did they cheap out and roll their own?

CIE

dowlingm wrote: »

jebus enough with the political ideology nonsense

Even if it is a root cause of what happened?

I don't see what the patriarch of the Jebusites has to do with it myself.

dowlingm wrote: »

does anyone have hard fact on what signalling system was on this stretch of line? If it was a certified ETCS system that would be a concern, but did they cheap out and roll their own?

Do you think we'll get an honest answer from the regime there...? Best answer we'll get is out of whistleblowers, if and/or when they speak out.

dowlingm

According to railwaygazette, a 16-car CRH1B was hit from behind by a 16-car CRH2E. 1600 people on board between the two consists. Line speed 250km/h although the actual speed limit in the section is not specified.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/first-fatal-crash-on-chinese-high-speed-line.html

Wiki:
CRH1B: Bombardier/Sifang
CRH2E: Shinkansen derived design.

Lanaier

PseudoFamous wrote: »

I have been to China, and the potholes in some of the motorways sort of indicated to me that despite the infrastructure being in place, it was not maintained properly by any country's standard. We left the motorway at one point, and came across a dirt track. A dirt track was connected to a motorway. I had pictures of this oddity where the junction turned suddenly from being surfaced to unsurfaced...

Oh wow....:pac:

Cookie_Monster

PseudoFamous wrote: »

We left the motorway at one point, and came across a dirt track. A dirt track was connected to a motorway. I had pictures of this oddity where the junction turned suddenly from being surfaced to unsurfaced, but my camera was stolen.

wow, just like here or any other country. The UAE you can just turn off the motorway, not even at a junction and drive out along desert tracks...

Come off the M11 at Fassaroe and you can turn off into unpaved fields (one example)

lucernarian

This chinese highway runs through the most economically-backwards part of China but nonetheless shows an example of unpaved road in its national road network. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_National_Highway_209

Lanaier

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

This chinese highway runs through the most economically-backwards part of China but nonetheless shows an example of unpaved road in its nationa road network. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_National_Highway_209

The interesting part about that is that there is an national highway now in that area.

Run_to_da_hills

Chinese Officials Blame Design Flaws with signalling system in Deadly Train Crash

kind of obvious from the beginning.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/28/world/asia/28trains.html

CIE

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Chinese Officials Blame Design Flaws with signalling system in Deadly Train Crash

kind of obvious from the beginning.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/28/world/asia/28trains.html

That debunks their "lightning" claim for disabling the train in front. Figured they wouldn't get their excuses straight.

Run_to_da_hills

CIE wrote: »

That debunks their "lightning" claim for disabling the train in front. Figured they wouldn't get their excuses straight.

Even if it was a lightening strike that disabled the first train, it should have had a back up system that kicked in immediately.

I'm sure the French have several warning systems including automated shut downs if one train gets too close to another. .

dowlingm

apparently they don't use ETCS on the line but something "similar"
http://www.railwaygazette.com/index.php?id=44&no_cache=1&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=13716&cHash=0e57fd7a2a