Why is so much of the Irish built environment so ugly?

dilbert2

Granted we have some nice buildings in historical areas in cities and some towns, nobody would deny that, but for the most part – why is the Irish built environment so horrible and bleak? Whether trekking through rural Ireland, or the vast suburban expanses of our cities, everything from building layout, to the use of materials just comes across as tacky with little beauty, and where builders have put up houses, such as in the vast housing estates throughout the 90s and 2000s, most seem built cheaply and meanly with little emphasis on homeliness or design, even where people forked out 300-500,000 for their homes.

Having just returned from Switzerland, while they have indeed ugly buildings like any country, it is no way the majority of the built environment. So what is up with Ireland and ugly and/ or tacky buildings and built environments. Doesn’t anybody find these places depressing – particularly the vast, empty feeling housing estates throwin up by developers for nearly two decades, and wish for something more?

gigino

Good point. As a continental visitor said to me recently, any nice buildings there are in the country the British built for us before they left.

7sr2z3fely84g5

We couldnt had built houses fast enough,funniest was after the boom was over they decided to bring in law forbidding building in flood risk areas :rolleyes:

Also there would had being many objections to bring multi national retailers like ASDA to come to ireland but yet no objection to building houses in the most stupidest places known to man.

mike65

Some of the worst planning regulations in the developed world, corruption, relative poverty, 800 years (have to stick that one for the usual suspects).

oppenheimer1

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. While I won't argue that there is some awful architecture out there, there are multiple reasons for it. Our colonial past has much to do with it. While Dublin was the second city of the empire, architecture flourished but post that period building and architecture went into decline... Many of the states neo classical fine buildings were built before the act of union. In other instances they were funded semi-directly by the british. Private and public wealth didn't exist up until recently to fund pretty buildings really. Many of the large buildings constructed in the boom are quite nice, particularly the civic ones. Have a look at the decentralised offices for the government around the country, little expense was spared in their consrtuction.

Irelands built heritage suffers from its past which for the most part was poor. Poor places build functional structures that are rarely aesthetically pleasing. As for the monotonous estates, thats just down to bad planning and greed.

Downlinz

dilbert2 wrote: »

where builders have put up houses, such as in the vast housing estates throughout the 90s and 2000s, most seem built cheaply and meanly with little emphasis on homeliness or design, even where people forked out 300-500,000 for their homes.

Why did they do this? Because people were willing to pay 300-500k for a house the contractors had built hundreds of time before with no unique features or architectural challenges. In switzerland the market looks for more character in their houses and decorate it better as well.

As to why that is I'd argue its down to such a shifting population because of a history of mass emigration, mass immigration and urban sprawl. The number of long standing family homes is low in Ireland, with a view of houses not being for life theres far less interest in putting the effort in.

Solnskaya

Simply put, it comes down to money. It's much quicker to throw up a square box with a roof and get it opened and doing business as quickly as possible. To build using attractive(and that usually means traditional)materials is slow and expensive and so whatever your building won't be open or occupied for a loooong time until finished. The bankster funding the development want it thrown up, open and bringing in either rent or cashflow asap so the borrowed capital starts getting repayed.
Imagine heading into the bank-"I've a great idea, I want to build a cut stone and mullioned traditional style building to house my new business, it will take ten years to complete and cost about €10 million at least_hows that idea grab you Mr bank manager".

Redlion

Go visit some of the urban areas of Poland, South Africa, Los Angeles etc.. and come back with a new definition of "bleak" and "horrible".

mike65

Also a huge amount of the built environment in Ireland was thrown together in two distinct phases - the 50/60s with its usually hideous "brutalist" ethic and the so called Celtic Tiger when sheer speed was the first concern.

dr gonzo

gigino wrote: »

Good point. As a continental visitor said to me recently, any nice buildings there are in the country the British built for us before they left.

I can understand that it might appear that way but its not true really. For example theres a number of highly regarded Irish palladian buildings that were designed by Irish architects, such as the houses of parliament (now BoI) college green which was designed by Edward Lovatt Pearce.

Mr. Denton

All the best buildings in Ireland were built under British Rule.

Redlion

Mr. Denton wrote: »

All the best buildings in Ireland were built under British Rule.

Personally, I beg to differ.

Mr. Denton

Redlion wrote: »

Personally, I beg to differ.

You were going well until you included the white elephant in Dublin 4.

TheZohanS

Redlion wrote: »

Personally, I beg to differ.

Victoria Square...hmm...Belfast.

Redlion

Mr. Denton wrote: »

You were going well until you included the white elephant in Dublin 4.

Having worked there, it's hard not to appreciate the architecture of the place. It's been built to such a high standard. The growing number of awards its been receiving in the past year prove that.

TheZohan wrote: »

Victoria Square...hmm...Belfast.

Damn, I've been outed!

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Ireland is in no way a particularly attractive or scenic nation.

patneve2

Agree with the OP. The built environment in Ireland is of an extremely low standard. Cheapness, tackiness and bad taste is rampant (with some exceptions though). It's quite understandable though, Ireland was isolated for such a long time so ideas definitely weren't whizzing around the place as they were on the Continent (loads of nations grouped together=more ideas being exchanged and spread around). I really can't see how people can defend the Irish Built Environment, the truth is that it's of a very low standard (and as said before there as some exceptions).

Hank_Jones

I would think the housing developments built during the Celtic Tiger are generally shoddy.

Taking the Ballymun regeneration as an example, which (I'll stand corrected) is said to have cost €900 million and looks terrible.

Was driving through it for the first time in a few years a while back and it looks grotty, a lot of the new buildings look filthy and run down.

All to do with builders cutting corners me thinks.

Nolanger

dilbert2 wrote: »

So what is up with Ireland and ugly and/ or tacky buildings and built environments.

Ugly buildings for ugly people.

Yakult

I agree OP. I always think the same when I'm driving around. Such laziness and lack of organization.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Ireland is in no way a particularly attractive or scenic nation.

Could not disagree with you more.
Cant speak for anywhere else in Ireland but come to Kerry and I'll show you attractive/scenic area's that most people don't even know about.

Latchy

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Ireland is in no way a particularly attractive or scenic nation.

It has it's scenery that's attributed to nature which unlike it's ugly buildings is not man made .

mconigol

Boards needs an Ireland Bashing forum.

patneve2

Latchy wrote: »

It has it's scenery that's attributed to nature which unlike it's ugly buildings is not man made .

You're right there but a lot of beauty in Ireland is actually man made. Theoretically Ireland would be an overgrown forest if humans never had an impact on the environment. Farming and grazing etc is the only reason Ireland is so green and has lovely flowing valleys etc...At the same time though Cliffs of Moher Ring of Kerry etc... are obviously all beautiful products of nature

Mance Rayder

It's this move towards the "modern" thats ruining Irish architectures classical beauty. What I would like to know is who the hell commisioned this:
Sean O'Casey Community Centre

http://www.ddda.ie/files/newsevents/images/20090206110910_0851-07.JPG

Its ugly and does nothing for the appearance of East wall. I wish the council would keep the experimental architecture to themselves and not force it upon residents. Compare that dodgey cheese building to the nearby Sheriff st Church (Dont know actual name) http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4005/4610226780_e74d6696e3.jpg , Its a stunning building.

Ireland should play up to it's neo-classical and historical buildings by keeping with this style.

Ballymun regeneration is ugly, although a damn site better then it was before.

NufcNavan

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Ireland is in no way a particularly attractive or scenic nation.

Well that just means you're wrong, twice.

gbee

I would not exactly agree that they are ugly, cheap, glaringly, nasty too many reports of problems, seems endemic, nasty seems proven.

Ugly no, not really, it's just that every block in every town city village cross road all look the same now. Erm, many ugly was the right word!

krudler

come to Limerick, where Brown Thomas on O'Connell St is the ugliest building in Ireland, its like something from 70's Soviet Russia

Mr. Denton

CiscoStudent wrote: »

It's this move towards the "modern" thats ruining Irish architectures classical beauty. What I would like to know is who the hell commisioned this:
Sean O'Casey Community Centre

http://www.ddda.ie/files/newsevents/images/20090206110910_0851-07.JPG

That's absolutely horrible. The pix doesn't even do it justice. Check streetview to see what a mess it is.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Sean+O'Casey+Community+Centre,+Dublin,+Ireland&hl=en&ll=53.352844,-6.234097&spn=0,0.011362&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=46.812293,93.076172&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=53.352778,-6.23395&panoid=iWcI8MWjswnoSh7tFZvxdg&cbp=12,347.35,,0,-19.24

Cuddlesworth

Hank_Jones wrote: »

I would think the housing developments built during the Celtic Tiger are generally shoddy.

Taking the Ballymun regeneration as an example, which (I'll stand corrected) is said to have cost €900 million and looks terrible.

Was driving through it for the first time in a few years a while back and it looks grotty, a lot of the new buildings look filthy and run down.

All to do with builders cutting corners me thinks.

Having worked on three of those estates I can safely say there were no corners cut. The estates were built of a much higher standard then any others I worked on, great use of space and light with a relatively low density compared to other sites I was on at the time. Perks like cobblestone streets, proper joinery made high quality wooden windows and outside touches like good two and three tone material and colour finishing with solid fencing.

They were beautiful pieces of work right up until the Ballymun people moved in. Although a lucky few managed to get into the fringe estates which avoided the worst of the attitude.

gbee

Those were truly fantastic flats. I was privileged to when new. My brother's wife from Inchicore and some of her family moved into one of those tower blocks.

It was amazing, the facilities were space age ~ in the recent Celtic tiger they'd have sold for two million each.

I never understood who these flats were given away.

One of those towers was not destroyed though, it popped up in Cork and is called the Elysian. €300,000 for a one bed pad? Luxury and local government just gave similar AWAY????????????

Boxoffrogs

I think Ireland is a beautiful country naturally. Our coastline, particularly to the west is just stunning. We have fantastic cities with some outstanding architecture. I do prefer the buildings of old though. I'm not to fond of too much glass and chrome anywhere outside of office buildings. However all that I could live with.

For me the real eye sores are the kinds of developments which pop up whenever a council has any involvement, i.e. community centres, leisure centres, social housing. From what we know, top dollar is paid to build all these and yet they look hideous. They literally scream COUNCIL. Usually tacky looking, a mess of glass and metal, and colours that make your head spin. There is a place between Lucan and Clondalkin, whenever I'm driving by it, I can't look any more, it's that hideous.

gbee

Boxoffrogs wrote: »

They literally scream COUNCIL.

More accurately they scream unelected City Manager and cushy, lazy civil servants who don't give a dam.

Councils changed every 5 years, the driving force does not, the civil servants who are, as mentioned already NOT ELECTED and Not accountable.

Clareboy

Yes, there is an awful tackiness, an ugliness and a vulgarity about the Irish built environment, but it was not always like that. I live in a village that has several housing schemes that were built in the 1950s and they are far supieror in design to those built in more recent times. Since the 1950s, we have lost all sense of good design and aesthetics. All over Ireland, there is a depressing sameness about the new houses even down to the design of the door knockers. From Cork to Donegal, its the same gaudy bungalows and vulgar mini mansions that blight the landscape.

7sr2z3fely84g5

Why did every FF gov contracts on building something always go over budget or delayed?.

landsleaving

gbee wrote: »

More accurately they scream unelected City Manager and cushy, lazy civil servants who don't give a dam.

Why would we need a dam?

oppenheimer1

Daniel Loud Memoir wrote: »

Why did every FF gov contracts on building something always go over budget or delayed?.

What a lazy, ignorant comment to make. You obviously lack an understanding of the construction industry, particularly construction contract law. Almost all projects that have been given under the new fixed price contract have come in on time and under budget since they forced contractors to bid realistic prices for their work. (The old way was to bid the lowest best case scenario and put in claims for deviations and unexpected works, which always carried a premium price).

In any case tendering is outside the remit of elected government structures and is carried out by the independent civil service.

gbee

landsleaving wrote: »

Why would we need a dam?

To stop the brain flowing out an away, to prevent brainlessness, you'd need a dam. But in all honesty, the civil service in local authorities have been a disgrace; all those not in the Fire Service, Army, Guards or Prison Officers should be ashamed ~

DonkeyStyle \o/

How about those apartments in Courtown? So horribly unsuitable for what was once a place with a lot of charm (street view)
I can't fathom why something like that was approved.
Meanwhile, down the road, sitting in this state for years - ( street view )

ricman

As posted before the new houses, apartments are built to a high standard
in ballymun,theres at least 6 different architects ,styles used ,as opposed to the old way ,build 500 houses , all which look the same.They are designed to a high spec ,better than many of the private apartments built in the boom ,and they are much larger than a standard apartment.The council had committees, and consulted with local residents about all the designs .I notice many apartment blocks ,with retail space on the ground floor,which is empty.In dublin most areas have enough shops already.Its strange the architecture of
the victorian era is much more attractive than most modern buildings,most apartments are just built cheaply with no regard for style,using basic materials.The thing that annoys me is modern art,sculptures, which look like random block shapes, many of which just get used for graffiti.I,m sure its possible to design art that s graffiti proof ,by using certain materials,do the planners even think of this in the planning stage.

MadsL

landsleaving wrote: »

Why would we need a dam?

Apparantly we do

dr gonzo

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Ireland is in no way a particularly attractive or scenic nation.

In fairness every nationality in the world (bar the French) say that about their own country.

mconigol wrote: »

Boards needs an Ireland Bashing forum.

Boards IS an Ireland bashing forum. Also religion bashing forum annnd maybe a little bit of Israel bashing for good measure. I'd say attacks on these three entities make up the majority of threads, in AH anyway.

Tesco Massacre

And let's not forget the civic offices on Wood Quay. The government and architects involved had the opportunity to design something which might have been aesthetically pleasing and perhaps had some imagination or flair as well. Instead they went ahead and built something that not only makes no concessions to the surrounding area(i.e. it looks like it's been dropped onto the city), it also looks like something the Germans would have shot out of at Normandy.

Congrats, dip****s.

conorhal

Redlion wrote: »

Personally, I beg to differ.

A neon beercan.
An ode to the 70's wood pannel lounge
A grey box
A bedpan
And a Bond villans lair.

That's the best of Irish architecture?

dr gonzo

Tesco Massacre wrote: »

it also looks like something the Germans would have shot out of at Normandy.

So true, plus the archaeological implications of that build. I mean, i suppose its fitting that the civic offices would be built in the exact location where Dublin was born but it doesnt change the fact that our own government deliberately destroyed, arguably, the most significant Viking site in Europe at the time because they liked the spot.

In saying all that it was excavated professionally and thoroughly as far as im aware but it still feels wrong, and a lost opportunity.

professore

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Our colonial past has much to do with it.

Don't know how you can say this as the vast majority of the ugliness was built WELL AFTER independence.

Sergeant

It seemed you couldn't throw up a building in Galway during the Celtic Tiger without having to clad the thing in green copper. GMIT is an impressive looking building (in my opinion), but some of the newer buildings represent the very worst of modern planning and design.

conorhal

professore wrote: »

Don't know how you can say this as the vast majority of the ugliness was built WELL AFTER independence.

Indeed, the 'brutalist' vandalism of Georgian Dublin that took place during the 60's and 70's carries much of the blame for the mess they city is in, we were in such haste to prove what a modern, post-colonial country we were that we utterly destroyed much of our streetscapes. Naturally we followed it up with cultural vandalism during the 80's with Wood Quay and completed the trifecta with some economic vandalism that saw suburban sprawl and substandard development thrown up in our unseemly haste to ensure everybody owned three houses.

professore

It always amazed me that anything that in the countryside was not a one story rectangular block with optional Doric pillars and painted either white, yellow or bare plaster was deemed "not native to the environment" and refused planning.

Also the fear of anything over 3 stories until recently was only exceeded by the rush to skyscraper like developments at the end of the Celtic Tiger.

What strikes me about Ireland is that if you go just about anywhere the housing all looks the same - ugly and unimaginative - unless it's some of the nice classy timeless stuff the British built. A bit off topic, but as I have gotten older and escaped to some extent the brainwashing of Catholic Ireland I have seen more and more that the British, whilst they had their faults, did a lot of good for Ireland that we subsequently rejected - like tearing up all the tram lines - now there was a dumb move!

I suppose every teenager goes through a rebellious phase as part of the process of growing up, although Ireland now resembles the youth who had the perfect car, job and wife, blew it all and is now a bum.

EDIT: Sometimes two story rectangular blocks also got planning.

jumpguy

By and large, I agree with the OP. But then again, one must remember that Ireland had only been relatively prosperous since the 90's, so the amount of disgusting, tacky architecture isn't surprising to anyone, and isn't really an "Irish" thing, but a historical-poverty thing.

I think there's a few different types of ugly building in Ireland. The first is the ugly, antiquated colonial-era buildings that are small, with small windows and look prone to collapse at any moment. They're in small, rural areas everywhere in the country. While they have a historical value, they're an eyesore from an architecture point of view, in my opinion.

Then you've the Celtic-tiger era stuff that flew up in no time - dour-looking hotels and tacky, sprawling (and these days, mostly abandoned) housing estates. For the hotels, it's clear whatever architect was designing it just designed it so it could be put up as fast as possible. Boring, plain, rectangular buildings. The housing estates are just poorly designed, and have soaked up so much scenery that used to be available. They're like monuments of our greed during the Celtic Tiger now.

Rantan

I think the power of local councilors/local politicians has has a lot to do with this....planners get an awful lot of stick but from my experience the majority of bad decisions were not made by planners but at a level above them and usually by greasy haired gombeen men who accused any one who thought that the latest eyesore was a blot on the landscape of being a tree hugger, hippy etc
most small towns in Ireland have had their charm and character destroyed and are full of examples of buildings that openly contravene numerous planning regulations but still managed to get built. I think there is a shameful lack of municipal pride in Ireland - the majority of my mates, peers etc dont give a f** about theses matters.