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Galling behavior regarding Somalia

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  • #32
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    Magic Beans wrote: »
    For 10 bonus points, who put Saddam in power?
    who put Hitler in power ? :D


  • #33
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    walshb wrote: »
    Indeed,

    There are plenty of people in these countries that are well fed, and healthy; why don't they help those who aren't? That is what most civilised human beings would do.
    What? Turn our back on starving human beings because they're not in our back yard?:eek:


  • #34
    tweedledee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 435 ✭✭tweedledee


    Dont send anything!!!!!!The people who need it will not get any of it.Its controlled 100% by several different fighting factions.Foreign aid is like gold in east Africa.


  • #35
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    tweedledee wrote: »
    Dont send anything!!!!!!The people who need it will not get any of it.Its controlled 100% by several different fighting factions.Foreign aid is like gold in east Africa.
    Trocaire, Concern, Christian Aid, Unicef ... all fighting factions.
    Who knew?


  • #36
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,409 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    dvpower wrote: »
    What? Turn our back on starving human beings because they're not in our back yard?:eek:

    Where did I say that?

    My issue is with the non stop monetary aid. It is not working. I know aid is needed, money is needed, but with these charities, it's all about money with them. It's been going on for so so long now. What use is it doing? To me it seems nothing more than buisness to these charities. Sure, the CEOs are on
    great wages. It's no different than any other business. They just happen to make money from misery.


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  • #37
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    walshb wrote: »
    Where did I say that?
    corkonion wrote: »
    why should anyone donate anything to Somalia. Its a drought ridden piece of land and providing aid just allows one misarable generation of people exist horribly until the next drought/famine arrives. Mother nature decides.
    walshb wrote: »
    Indeed,
    in·deed   
    [in-deed] Show IPA
    –adverb
    1.
    in fact; in reality; in truth; truly (used for emphasis, to confirm and amplify a previous statement, to indicate a concession or admission, or, interrogatively, to obtain confirmation): Indeed, it did rain as hard as predicted. Did you indeed finish the work?
    .


  • #38
    tweedledee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 435 ✭✭tweedledee


    DV power no need to be soooo smart 'cause you aint got a clue what you are on about.I've actually been to East Africa on several occasions.(not working for a charity).
    The charities you mention don't control what happens on the ground,especially in Somalia and Sudan.They get permission from WHOEVER controls the area,whether its from the military(Government) or faction leaders,or the impotant ,gutless UN.Don't be sooo naive spouting yer uninformed garb from yer couch at home.
    Typical armchair cowboy!!


  • #39
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    tweedledee wrote: »
    DV power no need to be soooo smart 'cause you aint got a clue what you are on about.I've actually been to East Africa on several occasions.(not working for a charity).
    The charities you mention don't control what happens on the ground,especially in Somalia and Sudan.They get permission from WHOEVER controls the area,whether its from the military(Government) or faction leaders,or the impotant ,gutless UN.Don't be sooo naive spouting yer uninformed garb from yer couch at home.
    Typical armchair cowboy!!

    So you stand by your post?
    tweedledee wrote: »
    The people who need it will not get any of it.

    It's just that while sitting on my couch at home, I did see a news report where some of the starving people "The people who need it" were actually getting some aid.


  • #40
    tweedledee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 435 ✭✭tweedledee


    Walshb you are 100% correct.The "Charity" industry is a multi-billion dollar one.True some funds do make their way to the people who need it but most of it disappears into the "charities" banks,salaries,pay-offs,warlords(politians) backpockets etc etc.
    A couple of years ago I was flying to Sudan from the Arabian Gulf on a contract.Sudan was in the middle of a severe drought,in a really bad way it was.
    First class was full of Somali and Sudanese eh, polititians(warlords).Some of them in military uniforms.Business class (where I was) had over 25 "aid workers" from France and Ireland.Their bosses,3 of them,were in First Class!!!!!!!!Yup,FIRST CLASS!!!!!!!!
    I flew alot around Africa and learned most Agencies flew their staff in Premium Cabins,which is VERY expensive.
    Most flights into Addis in Ethiopia are full in First/Business and quite empty in Economy,where I normally sit.Go figure!!!:(


  • #41
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    tweedledee wrote: »
    The people who need it will not get any of it.

    tweedledee wrote: »
    True some funds do make their way to the people who need it

    What a turnaround!!! Did I miss some breaking news overnight?

    tweedledee wrote: »
    .Don't be sooo naive spouting yer uninformed garb from yer couch at home.

    Typical armchair cowboy!!
    Quite


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  • #42
    tweedledee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 435 ✭✭tweedledee


    God you are sooo naive young man/woman.You havn't a clue.
    Of course some of the aid gets through.About 10% of it gets to who needs it!!!
    Approx 90% of the cash funds DO NOT!!!
    Even in IRAQ,(ohh yeah bin there also),BILLIONS of dollars in "aid" has gone missing,no sign of it.Even some of the charities over there don't know where it is??????Just gone!!
    Aid agencies insist that the TV crews report as much as possible to show the good stuff,so naive you and yer naive friends give more cash to God knows who to give to whoever they like,even themselves.
    Go to Kenya and have a look at the huge villas and vast 5* compounds that house the Government there.Visit the 4* International Hotels(private compounds) where the aid workers stay.
    Visit the bars in these hotels and mingle with said Aid workers as they get drunk on expensive Brandies and Wines,all paid for by,,,,,,,,,,,,,YOU!!!!!!:)


  • #43
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    tweedledee wrote: »
    Approx 90% of the cash funds DO NOT!!!
    In the space of 12 hours we've gone from 0% getting through to 10%.
    At this rate, by thursday afternoon the problem will be solved.:rolleyes:


  • #44
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Probably better in another thread, but I've serious doubts as to whether our charity money does anything to help, and it may indeed be hindering development in these countries. Look at what social welfare has done on our own doorstep - created a class of useless scobes who live their whole lives as ignorant, criminal parasites. The comparison with whole countries may or may not hold much water, but it's pretty clear that countries can make themselves wealthy with no aid at all (e.g. Japan) and that countries can receive aid for decades and still be in the toilet (e.g. Somalia).


  • #45
    tweedledee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 435 ✭✭tweedledee


    Social welfare states and Aid led states are in trouble because of corruption,lots of it.Sad but true.
    Most wealthy European States regard the Irish as the Africans of Europe!!!!:mad:


  • #46
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    tweedledee wrote: »
    God you are sooo naive young man/woman.You havn't a clue.
    Of course some of the aid gets through.About 10% of it gets to who needs it!!!
    Approx 90% of the cash funds DO NOT!!!
    Even in IRAQ,(ohh yeah bin there also),BILLIONS of dollars in "aid" has gone missing,no sign of it.Even some of the charities over there don't know where it is??????Just gone!!
    Aid agencies insist that the TV crews report as much as possible to show the good stuff,so naive you and yer naive friends give more cash to God knows who to give to whoever they like,even themselves.
    Go to Kenya and have a look at the huge villas and vast 5* compounds that house the Government there.Visit the 4* International Hotels(private compounds) where the aid workers stay.
    Visit the bars in these hotels and mingle with said Aid workers as they get drunk on expensive Brandies and Wines,all paid for by,,,,,,,,,,,,,YOU!!!!!!:)

    I have always suspected there was an element of this in 'Aid Work'....so which former Aid workers are going to do the 'right' thing and expose this? HAS TO BE DONE, no excuses.


  • #47
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    which former Aid workers are going to do the 'right' thing and expose this? HAS TO BE DONE, no excuses.

    Unless, of course, it's a load of made-up codswallop to make callous people feel better about their miserly treatment of starving children.


  • #48
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Unless, of course, it's a load of made-up codswallop to make callous people feel better about their miserly treatment of starving children.
    Or a realisation that what we had been doing to try to help is only making things worse.


  • #49
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    Look at what social welfare has done on our own doorstep - created a class of useless scobes who live their whole lives as ignorant, criminal parasites.
    That and providing people with some basic income when they fall on hard times.

    We have a very high percentage of our population who rely either wholly or partially on social welfare, and a very low percentage of these are 'ignorant, criminal parasites'.

    Same with aid; we help millions of people with the aid we give, often life preserving humanitarian aid, but some of it finds it way into the hands of corrupt individuals and it may in a small way contribute towards a dependency culture.

    But no reasonable person would seriously advocate immediately removing all social welfare payments, just because some 'useless scobes' get it and no reasonable person should seriously advocate cutting off live saving food aid to people who are starving to death.


  • #50
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    dvpower wrote: »
    That and providing people with some basic income when they fall on hard times.
    Indeed, but some people appear to have 'fallen on hard times' long before they were born - several generations back.
    dvpower wrote: »
    We have a very high percentage of our population who rely either wholly or partially on social welfare, and a very low percentage of these are 'ignorant, criminal parasites'.
    Yes, in the midst of a depression lots of genuine people are on the dole. During the bubble there were still huge numbers of people who never worked and never intended to work - these are the people I'm thinking of. Social welfare hasn't helped them in the long run, and it hasn't helped the society they live in.
    dvpower wrote: »
    Same with aid; we help millions of people with the aid we give, often life preserving humanitarian aid, but some of it finds it way into the hands of corrupt individuals and it may in a small way contribute towards a dependency culture.
    I'm not so sure. I can't think of any - shall we say - 'endemically poor' country that has been in receipt of charity aid that has got its act together and become a successful state (which is not to say that none exist). I can certainly think of examples where countries have developed themselves without our 'help'.
    dvpower wrote: »
    But no reasonable person would seriously advocate immediately removing all social welfare payments, just because some 'useless scobes' get it and no reasonable person should seriously advocate cutting off live saving food aid to people who are starving to death.
    No, but I think a reasonable person would actually raise the question as to whether we are going about things the right way when we see the unintentional mess that this aid sometimes seems to cause.


  • #51
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    Indeed, but some people appear to have 'fallen on hard times' long before they were born - several generations back.

    Yes, in the midst of a depression lots of genuine people are on the dole. During the bubble there were still huge numbers of people who never worked and never intended to work - these are the people I'm thinking of. Social welfare hasn't helped them in the long run, and it hasn't helped the society they live in.
    So, we agree; some social welfare is good and some is bad. What we need to do is better design the system so we don;t incentivise the feckless, while providing a safety net for others.
    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    I'm not so sure. I can't think of any - shall we say - 'endemically poor' country that has been in receipt of charity aid that has got its act together and become a successful state (which is not to say that none exist). I can certainly think of examples where countries have developed themselves without our 'help'.
    We need to be able to differentiate between short term emergency humanitarian aid (like we need in Somalia right now), longer term development aid and the very long term partnerships that the likes of Irish Aid are involved in.

    There is an acute emergency in Somalia right now. It would be callous in the extreme to suggest that we should withhold aid because there are some structural problems with some aid programs.
    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    No, but I think a reasonable person would actually raise the question as to whether we are going about things the right way when we see the unintentional mess that this aid sometimes seems to cause.
    I've no argument there.

    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    [...] I've serious doubts as to whether our charity money does anything to help [...]
    I'm glad to see that you've stepped back from this position. We should continue to give humanitarian aid to starving individuals, because it does do something to help; it saves their lives.


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  • #52
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    dvpower wrote: »
    I'm glad to see that you've stepped back from this position. We should continue to give humanitarian aid to starving individuals, because it does do something to help; it saves their lives.
    It seems we are mostly in agreement, but I haven't stepped back from that position. The quote that you snipped was about charity aiding development in these countries, not whether emergency relief is necessary.


  • #53
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,409 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    We do give money to the 3rd world. Almost 1 Billion per year; so why are the charities non stop begging and begging? Where does it end? How much is enough with these people? And, it's not just one charity, every so often another one pops up, sprouts legs and starts the begging. And Africa is still no better off. All this aid, money and charities, and still the same record is being played. The famous line, "Unprecedented." They don't know the meaning of the word. Also, Africa is not the only place that these charities are popping up to "save." We have charities here trying to save China, ****ing China.

    http://www.irishaid.gov.ie/countries.asp

    Vietnam? South Africa? You're having a laugh.

    And this country owes its bollox off...


  • #54
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    walshb wrote: »
    And Africa is still no better off.

    This isn't true at all, the proportion of people in poverty in Africa is shrinking all the time, google the 2015 goals to see reports on progress.


  • #55
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    This isn't true at all, the proportion of people in poverty in Africa is shrinking all the time, google the 2015 goals to see reports on progress.
    Any chance of a link please? :)


  • #56
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,409 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    This isn't true at all, the proportion of people in poverty in Africa is shrinking all the time, google the 2015 goals to see reports on progress.

    Jeez, the charities won't like this; what happens when poverty disappears? How will they make money?

    So, going by the goals, I'll be long gone before poverty (extreme poverty) is eradicated...


  • #57
    richardjjd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 524 ✭✭✭richardjjd


    tweedledee wrote: »
    Business class (where I was) had over 25 "aid workers" from France and Ireland.Their bosses,3 of them,were in First Class!!!!!!!!Yup,FIRST CLASS!!!!!!!!

    Name the agencies. Otherwise, you're tarring all organizations - most of which are genuine and effective - with the same brush (link).


  • #58
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    richardjjd wrote: »
    Name the agencies. Otherwise, you're tarring all organizations - most of which are genuine and effective - with the same brush (link).
    consider: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=67745573


  • #59
    yammycat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 445 ✭✭yammycat


    dvpower wrote: »
    So, we agree; some social welfare is good and some is bad. What we need to do is better design the system so we don;t incentivise the feckless, while providing a safety net for others.

    There isn't a problem with social welfare, yes a few people will opt to live off it and never work but they are in the vast minority, most people want to prosper, find good employment and look after their family.

    I would take another million useless scobes on the dole before I'd take another bunch of rich bankers borrowing multiple billions and putting us in crippling debt, it would be a lot cheaper for the hard working middle class, a lot cheaper.

    Get over it , I'd imagine you do not enjoy your job and hence the bitterness for those who opt not to work, if thats the case find a job you like.


  • #60
    richardjjd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 524 ✭✭✭richardjjd


    Overheal wrote: »
    consider: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=67745573

    I think there's a difference. I'm not asking anyone to breach confidentiality (no matter how honourable the motivation - and Noel Warrick was, if anything, extremely honorable), but to name the agency (-ies) that allows its staff to travel business-class and its management to travel first-class. Those costs are borne by funders (the public or institutions). Tweedledee saw this happen and I think its reasonable s/he names them - s/he obviously recognizes who was involved.


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  • #61
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    yammycat wrote: »
    Get over it , I'd imagine you do not enjoy your job and hence the bitterness for those who opt not to work, if thats the case find a job you like.
    Your imagination is impressive.


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