Breaking news in the IWC

drayme

Dave Meltzer has given Punk-Cena *****

Cena has had a five star match ladies and gents.

Lord TSC

Well deserved tbqh...

CMpunked

Fcuk meltzer. I dont need him to confirm something I already knew.
That's some breaking news! :P

gimmick

No surprises really. Had everything needed for the 5 snowflakes.

rossie1977

first wwe/f match to achieve that honour since taker/hbk hiac way back in 1997

have to say a few matches since then have deserved 5 stars though

gimmick

The only others WWE since 1997, in my mind, which should have gotten the 5 stars is HBK Vs HHH last man standing at the Royal Rumble 2003 and Rock Austin WM17.

rossie1977

gimmick wrote: »

The only others WWE since 1997, in my mind, which should have gotten the 5 stars is HBK Vs HHH last man standing at the Royal Rumble 2003 and Rock Austin WM17.

hbk vs taker at mania25 and triple threat at mania 20 were 5 stars imo

gimmick

I thought of those as well, but I wouldn't go all out for them.

There was something about the triple threat which seemed laboured and it was still more about HHH and HBK than Benoit. Great match and I love it, just not 5 stars for me.

HBK Taker again was brilliant, but it was more of a "challenge/special attraction" that a great blow off to a feud, therefore, for me, lacked an intensity which is needed for the 5 stars.

Vince135792003

gimmick wrote: »

in my mind, which should have gotten the 5 stars is HBK Vs HHH last man standing at the Royal Rumble 2003 .

I was never a big fan of that match. I really loved their Summerslam match.

Dave Meltzers article on the match was enjoyable making paralells between Punk and Pillman.

As for star ratings, I do respect Meltzers opinion and have often used his ratings as a way of checking out old matches that I haven't seen from the past.

As regards modern day matches, everyone is entitled to their opinion and Meltzer is just giving his.

rovert

Credit: DVDR board

Only five WWF/E matches were rated as ***** by Meltzer:

Razor Ramon vs. Shawn Michaels, WrestleMania X
Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart, SummerSlam 1994
Bret Hart vs. Stone Cold Steve Austin, WrestleMania 13
Shawn Michaels vs. The Undertaker, In Your House 18: Badd Blood
John Cena vs. CM Punk, Money in the Bank 2011

If anyone's interested Wade Keller and James Caldwell gave Cena/Punk *****, Bryan Alvarez gave it ****3/4.

People rip into Dave for the Summerslam 1994 match (rightfully :pac:). He thought Owen and Bret having a dramatic Cage match when WWF banned blood was ***** worthy.

Cant wait to read the various meltdowns online on the various forums tonight.

MELTZER ISNT THE GOSPEL ARGH!!! etc :P

Vince135792003 wrote: »

I was never a big fan of that match.

Dave Meltzers article on the match was enjoyable making paralells between Punk and Pillman.

As for star ratings, I do respect Meltzers opinion and have often used his ratings as a way of checking out old matches that I haven't seen from the past.

As regards modern day matches, everyone is entitled to their opinion and Meltzer is just giving his.

Yeah it is just a reference point that's all.

Rjd2

Wait, Drayme isn't Rovert?????:eek::o:eek:p

rovert

Rjd2 wrote: »

Wait, Drayme isn't Rovert?????:eek::o:eek:p

Im Laura Samson

CMpunked

Holy F***!

jaykhunter

As much as i loved the MITB main-event, if that's 5* then surely Rock/Hogan @ WMX8 is also 5 stars. Or is it because the crowd were smarking out rather than a nostalgia divide? Like it was a fantastic emotional match - one of the best ever, but c'mon it had a lot of sloppy points/obvious having a chat moments; what i mean is that 5* means it has absolutely no room for improvement! Also Cena/RVD i'd give the same rating.

Cherry_Cola

I think this thread is more about the Rovert reveal than the match :pac:

Vince135792003

jaykhunter wrote: »

As much as i loved the MITB main-event, if that's 5* then surely Rock/Hogan @ WMX8 is also 5 stars. .

The Cena/Punk match wasn't perfect in terms of hitting all the moves but there were alot more things that looked weak in the Hogan/Rock match. Plus it was obviously not as athletic, the build up was hit and miss and it didn't have the ending I wanted to see. I still like the match but I like it less each time I watch it.

I don't do ratings but the Punk/Cena match was great because of the build up and storyline, the crowd and the way they ended the match.

The match itself was a long, compelling one that wasn't move for move perfect but it didn't take away my enjoyment at all from it, although I can see why it might for others.

The only thing that took away my enjoyment was the commentary. Jerry Lawler is the only 1 I can tolerate.

grames_bond

He's BAAAAAAACK!! :eek:

rossie1977

jaykhunter wrote: »

As much as i loved the MITB main-event, if that's 5* then surely Rock/Hogan @ WMX8 is also 5 stars. Or is it because the crowd were smarking out rather than a nostalgia divide? Like it was a fantastic emotional match - one of the best ever, but c'mon it had a lot of sloppy points/obvious having a chat moments; what i mean is that 5* means it has absolutely no room for improvement! Also Cena/RVD i'd give the same rating.

the amount of subplots and themes leading into punk and cena made it better overall (punks last night, cena getting fired, vinces involvement), also it was for the title, a title we have been told is pretty much meaningless last couple of years, but the punk and cena match made it meaningful and more for that one night, there was also the home town factor coupled with the fact that p]nk made cenas hometown turn on him week previous, there was the underdog factor, the common man going in against the corporate juggernaut

in terms of overall storyline, build and indeed in-ring cena and punk is far superior to either rock/hogan or cena/rvd, at least for me anyway

i don't agree either that if a match is voted 5 stars that means there is no room for improvement, no match is perfect, in fact the perfect match will never happen

2ndcoming

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNgxyL5zEAk

thebostoncrab

What gives this match over other debateable efforts like Hogan/Rock or Taker/HBK I is that noone knew before how the match would end. The others I enjoyed but honestly you knew how it would end, thus taking a small bit away from them.

Benoit/Angle from Royal Rumble however deserved the full five stars.

Diabhal Beag

Glad Meltzer has seen sense.


WELCOME BACK ROVEY!!!!!!!!!!!!

GTR63

I genuinely thought that Smackdowns MITB match was the best match on the show it didn't have the heat of the Main Event but the Corre couldn't even get the crickets excited.

flahavaj

CM Punk vs John Cena = ****1/4

Drayme unmasking to reveal rovert = *****. Worked the audience beautifully and timed the big pay off to perfection.

Bounty Hunter

Punk/Cena does equal 5* for me but I can understand why it wont for others. Some think 5*'s = perfect or 100% but even if you think in those terms its not like you see 4 and 4/5* matches for example so you gotta think that 5* matches are usually rounded up to 5*

There were some non perfect aspects of the match from a purely wrestling/athletic standpoint but from a PW point of view it was perfrect imo because as many said at the time it is an example of why we are all PW fans. It was one of those moments we wait for and keep watching in the hope of. Professional Wrestling is far more than just what happens in the ring and that match had everything else from the awesome storyline and antics of CM Punk to the awesome crowd or the suggested swerves (MITB/Screwjob) which kept us on the edge of our seats throughout.

starviewadams

Metzler's a tool,as is that Maffew guy who does Botchomania.

Have been ****loads of 5star matches since 97,the fact that Metzler thinks that there haven't been confirms his tooldom.

Off the top of my head I'd call these 5 stars:

HHH v Rock-Backlash 2000
Rock v Austin-Mania-17
Angle v Austin-Unforgiven 01
Rock v Hogan-Mania 18
HHH v HBK- Summerslam 02
Rock v Brock- Summerslam 02
Edge/Mysterio v Chavo/Eddie v Angle/Benoit -No Mercy 02
Benoit v Angle -Royal Rumble 03

rossie1977

starviewadams wrote: »

Metzler's a tool,as is that Maffew guy who does Botchomania.

Have been ****loads of 5star matches since 97,the fact that Metzler thinks that there haven't been confirms his tooldom.

Off the top of my head I'd call these 5 stars:

HHH v Rock-Backlash 2000
Rock v Austin-Mania-17
Angle v Austin-Unforgiven 01
Rock v Hogan-Mania 18
HHH v HBK- Summerslam 02
Rock v Brock- Summerslam 02
Edge/Mysterio v Chavo/Eddie v Angle/Benoit -No Mercy 02
Benoit v Angle -Royal Rumble 03

really?? i was ringside at summerslam 2002 and while the crowd reaction was great for that brock and rock match, hbk and hhh was match of the night followed by angle and mysterio

rovert

starviewadams wrote: »

Metzler's a tool,as is that Maffew guy who does Botchomania.

Who else do you want to randomly call out? Scott Keith he is a bit of a dick.

starviewadams

rossie1977 wrote: »

really?? i was ringside at summerslam 2002 and while the crowd reaction was great for that brock and rock match, hbk and hhh was match of the night followed by angle and mysterio

I thought the whole build up to it and the match itself had an almost real sport feel to it,which put it over the top for me anyways.

gimmick

As mentioned, the who 5 star thing is completely down to the opinion of the watcher.

For example, the Samoa Joe Vs Brian Danielson match from ROH Fight Of The Century in 2006 to me is an easy call. 5 all the way. Pro wrestling perfection.

On the other side of it Samoa Joe Vs Kenta Kobashi has been called a 5 star effort, and while I enjoyed it immensely, it was not a 5 star match.

It depends on your tastes and how you view a storyline/angle.

The only people who are wrong are those who would put a New Jack match as a 5 star. Which we all know is impossible.

GTR63

starviewadams wrote: »

Metzler's a tool,as is that Maffew guy who does Botchomania.

Have been ****loads of 5star matches since 97,the fact that Metzler thinks that there haven't been confirms his tooldom.

Off the top of my head I'd call these 5 stars:

HHH v Rock-Backlash 2000
Rock v Austin-Mania-17
Angle v Austin-Unforgiven 01
Rock v Hogan-Mania 18
HHH v HBK- Summerslam 02
Rock v Brock- Summerslam 02
Edge/Mysterio v Chavo/Eddie v Angle/Benoit -No Mercy 02
Benoit v Angle -Royal Rumble 03

tbh starvie who cares who he gives 5* matches to Meltzer is just a guy who writes for dirtsheets its not as if his opinion matters.

Lord TSC

As I see it, I guess the star rating depends on if you add up all the positives, hit the max of five stars, and THEN discuss the negatives in which case you subtract from the rating. For me though, weighing up the pros and cons at the same time, the pros WAY out weight the cons and the cons just dont take away enough to warrent anything less than five stars...

GTR63

Did he not give the 1st Taker vs Hbk Mania match 5* I honestly can't get that from a wrestling perspective that was give me a cigarette stuff.

MitchKoobski

starviewadams wrote: »

Metzler's a tool,as is that Maffew guy who does Botchomania.

Meltzer I'm 50/50 on, but what have you got against Maffew!?:eek:

starviewadams

GTR63 wrote: »

Did he not give the 1st Taker vs Hbk Mania match 5* I honestly can't get that from a wrestling perspective that was give me a cigarette stuff.

Think he gave their first one 4 and 3/4 or something ridiculous like that.

The fact that there's only 5 WWF/E matches on there but 3 ROH matches in a comparitively short space of time shows he's clearly biased against WWE.

Punk v Joe is fair enough,but the Kobashi v Joe chopfest and the 6 man spot/gymnastic fest are just stupidly not 5 stars.

Metzler clearly must rate the matches on whichever promotion feeds him the most backstage gossip or whoever advertises with him the most.

rovert

GTR63 wrote: »

tbh starvie who cares who he gives 5* matches to Meltzer is just a guy who writes for dirtsheets its not as if his opinion matters.

In fairness he the most respected and widely read writer on Pro Wrestling. Not many online have discussed Wade Keller's ***** rating even though he gave it the night of the match. This has been done to death but wrestlers and promoters DO care about his opinion and there is tonnes of evidence to back that up.

But yeah it is all subjective.

GTR63

starviewadams wrote: »

Think he gave their first one 4 and 3/4 or something ridiculous like that.

4 & 3/4 how did it lose the 1/4,i'm not even going to think about it.Its like when a film or a game gets a 77% rating,why does it have to be exactly that why not 76 or 78.

rovert

GTR63 wrote: »

4 & 3/4 how did it lose the 1/4,i'm not even going to think about it.Its like when a film or a game gets a 77% rating,why does it have to be exactly that why not 76 or 78.

He had a very long explanation on his podcast the Tuesday after.

Badly recapping here but the amount of dead spots hurt it and there wasn't anything really special (unique) about it.

starviewadams wrote: »

Metzler clearly must rate the matches on whichever promotion feeds him the most backstage gossip or whoever advertises with him the most.

Oh dear.

MitchKoobski

A lot of wrestlers still support Meltzer and value his opinions, given that he's one of a small few wrestling journalists still hanging around from the days of the dirstsheets.

Rjd2

rovert wrote: »

This has been done to death but wrestlers and promoters DO care about his opinion and there is tonnes of evidence to back that up.

Mick Foley for one.

rossie1977

rovert wrote: »

He had a very long explanation on his podcast the Tuesday after.

Badly recapping here but the amount of dead spots hurt it and there wasn't anything really special (unique) about it..

like i said before i thought it was 5 stars but i can see why others wouldn't and the bolded bit is why, edge and taker had a very very similiar match to it 12 months previous at mania24, michaels brought more flair, flash, athleticism and sheer wow factor to the match that edge simply doesn't possess in his arsenal but both matches and indeed hbk/taker 2 were laid out almost the same

rovert

Rjd2 wrote: »

Mick Foley for one.

But not Punk. He and Samoa Joe both shrugged in their joint shoot interview when Gabe brought up that one of their matches was rated *****.

I have to agree with starviewadams on the ROH Dragon Gate Six Man has there has been better matches DG six mans before and after. But the reason why Meltzer thought it was the full 5 from my memory was the novelty of this then ground breaking style hitting the US from the first time having a great match in front of a great and receptive crowd.

flahavaj

I care quite a lot what Meltzer thinks tbh, I value his opinion over most. He is possibly the most prolific sports journalist i history really and by far the kmost reliable and respected wrestling writer ever. One of my first thoughts on Sunday after the PPV was "I wonder will Meltzer give this 5 stars." I heartily disagree with many of the things he says and his has a definite bias towards certain workers etc. But from a historical perspective, him giving this, or any match these days the full 5 stars is quite a significant landmark, and definitely worthy of discussion.

Of course everone is entitled to make their minds up about the match and its a totally subjective thing.

Lord TSC

Actually, I just realise the worst part about this. When Punk comes back,we're likely going to get 6 months straight of him vs Cena, just non-stop...

jaykhunter

MitchKoobski wrote: »

Meltzer I'm 50/50 on, but what have you got against Maffew!?:eek:

he has some really bítchy comments on his twitter. In general he has a valid point, but it's wrapped in a bit of an internet warrior lol. I'm probably nit picking lol.

Nothing against Meltzer at all, he's a little dry i guess; i suppose whenever i hear him he has very little information though; which is why i'd be listening to him. and he does say "you know" far more than I do lol

CMpunked

jaykhunter wrote: »

he has some really bítchy comments on his twitter. In general he has a valid point, but it's wrapped in a bit of an internet warrior lol. I'm probably nit picking lol.

I agree.
I love the botchamania videos, they're brilliant.
But maffew has a massive ego since he was asked to do podcasts/appear at fan events and that. I once left a comment on something that he posted on Facebook. Something about Samoa Joe. He called me out as being a muppet and then a load of other commenters joined in. I noticed he kept doing it a lot with opinions he didn't agree with, belittling the person.

MitchKoobski

CMpunked wrote: »

I agree.
I love the botchamania videos, they're brilliant.
But maffew has a massive ego since he was asked to do podcasts/appear at fan events and that. I once left a comment on something that he posted on Facebook. Something about Samoa Joe. He called me out as being a muppet and then a load of other commenters joined in. I noticed he kept doing it a lot with opinions he didn't agree with, belittling the person.

Yew muppeh!

/runs

rovert

Meltzer's match report was weird it was like a review of Smackdown or something with him giving out about/correcting the commentary, giving no indication that he was about to give it *****. All it had was the money shot of:

This was more than just a great match, but a career making moment. *****

CMpunked

rovert wrote: »

Meltzer's match report was weird it was like a review of Smackdown or something with him giving out about/correcting the commentary, giving no indication that he was about to give it *****. All it had was the money shot of:

Maybe he was writing his report while watching it, because it wasn't until the ppv went off air that it sunk in as to how epic it was.

Vince135792003

GTR63 wrote: »

tbh starvie who cares who he gives 5* matches to Meltzer is just a guy who writes for dirtsheets its not as if his opinion matters.

I respect what Meltzer has to say. Disregarding matters of opinion, he's extremely informative and have enjoyed reading his newsletter and listening to him for the last 10 years.

The term dirt sheet is a bit outdated and incorrect at this stage too. The newsletter has evolved over the years and if you opened up a random newsletter, chances are you'll first spot an obituary or an analytical piece on WWE's rather than anything else.

rovert

Vince135792003 wrote: »

The term dirt sheet is a bit outdated and incorrect at this stage too. The newsletter has evolved over the years and is alot more analytical.

This isnt in reference to GTR63 as I dont know him.

Younger fans online from my experience have reclaimed the term and use to describe F4W/WON/Torch AND cut & paste sites. I dont think they understand the origin or meaning of the word. Kinda head wrecking.

GTR63

Vince135792003 wrote: »

The term dirt sheet is a bit outdated and incorrect at this stage too. The newsletter has evolved over the years and if you opened up a random newsletter, chances are you'll first spot an obituary or an analytical piece on WWE's rather than anything else.

Sorry for using the term dirtsheet instead of newsletter but what I was trying to say was that I don't think every fan should have to agree with Meltzers opinion & hang on his every word as if its Gospel.