Can someone explain some computer basics to me?

VonLuck

There are some basics about computers I really should know, especially since I've built a couple PC's in my time. What I want to know is - how does each component affect your PC? Its hard to explain what I mean without sounding like a moron!

I will try to explain in computer games terms, really because thats the only reason why I buy new components! Say if I upgrade my CPU, will that improve my FPS and if so, why? Does the same apply with the GPU? I think I get confused with the relationship between the CPU and the GPU.

The same with RAM and your HDD. If upgraded to an SSD instead of a standard hard drive, would I notice that in games? Would games load faster? And what part does RAM play in all this? Is it that once the hard drive has loaded all the files need, your RAM is required to access it quickly? Does that affect FPS?

Finally, the motherboard. I have no idea what a top of the range motherboard would do differently than if I had a bog standard one. The motherboard is needed so that all your components can 'communicate' with each other, right? But are there different levels of improved 'communication'? Can a cheap mobo cause your PC to be slow?

From time to time I feel the need to upgrade parts, but dont know which! If my game is running slow I dont know wheter its due to my CPU, GPU, RAM, HDD, motherboard or all of the above!

I hope I've made some sort of sense in all this rambling and that you are able to provide me with some answers! Thanks in advance.

Deano12345

Hey

1. Upgrading your CPU will most of the time lead to an increase in FPS due to the newer chips being more powerful at the same speeds often (Compare say something like my C2Q, to a Sandy Bridge chip, at the same speed, the SB chip will smoke it) the increase in FPS comes from the fact that the faster processor is able to do the calculations quicker, and provided you aren't bottleknecking your graphics card, increase your FPS.

About the graphics cards, simply put, a more powerful graphics card will increase FPS. A more powerful card is better able to handle high settings with less work. However a slow CPU not allow a graphics card to preform to its full potential. For example, my old processor (E2200) would cause my FPS to drop by a large amount over my current chip, even if I keep the same graphics card.

TL ; DR : Both the CPU and GPU should be relatively matched to avoid one slowing the other down

2. Upgrading to an SSD, you would notice a small difference in games, ive upgraded recently to an SSD and I can say theres not a huge difference in the games I play (Dirt 3, F1 2010 etc) but if you play any MMO's, you may see a larger difference.

RAM would generally be used for things like textures, you will see increases up to 4GB in most games, but any more and you wont notice a difference at all.

3. Top of the line motherboards have top of the line features like multiple graphics cards support and the power they can provide to these components whereas a cheaper board would be void of these features. A cheap motherboard wouldnt cause a computer to run slow, but it would very much limit you in terms of overclocking.

If you've any questions on my wall of text, feel free to ask

Serephucus

To add to Deano's post:

1. Yes, it's true, CPUs will increase your framerate if they were struggling in the first place. Most games (with the exception of a few. GTA IV being an example), need more GPU power than CPU. If a CPU is used to 80% capacity, buying a faster one so that only 50% is used isn't going to do much. Deano's point about architectural improvements is valid though, I'm saying that if you bought a 2.0GHz Core 2 Quad, and (assuming it wasn't a bottleneck) upgraded to a 2.4GHz Core 2 Quad, you wouldn't see a difference.

This is true up to a point though. If you have a dual core powering SLI GTX 580s, you're going to see a bottleneck. The cards are going to be pushing so much data that the CPU can't keep up. Mostly though, this doesn't really happen. The 2500K for example won't be bottlenecking a 580, and not even SLI 580s with a mild overclock.

2. SSDs won't do much in games except cut your loading times down quite a lot. As regards actual framerates, you shouldn't see a difference really. Where they really help are bootup, shutdown, and loading times.

With regards to RAM, it's really only a quantity thing. As long as you don't bottom-of-the-barrel value stuff, you're pretty much getting the most that you can out of it. You can get very high-end 2000MHz DDR3 if you like, and you might see a 3-4% increase, but for the money you pay, it's really not worth it. Better to spend you money on some 1600HMz good quality, reliable memory. This helps when it comes to OCing stability.

3. As Deano said, high-end motherboards come with extra features: on-the-fly overclocking, voltage read points, LN2 modes... I picked a slightly higher motherboard for my build (Gigabyte UD5 rather than the UD3R) because of the better heatsinks, for instance.

RE: upgrading for games. It depends on a lot. Your current setup, the games you play, the resolution you play at, if you use AA, how much noise you can put up with, how much power you've got, etc. Most of the time though, odds are a better graphics card will help, but that's not always the case.

VonLuck

Deano12345 wrote: »

1. Upgrading your CPU will most of the time lead to an increase in FPS due to the newer chips being more powerful at the same speeds often (Compare say something like my C2Q, to a Sandy Bridge chip, at the same speed, the SB chip will smoke it) the increase in FPS comes from the fact that the faster processor is able to do the calculations quicker, and provided you aren't bottleknecking your graphics card, increase your FPS.

How can the newer chips have the same speed but be more powerful? This is surely very confusing for you're average person wanting to buy a CPU. I have a 2.4Ghz Q6600 and if I bought a new 2.4Ghz CPU it would be better?

Also, what is bottlenecking?

Deano12345 wrote: »

Both the CPU and GPU should be relatively matched to avoid one slowing the other down

How exactly do you match them without having to ask an expert? Is there some recommended correlation in speed or something between them?

Deano12345 wrote: »

RAM would generally be used for things like textures, you will see increases up to 4GB in most games, but any more and you wont notice a difference at all.

Well I have 4GB at the moment so buying more would be pointless?

Deano12345 wrote: »

3. Top of the line motherboards have top of the line features like multiple graphics cards support and the power they can provide to these components whereas a cheaper board would be void of these features. A cheap motherboard wouldnt cause a computer to run slow, but it would very much limit you in terms of overclocking.

So simply put, you need a top of the line motherboard for overclocking and extra features like multiple graphics cards?

Serephucus wrote: »

1. Yes, it's true, CPUs will increase your framerate if they were struggling in the first place. Most games (with the exception of a few. GTA IV being an example), need more GPU power than CPU. If a CPU is used to 80% capacity, buying a faster one so that only 50% is used isn't going to do much. Deano's point about architectural improvements is valid though, I'm saying that if you bought a 2.0GHz Core 2 Quad, and (assuming it wasn't a bottleneck) upgraded to a 2.4GHz Core 2 Quad, you wouldn't see a difference.

Is there a way of telling wheter its your CPU or GPU which is being strained? And once again, bottleneck?

Thanks

Serephucus

VonLuck wrote: »

How can the newer chips have the same speed but be more powerful? This is surely very confusing for you're average person wanting to buy a CPU. I have a 2.4Ghz Q6600 and if I bought a new 2.4Ghz CPU it would be better?

Newer architectures. The more you do something, the better you get at it. It just means that Intel/AMD find ways for their processors to do the same things a little faster, by tweaking the design of the chips.

VonLuck wrote: »

Also, what is bottlenecking?

If I had a computer with a Q6600, a GTX 460, Win7 Ultimate, and 128MB of RAM, the RAM would be the bottleneck. It's if one component can't keep up with another. Sometimes this doesn't matter (HDDs can be a bottleneck with a lot of things, but this only means longer loading times) but sometimes, as with GPUs and CPUs, this can make a big difference.

VonLuck wrote: »

How exactly do you match them without having to ask an expert? Is there some recommended correlation in speed or something between them?

Unfortunately... no. You just have to make a best guess, or post here.

VonLuck wrote: »

Well I have 4GB at the moment so buying more would be pointless?

If it's just for gaming, then yes. If you're doing a lot of 3D modelling or auido/video conversions, then more might benefit you.

VonLuck wrote: »

So simply put, you need a top of the line motherboard for overclocking and extra features like multiple graphics cards?

Not always. Sometimes even low-end motherboards will come with Crossfire support (sometimes not SLI, as that requires giving money to NVIDIA). You don't need a top of the line motherboard for OCing, but if you're going for a heavy overclock, it's one less thing to worry about.

VonLuck wrote: »

Is there a way of telling wheter its your CPU or GPU which is being strained? And once again, bottleneck?

Yes. Do whatever it is you're testing, and have monitoring programs open for your CPU and GPU, if either if them are maxing out, or close to, then that's the one you replace. You can also try under/overclocking components, and see if you get any differences.

VonLuck

Serephucus wrote: »

If I had a computer with a Q6600, a GTX 460, Win7 Ultimate, and 128MB of RAM, the RAM would be the bottleneck. It's if one component can't keep up with another.

Ah I see. Basically the RAM is not allowing the other components reach their potential so to speak. I doubt this is an accurate system, but according to the "Windows Experience Index", my RAM is the weakest component at 5.6, whilst every other component is 5.9. Does that make sense?

Serephucus wrote: »

You can also try under/overclocking components, and see if you get any differences.

I was always tempted to overclock but never want to void warranties. Plus all that extra heat means more fans or faster fans, which means a very loud room! Unless I water cool of course, but I dont have that much cash to spare!

Serephucus

Just to point something out that most people don't realise:

If you're using a third-party cooler with your CPU, you've already voided your warrenty.

I wouldn't bother with WEI, it's really not accurate. And no, the system I mentioned was only as an example to illustrate the point.

Monotype

Having a fast enough CPU/graphics card/RAM - it's like making a cake.

Say each cake needs 100g of flour, 1 egg and 100g of sugar.

1000g of flour + 10 eggs + 1000g of sugar = 10 cakes

But say if you were low on eggs...

1000g of flour + 3 eggs + 1000g of sugar = 3 cakes (excess of flour and sugar)
No matter how much flour or sugar you have, you can still only make 3 cakes - your eggs are the "bottleneck".
You can stretch them out a bit but the best solution is more eggs.

So if CPU/GPU/RAM are not enough, it will hold you back in games. The best solution is to upgrade the weak component.

Games need a strong graphics card because it's all about... well the graphics. Other programs need different "recipes" and the graphics card won't be as important.


...I'm hungry.

Serephucus

Monotype wrote: »

Having a fast enough CPU/ [...] ent "recipes" and the graphics card won't be as important.


...I'm hungry.

That was both very informative, and full of win. :P

VonLuck

Serephucus wrote: »

Just to point something out that most people don't realise:

If you're using a third-party cooler with your CPU, you've already voided your warrenty.

Warranty gone so!

Just out of curiosity, if you had my system, what would you upgrade. Say a budget of €600 for interests sake:

Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Tray, 8192Kb, LGA775, 64bit, Kentsfield
HIS HD 4850, GDDR3 512MB, ATI Radeon HD4850, PCIe
4096MB-Kit GEIL Black Dragon PC2-6400 DDR2-800 CL4
Gigabyte GA-EP35-DS3R ,Intel P35, ATX, PCI-Express
ATX-Netzteil Corsair 620W 620 Watt

I understand a lot of the time if you upgrade one component you may have to change your motherboard?

Serephucus

What games to you play, and at what resolution?

Monotype

If you play a lot of games, the graphics card.
Overclocking would bring up the CPU but it's not slow enough to warrant a complete overhaul.

VonLuck

Serephucus wrote: »

What games to you play, and at what resolution?

Well I plan on getting Deus Ex 3, BF3 and Skyrim so high benchmark I guess! I play at 1650x1080.

Monotype wrote: »

If you play a lot of games, the graphics card.
Overclocking would bring up the CPU but it's not slow enough to warrant a complete overhaul.

Would you recommend any particular card?

Serephucus

6950, and if you have the money left over 2500K+mobo and RAM.

dwighet

Lads after ready this thread Im thinking "im getting an extra 6970 next week and running an I5 760 oced @ 4.2ghz....Will there be a bottle neck with the 2x6970`s or will the I5 be able to handle it??"

Unregistered.

dwighet wrote: »

Lads after ready this thread Im thinking "im getting an extra 6970 next week and running an I5 760 oced @ 4.2ghz....Will there be a bottle neck with the 2x6970`s or will the I5 be able to handle it??"

It depends.... Can you afford to upgrade your mobo and CPU as well the GFX card? :P

VonLuck

Does anyone know a program which will monitor my CPU and GPU load? I tried CPU-Z and GPU-Z but CPU-Z doesnt seem to record the percentage load and GPU-Z recorded a max load of 6%, which seems rediculously low.

I tried the resource monitor for windows and it looked like my cpu was at around 80% load, but I wouldnt mind checking it out with another program, to be sure.

Serephucus

Task Manager, Performance tab for CPU (there's better ones, that's what I use). For GPU-Z, there's an option to continue monitoring in the background which has to be checked. What you recorded was idle usage.

VonLuck

Serephucus wrote: »

6950, and if you have the money left over 2500K+mobo and RAM.

Why do you recommend a new motherboard and more RAM? I thought you only needed a new mobo for some overclocking? And I also thought 4gb was enough RAM?

Serephucus

Your motherboard uses socket 775 and DDR2 RAM. a 2600K uses socket 1155 and DDR3 RAM. For this, they'd have to be replaced. That's the only reason.

dwighet

Unregistered. wrote: »

It depends.... Can you afford to upgrade your mobo and CPU as well the GFX card? :P

no:p
What does it depand on

Unregistered.

dwighet wrote: »

no:p
What does it depand on

Haha. Crosfire is a mischievous beast. And it's benefit is really at the mercy of drivers and the game you're playing. How much CPU utilization is there when you're playing games? That'd be the first step. If you got a second GFX card and saw your CPU hitting 100% then that's a sign of the performance being bottlenecked - the cpu simply can't do any more. And unfortunately, the only upgrade from the i5-750 would require a new mobo and CPU!

dwighet

Unregistered. wrote: »

Haha. Crosfire is a mischievous beast. And it's benefit is really at the mercy of drivers and the game you're playing. How much CPU utilization is there when you're playing games? That'd be the first step. If you got a second GFX card and saw your CPU hitting 100% then that's a sign of the performance being bottlenecked - the cpu simply can't do any more. And unfortunately, the only upgrade from the i5-750 would require a new mobo and CPU!

Im with ya now...
I will check out how much cpu usage metro uses with the current 6970 oced.
Ive never bothered to check that...should be intersesting;)

Serephucus

All that will show you is if your CPU is bottlenecking your card. If it is, well you'll either have to OC it, or get a new one, but if you want to find out if CF is also worth it, you'll want to monitor your GPU usage as well. (Afterburner will do this)

Monotype

dwighet - you said in your other thread that you had your CPU overclocked to 4.2GHz. You do not have to worry about your CPU holding you back whatsoever.

VonLuck - I wouldn't throw out your whole system just yet. The Q6600 is highly overclockable. 3GHz should be easy enough. It is a couple of sockets old but it's still good and enough for many games.

Your money would be best spent on...
A new graphics card (€200-300)
A 64GB SSD (€100)
New CPU cooling (€40?)
... and the rest saved for whatever is available this time next year.

dwighet

Monotype wrote: »

dwighet - you said in your other thread that you had your CPU overclocked to 4.2GHz. You do not have to worry about your CPU holding you back whatsoever.

VonLuck - I wouldn't throw out your whole system just yet. The Q6600 is highly overclockable. 3GHz should be easy enough. It is a couple of sockets old but it's still good and enough for many games.

Your money would be best spent on...
A new graphics card (€200-300)
A 64GB SSD (€100)
New CPU cooling (€40?)
... and the rest saved for whatever is available this time next year.

MONOTYPE to the rescue....Your the man...;)
I have the Ghost busters theme going through my head at the moment:eek:

I was thinking 4.2ghz should be plenty...

Spacedog

dwighet wrote: »

Lads after ready this thread Im thinking "im getting an extra 6970 next week and running an I5 760 oced @ 4.2ghz....Will there be a bottle neck with the 2x6970`s or will the I5 be able to handle it??"

sounds like a solid matchup to me. go for it.

VonLuck

Monotype wrote: »

VonLuck - I wouldn't throw out your whole system just yet. The Q6600 is highly overclockable. 3GHz should be easy enough. It is a couple of sockets old but it's still good and enough for many games.

Your money would be best spent on...
A new graphics card (€200-300)
A 64GB SSD (€100)
New CPU cooling (€40?)
... and the rest saved for whatever is available this time next year.

Regarding overclocking - if its so easy to gain so much extra power from the CPU, why do they only have it clocked at 2.4GHz?

I'm guessing the SSD would only be suitable for booting up?

My current CPU cooler is the Arctic Freezer 7 Pro. I remember hearing great reviews when I purchased it but wonder if it would be up to the job of overclocking? Would it be a good idea to also purchase extra case fans?

Monotype

VonLuck wrote: »

Regarding overclocking - if its so easy to gain so much extra power from the CPU, why do they only have it clocked at 2.4GHz?

They wouldn't make much money from selling higher processors if they advertised it outright.

I'm guessing the SSD would only be suitable for booting up?

Quick access to all the programs installed to it too. General snappiness with the whole OS, in general.

My current CPU cooler is the Arctic Freezer 7 Pro. I remember hearing great reviews when I purchased it but wonder if it would be up to the job of overclocking? Would it be a good idea to also purchase extra case fans?

I think you'd be fine with that up to about 3GHz. How's the general cooling inside the case? You don't need a wind tunnel, but a dell case with one fan isn't enough.

Serephucus

VonLuck wrote: »

Regarding overclocking - if its so easy to gain so much extra power from the CPU, why do they only have it clocked at 2.4GHz?

Because then people wouldn't buy the 3.0GHz chip for twice the price.

That's how Intel does it. They take the same chip, and bring out several different versions, each clocked a little slower than the last, with prices to match.

VonLuck

Well I ran a few different monitoring programs while playing Bad Company 2. First off, with the programs running the entire computer froze, twice, after playing for about 20 minutes. Didnt happen before, which is odd.

The CPU reached about 75-80% of its max according to task manager.

The GPU was at 100% at all times according to GPU-Z.

Using HWMonitor to check temperatures I found that the GPU was running at a max 91 degrees, CPU max 51 degress and system max 39 degrees. I dont know how accurate the system temperature is though?

I have my fans at the lowest speed, basically because they sound like jet engines up high. By the way, is there any way of increasing fan speed without having to physically switch them to 'high' within the case?

Deano12345

VonLuck wrote: »

Well I ran a few different monitoring programs while playing Bad Company 2. First off, with the programs running the entire computer froze, twice, after playing for about 20 minutes. Didnt happen before, which is odd.

The CPU reached about 75-80% of its max according to task manager.

The GPU was at 100% at all times according to GPU-Z.

Using HWMonitor to check temperatures I found that the GPU was running at a max 91 degrees, CPU max 51 degress and system max 39 degrees. I dont know how accurate the system temperature is though?

I have my fans at the lowest speed, basically because they sound like jet engines up high. By the way, is there any way of increasing fan speed without having to physically switch them to 'high' within the case?

Its an approximate value for the system tempretures, they will be there or there abouts (2-3c)

For most GPUs 91 Degrees is way too hot, you can turn the fan up with MSI Afterburner for most graphics cards

VonLuck

Also, does Windows 7 provide any noticable improvements over Vista 64 bit? Dont know wheter to invest in it if it only provides minor tweaks...